Re: 2225 -- Yep, I'm not free
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/10/02 11:42 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
speak for many people.
The Declaration of Independence tells me that when our government creates
unnecessary burdens for us, it is not just our right, but our "Duty" to
change it. Americans are born with rights. Our rights are not bestowed by
governments, they are ours by birth. And governments, in this country, are
created for the purpose of protecting those rights, not to trample them, as
MA does to all homeschoolers.
The Declaration says: "...whenever any form of government becomes
destructive of these Ends [our unalienable rights to life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness], it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish
it, and to institute new government..." Later on, it says...it is their
right, their Duty, to throw off such governments that reduce our rights
under despotism.
The Bryants, as I see it, are trying to answer that call, to begin to change
things for the better, even though they know how simple (but dishonest) it
would be to comply with the bad law. Americans put up with bad government
for a long time, but finally, they had had enough. What say we..? When will
we have had enough of bad laws, of being treated like naughty unruly
ignorant children by people who usually don't know their butt from a
bicycle, but have bad law behind them.
DeWes does what most people do, but at the risk/cost of violating his/her
own convictions of right and wrong, honesty and dishonesty. Is it OK for
homeschoolers to be expected to lie to the state in order to be "approved"
by a clerk? We can't blame DeWes or anyone else, but more importantly, we
should be ashamed of talking about the Bryants as though they are fools for
not following simple, but stupid and coercive and despotic rules. They are
being punished for honestly making their convictions, and their
homeschooling practice known -- even up for ridicule -- by the courts. But
that shows the court's lack of enlightenment, not theirs.
The Bryants are heroes. We need thousands of Bryant families. Unfortunately
there are few such people, but they are the minutemen of homeschooling.
What do we have, if not a few principles? If we stand for nothing, we fall
for anything.
It seems to me that we all owe the Bryants a huge debt of gratitude (and
financial help with legal fees if we can afford to share) for being willing
and courageous enough to try to make things better for us all.
BTW, there's a candidate for Governor of Massachusetts, Carla Howell. Like
me, she's a libertarian and, as you know, the Libertarian Party is 100% in
favor of Homeschooling. I consider myself a friend of hers (I was the LP
candidate for Gov of CT in '98) and I know that she will work to eliminate
any and all restrictions to homeschooling freedoms.
Ned Vare
"If tolerance is your main virtue, you have no others." -- Chesterton
[email protected] wrote:
> Joyce and Ned, I unschool and send into the state what they want to hear andNed bites: Thanks, DeWes. I hope you're not being sarcastic. I think you
> do what I want anyway. Yep, I'm not free. DeWes
speak for many people.
The Declaration of Independence tells me that when our government creates
unnecessary burdens for us, it is not just our right, but our "Duty" to
change it. Americans are born with rights. Our rights are not bestowed by
governments, they are ours by birth. And governments, in this country, are
created for the purpose of protecting those rights, not to trample them, as
MA does to all homeschoolers.
The Declaration says: "...whenever any form of government becomes
destructive of these Ends [our unalienable rights to life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness], it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish
it, and to institute new government..." Later on, it says...it is their
right, their Duty, to throw off such governments that reduce our rights
under despotism.
The Bryants, as I see it, are trying to answer that call, to begin to change
things for the better, even though they know how simple (but dishonest) it
would be to comply with the bad law. Americans put up with bad government
for a long time, but finally, they had had enough. What say we..? When will
we have had enough of bad laws, of being treated like naughty unruly
ignorant children by people who usually don't know their butt from a
bicycle, but have bad law behind them.
DeWes does what most people do, but at the risk/cost of violating his/her
own convictions of right and wrong, honesty and dishonesty. Is it OK for
homeschoolers to be expected to lie to the state in order to be "approved"
by a clerk? We can't blame DeWes or anyone else, but more importantly, we
should be ashamed of talking about the Bryants as though they are fools for
not following simple, but stupid and coercive and despotic rules. They are
being punished for honestly making their convictions, and their
homeschooling practice known -- even up for ridicule -- by the courts. But
that shows the court's lack of enlightenment, not theirs.
The Bryants are heroes. We need thousands of Bryant families. Unfortunately
there are few such people, but they are the minutemen of homeschooling.
What do we have, if not a few principles? If we stand for nothing, we fall
for anything.
It seems to me that we all owe the Bryants a huge debt of gratitude (and
financial help with legal fees if we can afford to share) for being willing
and courageous enough to try to make things better for us all.
BTW, there's a candidate for Governor of Massachusetts, Carla Howell. Like
me, she's a libertarian and, as you know, the Libertarian Party is 100% in
favor of Homeschooling. I consider myself a friend of hers (I was the LP
candidate for Gov of CT in '98) and I know that she will work to eliminate
any and all restrictions to homeschooling freedoms.
Ned Vare
"If tolerance is your main virtue, you have no others." -- Chesterton
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/10/02 10:14:40 PM, nedvare@... writes:
<< When will
we have had enough of bad laws, of being treated like naughty unruly
ignorant children by people who usually don't know their butt from a
bicycle, but have bad law behind them.
You don't answer people's questions when they ask them. You're not really
discussing anything with us, just telling us over and over and over and over
and over the same screeching thing.
Homeschooling laws and policies are summarized in very many places on the
web, at www.unschooling.com, at the NHEN site, probably at HEM's site, A-to-Z
Home's Cool, before even getting into the conservative sites.
If we use an international list to discuss immediate needs of unschoolers, it
will be a great use of an international list. Discussing American
Libertarian "philosophy" is not a good use of an international unschooling
list.
Sandra
Sandra
<< When will
we have had enough of bad laws, of being treated like naughty unruly
ignorant children by people who usually don't know their butt from a
bicycle, but have bad law behind them.
>>Nobody's treated me that way for a long time except you, Ned.
You don't answer people's questions when they ask them. You're not really
discussing anything with us, just telling us over and over and over and over
and over the same screeching thing.
Homeschooling laws and policies are summarized in very many places on the
web, at www.unschooling.com, at the NHEN site, probably at HEM's site, A-to-Z
Home's Cool, before even getting into the conservative sites.
If we use an international list to discuss immediate needs of unschoolers, it
will be a great use of an international list. Discussing American
Libertarian "philosophy" is not a good use of an international unschooling
list.
Sandra
Sandra
Bill and Diane
SandraDodd@... wrote:
destination "the drivers seat."
For a Libertarian the inquisitioner is a bad driver.
>In a message dated 8/10/02 10:14:40 PM, nedvare@... writes:Answering others questons gives the oter person control of the
>
><< When will
>we have had enough of bad laws, of being treated like naughty unruly
>ignorant children by people who usually don't know their butt from a
>bicycle, but have bad law behind them.
> >>
>
>Nobody's treated me that way for a long time except you, Ned.
>
>You don't answer people's questions when they ask them. You're not really
>discussing anything with us, just telling us over and over and over and over
>and over the same screeching thing.
>
>Homeschooling laws and policies are summarized in very many places on the
>web, at www.unschooling.com, at the NHEN site, probably at HEM's site, A-to-Z
>Home's Cool, before even getting into the conservative sites.
>
>If we use an international list to discuss immediate needs of unschoolers, it
>will be a great use of an international list. Discussing American
>Libertarian "philosophy" is not a good use of an international unschooling
>list.
>
destination "the drivers seat."
For a Libertarian the inquisitioner is a bad driver.
Bill and Diane
SandraDodd@... wrote:
destination "the drivers seat."
For a Libertarian the inquisitioner is a bad driver.
Bill
>In a message dated 8/10/02 10:14:40 PM, nedvare@... writes:Answering others questons gives the oter person control of the
>
><< When will
>we have had enough of bad laws, of being treated like naughty unruly
>ignorant children by people who usually don't know their butt from a
>bicycle, but have bad law behind them.
> >>
>
>Nobody's treated me that way for a long time except you, Ned.
>
>You don't answer people's questions when they ask them. You're not really
>discussing anything with us, just telling us over and over and over and over
>and over the same screeching thing.
>
>Homeschooling laws and policies are summarized in very many places on the
>web, at www.unschooling.com, at the NHEN site, probably at HEM's site, A-to-Z
>Home's Cool, before even getting into the conservative sites.
>
>If we use an international list to discuss immediate needs of unschoolers, it
>will be a great use of an international list. Discussing American
>Libertarian "philosophy" is not a good use of an international unschooling
>list.
>
destination "the drivers seat."
For a Libertarian the inquisitioner is a bad driver.
Bill
Fetteroll
on 8/11/02 12:15 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
people would want to discuss something without being able to discuss the
facts and talk with the people involved. It just seems to me if people
really were interested in the case they'd *want* to go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MAhomeschoolers/ to find out what Kim Bryant
herself had to say. And what the arguments for and against their position
were. (That list started late in April 2001. For discussion before that
you'll need to go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/masshomelearningassoc/)
Doing it here we can't do more than guess and speculate. All we could do is
create something that *we want* the case to have been about and *want* the
Bryants to have been fighting for and *want* the Bryants themselves to have
been. Heroes. We want heroes to rally behind.
So I can see how it's equally baffling to others that the homeschoolers of
MA have seemingly rejected a hero right here in our very midst.
It helps to have been there. Every time I tuned into the list Kim was trying
to explain her interpretation of the state constitution and why she was
right and the state was wrong. There was no hint of "I know you guys don't
understand or agree with our tactics, but we think fighting this particular
battle will help all homeschoolers." Nope. Just her interpretation of the
constitution.
The Bryants weren't Minute Men. The Minute Men were organized groups in a
town who got together to fight the enemy they all agreed was the enemy. The
Bryants were off on their own firing their muskets at targets of their own
choosing. The difference is neither good nor bad, better nor worse. It's
just different.
The Bryants appeared to be engaged in a *personal* battle with the state. As
a *side effect* it could have benefited other homeschoolers. But the battle
appeared to be *personal*. Which *suggested* that whether it benefited other
homeschoolers was not was not their primary goal.
Maybe it was a false appearance. Maybe the Bryants were so deeply into the
court battle that they couldn't see the forest for the trees. But we can't
judge by other than what we're given to see. And all we were given was a
tiny view of the trees the Bryants were most concerned about and no hint
that they cared about the forest at all.
I don't want it to appear I'm demonizing the Bryants. I don't think they
should have fought a different battle than they did or in a different way
than they did it. They fought a battle they believed in. That's what they
should have done! I won't judge them for what they did because I don't
understand what or why they did it. But I won't participate in pretending
they were fighting some battle other than what it appeared they were
fighting just because people want heroes.
If you want to help the Bryants you can go to:
http://www.educationalfreedom.com/pages/bryant.html
There's also Justice for Families (http://www.justiceforfamilies.com/) who
are fighting abuse by DSS. They were involved with the Bryants during the
court battles. It started in MA so the above links to the MA site. But
others are opening up chapters across the US and those are listed at the
bottom of: http://www.justiceforfamilies.com/Chapters.htm (There's a Florida
chapter too!) They have an email list also that the Bryants are apparently
active on: http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/justiceforfamilies
If people are really interested in getting the laws changed in their state,
it's perhaps even better to find your state homeschooling group and get on
their email list or read their website. Go to http://www.nhen.org for a list
of state homeschooling groups. You may have to dig some. It may be your
state group isn't interested in some advocacy going on so is ignoring it.
You'll need to ask. And perhaps even be the person who starts the advocacy!
Joyce
> The Bryants, as I see it, are trying to answer that call, to begin to changeI was about to ask this very thing! It's been kind of baffling to me that
> things for the better, even though they know how simple (but dishonest) it
> would be to comply with the bad law.
> The Bryants are heroes. We need thousands of Bryant families. Unfortunately
> there are few such people, but they are the minutemen of homeschooling.
people would want to discuss something without being able to discuss the
facts and talk with the people involved. It just seems to me if people
really were interested in the case they'd *want* to go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MAhomeschoolers/ to find out what Kim Bryant
herself had to say. And what the arguments for and against their position
were. (That list started late in April 2001. For discussion before that
you'll need to go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/masshomelearningassoc/)
Doing it here we can't do more than guess and speculate. All we could do is
create something that *we want* the case to have been about and *want* the
Bryants to have been fighting for and *want* the Bryants themselves to have
been. Heroes. We want heroes to rally behind.
So I can see how it's equally baffling to others that the homeschoolers of
MA have seemingly rejected a hero right here in our very midst.
It helps to have been there. Every time I tuned into the list Kim was trying
to explain her interpretation of the state constitution and why she was
right and the state was wrong. There was no hint of "I know you guys don't
understand or agree with our tactics, but we think fighting this particular
battle will help all homeschoolers." Nope. Just her interpretation of the
constitution.
The Bryants weren't Minute Men. The Minute Men were organized groups in a
town who got together to fight the enemy they all agreed was the enemy. The
Bryants were off on their own firing their muskets at targets of their own
choosing. The difference is neither good nor bad, better nor worse. It's
just different.
The Bryants appeared to be engaged in a *personal* battle with the state. As
a *side effect* it could have benefited other homeschoolers. But the battle
appeared to be *personal*. Which *suggested* that whether it benefited other
homeschoolers was not was not their primary goal.
Maybe it was a false appearance. Maybe the Bryants were so deeply into the
court battle that they couldn't see the forest for the trees. But we can't
judge by other than what we're given to see. And all we were given was a
tiny view of the trees the Bryants were most concerned about and no hint
that they cared about the forest at all.
I don't want it to appear I'm demonizing the Bryants. I don't think they
should have fought a different battle than they did or in a different way
than they did it. They fought a battle they believed in. That's what they
should have done! I won't judge them for what they did because I don't
understand what or why they did it. But I won't participate in pretending
they were fighting some battle other than what it appeared they were
fighting just because people want heroes.
If you want to help the Bryants you can go to:
http://www.educationalfreedom.com/pages/bryant.html
There's also Justice for Families (http://www.justiceforfamilies.com/) who
are fighting abuse by DSS. They were involved with the Bryants during the
court battles. It started in MA so the above links to the MA site. But
others are opening up chapters across the US and those are listed at the
bottom of: http://www.justiceforfamilies.com/Chapters.htm (There's a Florida
chapter too!) They have an email list also that the Bryants are apparently
active on: http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/justiceforfamilies
If people are really interested in getting the laws changed in their state,
it's perhaps even better to find your state homeschooling group and get on
their email list or read their website. Go to http://www.nhen.org for a list
of state homeschooling groups. You may have to dig some. It may be your
state group isn't interested in some advocacy going on so is ignoring it.
You'll need to ask. And perhaps even be the person who starts the advocacy!
Joyce
[email protected]
> on 8/11/02 12:15 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:Ned,
>
> > The Bryants, as I see it, are trying to answer that call, to begin to
> change
> > things for the better, even though they know how simple (but dishonest)
> it
> > would be to comply with the bad law.
>
> > The Bryants are heroes. We need thousands of Bryant families.
> Unfortunately
> > there are few such people, but they are the minutemen of homeschooling.
>
Do you really know anything about this case? Have you talked to MA hsers and
what they think about all this? Have you talked to the Bryants?
Most hsers in MA I know don't support or appreciate what the Bryants did.
What they did didn't help hsers in MA either. It may cause problems in the
future for other hsers there.
Any hsers I know there think the Bryants are extreme Constitutionalists and
were willing to put their kids at risk.
Any list the Bryants are on is dominated by their Constitutionists views (and
a couple of other posters) and that's why a second MA hsing list was started
that doesn't allow such political discussions.
I wouldn't call them heros.
~Ellen
«·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.»§«(¨`v´¨).»§«·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.»
` v´
"It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of
instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiousity of inquiry;
for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need
of freedom."
-- Albert Einstein
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]