audrey elwood

hey zenmomma!
my kids love a book called phonics pathways, and a reading exercise book
that goes along w/ it called pyramid-it is a game! they have a great time w/
it and v\bring it to me to do w/ them---about 35.00 for both of them i
think. i found them in "the well trained mind"
good luck!
audrey

>From: [email protected]
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2226
>Date: 10 Aug 2002 19:29:07 -0000
>
>
>If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
>the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@... ) or the list
>owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>There are 25 messages in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 2. Re: Hooked on phonics?
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
> 3. Re: Digest Number 2213
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 4. Re: read your funnies!
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
> 5. Re: Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
> 6. Re: Digest Number 2213
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 7. Re: Hooked on phonics?
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 8. Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)
> From: Deb <herbtea@...>
> 9. Re: hooked on phonics and introduction
> From: AlmondJoy721@...
> 10. Re: Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 11. christianity
> From: "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@...>
> 12. Re: Hooked on phonics?
> From: earthangel0329@...
> 13. Re: Digest Number 2213
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
> 14. Re: Hell
> From: Deb <herbtea@...>
> 15. googling creation
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
> 16. re Hell
> From: Deb <herbtea@...>
> 17. Re: hooked on phonics and introduction
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
> 18. school financing and economics debates
> From: PSoroosh@...
> 19. Re: googling creation
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 20. Re: Comics and cartoon unschoolers
> From: Dnowens@...
> 21. Re: Throwing Money
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
> 22. Re: 2222 Thanks Joanna
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
> 23. Re: 2223 -- the god thread
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
> 24. Re: 2223 Separation of School and State
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
> 25. Re: 2223 -- YIKES! !
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:55:04 -0400
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?
>
>on 8/10/02 10:11 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
>
> > OK, so my point was that the state in MA puts requirements on
>homeschoolers
> > that some homeschoolers fulfill by lying about their plans.
>
>You imply I lie when I send in my ed plan. How do you know? Have you been
>to
>my home? Have you compared my unschooling and my ed plan? Carol Narigon's
>letter says exactly what I'm doing. So what would be the purpose of
>representing what *I* and what all MA unschoolers do as a lie? (Have you
>been to their homes too? Have you seen their ed plans?)
>
>How do these broadbrush misrepresentations of MA homeschooers and the
>Bryants help anyone here unschool better? Your rhetoric may make for some
>wonderfully scary, heroic stories around the campfire but in the light of
>day they don't line up with the real live flesh and blood people I know.
>
> > The Bryants did
> > not accept forced lying, preferring to be truthful and to expect decent
> > treatment by the state authorities. Instead, the state refused to accept
> > honesty and insisted that they lie in order to be free.
>
>Again, inflamatory and misrepresentative. Noble homeschoolers against the
>evil state? Not. People taking a stand for something they believed in? I
>hope so. But taking a stand or believing in something doesn't make someone
>automatically right.
>
>It's no where near as noble to gather the state's homeschoolers together to
>get the regulations changed, is it? It's the people who get shot who get
>cheered and held up as heroes. *I'm* not cheering. Though I do cheer for
>the
>quiet ones in the state group who are politcally active for homeschooling.
>
> > The Bryants are taking one small step, at huge personal expense and
>risk, in
> > order to help ALL homeschoolers everywhere, and you say they should cave
>in
> > to a bad regulation supported by a vindictive and stupid judge?
>
>Funny, they didn't ask me if I thought that was a good way to help. And I
>think there was a general feeling they may have harmed more than they
>helped.
>
>You're basically saying the homeschoolers of MA are too blind, ignorant and
>like scared sheep to be able to understand the smoke that's in their own
>state. That you who see so much clearer know that every puff of smoke is
>hiding a ranging inferno about to burst free. That insults every
>politically
>active homeschooler in MA.
>
>Let us MA people fight our own fights without underinformed inflammatory
>commentary from passers by, okay? Or if you feel your words need to be
>heard, then feel free to post at
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MAhomeschoolers/
>
>(And by now you should have read the "A gentle nudge ..." post. It might
>help to reread it if you still feel continuing this would help my daughter
>explore the world better, or would help someone who wants that Saxon 5/6 to
>spend her money on something that would bring joy to her son.)
>
>Joyce
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:06:21 -0600
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
>Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics?
>
>
> >>We are contemplating buying Hooked on Phonics for Brittany. I looked up
> >>the info. on the official web site & it is $299.99 + 27.50 shipping &
> >>handling. YIKES! Do you know of any other places we could buy it? If
> >>there was a store around that sold it at least we could save the
>shipping
> >>& handling. Also, do you know anyone who has used it?>>
>
>YIKES! is right. Believe me when I tell you it is NOT worth the money and
>Brittany does NOT need it to learn to read. Those commercials make their
>program sound so fun and easy, but really it's just tedium in a box. My
>Casey got sucked in by those commercials once and asked me to get her that
>program. We borrowed it from the library. She was bored in one day. She was
>NOT however bored with learning to read. Just the simplistic phonics only
>approach that this system was using.
>
>We had much more fun and lots of success using a playful, relaxed and
>varied
>approach. Everything in that expensive phonics program can be found much
>better in real life. There are books from the library, blocks, magnetic
>letters, workbooks from the grocery (for playing, NOT enforcing of course),
>games like Scrabble and Boggle, computer games, magazines, etc.
>
>I would suggest your local library as one of the best resources around. If
>you feel a need to brush up on those phonics rules for yourself (so you can
>help Brittany), there are tons of books on the subject. And all for free!
>
>Life is good.
>~Mary
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:16:59 -0400
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
>Subject: Re: Digest Number 2213
>
>on 8/10/02 11:27 AM, zenmomma * at zenmomma@... wrote:
>
> > Wasn't Cathy just answering someone's question about the two different
> > creation accounts to be found in Genesis? I don't believe this post was
>an
> > attempt to proselytize here.
>
>That's the way I took it.
>
>And I know I read somewhere that there's a 3rd account that's different
>from
>those 2 that's deeper into the Old Testament. I think I read it in Kenneth
>Davis's Don't Know Much About the Bible. I was sure I owned that but I must
>have borrowed it from the library.
>
>It was driving me crazy before I forgot about it. And now you go and bring
>it back up again. ;-)
>
>Joyce
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:20:22 -0600
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
>Subject: Re: read your funnies!
>
>
> >>YES! Garfield and Peanuts and Calvin & Hobbs! Our comic books are out
> >>every single day. I wouldn't be without them.>>
>
>Our unschooling motto comes from Hobbes himself:
>
>"If nobody makes you do it, it counts as fun."
>
>Life is good.
>~Mary
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:40:43 -0600
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?
>
>
> >>Please restore my faith here. Explain your stance.
> >
> >Ned Vare>>
>
>Please, please, please Ned. Please take this particular discussion
>off-list.
>Please let's move the discussion back towatds the positives of unschooling.
>Please let's share the joy and fun and beauty of watching our children
>blossom and learn.
>
>Please. It's a personal request. Please.
>
>Life is good.
>~Mary
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:56:53 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
>Subject: Re: Digest Number 2213
>
>
>In a message dated 8/10/02 10:13:35 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
>
><< And I know I read somewhere that there's a 3rd account that's different
>from
>those 2 that's deeper into the Old Testament. >>
>
>
><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fowl.html">From what
>were the fowls created?</A>
>
>This is about whether birds came out of the ocean or out of the ground.
>http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fowl.html
>
><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html">Were
>plants created before or after humans?</A>
>
>http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html
>
><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/humans.html">Were
>humans created before or after the other a</A>nimals?
>
>http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/humans.html
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:01:32 -0400
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
>Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics?
>
>on 8/10/02 1:30 AM, tonya wright at chatadict2t@... wrote:
>
> > We are contemplating buying Hooked on Phonics for Brittany. I looked up
>the
> > info. on the official web site & it is $299.99 + 27.50 shipping &
>handling.
> > YIKES! Do you know of any other places we could buy it? If there was a
> > store around that sold it at least we could save the shipping &
>handling.
> > Also, do you know anyone who has used it?
>
>Well, look at it this way. The ads make it look like it's fun for the kids.
>And it might be. But how much are you willing to spend on a fun way to do
>something that will happen naturally for free? How much would you have paid
>for a fun program to help her to walk?
>
>I think I ended up paying about $5. $20 for the 100 Easy Lessons which I
>sold last year for about $15. (And it didn't work either because my
>daughter
>had 0 interest.)
>
>What you're really buying is:
>
>1) a sense of peace that she'll learn to read. This is preying on
>groundless
>fears. As an unschooler in an environment where reading is naturally fun
>and
>useful she *will* learn to read. It may be tomorrow. It may be 6 years from
>now. (Unless you put her in school where life isn't natural and there are
>major road blocks to learning to read. (Like expecting her to do something
>she isn't developmentally ready for yet.) So for parents with kids in
>school
>the fears aren't quite so groundless.)
>
>2) *Maybe* early reading. Maybe. Though I'd be more inclined to believe the
>kids who read early with phonics programs are the ones who would have read
>early to begin with. And though being able to read before school starts
>gets
>cheered, what does it really mean? No one can tell the difference between
>an
>adult who read at 3 and an adult who read at 7. (I'd extend that to 13 for
>an unschooler but a later reader in school might be demoralized by the
>intervention and end up not liking to read or be convinced he can't. Sandra
>has been collecting stories of later readers at
>http://sandradodd.com/reading I think the most important thing to realize
>in
>terms of calming fears is that a 13 yo new reader is *not* 7 years behind.
>They'll be indistinguishable from their peers pretty quickly.) Learning
>through reading is *different* not better than learning by doing or
>learning
>by watching. Unless you're in school where learning is *only* avialble
>through reading and listening. Then otherwise endowed kids are severly
>handicapped. That doesn't need to be true at home. We can adapt the
>environment to the kid rather than the kid to the environment.
>
>If you still think you'd like it, first check your library or through
>interlibrary loan. Just ask your librarian to search. That should be free.
>(Or a nominal fee. I think one library in our system charges a quarter for
>each request.) Even if they don't have a regular system in place, most
>libraries will call around and try to locate what you want.
>
>There's some at http://www.half.com You'll need to read and ask questions
>of the sellers and perhaps search the internet to figure out what you're
>getting since some of the sets are a few years old. (And to make sure the
>seller has listed his item under the correct heading!)
>
>If you go to http://www.addall.com it will search 20 or so used book sites
>(including half.com). It will be very helpful if you have the ISBN of the
>one or ones you want since there's 15 of them and they're not listed by
>publication date.
>
>The full price one does have a 60 day money back guarantee. Not on the s&h
>though. But *if* you get to keep the National Geographics on CD that comes
>as a free gift, it might be worth it even if you never use it and just send
>it back! ;-) (It's *way* not worth it if you don't send it back. You're
>much
>better off getting it used and then reselling. You'll lose less money!)
>
>Joyce
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:15:10 -0400
> From: Deb <herbtea@...>
>Subject: Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)
>
>
> > Should we disband social services because once in a while a
>homeschoolien
> > family is pressured? Should social services be a free market situation
>too?
> > Domestic violence and child abuse (sexual abuse, burning as punishment,
> > broken limbs)--those are things I would like for the government to help
> > prevent.
>
>Governments don't PREVENT domestic violence or child abuse. How exactly
>do you think a government would intervene before anything happened?
>
>Court injunctions sometimes do it when it has gone to an extreme, but
>the government never sees the inside of most households, and it should
>stay that way!
>
>My state, FLorida is notorious for its extremely ineffective social
>services agency. THey keep changing the social service agency's name
>(Dept. of Children and Families is what it is called now) so hopefully
>people will forget the kids who were just murdered, neglected or hurt,
>and keep funding them. On the other hand I have seen testimony by many,
>many families whose lives were ruined by social service agencies who
>tore them apart, ripped kids out of their parents home for no good
>reason by their own opinions and put them into foster homes where they
>were raped or abused and neglected.
>
>BUt they change the name of their agency, rather than their
>fundamentally flawed premise, that the government by intruding and
>degrading the dignity and rights of its people can get them to "act
>better". Do you advocate spanking and punishing your child and use
>threats of that to increase their judgment? It's just that the
>government finds it very difficult to control people in a positive way.
>I think that is what you are asking for. Punishment (though it has its
>place) does not control people - it smashes them. A better idea of WHAT
>to do for people and how to define roles, and helping people help
>themselves is what is needed. That is a slow hard way to go for it means
>one-on-one communication and understanding and if you don't really have
>any idea how to help someone, you don't conceive it is possible - but it
>is.
>
>Debbie
>
>That
>
> >
> > So social services are part of what citizens and residents want. And
>we
> > won't exist in societies without laws.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
>
>
>--
>Director, Live Oak Academy
>Visit our website http://www.newhealth.net/liveoak/
>
> ~Flexible Alternative Schooling for Families~
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:06:24 EDT
> From: AlmondJoy721@...
>Subject: Re: hooked on phonics and introduction
>
>
>In a message dated 8/9/02 10:31:44 PM, [email protected]
>writes:
>
><< Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:30:50 +0000
> From: "tonya wright" <chatadict2t@...>
>Subject: Hooked on phonics?
>
>We are contemplating buying Hooked on Phonics for Brittany. I looked up
>the
>info. on the official web site & it is $299.99 + 27.50 shipping & handling.
>YIKES! Do you know of any other places we could buy it? If there was a
>store around that sold it at least we could save the shipping & handling.
>Also, do you know anyone who has used it?
>
>Tonya
>Brittany & Melody's Mommy
>4/22/99 12/01/01
>
> >>
>
>Try Ebay they are many people trying to sell copies for at least half of
>that
>new price...I just checked www.ebay.com I have bought some used books
>from ebay and got great deals.
>
>I am Jessica from San Diego who would like to "unschool" (I hate the
>label).
>I have been lurking for at least a month. I have not started any sort of
>school or unschool at home as yet, unless one counts summer and just trying
>to relax, but I am not sending my 12 year old back to public school this
>fall. After years of arguing with his father, I have finally succeeded in
>at least having him agree to let me try it at home. (divorce in progress
>here) Their father does not trust that I can handle the situation without
>a
>"facilitator" so I am probably going to sign up for a Charter School, and
>go
>from there, at least it is in a little different direction. My son has
>largely lost the joy of learning, although I see him doing things this
>summer that seem like learning to me...which I would never mention to him.
>He has never read for pleasure as a for instance. Maybe that will come,
>maybe it won't. I really believe he needs a large break. I am hoping with
>this charter school that we may be able to choose a "curriculum" and do
>basically what we want, yet documenting it in a way that appears to follow
>said curriculum.
>I have two older sons who went through the PS system. My seventeen year
>old
>is doing fine by most people standards, my twenty year old really would
>have
>benefited from a completely different situation. I am feeling very guilty
>for being so complacent for so many years.... and hope I can at least turn
>my
>youngest's life around.
>Ideally, I would like to do away with any kind of system at all. I believe
>systems of all kinds are largely a mistake.
> I have enjoyed most of the posts on the list although some threads have
>gotten a bit tedious for me only because there are an awful lot of posts
>to
>read through. I am currently trying the digest version since I also belong
>to a number of other groups. At least that way they are somewhat sorted.
>I
>have not been offended by anything. Keep up the great posts. I thank you
>all for the lively discussions.
>Jessica
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:19:04 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
>Subject: Re: Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)
>
>
>In a message dated 8/10/02 11:01:31 AM, herbtea@... writes:
>
><< Governments don't PREVENT domestic violence or child abuse. How exactly
>do you think a government would intervene before anything happened? >>
>
>I know of cases when the violence stopped at two or three instances.
>And I've known of cases when nobody reported it and the violence went on
>and
>on and on.
>
>What if there was nobody to report it TO?
>
>Florida has screwed some stuff up badly. I don't think disbanding social
>services in Florida is the answer.
>
>Sandra
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:21:39 -0000
> From: "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@...>
>Subject: christianity
>
>"Let us just agree to disagree and leave it at that."
>
>We obviously disagree....I wish you could back up your beliefs with
>some truth or at the least a fact.
>Is there anyone else you have spoken with/read/watched that purports
>the view that Christianity is not a religion?
>Do you/have you read any John Holt?
>I am floored by the statements that you would not read or listen to
>anyone about unschooling/parenting that weren't parent's themselves.
>
>Ren
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:45:04 EDT
> From: earthangel0329@...
>Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics?
>
>Hello all,
>
>Just thought I would introduce myself, My name is Mary and I am a
>homeschooling mom of 3 1/2 kids (#4 due in Sept). I have been lurking the
>last few days and trying to keep up with the "friendly" banter.lol
>
>Anyway just thought I would put in my opinion of the hooked on phonics
>program. I bought this (at a garage sale) and tried it with my son. He is
>very music oriented so I thought he would enjoy it. He listened to the
>first
>tape for about ten minutes and lost interest. We occasionally look through
>the books but I don't think its worth the $300 I would have spent if I
>purchased it new.
>
>I guess I should have known when I bought it, it was still in the original
>box with the receipt inside. I doubt the original owner used it for any
>amount of time as well.
>
>Anyway, hope that helps. Will probably go back to lurking for a while,
>thanks for listening.
>
>Mary
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:52:07 -0600
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
>Subject: Re: Digest Number 2213
>
>
> >>It was driving me crazy before I forgot about it. And now you go and
>bring
> >>it back up again. ;-)>>
>
>Like one of those songs you just can't get out of your head, huh? You could
>always Google it. ;-) Ka-ching! There goes Sandra's Google stock rising
>again. <g>
>
>Life is good.
>~Mary
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:07:47 -0400
> From: Deb <herbtea@...>
>Subject: Re: Hell
>
>Hey, Suzanna. I didn't know. I am always interested in different
>religions. Which church is it that you are talking about? What a good
>idea! Hell is where you have to spend all the rest of time with other
>evil people.
>
>Debbie
>
> >>>>That depends on which Christian church you are talking about. The
>church I belong to does not have the same concept of Hell as most
>others. We don't believe in a literal firey pit. We do believe that
>all of the evil people will spend eternity with each other though,
>and never be around good people. I think that would be all the
>punishment neccessary. And by evil people, we don't mean people who
>believe differently than us, we mean really evil people like Hitler,
>child molestors, murders, etc. You know, people who, by just about
>any standard, would be considered evil.
>
>-Suzanna
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:54:28 -0600
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
>Subject: googling creation
>
>HA! See, I knew Sandra would Google it! ;-)
>
>Life is good.
>~Mary
>
>
> >From: SandraDodd@...
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2213
> >Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:56:53 EDT
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 8/10/02 10:13:35 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
> >
> ><< And I know I read somewhere that there's a 3rd account that's
>different
> >from
> >those 2 that's deeper into the Old Testament. >>
> >
> >
> ><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fowl.html">From
>what
> >were the fowls created?</A>
> >
> >This is about whether birds came out of the ocean or out of the ground.
> >http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fowl.html
> >
> ><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html">Were
> >plants created before or after humans?</A>
> >
> >http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html
> >
> ><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/humans.html">Were
> >humans created before or after the other a</A>nimals?
> >
> >http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/humans.html
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:25:25 -0400
> From: Deb <herbtea@...>
>Subject: re Hell
>
> >>>>I spend a significant amount of time writing to a young man in prison
>for
>selling drugs. His behavior led to the death of several people. He
>grew up
>in foster care, was beaten, told he was stupid and would never amount to
>anything. Is he evil? I can't judge him.
>
><<<<I swear Jesus/Goddess/the Great I AM/Zeus must be wondering if we
>will EVER
>get it, EVER. I know I do.
>
>Julie>>>>>
>
>That is wisdom, Julie. Although I enjoyed Suzanna's post and wondered
>which church said the rather different idea of hell she expressed, it
>also occurred to me that worse than spending eternity in hell with evil
>ones if you are evil, is spending eternity with evil people when you
>aren't.... Earth in other words.
>Or spending eternity with evil people who are really good inside and
>could possibly be really themselves, and we all have acted in an
>aberrated way worse than we wished at times.
>
>Note: I say eternity and earth in the same sentence because I happen to
>have the reality that there is not only one lifetime and we may have all
>been doing this for a really, really long time.
>
>I just volunteered to write to inmates in a correspondence course for
>prisoners.
>
>Debbie
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:26:00 -0600
> From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
>Subject: Re: hooked on phonics and introduction
>
>
>
> >>I am Jessica from San Diego who would like to "unschool" (I hate the
> >>label). I have been lurking for at least a month. I have not started any
> >>sort of school or unschool at home as yet, unless one counts summer and
> >>just trying to relax...>>
>
>Welcome Jessica. Label or not, the best part of an unschooling lifestyle is
>that IT ALL COUNTS! The learning continues. The mind keeps on thinking,
>summer breaks and all. :o)
>
> >>I really believe he needs a large break.>>
>
>Absolutely. In homechooling/unschooling circles this break is called
>"deschooling" and is always recommended. I've heard the guideline of one
>month for every year of school. Like everything else of course, this is not
>a rule, but a suggestion or guideline based on experience.
> >>I am feeling very guilty for being so complacent for so many years....
>and
> >>hope I can at least turn my youngest's life around.>>
>
>While you all deschool, you can also work on forgiving yourself. Lots of us
>have felt the way you do. You've done the best you could with the
>information you had. Now you have more information and you're making
>different choices for your youngest. Try not to let guilt get in the way of
>a joyful today.
>
>Life is good.
>~Mary
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 18
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:39:32 EDT
> From: PSoroosh@...
>Subject: school financing and economics debates
>
><<Parents -- not politicians or government employees -- should choose how
>their own money should be spent for their own children's education.
>Nobody has a right to anyone else's property.
> >>>
>
>Ned --
>
>You have apparently not read enough economics to have understood the
>concepts
>of public goods and positive/negative externalities and some of the causes
>and solutions to market failure. Neither have most of the other people
>here,
>so it is difficult for them to counter even some of the most simplistic
>arguments, without the ability to draw upon and articulate those somewhat
>more complex concepts. It doesn't make you right, it just makes it
>frustrating and annoying to watch the process.
>
>This is not a good place to argue economics - people are not here because
>they are interested in that. If I thought they were, I'd jump in and
>provide
>plenty of arguments, based on sound economic reasoning, for why it DOES
>make
>sense, in a mixed economy, such as that of the United States, for some of
>our
>tax dollars to be used for educating other people's children and for a
>number
>of other purposes.
>
>However, like I said, people did not COME to this list to argue economics,
>not even the economics of public school financing. A really good place for
>that kind of argument, if you want to do it with other homeschoolers, is
>the
>NHEN-Legislative yahoogroups list.
>
>Please EVERYONE ELSE WHO IS NOT INTERESTED --- the way list topics get
>perpetuated is by people responding to them - you vote with your own posts
><G>
>. If you want these kinds of threads to die a natural death, stop
>responding
>to them, no matter how difficult that may be. Those who ARE interested and
>want to continue - please make the subject line clear so that the rest of
>us
>can delete the messages more easily. Thank you.
>
>--Pam Sorooshian
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 19
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:02:23 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
>Subject: Re: googling creation
>
>
>In a message dated 8/10/02 11:55:29 AM, zenmomma@... writes:
>
><< HA! See, I knew Sandra would Google it! ;-) >>
>
>I kinda skepticized it. (Almost like capsizing.)
>
>In my favorite places I have
>http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
>the Skeptics Annotated Bible
>
>and on that site are search features and a list of contradictions within
>the
>Bible.
>
>One thing all Baptists are taught and repeat ad nauseum is that the Bible
>is
>perfect and never contradicts itself.
>
>The list of contradictions on that site is up to 312 now.
>
>The problem with TOTALLY absolute statements is that one exception makes
>the
>whole thing false. They worship the book itself, pretty much. And
>they're
>always telling people to read it! Read the whole thing! Read every night!
>If I hadn't read it, I could have maintained the facade with them that it
>answers any question anyone might have, and it never contradicts itself.
>
>It's a good religion for people who want life to be simple and who want to
>hang around with others who say they read the whole Bible, but really
>don't.
>Or maybe they just sound out the words without going for comprehension.
>
>Sandra
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 20
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:21:47 EDT
> From: Dnowens@...
>Subject: Re: Comics and cartoon unschoolers
>
>In a message dated 8/10/02 8:58:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
>liza@... writes:
>
>
> > Who else would you nominate?
> >
> > Liza, aka TOON MAMA!
>
>I would nominate all the kids on Rocket Power, I don't think I have seen
>one
>episode about school yet. Those kids are all over the place, playing
>various
>sports, cleaning up the beach, building forts, helping Dad run the
>hamburger
>stand, having their own enterprises. If they aren't hsers, they should be!
>
>Zim from Invader Zim. Even though he is an alien sent to take over the
>earth,
>and he goes to school to do this, he would make a great unschooler. He has
>made his own home, he even made his own Ward-and-June-like parents/robots.
>Also Dib from Invader Zim, he is the kid who *thinks* he knows that Zim is
>an
>alien and is always out to prove it. This child is constantly learning. He
>uses all the science things around his house. (His Dad is a scientist, who
>is
>always at work, the kids don't see him much.) I nominate him for gifted
>homeschooler, he would be the one we read about, in the paper, as the local
>boy who won the National Spelling Bee, or the Science Fair.
>
>Timmy from Fairly Odd Parents, would really benefit from unschooling!
>
>Most likely to be Christian Homeschoolers?
>Bobby Hill from King of the Hill
>Ned Flanders kids from The Simpsons
>
>Most likely to benefit from Unschooling?
>Bobby Hill from King of the Hill
>Hank Hill from King of the Hill
>
>~Nancy
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 21
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:29:25 -0400
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
>Subject: Re: Throwing Money
>
>Freedom and Choice
>Go Hand in Hand
>
>(please copy and distribute -- no attribution needed)
>
>The government is failing to educate our children. In (name your state),
>the
>failure follows the national pattern. The school system is not doing its
>job. Taxpayers� money is being wasted while the children are being denied
>an
>education. More money will not change it. Sending kids to suburban schools
>won�t change it because all the public schools in the state are run by the
>state Department of Education by the same rules, methods and mandates and
>all offer the same poor quality schooling. It's bad by design.
>
> The public schools are failing everywhere because they don�t have
>effective programs; they have no standards and no goals; they use inferior
>methods for instruction (i.e., �Whole Language� a proven failure instead
>of
>Phonics a proven success); their bad teachers are virtually impossible to
>fire thanks to the power of the teachers� union; the system has a captive
>audience of consumers instead of parents with choices. The situation allows
>the schools to fail without losing any customers or funding. In fact, the
>worse the schools perform, the higher their funding gets. The Hartford CT
>schools prove that -- they are among the nation�s worst, and yet their per
>pupil cost is among the nation�s highest.
>
> Government school systems are bureaucratic monopolies with one constant
>objective: to enlarge their budgets. Their structure and practices
>guarantee
>poor performance. There are no incentives to improve the schools; no
>rewards
>for good teaching and no penalties for incompetence. The system can blame
>its customers and �society� for its own failures -- that�s convenient but
>dishonest -- while its cry remains, �Give us more money.� Taxpayers are its
>captives; the children are its victims.
>
>Ned Vare
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 22
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:29:27 -0400
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
>Subject: Re: 2222 Thanks Joanna
>
>on 8/9/02 9:46 PM, [email protected] at
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>Joanna writes:
> > Ideally we should get the money for our children that is being spent on
>other
> >citizens children,<
>
>Ned sez:
>Yes, with this further thought: It's OUR money to start with.
>Ideally, we should (be allowed to) keep the money in the first place. No
>one
>should be forced to pay for other people's children. If we help others, it
>should be because we want to, not because our home will be confiscated if
>we
>don't. This is America...do you have the right to take your neighbor's
>property? If not, what gives the govenment such a right. The government was
>created to protect our rights, not violate them.
>
>Joanna writes, concerning vouchers:
> > I chose to take my children out of the system and i don't want
> > anything else to do with it. Asking for our fair share comes with a
> > whole lot more than we are bargaining for. there is no getting
> > around that.
> > Joanna
>
>Ned answers:
>I totally agree. No one should be required to have anything to do with (or
>be forced to pay for) anything they do not use or don't approve of. That
>would be tyranny.
>
>There are only two methods of dealing with people: Voluntarily, or by
>force.
>Public schools get their funding by force -- the schools use a third party
>(government) to collect their money for them by force.
>
>The voucher movement is a partial measure in recovering an element of
>choice
>for parents, but the idea still leaves the fund collecting to the state and
>its force, and that will be the next big issue -- making funding voluntary.
>
>Meanwhile, if vouchers give just a few children the means of escaping from
>horrible schools, then they get my support. Ultimately, the only fair
>solution is for all school funding to be supported by the parents who
>choose
>them, with a variety of private scholarship methods to help needy families.
>
>While the government schools are getting more and more oppressive and
>despotic, there is a balancing movement, such as homeschooling and a growth
>of private schooling, and growing awareness of the needs of growing
>children. We are an integral part of that counter balance.
>
>Ned Vare
>crazy libertarian ranter
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 23
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:29:27 -0400
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
>Subject: Re: 2223 -- the god thread
>
>on 8/10/02 1:30 AM, [email protected] at
>[email protected] wrote:
>
> > Message: 11
> > Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 03:04:23 -0000
> > From: "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@...>
> > Subject: christianity
> >
> > "Christianity comes from Christ, religion is man made."
>
>Ned carries on:::
>
>Who knew that this was a religion group....? Well, so be it. I'll give it a
>shot. (it will tie in, just wait)
>
>The Bible tells the story of the evolution of man's perception of, and
>relationship to, the supernatural -- god -- the "greater force" behind
>worldly things, and the spiritual life, so to speak. "It's all in God's
>hands," as they(we)
> say.
>
>Early on, man desperately needed explanations for things that were, and
>still often are, beyond our comprehension.
>
>Faced with often overwhelming natural forces, we imagine an all powerful
>spirit that controls the world, indeed, the universe, and in the process,
>controls our puny existence.
>
>Early "gods" were the very forces of nature...Zeus, Mars, etc. There were
>graven images of animals, tree worshippers, sacrifices (murders) to show
>our
>fear of the forces of "heaven." Kings became gods to their people.
>
>Humans have, is seems, always had a need to ascribe anthropomorphic
>qualities and motives to the forces of nature and to the nether world and
>to
>the firmament. Thus, some gave their god a male human form and placed "him"
>in the heavens. "He" was to be the good (god) guy who would protect them,
>if
>they obeyed certain rules. And to explain all the "bad" stuff that happens,
>they created another guy (bad guy) and he lived, they were sure, underneath
>everything.....in Hell.
>
>All this imagery has been incredibly useful for financial institutions such
>as churces. The threat of Hell and damnation, along with the promise of
>someday sitting on the knee of a benevolent "creator" comprise the twin
>enticements for supporting a huge corps of therapists called clergy. (Hmm,
>sounds like what the public schools do to create their brand of conformity,
>"Sit still and be quiet, and you'll get As; but if you don't we'll drug you
>into a stupor)
>
>But the Bible goes further, because man is still evolving. Man's view of
>"god" changed over the centuries to a more and more enlightened idea. That
>advanced thinking is described in the New Testament. For my money, Jesus
>(and a few others, like Buddha) led the way out of the era of nature and
>animal worship into an era in which god is seen simply as man's highest
>view
>of himself. Jesus called it Love. Christianity changed everything, or, as
>Ren said,
> >> turn[ed} the status quo on it's head.<<
>Religion has become a personal thing, instead of a group thing, even though
>many people still enjoy group rituals and celebrations or their "truth."
>There's even a joke, "Hey, I saw God, and she's black !" -- talk about
>upsetting the apple cart...
>
>So, today, we don't grovel in front of a carved statue of a beast, we don't
>pray (beg) to an unknowable "man" in the sky, but we grow (if we can) in an
>understanding and demonstration of our own highest ethics and best
>attributes. If we read the Bible (which I used to but don't these days) we
>learn that we are created in the image and likeness of God.
>
>What "good news" (the meaning of "gospel') that is! If we can believe
>that,
>then we know that we are not born as "sinners," but with all the qualities
>we need in order to perfect our lives. It means there is no need to beg for
>favors, no need to pay for forgiveness, no need to believe that anyone or
>anything has power over us or is god's go-between. (Martin Luther drew that
>line in the sand for us, saying, in effect, that we could speak driectly to
>god, if we wanted to. Wow, what a breakthrough)
>
>We have examples of people in several cultures coming to similar
>conclusions. Man has evolved much since the days of cow worship and man
>worship. Today, there need be no intermediary (priest) between man and
>whatever we view as a creative/benevolent spirit, or god.
>
> The same evolution took place in nations...America was founded on the
>still
>relatively new (in 1750) idea that the individual is more important than
>the
>group, and our government was viewed by the framers as the mechanism to
>protect individual citizens from harm, whether from other individuals or
>groups. While government schooling is the last vestige of socialist ideas
>(top-down control, or subsumption of individuals to the group),
>homeschooling is helping our country to overcome that oppression and evolve
>to a higher level of self- and universal awareness.
>
>Ned Vare
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 24
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:29:27 -0400
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
>Subject: Re: 2223 Separation of School and State
>
>on 8/10/02 1:30 AM, [email protected] at
>[email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> > Message: 13
> > Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 20:33:13 -0700
>
> > From: Betsy <ecsamhill@...>
> > I don't have it bookmarked, but there is a separation of schools and
> > state website..... They
> > advocate eliminating public schooling.
> >
> > Betsy
>
>Thanks, Betsy. Let me correct one thing, though.
> The Separation of School and State Alliance (www.sepschool.org) does not
>advocate eliminating public schooling.
>
>It advocates the elimination of FORCED FUNDING of schools by government. In
>other words, public schools, like all others, should continue to exist so
>long as there are people who are willing to pay for them voluntarily. That
>would mean, of course, that those schools are providing a service that lots
>of people actually want.
>
>Today, there is in the ballpark of $400B annually spent on the public
>schools. If that amount was not forced to be paid by citizens to the one
>public school system, it would remain in the hands of those citizens who
>could spend it for any school they would choose for their kids.
>
>There are dozens of private funding programs today that help families
>afford
>alternative schools for their kids. Many more such programs would exist if
>the tax funding of schools ended. And with that, many new schools would
>open
>that would satisfy the varied needs of our diverse population.
>
>Ned Vare
>
>Ned Vare
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 25
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:31:10 -0400
> From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
>Subject: Re: 2223 -- YIKES! !
>
>on 8/10/02 1:30 AM, [email protected] at
>[email protected] wrote:
>
> > We are contemplating buying Hooked on Phonics for Brittany. I looked up
>the
> > info. on the official web site & it is $299.99 + 27.50 shipping &
>handling.
> > YIKES!
>
>Ned agrees. They've sold millions, so surely there are used ones available.
>Maybe your support group can buy it together, if you want it new.
>Otherwise,
>try advertising your need in classifieds or a radio swap program. Those
>have
>been helpful to us at times.
>PLUS, if you get it from a former user, they might give you tips about it.
>
>There are plenty of books available, from libraries too, that show us the
>basics of phonics. You can create your own games once you know what phonics
>is about, and how simple it is...up, pup, cup, cut, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

AAge & Josie Gribskov

Dear Beth, and all,
I posted my encouragemnt of talking homeschool politics on this list before
I read the most recent posts. I do agree that any discussion needs to be
respectful of differences and without personal attack or defense. I hope we
can keep things going on this note. One person's interpretation of facts may
be different than another's. We are all here to support eachother. Go team!
respectfully and always with humor Josie
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 12:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2226



If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@... ) or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
2. Re: Hooked on phonics?
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
3. Re: Digest Number 2213
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
4. Re: read your funnies!
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
5. Re: Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
6. Re: Digest Number 2213
From: SandraDodd@...
7. Re: Hooked on phonics?
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
8. Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)
From: Deb <herbtea@...>
9. Re: hooked on phonics and introduction
From: AlmondJoy721@...
10. Re: Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)
From: SandraDodd@...
11. christianity
From: "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@...>
12. Re: Hooked on phonics?
From: earthangel0329@...
13. Re: Digest Number 2213
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
14. Re: Hell
From: Deb <herbtea@...>
15. googling creation
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
16. re Hell
From: Deb <herbtea@...>
17. Re: hooked on phonics and introduction
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
18. school financing and economics debates
From: PSoroosh@...
19. Re: googling creation
From: SandraDodd@...
20. Re: Comics and cartoon unschoolers
From: Dnowens@...
21. Re: Throwing Money
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
22. Re: 2222 Thanks Joanna
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
23. Re: 2223 -- the god thread
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
24. Re: 2223 Separation of School and State
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
25. Re: 2223 -- YIKES! !
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:55:04 -0400
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?

on 8/10/02 10:11 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:

> OK, so my point was that the state in MA puts requirements on
homeschoolers
> that some homeschoolers fulfill by lying about their plans.

You imply I lie when I send in my ed plan. How do you know? Have you been to
my home? Have you compared my unschooling and my ed plan? Carol Narigon's
letter says exactly what I'm doing. So what would be the purpose of
representing what *I* and what all MA unschoolers do as a lie? (Have you
been to their homes too? Have you seen their ed plans?)

How do these broadbrush misrepresentations of MA homeschooers and the
Bryants help anyone here unschool better? Your rhetoric may make for some
wonderfully scary, heroic stories around the campfire but in the light of
day they don't line up with the real live flesh and blood people I know.

> The Bryants did
> not accept forced lying, preferring to be truthful and to expect decent
> treatment by the state authorities. Instead, the state refused to accept
> honesty and insisted that they lie in order to be free.

Again, inflamatory and misrepresentative. Noble homeschoolers against the
evil state? Not. People taking a stand for something they believed in? I
hope so. But taking a stand or believing in something doesn't make someone
automatically right.

It's no where near as noble to gather the state's homeschoolers together to
get the regulations changed, is it? It's the people who get shot who get
cheered and held up as heroes. *I'm* not cheering. Though I do cheer for the
quiet ones in the state group who are politcally active for homeschooling.

> The Bryants are taking one small step, at huge personal expense and risk,
in
> order to help ALL homeschoolers everywhere, and you say they should cave
in
> to a bad regulation supported by a vindictive and stupid judge?

Funny, they didn't ask me if I thought that was a good way to help. And I
think there was a general feeling they may have harmed more than they
helped.

You're basically saying the homeschoolers of MA are too blind, ignorant and
like scared sheep to be able to understand the smoke that's in their own
state. That you who see so much clearer know that every puff of smoke is
hiding a ranging inferno about to burst free. That insults every politically
active homeschooler in MA.

Let us MA people fight our own fights without underinformed inflammatory
commentary from passers by, okay? Or if you feel your words need to be
heard, then feel free to post at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MAhomeschoolers/

(And by now you should have read the "A gentle nudge ..." post. It might
help to reread it if you still feel continuing this would help my daughter
explore the world better, or would help someone who wants that Saxon 5/6 to
spend her money on something that would bring joy to her son.)

Joyce



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:06:21 -0600
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics?


>>We are contemplating buying Hooked on Phonics for Brittany. I looked up
>>the info. on the official web site & it is $299.99 + 27.50 shipping &
>>handling. YIKES! Do you know of any other places we could buy it? If
>>there was a store around that sold it at least we could save the shipping
>>& handling. Also, do you know anyone who has used it?>>

YIKES! is right. Believe me when I tell you it is NOT worth the money and
Brittany does NOT need it to learn to read. Those commercials make their
program sound so fun and easy, but really it's just tedium in a box. My
Casey got sucked in by those commercials once and asked me to get her that
program. We borrowed it from the library. She was bored in one day. She was
NOT however bored with learning to read. Just the simplistic phonics only
approach that this system was using.

We had much more fun and lots of success using a playful, relaxed and varied
approach. Everything in that expensive phonics program can be found much
better in real life. There are books from the library, blocks, magnetic
letters, workbooks from the grocery (for playing, NOT enforcing of course),
games like Scrabble and Boggle, computer games, magazines, etc.

I would suggest your local library as one of the best resources around. If
you feel a need to brush up on those phonics rules for yourself (so you can
help Brittany), there are tons of books on the subject. And all for free!

Life is good.
~Mary



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:16:59 -0400
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2213

on 8/10/02 11:27 AM, zenmomma * at zenmomma@... wrote:

> Wasn't Cathy just answering someone's question about the two different
> creation accounts to be found in Genesis? I don't believe this post was an
> attempt to proselytize here.

That's the way I took it.

And I know I read somewhere that there's a 3rd account that's different from
those 2 that's deeper into the Old Testament. I think I read it in Kenneth
Davis's Don't Know Much About the Bible. I was sure I owned that but I must
have borrowed it from the library.

It was driving me crazy before I forgot about it. And now you go and bring
it back up again. ;-)

Joyce



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:20:22 -0600
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: read your funnies!


>>YES! Garfield and Peanuts and Calvin & Hobbs! Our comic books are out
>>every single day. I wouldn't be without them.>>

Our unschooling motto comes from Hobbes himself:

"If nobody makes you do it, it counts as fun."

Life is good.
~Mary



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:40:43 -0600
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?


>>Please restore my faith here. Explain your stance.
>
>Ned Vare>>

Please, please, please Ned. Please take this particular discussion off-list.
Please let's move the discussion back towatds the positives of unschooling.
Please let's share the joy and fun and beauty of watching our children
blossom and learn.

Please. It's a personal request. Please.

Life is good.
~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:56:53 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2213


In a message dated 8/10/02 10:13:35 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< And I know I read somewhere that there's a 3rd account that's different
from
those 2 that's deeper into the Old Testament. >>


<A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fowl.html">From what
were the fowls created?</A>

This is about whether birds came out of the ocean or out of the ground.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fowl.html

<A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html">Were
plants created before or after humans?</A>

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html

<A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/humans.html">Were
humans created before or after the other a</A>nimals?

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/humans.html


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:01:32 -0400
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics?

on 8/10/02 1:30 AM, tonya wright at chatadict2t@... wrote:

> We are contemplating buying Hooked on Phonics for Brittany. I looked up
the
> info. on the official web site & it is $299.99 + 27.50 shipping &
handling.
> YIKES! Do you know of any other places we could buy it? If there was a
> store around that sold it at least we could save the shipping & handling.
> Also, do you know anyone who has used it?

Well, look at it this way. The ads make it look like it's fun for the kids.
And it might be. But how much are you willing to spend on a fun way to do
something that will happen naturally for free? How much would you have paid
for a fun program to help her to walk?

I think I ended up paying about $5. $20 for the 100 Easy Lessons which I
sold last year for about $15. (And it didn't work either because my daughter
had 0 interest.)

What you're really buying is:

1) a sense of peace that she'll learn to read. This is preying on groundless
fears. As an unschooler in an environment where reading is naturally fun and
useful she *will* learn to read. It may be tomorrow. It may be 6 years from
now. (Unless you put her in school where life isn't natural and there are
major road blocks to learning to read. (Like expecting her to do something
she isn't developmentally ready for yet.) So for parents with kids in school
the fears aren't quite so groundless.)

2) *Maybe* early reading. Maybe. Though I'd be more inclined to believe the
kids who read early with phonics programs are the ones who would have read
early to begin with. And though being able to read before school starts gets
cheered, what does it really mean? No one can tell the difference between an
adult who read at 3 and an adult who read at 7. (I'd extend that to 13 for
an unschooler but a later reader in school might be demoralized by the
intervention and end up not liking to read or be convinced he can't. Sandra
has been collecting stories of later readers at
http://sandradodd.com/reading I think the most important thing to realize in
terms of calming fears is that a 13 yo new reader is *not* 7 years behind.
They'll be indistinguishable from their peers pretty quickly.) Learning
through reading is *different* not better than learning by doing or learning
by watching. Unless you're in school where learning is *only* avialble
through reading and listening. Then otherwise endowed kids are severly
handicapped. That doesn't need to be true at home. We can adapt the
environment to the kid rather than the kid to the environment.

If you still think you'd like it, first check your library or through
interlibrary loan. Just ask your librarian to search. That should be free.
(Or a nominal fee. I think one library in our system charges a quarter for
each request.) Even if they don't have a regular system in place, most
libraries will call around and try to locate what you want.

There's some at http://www.half.com You'll need to read and ask questions
of the sellers and perhaps search the internet to figure out what you're
getting since some of the sets are a few years old. (And to make sure the
seller has listed his item under the correct heading!)

If you go to http://www.addall.com it will search 20 or so used book sites
(including half.com). It will be very helpful if you have the ISBN of the
one or ones you want since there's 15 of them and they're not listed by
publication date.

The full price one does have a 60 day money back guarantee. Not on the s&h
though. But *if* you get to keep the National Geographics on CD that comes
as a free gift, it might be worth it even if you never use it and just send
it back! ;-) (It's *way* not worth it if you don't send it back. You're much
better off getting it used and then reselling. You'll lose less money!)

Joyce



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:15:10 -0400
From: Deb <herbtea@...>
Subject: Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)


> Should we disband social services because once in a while a homeschoolien
> family is pressured? Should social services be a free market situation
too?
> Domestic violence and child abuse (sexual abuse, burning as punishment,
> broken limbs)--those are things I would like for the government to help
> prevent.

Governments don't PREVENT domestic violence or child abuse. How exactly
do you think a government would intervene before anything happened?

Court injunctions sometimes do it when it has gone to an extreme, but
the government never sees the inside of most households, and it should
stay that way!

My state, FLorida is notorious for its extremely ineffective social
services agency. THey keep changing the social service agency's name
(Dept. of Children and Families is what it is called now) so hopefully
people will forget the kids who were just murdered, neglected or hurt,
and keep funding them. On the other hand I have seen testimony by many,
many families whose lives were ruined by social service agencies who
tore them apart, ripped kids out of their parents home for no good
reason by their own opinions and put them into foster homes where they
were raped or abused and neglected.

BUt they change the name of their agency, rather than their
fundamentally flawed premise, that the government by intruding and
degrading the dignity and rights of its people can get them to "act
better". Do you advocate spanking and punishing your child and use
threats of that to increase their judgment? It's just that the
government finds it very difficult to control people in a positive way.
I think that is what you are asking for. Punishment (though it has its
place) does not control people - it smashes them. A better idea of WHAT
to do for people and how to define roles, and helping people help
themselves is what is needed. That is a slow hard way to go for it means
one-on-one communication and understanding and if you don't really have
any idea how to help someone, you don't conceive it is possible - but it
is.

Debbie

That

>
> So social services are part of what citizens and residents want. And we
> won't exist in societies without laws.
>
> Sandra
>


--
Director, Live Oak Academy
Visit our website http://www.newhealth.net/liveoak/

~Flexible Alternative Schooling for Families~


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:06:24 EDT
From: AlmondJoy721@...
Subject: Re: hooked on phonics and introduction


In a message dated 8/9/02 10:31:44 PM, [email protected]
writes:

<< Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:30:50 +0000
From: "tonya wright" <chatadict2t@...>
Subject: Hooked on phonics?

We are contemplating buying Hooked on Phonics for Brittany. I looked up the
info. on the official web site & it is $299.99 + 27.50 shipping & handling.
YIKES! Do you know of any other places we could buy it? If there was a
store around that sold it at least we could save the shipping & handling.
Also, do you know anyone who has used it?

Tonya
Brittany & Melody's Mommy
4/22/99 12/01/01

>>

Try Ebay they are many people trying to sell copies for at least half of
that
new price...I just checked www.ebay.com I have bought some used books
from ebay and got great deals.

I am Jessica from San Diego who would like to "unschool" (I hate the label).
I have been lurking for at least a month. I have not started any sort of
school or unschool at home as yet, unless one counts summer and just trying
to relax, but I am not sending my 12 year old back to public school this
fall. After years of arguing with his father, I have finally succeeded in
at least having him agree to let me try it at home. (divorce in progress
here) Their father does not trust that I can handle the situation without a
"facilitator" so I am probably going to sign up for a Charter School, and go
from there, at least it is in a little different direction. My son has
largely lost the joy of learning, although I see him doing things this
summer that seem like learning to me...which I would never mention to him.
He has never read for pleasure as a for instance. Maybe that will come,
maybe it won't. I really believe he needs a large break. I am hoping with
this charter school that we may be able to choose a "curriculum" and do
basically what we want, yet documenting it in a way that appears to follow
said curriculum.
I have two older sons who went through the PS system. My seventeen year
old
is doing fine by most people standards, my twenty year old really would have
benefited from a completely different situation. I am feeling very guilty
for being so complacent for so many years.... and hope I can at least turn
my
youngest's life around.
Ideally, I would like to do away with any kind of system at all. I believe
systems of all kinds are largely a mistake.
I have enjoyed most of the posts on the list although some threads have
gotten a bit tedious for me only because there are an awful lot of posts to
read through. I am currently trying the digest version since I also belong
to a number of other groups. At least that way they are somewhat sorted.
I
have not been offended by anything. Keep up the great posts. I thank you
all for the lively discussions.
Jessica


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:19:04 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)


In a message dated 8/10/02 11:01:31 AM, herbtea@... writes:

<< Governments don't PREVENT domestic violence or child abuse. How exactly
do you think a government would intervene before anything happened? >>

I know of cases when the violence stopped at two or three instances.
And I've known of cases when nobody reported it and the violence went on and
on and on.

What if there was nobody to report it TO?

Florida has screwed some stuff up badly. I don't think disbanding social
services in Florida is the answer.

Sandra


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:21:39 -0000
From: "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@...>
Subject: christianity

"Let us just agree to disagree and leave it at that."

We obviously disagree....I wish you could back up your beliefs with
some truth or at the least a fact.
Is there anyone else you have spoken with/read/watched that purports
the view that Christianity is not a religion?
Do you/have you read any John Holt?
I am floored by the statements that you would not read or listen to
anyone about unschooling/parenting that weren't parent's themselves.

Ren



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:45:04 EDT
From: earthangel0329@...
Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics?

Hello all,

Just thought I would introduce myself, My name is Mary and I am a
homeschooling mom of 3 1/2 kids (#4 due in Sept). I have been lurking the
last few days and trying to keep up with the "friendly" banter.lol

Anyway just thought I would put in my opinion of the hooked on phonics
program. I bought this (at a garage sale) and tried it with my son. He is
very music oriented so I thought he would enjoy it. He listened to the
first
tape for about ten minutes and lost interest. We occasionally look through
the books but I don't think its worth the $300 I would have spent if I
purchased it new.

I guess I should have known when I bought it, it was still in the original
box with the receipt inside. I doubt the original owner used it for any
amount of time as well.

Anyway, hope that helps. Will probably go back to lurking for a while,
thanks for listening.

Mary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:52:07 -0600
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2213


>>It was driving me crazy before I forgot about it. And now you go and bring
>>it back up again. ;-)>>

Like one of those songs you just can't get out of your head, huh? You could
always Google it. ;-) Ka-ching! There goes Sandra's Google stock rising
again. <g>

Life is good.
~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:07:47 -0400
From: Deb <herbtea@...>
Subject: Re: Hell

Hey, Suzanna. I didn't know. I am always interested in different
religions. Which church is it that you are talking about? What a good
idea! Hell is where you have to spend all the rest of time with other
evil people.

Debbie

>>>>That depends on which Christian church you are talking about. The
church I belong to does not have the same concept of Hell as most
others. We don't believe in a literal firey pit. We do believe that
all of the evil people will spend eternity with each other though,
and never be around good people. I think that would be all the
punishment neccessary. And by evil people, we don't mean people who
believe differently than us, we mean really evil people like Hitler,
child molestors, murders, etc. You know, people who, by just about
any standard, would be considered evil.

-Suzanna


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:54:28 -0600
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: googling creation

HA! See, I knew Sandra would Google it! ;-)

Life is good.
~Mary


>From: SandraDodd@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2213
>Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:56:53 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 8/10/02 10:13:35 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
>
><< And I know I read somewhere that there's a 3rd account that's different
>from
>those 2 that's deeper into the Old Testament. >>
>
>
><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fowl.html">From what
>were the fowls created?</A>
>
>This is about whether birds came out of the ocean or out of the ground.
>http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fowl.html
>
><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html">Were
>plants created before or after humans?</A>
>
>http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/plants.html
>
><A HREF="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/humans.html">Were
>humans created before or after the other a</A>nimals?
>
>http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/humans.html


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:25:25 -0400
From: Deb <herbtea@...>
Subject: re Hell

>>>>I spend a significant amount of time writing to a young man in prison
for
selling drugs. His behavior led to the death of several people. He
grew up
in foster care, was beaten, told he was stupid and would never amount to
anything. Is he evil? I can't judge him.

<<<<I swear Jesus/Goddess/the Great I AM/Zeus must be wondering if we
will EVER
get it, EVER. I know I do.

Julie>>>>>

That is wisdom, Julie. Although I enjoyed Suzanna's post and wondered
which church said the rather different idea of hell she expressed, it
also occurred to me that worse than spending eternity in hell with evil
ones if you are evil, is spending eternity with evil people when you
aren't.... Earth in other words.
Or spending eternity with evil people who are really good inside and
could possibly be really themselves, and we all have acted in an
aberrated way worse than we wished at times.

Note: I say eternity and earth in the same sentence because I happen to
have the reality that there is not only one lifetime and we may have all
been doing this for a really, really long time.

I just volunteered to write to inmates in a correspondence course for
prisoners.

Debbie


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:26:00 -0600
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: hooked on phonics and introduction



>>I am Jessica from San Diego who would like to "unschool" (I hate the
>>label). I have been lurking for at least a month. I have not started any
>>sort of school or unschool at home as yet, unless one counts summer and
>>just trying to relax...>>

Welcome Jessica. Label or not, the best part of an unschooling lifestyle is
that IT ALL COUNTS! The learning continues. The mind keeps on thinking,
summer breaks and all. :o)

>>I really believe he needs a large break.>>

Absolutely. In homechooling/unschooling circles this break is called
"deschooling" and is always recommended. I've heard the guideline of one
month for every year of school. Like everything else of course, this is not
a rule, but a suggestion or guideline based on experience.
>>I am feeling very guilty for being so complacent for so many years.... and
>>hope I can at least turn my youngest's life around.>>

While you all deschool, you can also work on forgiving yourself. Lots of us
have felt the way you do. You've done the best you could with the
information you had. Now you have more information and you're making
different choices for your youngest. Try not to let guilt get in the way of
a joyful today.

Life is good.
~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:39:32 EDT
From: PSoroosh@...
Subject: school financing and economics debates

<<Parents -- not politicians or government employees -- should choose how
their own money should be spent for their own children's education.
Nobody has a right to anyone else's property.
>>>

Ned --

You have apparently not read enough economics to have understood the
concepts
of public goods and positive/negative externalities and some of the causes
and solutions to market failure. Neither have most of the other people here,
so it is difficult for them to counter even some of the most simplistic
arguments, without the ability to draw upon and articulate those somewhat
more complex concepts. It doesn't make you right, it just makes it
frustrating and annoying to watch the process.

This is not a good place to argue economics - people are not here because
they are interested in that. If I thought they were, I'd jump in and provide
plenty of arguments, based on sound economic reasoning, for why it DOES make
sense, in a mixed economy, such as that of the United States, for some of
our
tax dollars to be used for educating other people's children and for a
number
of other purposes.

However, like I said, people did not COME to this list to argue economics,
not even the economics of public school financing. A really good place for
that kind of argument, if you want to do it with other homeschoolers, is the
NHEN-Legislative yahoogroups list.

Please EVERYONE ELSE WHO IS NOT INTERESTED --- the way list topics get
perpetuated is by people responding to them - you vote with your own posts
<G>
. If you want these kinds of threads to die a natural death, stop responding
to them, no matter how difficult that may be. Those who ARE interested and
want to continue - please make the subject line clear so that the rest of us
can delete the messages more easily. Thank you.

--Pam Sorooshian


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:02:23 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: googling creation


In a message dated 8/10/02 11:55:29 AM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< HA! See, I knew Sandra would Google it! ;-) >>

I kinda skepticized it. (Almost like capsizing.)

In my favorite places I have
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
the Skeptics Annotated Bible

and on that site are search features and a list of contradictions within the
Bible.

One thing all Baptists are taught and repeat ad nauseum is that the Bible is
perfect and never contradicts itself.

The list of contradictions on that site is up to 312 now.

The problem with TOTALLY absolute statements is that one exception makes
the
whole thing false. They worship the book itself, pretty much. And they're
always telling people to read it! Read the whole thing! Read every night!
If I hadn't read it, I could have maintained the facade with them that it
answers any question anyone might have, and it never contradicts itself.

It's a good religion for people who want life to be simple and who want to
hang around with others who say they read the whole Bible, but really don't.
Or maybe they just sound out the words without going for comprehension.

Sandra



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:21:47 EDT
From: Dnowens@...
Subject: Re: Comics and cartoon unschoolers

In a message dated 8/10/02 8:58:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
liza@... writes:


> Who else would you nominate?
>
> Liza, aka TOON MAMA!

I would nominate all the kids on Rocket Power, I don't think I have seen one
episode about school yet. Those kids are all over the place, playing various
sports, cleaning up the beach, building forts, helping Dad run the hamburger
stand, having their own enterprises. If they aren't hsers, they should be!

Zim from Invader Zim. Even though he is an alien sent to take over the
earth,
and he goes to school to do this, he would make a great unschooler. He has
made his own home, he even made his own Ward-and-June-like parents/robots.
Also Dib from Invader Zim, he is the kid who *thinks* he knows that Zim is
an
alien and is always out to prove it. This child is constantly learning. He
uses all the science things around his house. (His Dad is a scientist, who
is
always at work, the kids don't see him much.) I nominate him for gifted
homeschooler, he would be the one we read about, in the paper, as the local
boy who won the National Spelling Bee, or the Science Fair.

Timmy from Fairly Odd Parents, would really benefit from unschooling!

Most likely to be Christian Homeschoolers?
Bobby Hill from King of the Hill
Ned Flanders kids from The Simpsons

Most likely to benefit from Unschooling?
Bobby Hill from King of the Hill
Hank Hill from King of the Hill

~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:29:25 -0400
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
Subject: Re: Throwing Money

Freedom and Choice
Go Hand in Hand

(please copy and distribute -- no attribution needed)

The government is failing to educate our children. In (name your state), the
failure follows the national pattern. The school system is not doing its
job. Taxpayers¹ money is being wasted while the children are being denied an
education. More money will not change it. Sending kids to suburban schools
won¹t change it because all the public schools in the state are run by the
state Department of Education by the same rules, methods and mandates and
all offer the same poor quality schooling. It's bad by design.

The public schools are failing everywhere because they don¹t have
effective programs; they have no standards and no goals; they use inferior
methods for instruction (i.e., ³Whole Language² a proven failure instead of
Phonics a proven success); their bad teachers are virtually impossible to
fire thanks to the power of the teachers¹ union; the system has a captive
audience of consumers instead of parents with choices. The situation allows
the schools to fail without losing any customers or funding. In fact, the
worse the schools perform, the higher their funding gets. The Hartford CT
schools prove that -- they are among the nation¹s worst, and yet their per
pupil cost is among the nation¹s highest.

Government school systems are bureaucratic monopolies with one constant
objective: to enlarge their budgets. Their structure and practices guarantee
poor performance. There are no incentives to improve the schools; no rewards
for good teaching and no penalties for incompetence. The system can blame
its customers and ³society² for its own failures -- that¹s convenient but
dishonest -- while its cry remains, ³Give us more money.² Taxpayers are its
captives; the children are its victims.

Ned Vare



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:29:27 -0400
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
Subject: Re: 2222 Thanks Joanna

on 8/9/02 9:46 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

Joanna writes:
> Ideally we should get the money for our children that is being spent on
other
>citizens children,<

Ned sez:
Yes, with this further thought: It's OUR money to start with.
Ideally, we should (be allowed to) keep the money in the first place. No one
should be forced to pay for other people's children. If we help others, it
should be because we want to, not because our home will be confiscated if we
don't. This is America...do you have the right to take your neighbor's
property? If not, what gives the govenment such a right. The government was
created to protect our rights, not violate them.

Joanna writes, concerning vouchers:
> I chose to take my children out of the system and i don't want
> anything else to do with it. Asking for our fair share comes with a
> whole lot more than we are bargaining for. there is no getting
> around that.
> Joanna

Ned answers:
I totally agree. No one should be required to have anything to do with (or
be forced to pay for) anything they do not use or don't approve of. That
would be tyranny.

There are only two methods of dealing with people: Voluntarily, or by force.
Public schools get their funding by force -- the schools use a third party
(government) to collect their money for them by force.

The voucher movement is a partial measure in recovering an element of choice
for parents, but the idea still leaves the fund collecting to the state and
its force, and that will be the next big issue -- making funding voluntary.

Meanwhile, if vouchers give just a few children the means of escaping from
horrible schools, then they get my support. Ultimately, the only fair
solution is for all school funding to be supported by the parents who choose
them, with a variety of private scholarship methods to help needy families.

While the government schools are getting more and more oppressive and
despotic, there is a balancing movement, such as homeschooling and a growth
of private schooling, and growing awareness of the needs of growing
children. We are an integral part of that counter balance.

Ned Vare
crazy libertarian ranter



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:29:27 -0400
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
Subject: Re: 2223 -- the god thread

on 8/10/02 1:30 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 03:04:23 -0000
> From: "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@...>
> Subject: christianity
>
> "Christianity comes from Christ, religion is man made."

Ned carries on:::

Who knew that this was a religion group....? Well, so be it. I'll give it a
shot. (it will tie in, just wait)

The Bible tells the story of the evolution of man's perception of, and
relationship to, the supernatural -- god -- the "greater force" behind
worldly things, and the spiritual life, so to speak. "It's all in God's
hands," as they(we)
say.

Early on, man desperately needed explanations for things that were, and
still often are, beyond our comprehension.

Faced with often overwhelming natural forces, we imagine an all powerful
spirit that controls the world, indeed, the universe, and in the process,
controls our puny existence.

Early "gods" were the very forces of nature...Zeus, Mars, etc. There were
graven images of animals, tree worshippers, sacrifices (murders) to show our
fear of the forces of "heaven." Kings became gods to their people.

Humans have, is seems, always had a need to ascribe anthropomorphic
qualities and motives to the forces of nature and to the nether world and to
the firmament. Thus, some gave their god a male human form and placed "him"
in the heavens. "He" was to be the good (god) guy who would protect them, if
they obeyed certain rules. And to explain all the "bad" stuff that happens,
they created another guy (bad guy) and he lived, they were sure, underneath
everything.....in Hell.

All this imagery has been incredibly useful for financial institutions such
as churces. The threat of Hell and damnation, along with the promise of
someday sitting on the knee of a benevolent "creator" comprise the twin
enticements for supporting a huge corps of therapists called clergy. (Hmm,
sounds like what the public schools do to create their brand of conformity,
"Sit still and be quiet, and you'll get As; but if you don't we'll drug you
into a stupor)

But the Bible goes further, because man is still evolving. Man's view of
"god" changed over the centuries to a more and more enlightened idea. That
advanced thinking is described in the New Testament. For my money, Jesus
(and a few others, like Buddha) led the way out of the era of nature and
animal worship into an era in which god is seen simply as man's highest view
of himself. Jesus called it Love. Christianity changed everything, or, as
Ren said,
>> turn[ed} the status quo on it's head.<<
Religion has become a personal thing, instead of a group thing, even though
many people still enjoy group rituals and celebrations or their "truth."
There's even a joke, "Hey, I saw God, and she's black !" -- talk about
upsetting the apple cart...

So, today, we don't grovel in front of a carved statue of a beast, we don't
pray (beg) to an unknowable "man" in the sky, but we grow (if we can) in an
understanding and demonstration of our own highest ethics and best
attributes. If we read the Bible (which I used to but don't these days) we
learn that we are created in the image and likeness of God.

What "good news" (the meaning of "gospel') that is! If we can believe that,
then we know that we are not born as "sinners," but with all the qualities
we need in order to perfect our lives. It means there is no need to beg for
favors, no need to pay for forgiveness, no need to believe that anyone or
anything has power over us or is god's go-between. (Martin Luther drew that
line in the sand for us, saying, in effect, that we could speak driectly to
god, if we wanted to. Wow, what a breakthrough)

We have examples of people in several cultures coming to similar
conclusions. Man has evolved much since the days of cow worship and man
worship. Today, there need be no intermediary (priest) between man and
whatever we view as a creative/benevolent spirit, or god.

The same evolution took place in nations...America was founded on the still
relatively new (in 1750) idea that the individual is more important than the
group, and our government was viewed by the framers as the mechanism to
protect individual citizens from harm, whether from other individuals or
groups. While government schooling is the last vestige of socialist ideas
(top-down control, or subsumption of individuals to the group),
homeschooling is helping our country to overcome that oppression and evolve
to a higher level of self- and universal awareness.

Ned Vare



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:29:27 -0400
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
Subject: Re: 2223 Separation of School and State

on 8/10/02 1:30 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

>
> Message: 13
> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 20:33:13 -0700

> From: Betsy <ecsamhill@...>
> I don't have it bookmarked, but there is a separation of schools and
> state website..... They
> advocate eliminating public schooling.
>
> Betsy

Thanks, Betsy. Let me correct one thing, though.
The Separation of School and State Alliance (www.sepschool.org) does not
advocate eliminating public schooling.

It advocates the elimination of FORCED FUNDING of schools by government. In
other words, public schools, like all others, should continue to exist so
long as there are people who are willing to pay for them voluntarily. That
would mean, of course, that those schools are providing a service that lots
of people actually want.

Today, there is in the ballpark of $400B annually spent on the public
schools. If that amount was not forced to be paid by citizens to the one
public school system, it would remain in the hands of those citizens who
could spend it for any school they would choose for their kids.

There are dozens of private funding programs today that help families afford
alternative schools for their kids. Many more such programs would exist if
the tax funding of schools ended. And with that, many new schools would open
that would satisfy the varied needs of our diverse population.

Ned Vare

Ned Vare



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:31:10 -0400
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare <nedvare@...>
Subject: Re: 2223 -- YIKES! !

on 8/10/02 1:30 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> We are contemplating buying Hooked on Phonics for Brittany. I looked up
the
> info. on the official web site & it is $299.99 + 27.50 shipping &
handling.
> YIKES!

Ned agrees. They've sold millions, so surely there are used ones available.
Maybe your support group can buy it together, if you want it new. Otherwise,
try advertising your need in classifieds or a radio swap program. Those have
been helpful to us at times.
PLUS, if you get it from a former user, they might give you tips about it.

There are plenty of books available, from libraries too, that show us the
basics of phonics. You can create your own games once you know what phonics
is about, and how simple it is...up, pup, cup, cut, etc.







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/