Re: 2222 -- Free People, or not Free?
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/9/02 9:46 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
You are right to correct me -- they did not simply "not" submit a plan, they
refused to, on the principle that they don't use "plans." (curricula)
OK, so my point was that the state in MA puts requirements on homeschoolers
that some homeschoolers fulfill by lying about their plans. The Bryants did
not accept forced lying, preferring to be truthful and to expect decent
treatment by the state authorities. Instead, the state refused to accept
honesty and insisted that they lie in order to be free.
Are Americans in Massachusetts free people, or not? Are you telling us that
regulations created by one-size-fits-all bureaucrats are fine, just because
they are "easy to fill out"? Whose side are you on?
The Bryants are taking one small step, at huge personal expense and risk, in
order to help ALL homeschoolers everywhere, and you say they should cave in
to a bad regulation supported by a vindictive and stupid judge?
We're talking about a case which reveals exactly what I've been talking
about -- the government hassle of people for the "crime" of non-conformance
to bad regulation. This is what homeschoolers everywhere are faced with if
they (we) don't stand up for our rights to raise our children on our own
terms and not cowtow to idiotic rules that attempt to chain us.
Please restore my faith here. Explain your stance.
Ned Vare
[email protected] wrote:
>Joyce wrote:
> Message: 23
> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 21:44:06 -0400
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: MA court case (was Re: 2219 Death from Religion)
> The Bryants fully realized what they were doing when they refused to submitNed asks:
> an education plan. They claimed that the school committee's process of
> approval runs counter to their unschooling appraoch.
You are right to correct me -- they did not simply "not" submit a plan, they
refused to, on the principle that they don't use "plans." (curricula)
OK, so my point was that the state in MA puts requirements on homeschoolers
that some homeschoolers fulfill by lying about their plans. The Bryants did
not accept forced lying, preferring to be truthful and to expect decent
treatment by the state authorities. Instead, the state refused to accept
honesty and insisted that they lie in order to be free.
Are Americans in Massachusetts free people, or not? Are you telling us that
regulations created by one-size-fits-all bureaucrats are fine, just because
they are "easy to fill out"? Whose side are you on?
The Bryants are taking one small step, at huge personal expense and risk, in
order to help ALL homeschoolers everywhere, and you say they should cave in
to a bad regulation supported by a vindictive and stupid judge?
We're talking about a case which reveals exactly what I've been talking
about -- the government hassle of people for the "crime" of non-conformance
to bad regulation. This is what homeschoolers everywhere are faced with if
they (we) don't stand up for our rights to raise our children on our own
terms and not cowtow to idiotic rules that attempt to chain us.
Please restore my faith here. Explain your stance.
Ned Vare
[email protected]
Joyce and Ned, I unschool and send into the state what they want to hear and
do what I want anyway. Yep, I'm not free. DeWes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
do what I want anyway. Yep, I'm not free. DeWes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/10/02 10:11 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
my home? Have you compared my unschooling and my ed plan? Carol Narigon's
letter says exactly what I'm doing. So what would be the purpose of
representing what *I* and what all MA unschoolers do as a lie? (Have you
been to their homes too? Have you seen their ed plans?)
How do these broadbrush misrepresentations of MA homeschooers and the
Bryants help anyone here unschool better? Your rhetoric may make for some
wonderfully scary, heroic stories around the campfire but in the light of
day they don't line up with the real live flesh and blood people I know.
evil state? Not. People taking a stand for something they believed in? I
hope so. But taking a stand or believing in something doesn't make someone
automatically right.
It's no where near as noble to gather the state's homeschoolers together to
get the regulations changed, is it? It's the people who get shot who get
cheered and held up as heroes. *I'm* not cheering. Though I do cheer for the
quiet ones in the state group who are politcally active for homeschooling.
think there was a general feeling they may have harmed more than they
helped.
You're basically saying the homeschoolers of MA are too blind, ignorant and
like scared sheep to be able to understand the smoke that's in their own
state. That you who see so much clearer know that every puff of smoke is
hiding a ranging inferno about to burst free. That insults every politically
active homeschooler in MA.
Let us MA people fight our own fights without underinformed inflammatory
commentary from passers by, okay? Or if you feel your words need to be
heard, then feel free to post at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MAhomeschoolers/
(And by now you should have read the "A gentle nudge ..." post. It might
help to reread it if you still feel continuing this would help my daughter
explore the world better, or would help someone who wants that Saxon 5/6 to
spend her money on something that would bring joy to her son.)
Joyce
> OK, so my point was that the state in MA puts requirements on homeschoolersYou imply I lie when I send in my ed plan. How do you know? Have you been to
> that some homeschoolers fulfill by lying about their plans.
my home? Have you compared my unschooling and my ed plan? Carol Narigon's
letter says exactly what I'm doing. So what would be the purpose of
representing what *I* and what all MA unschoolers do as a lie? (Have you
been to their homes too? Have you seen their ed plans?)
How do these broadbrush misrepresentations of MA homeschooers and the
Bryants help anyone here unschool better? Your rhetoric may make for some
wonderfully scary, heroic stories around the campfire but in the light of
day they don't line up with the real live flesh and blood people I know.
> The Bryants didAgain, inflamatory and misrepresentative. Noble homeschoolers against the
> not accept forced lying, preferring to be truthful and to expect decent
> treatment by the state authorities. Instead, the state refused to accept
> honesty and insisted that they lie in order to be free.
evil state? Not. People taking a stand for something they believed in? I
hope so. But taking a stand or believing in something doesn't make someone
automatically right.
It's no where near as noble to gather the state's homeschoolers together to
get the regulations changed, is it? It's the people who get shot who get
cheered and held up as heroes. *I'm* not cheering. Though I do cheer for the
quiet ones in the state group who are politcally active for homeschooling.
> The Bryants are taking one small step, at huge personal expense and risk, inFunny, they didn't ask me if I thought that was a good way to help. And I
> order to help ALL homeschoolers everywhere, and you say they should cave in
> to a bad regulation supported by a vindictive and stupid judge?
think there was a general feeling they may have harmed more than they
helped.
You're basically saying the homeschoolers of MA are too blind, ignorant and
like scared sheep to be able to understand the smoke that's in their own
state. That you who see so much clearer know that every puff of smoke is
hiding a ranging inferno about to burst free. That insults every politically
active homeschooler in MA.
Let us MA people fight our own fights without underinformed inflammatory
commentary from passers by, okay? Or if you feel your words need to be
heard, then feel free to post at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MAhomeschoolers/
(And by now you should have read the "A gentle nudge ..." post. It might
help to reread it if you still feel continuing this would help my daughter
explore the world better, or would help someone who wants that Saxon 5/6 to
spend her money on something that would bring joy to her son.)
Joyce
zenmomma *
>>Please restore my faith here. Explain your stance.Please, please, please Ned. Please take this particular discussion off-list.
>
>Ned Vare>>
Please let's move the discussion back towatds the positives of unschooling.
Please let's share the joy and fun and beauty of watching our children
blossom and learn.
Please. It's a personal request. Please.
Life is good.
~Mary
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[email protected]
In a message dated 8/10/02 9:09:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
nedvare@... writes:
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nedvare@... writes:
> Joyce wrote:But how is submitting an educational plan anti-unschooling? How is it lying?
> > The Bryants fully realized what they were doing when they refused to
> submit
> > an education plan. They claimed that the school committee's process of
> > approval runs counter to their unschooling appraoch.
>
> Ned asks:
> You are right to correct me -- they did not simply "not" submit a plan, they
> refused to, on the principle that they don't use "plans." (curricula)
>
> OK, so my point was that the state in MA puts requirements on homeschoolers
> that some homeschoolers fulfill by lying about their plans. The Bryants did
> not accept forced lying, preferring to be truthful and to expect decent
> treatment by the state authorities. Instead, the state refused to accept
> honesty and insisted that they lie in order to be free.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]