Re: 2207 - For your own good, stay ignorant
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
Paula writes:
One of the many sad results of government schooling is total gullibility.
The forcible prevention of homeschooling is a good example of Fascism in
action. It is supremely ironic that anyone would give such an excuse for the
limitation or elimination of individual educational freedoms. It tells us
just how dishonest government is. The true motive, of course, is total
control of the population -- the very goal of Fascism -- never an
enlightened populace.
Germany was once considered the epitome of an educated people. The US
government sent hundreds of "scholars" (under Horace Mann) over there in the
19th century to examine its schools and copy the system as the politicians
planned our universal schooling system.
Prussia, which became Germany, had been badly defeated by Napoleon and the
reason was that Prussian soldiers were mercenaries (free thinking) while the
French had been indoctrinated in patriotism and trained to fight, not for
mere money, but for their fatherland. Germany wanted to emulate the French
system of turning out good soldiers, not educated citizens.
The Prussian/German schools were designed to teach obedience and uniformity,
and their goal was to turn out soldiers and factory workers. The result was
a fine-tuned war machine and an incredibly disciplined, but "inside the box"
type of thinking and acting. The country was "educated" to become a nation
so obedient that its government could employ many millions of them in the
carefully planned murder of six million of mostly its own citizens -- their
very neighbors.
To this day, no one dreams of jay walking in Germany, even on an empty
street. As I see it, Germans will need many more generations to overcome
their unspeakable shame at being such obedient, horrific sheep.
Growing up, I knew a man from Austria who told of the "old (Prussian) army."
There, the motto was, "Let the horse think !" In other words, "Do what
you're told -- don't think for yourself !"
American politicians, arm in arm with industrial tycoons, wanted just such
a school system, by which they could fill the factories and military ranks
with dependable, predictable people. The school system was the government's
mechanism for turning a diverse population of independent farmers,
craftsmen, immigrants and freed slaves into a uniform mass of workers for
repetitive tasks. The process was the homogenization of America. It's still
going on, of course.
Today, that part of the process has the name, "School To Work," whereby the
schools act as employment agencies for the students, following orders and
filling quotas set by the US Dept of Labor, channeling students into certain
(mostly menial) jobs and giving "Certificates of Mastery" instead of
academic diplomas to the students who conform. The goal in this is to force
all children into the system, and re-capture all homeschoolers for the state
treadmills. Children are seen by the school system as economic "resources"
to be used for government purposes.
Before about 1840, America's schools were locally controlled, run by and
for the benefit of the families and the larger community, and their purpose
was to make sure that the children learned the basic skills plus, in most
cases, especially in early New England, the gospel of the major christian
congregation in town. That was before the Constitution which separated
church and state.
Gradually, government schooling became the norm. Since everyone was required
to pay for it, it became more and more accepted, but not without resistance.
The catholics didn't like the secular nature of the schools, and wanted
schools that taught their children according to their beliefs. The schism
caused the Catholic Riots in Philadelphia, and led to that church setting up
its own private school system.
Today, the state-run schools are controlled from Washington. Local control
is now a myth kept alive by lying politicians. "The Blob" (the name for the
interlocking education bureaucracy) is still trying to create a homogeneous,
predictable, obedient mass of workers/spenders/taxpayers who will support
the millions of unproductive activities that are promoted in the schools and
elsewhere. Heck, we can't have actual educated people when there's so
little for them to do -- they'll go crazy. We need simple-minded people by
the millions who don't know what they're missing and who feel too dumb even
to teach their kids any more than elementary skills. (That was, in so many
words, announced by the first US commissioner of education at the turn of
the 20th century. See JT Gatto's, "The Guerilla Curriculum)
The states have joined with the teacher unions to produce an almost seamless
bureaucratic web that controls not just the children, but their families and
communities. The schools have also become centers for medical "services" and
psychological intrusions into the personal lives of all citizens. The
Prussian dream of total control is becoming a reality in America,
compliments of your local "public" school. And we even pay for it.
Ned Vare
> My understanding is that hsing is illegal in Germany to prevent the rise ofNed responds:
> fascist or neo-nazi groups rising again.
One of the many sad results of government schooling is total gullibility.
The forcible prevention of homeschooling is a good example of Fascism in
action. It is supremely ironic that anyone would give such an excuse for the
limitation or elimination of individual educational freedoms. It tells us
just how dishonest government is. The true motive, of course, is total
control of the population -- the very goal of Fascism -- never an
enlightened populace.
Germany was once considered the epitome of an educated people. The US
government sent hundreds of "scholars" (under Horace Mann) over there in the
19th century to examine its schools and copy the system as the politicians
planned our universal schooling system.
Prussia, which became Germany, had been badly defeated by Napoleon and the
reason was that Prussian soldiers were mercenaries (free thinking) while the
French had been indoctrinated in patriotism and trained to fight, not for
mere money, but for their fatherland. Germany wanted to emulate the French
system of turning out good soldiers, not educated citizens.
The Prussian/German schools were designed to teach obedience and uniformity,
and their goal was to turn out soldiers and factory workers. The result was
a fine-tuned war machine and an incredibly disciplined, but "inside the box"
type of thinking and acting. The country was "educated" to become a nation
so obedient that its government could employ many millions of them in the
carefully planned murder of six million of mostly its own citizens -- their
very neighbors.
To this day, no one dreams of jay walking in Germany, even on an empty
street. As I see it, Germans will need many more generations to overcome
their unspeakable shame at being such obedient, horrific sheep.
Growing up, I knew a man from Austria who told of the "old (Prussian) army."
There, the motto was, "Let the horse think !" In other words, "Do what
you're told -- don't think for yourself !"
American politicians, arm in arm with industrial tycoons, wanted just such
a school system, by which they could fill the factories and military ranks
with dependable, predictable people. The school system was the government's
mechanism for turning a diverse population of independent farmers,
craftsmen, immigrants and freed slaves into a uniform mass of workers for
repetitive tasks. The process was the homogenization of America. It's still
going on, of course.
Today, that part of the process has the name, "School To Work," whereby the
schools act as employment agencies for the students, following orders and
filling quotas set by the US Dept of Labor, channeling students into certain
(mostly menial) jobs and giving "Certificates of Mastery" instead of
academic diplomas to the students who conform. The goal in this is to force
all children into the system, and re-capture all homeschoolers for the state
treadmills. Children are seen by the school system as economic "resources"
to be used for government purposes.
Before about 1840, America's schools were locally controlled, run by and
for the benefit of the families and the larger community, and their purpose
was to make sure that the children learned the basic skills plus, in most
cases, especially in early New England, the gospel of the major christian
congregation in town. That was before the Constitution which separated
church and state.
Gradually, government schooling became the norm. Since everyone was required
to pay for it, it became more and more accepted, but not without resistance.
The catholics didn't like the secular nature of the schools, and wanted
schools that taught their children according to their beliefs. The schism
caused the Catholic Riots in Philadelphia, and led to that church setting up
its own private school system.
Today, the state-run schools are controlled from Washington. Local control
is now a myth kept alive by lying politicians. "The Blob" (the name for the
interlocking education bureaucracy) is still trying to create a homogeneous,
predictable, obedient mass of workers/spenders/taxpayers who will support
the millions of unproductive activities that are promoted in the schools and
elsewhere. Heck, we can't have actual educated people when there's so
little for them to do -- they'll go crazy. We need simple-minded people by
the millions who don't know what they're missing and who feel too dumb even
to teach their kids any more than elementary skills. (That was, in so many
words, announced by the first US commissioner of education at the turn of
the 20th century. See JT Gatto's, "The Guerilla Curriculum)
The states have joined with the teacher unions to produce an almost seamless
bureaucratic web that controls not just the children, but their families and
communities. The schools have also become centers for medical "services" and
psychological intrusions into the personal lives of all citizens. The
Prussian dream of total control is becoming a reality in America,
compliments of your local "public" school. And we even pay for it.
Ned Vare
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/7/02 11:41:09 PM, nedvare@... writes:
<< One of the many sad results of government schooling is total gullibility.
<<The forcible prevention of homeschooling is a good example of Fascism in
action. It is supremely ironic that anyone would give such an excuse for the
limitation or elimination of individual educational freedoms. >>
Germany doesn't even fly its own national flag except where the president is.
My German friend Wolfgang Marquardt said simply "It makes the neighbors
nervous." There is huge guilt among the German citizenry about the sins of
their parents. People not even born until after WWII have spent their whole
lives feeling criminal.
The culture (not the government) of Germany and Scandinavia is very involved
with scheduling and cleaning up and cooperation. To overlay American
sensibilties on their motives is just ethnocentricism.
<<It tells us
just how dishonest government is. The true motive, of course, is total
control of the population -- the very goal of Fascism -- never an
enlightened populace.>>
Is there *ANY* possibility you could take a break from insulting the
readership here with overblown summaries of the horrors of government and
schools?
<<The school system was the government's
mechanism for turning a diverse population of independent farmers,
craftsmen, immigrants and freed slaves into a uniform mass of workers for
repetitive tasks. The process was the homogenization of America. It's still
going on, of course.
<<Before about 1840, America's schools were locally controlled, run by and
for the benefit of the families and the larger community, and their purpose
was to make sure that the children learned the basic skills plus, in most
cases, especially in early New England, the gospel of the major christian
congregation in town. That was before the Constitution which separated
church and state.>>
I'm glad you've expanded your history of schools to before the industrial
revolution. Now please get clear about how long the constitution had been in
efffect before 1840. If, before the constitution, an English colony based on
a religion had schools which included the teachings of that religion, how are
you faulting them?
Maybe there's a libertarian list on which these rants would be more
appropriate.
Sandra
<< One of the many sad results of government schooling is total gullibility.
>>Ned, this is hugely insulting.
<<The forcible prevention of homeschooling is a good example of Fascism in
action. It is supremely ironic that anyone would give such an excuse for the
limitation or elimination of individual educational freedoms. >>
Germany doesn't even fly its own national flag except where the president is.
My German friend Wolfgang Marquardt said simply "It makes the neighbors
nervous." There is huge guilt among the German citizenry about the sins of
their parents. People not even born until after WWII have spent their whole
lives feeling criminal.
The culture (not the government) of Germany and Scandinavia is very involved
with scheduling and cleaning up and cooperation. To overlay American
sensibilties on their motives is just ethnocentricism.
<<It tells us
just how dishonest government is. The true motive, of course, is total
control of the population -- the very goal of Fascism -- never an
enlightened populace.>>
Is there *ANY* possibility you could take a break from insulting the
readership here with overblown summaries of the horrors of government and
schools?
<<The school system was the government's
mechanism for turning a diverse population of independent farmers,
craftsmen, immigrants and freed slaves into a uniform mass of workers for
repetitive tasks. The process was the homogenization of America. It's still
going on, of course.
>>Not very well, obviously.
<<Before about 1840, America's schools were locally controlled, run by and
for the benefit of the families and the larger community, and their purpose
was to make sure that the children learned the basic skills plus, in most
cases, especially in early New England, the gospel of the major christian
congregation in town. That was before the Constitution which separated
church and state.>>
I'm glad you've expanded your history of schools to before the industrial
revolution. Now please get clear about how long the constitution had been in
efffect before 1840. If, before the constitution, an English colony based on
a religion had schools which included the teachings of that religion, how are
you faulting them?
Maybe there's a libertarian list on which these rants would be more
appropriate.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 8/8/02 8:28 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
I don't see it as very welcoming to those investigating homeschooling to
paint everyone who is not homeschooling as an evil government employee or as
a gullible soul duped by them. It sets up a wall. Walls are comforting to
those on the inside. They can provide a sense of comraderie that we've
separated ourselves from the enemy. But walls also say those on the outside
are not good enough to be one of us.
We're all -- schoolers and homeschoolers -- just people doing the best we
can with the information we have. Unschoolers have information about how
children learn that the rest of the world doesn't. That doesn't make us
superior people. It just means we know something that others don't. And we
can use that to help others help their children or use that to bolster our
own egos for not being as gullible as everyone else.
Joyce
> To overlay AmericanThank you for this Sandra.
> sensibilties on their motives is just ethnocentricism.
I don't see it as very welcoming to those investigating homeschooling to
paint everyone who is not homeschooling as an evil government employee or as
a gullible soul duped by them. It sets up a wall. Walls are comforting to
those on the inside. They can provide a sense of comraderie that we've
separated ourselves from the enemy. But walls also say those on the outside
are not good enough to be one of us.
We're all -- schoolers and homeschoolers -- just people doing the best we
can with the information we have. Unschoolers have information about how
children learn that the rest of the world doesn't. That doesn't make us
superior people. It just means we know something that others don't. And we
can use that to help others help their children or use that to bolster our
own egos for not being as gullible as everyone else.
Joyce
[email protected]
I would also ask that we stop bashing schools, I have a son in public school
and it is working out better for him than being home. He chose to attend
school. Should I fault him for doing so? Even if it isn't what *I* would do.
Having an Unschooling philosophy means that I must offer true educational
freedom to my children. I have to give them ALL the options that they are
able to understand.
Please, this may be hurtful to many.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
and it is working out better for him than being home. He chose to attend
school. Should I fault him for doing so? Even if it isn't what *I* would do.
Having an Unschooling philosophy means that I must offer true educational
freedom to my children. I have to give them ALL the options that they are
able to understand.
Please, this may be hurtful to many.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
dabejorysmom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
<nedvare@n...> wrote:
this "school-to-work program" is in force here. I don't know what
name they actually call it. One of our neighbors has a daughter that
was in it. She is not very strong academically so she was put in the
program that trains you for a job instead of preparing you for
college. They told her that when she graduates she will not get a
diploma, but a certificate instead. They also told her that she would
never be able to go to college. My son and she have become good
friends. He told her that he thinks that is illegal for them to make
her go to school for 4 years, let her graduate, but not give her a
diploma. I tried to talk her mom into homeschooling her, but she
wouldn't do it. She is one of those mom's who can't stand having her
kids around. She thinks I am crazy to want to homeschool. However,
after a few discussions with the daughter, the daughter decided that
she wanted out of that training program and wants a real diploma so
that she can go to college. So, she told her counselor at the school
to change her schedule this year so that she can take academic
classes instead. They did it. I told her that all sorts of people who
never even finished high school can go to college. But she believed
them when they told her that she would not be able to go to college
without an academic diploma.
Suzanna
<nedvare@n...> wrote:
>whereby the
> Today, that part of the process has the name, "School To Work,"
> schools act as employment agencies for the students, followingorders and
> filling quotas set by the US Dept of Labor, channeling studentsinto certain
> (mostly menial) jobs and giving "Certificates of Mastery" instead ofto force
> academic diplomas to the students who conform. The goal in this is
> all children into the system, and re-capture all homeschoolers forthe state
> treadmills. Children are seen by the school system aseconomic "resources"
> to be used for government purposes.We just recently moved to Mississippi. I have learned that
this "school-to-work program" is in force here. I don't know what
name they actually call it. One of our neighbors has a daughter that
was in it. She is not very strong academically so she was put in the
program that trains you for a job instead of preparing you for
college. They told her that when she graduates she will not get a
diploma, but a certificate instead. They also told her that she would
never be able to go to college. My son and she have become good
friends. He told her that he thinks that is illegal for them to make
her go to school for 4 years, let her graduate, but not give her a
diploma. I tried to talk her mom into homeschooling her, but she
wouldn't do it. She is one of those mom's who can't stand having her
kids around. She thinks I am crazy to want to homeschool. However,
after a few discussions with the daughter, the daughter decided that
she wanted out of that training program and wants a real diploma so
that she can go to college. So, she told her counselor at the school
to change her schedule this year so that she can take academic
classes instead. They did it. I told her that all sorts of people who
never even finished high school can go to college. But she believed
them when they told her that she would not be able to go to college
without an academic diploma.
Suzanna
Tia Leschke
>You're saying that Paula is gulllible? Good way to cut off debate.
>
>One of the many sad results of government schooling is total gullibility.
>The forcible prevention of homeschooling is a good example of Fascism inGermany is just one of *most* European countries that don't allow
>action. It is supremely ironic that anyone would give such an excuse for the
>limitation or elimination of individual educational freedoms. It tells us
>just how dishonest government is. The true motive, of course, is total
>control of the population -- the very goal of Fascism -- never an
>enlightened populace.
>
>Germany was once considered the epitome of an educated people. The US
>government sent hundreds of "scholars" (under Horace Mann) over there in the
>19th century to examine its schools and copy the system as the politicians
>planned our universal schooling system.
homeschooling. That includes the countries that fought the Nazis.
>To this day, no one dreams of jay walking in Germany, even on an emptyI saw people jay walking in Germany in the late 60's.
>street. As I see it, Germans will need many more generations to overcome
>their unspeakable shame at being such obedient, horrific sheep.
>Before about 1840, America's schools were locally controlled, run by andWasn't the Constitution written just a *little* bit before 1840?
>for the benefit of the families and the larger community, and their purpose
>was to make sure that the children learned the basic skills plus, in most
>cases, especially in early New England, the gospel of the major christian
>congregation in town. That was before the Constitution which separated
>church and state.
Tia
What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/8/02 11:13:56 AM, leschke@... writes:
<< >To this day, no one dreams of jay walking in Germany, even on an empty
I would venture to guess that they washed their dishes before they left the
house to jaywalk, though.
Sandra
<< >To this day, no one dreams of jay walking in Germany, even on an empty
>street. As I see it, Germans will need many more generations to overcome<<I saw people jay walking in Germany in the late 60's. >>
>their unspeakable shame at being such obedient, horrific sheep.
I would venture to guess that they washed their dishes before they left the
house to jaywalk, though.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/8/02 11:13:56 AM, leschke@... writes:
<< ...especially in early New England, the gospel of the major christian
He changed centuries without changing paragraphs.
<< ...especially in early New England, the gospel of the major christian
>congregation in town. That was before the Constitution which separated<<Wasn't the Constitution written just a *little* bit before 1840? >>
>church and state.
He changed centuries without changing paragraphs.
Helen Hegener
At 10:12 AM -0400 8/8/02, Fetteroll wrote:
And thank you too, Joyce, for your well-stated and reasonable appeal.
I appreciate you both taking the time and effort to address this
issue with such understanding and informative posts.
Ned, I sympathize with your gung-ho approach to this whole subject,
and anyone who's read much of my writing will know I've been there
myself for 20+ years. And don't make the mistake of thinking I've
mellowed with time. But this list is about *supporting* unschooling,
and while we do encourage wandering off that topic, we don't need to
turn this into the Unschoolers Against Public Schooling list. Thanks
for understanding.
Helen
>on 8/8/02 8:28 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:Yes Sandra, thank you for your whole good reply to Ned.
>
>> To overlay American
>> sensibilties on their motives is just ethnocentricism.
>
>Thank you for this Sandra.
And thank you too, Joyce, for your well-stated and reasonable appeal.
I appreciate you both taking the time and effort to address this
issue with such understanding and informative posts.
Ned, I sympathize with your gung-ho approach to this whole subject,
and anyone who's read much of my writing will know I've been there
myself for 20+ years. And don't make the mistake of thinking I've
mellowed with time. But this list is about *supporting* unschooling,
and while we do encourage wandering off that topic, we don't need to
turn this into the Unschoolers Against Public Schooling list. Thanks
for understanding.
Helen
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/8/2002 6:10:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I don't get this, and can't for the life me understand why some are
congratulating you for it. Please enlighten me.
Sincerely yours,
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> To overlay AmericanSandra,
> sensibilties on their motives is just ethnocentricism.
I don't get this, and can't for the life me understand why some are
congratulating you for it. Please enlighten me.
Sincerely yours,
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>LOL!
>
><<I saw people jay walking in Germany in the late 60's. >>
>
>I would venture to guess that they washed their dishes before they left the
>house to jaywalk, though.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Fetteroll
on 8/8/02 3:29 PM, rsale515@... at rsale515@... wrote:
motivations to keep homeschooling illegal and it was getting longish and
then there Sandra said it all in one sentence.
There were more obvious quotes to intro what I went on to say but then again
it captures that idea of seeing through others eyes that seems to be missing
in a lot of these explanations.
Joyce
> I don't get this, and can't for the life me understand why some areThat's my fault! I was trying to write up a reply to the bit about German
> congratulating you for it. Please enlighten me.
motivations to keep homeschooling illegal and it was getting longish and
then there Sandra said it all in one sentence.
There were more obvious quotes to intro what I went on to say but then again
it captures that idea of seeing through others eyes that seems to be missing
in a lot of these explanations.
Joyce
[email protected]
I do not find Ned Vare's posts to be insulting in the least. I find most of
what he writes to be interesting and backed by his knowledge of history. I do
not have to agree with someone entirely in order to recognize persuasive
argument presented in an eloquent and witty manner. What I do find insulting
is the fact that Sandra feels compelled to pull apart every post he sends
(and the posts of many others) in order to find nitpicking faults. I think
her suggestion that he find another list to be obnoxious in the extreme. Did
I miss the coronation where she became Queen of the List? Perhaps she should
seek out the "Get a sense of Humor" or the "Get a Life" lists.
Sherry
what he writes to be interesting and backed by his knowledge of history. I do
not have to agree with someone entirely in order to recognize persuasive
argument presented in an eloquent and witty manner. What I do find insulting
is the fact that Sandra feels compelled to pull apart every post he sends
(and the posts of many others) in order to find nitpicking faults. I think
her suggestion that he find another list to be obnoxious in the extreme. Did
I miss the coronation where she became Queen of the List? Perhaps she should
seek out the "Get a sense of Humor" or the "Get a Life" lists.
Sherry
[email protected]
Sherry, I didn't copy your email because it didn't bear repeating.
Before you attack Sandra, you should know that *I* mentioned other lists and
our LIST OWNER has asked more than once that institutionalized school
bashing be stopped.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
Before you attack Sandra, you should know that *I* mentioned other lists and
our LIST OWNER has asked more than once that institutionalized school
bashing be stopped.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
Fetteroll
> I do not find Ned Vare's posts to be insulting in the least. I find most ofAdmittedly not everyone will agree. I'm sure Ned sides with you! :-)
> what he writes to be interesting and backed by his knowledge of history.
In this instance it seems to be subtracting more than it's adding. Which is,
again, not something everyone will agree with.
But if you like the Libertarian viewpoint, there are Libertarian lists at
Yahoo Groups. Only one teeny Libertarian homeschooler list unfortunately :-/
(I would think Libertarian and homeschooling would be a natural fit! But I
guess the overlap of two small sets is bound to be a very small set.)
> What I do find insultingAnd if Ned has a problem with it, then he can write to me. (My email address
> is the fact that Sandra feels compelled to pull apart every post he sends
> (and the posts of many others) in order to find nitpicking faults.
is down at the bottom of every email.)
What is not fine is someone singling someone else out to tell them you don't
like their discussion or posting style. Publicly reprimanding someone for
how they express themselves *never* leads to anything other than bad
feelings.
If anyone doesn't like how a discussion is going you can delete it or
contribute to it. Let's attack the ideas not the person or the way they
express themselves.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/02 8:08:01 AM Central Daylight Time,
FoxgloveStudio@... writes:
seem to come around and around on this list. Here is how it goes.
1) someone starts posting very strong, argumentative statements and opinions.
2) the list divides into groups, and the he said, she said crap starts.
3) eventually someone, or a few someones say Enough!
4) a few people start crying foul, and eventually someone takes aim at one
particular person.
When I first joined there was one person like this, she had an argument for
every topic, an opinion about every person. She never wanted to listen, and
anytime anyone ever suggested something she didn't want to hear she blamed it
all on Sandra. Now, I am not going to defend Sandra, she can do that herself,
but it amazes me to no end when someone tries this *Its all HER>>>> fault!*
argument when things, topics, get out of control like this.
While I enjoy the off topic debate as much as the next guy, what I come here
for is the information. Some have said they are leaving because they aren't
getting the information about unschooling they thought they were going to get
here. I wish they would stick around and see that (almost) all we discuss is
good information. Others get huffy when someone who has been unschooling
their children years, says *thats not unschooling.* While there are no hard,
fast rules for unschooling, there are some things that just aren't
unschooling, and we have or will find out what those things are. The problem
with this is that some have been to other lists, I know I have, where there
is lots of blanket statements made about unschooling. Lots of huggy,
pat-on-the-back posts. It seems that some (usually people who haven't done it
for long, or have read something out of context or generalized something to
the point of blandness) feel that unschooling is doing whatever works for
them. This includes unschooling everything but math, doing subjects in the
morning and unschooling in the afternoon, or what I call *Sunday
Unschoolers.* People who only unschool when it suits them. If you are doing
any of those things, that is not unschooling.
While Ned may very well be right about what problems exist in the public
education area, some of the information comes across as over sensationalized.
I have found that as the years go by, I think less and less on terms of
*school* If, suddenly homeschooling became illegal, I would do it anyway. I
think many here would as well. I don't even see us as homeschoolers much
anymore. (In the sense that homeschool is an adjective for what we do,
because it isn't what *we* do.)
So, if you came here to learn from those who have gone before you then by all
means, pull up a chair! But please, don't point fingers because the comfort
level of what is being offered is beyond what you can take.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
FoxgloveStudio@... writes:
> I do not find Ned Vare's posts to be insulting in the least. I find most ofI have found (and I haven't even been *here* that long) that certain themes
> what he writes to be interesting and backed by his knowledge of history. I
> do
> not have to agree with someone entirely in order to recognize persuasive
> argument presented in an eloquent and witty manner. What I do find
> insulting
> is the fact that Sandra feels compelled to pull apart every post he sends
> (and the posts of many others) in order to find nitpicking faults. I think
> her suggestion that he find another list to be obnoxious in the extreme.
> Did
> I miss the coronation where she became Queen of the List? Perhaps she
> should
> seek out the "Get a sense of Humor" or the "Get a Life" lists.
>
> Sherry
seem to come around and around on this list. Here is how it goes.
1) someone starts posting very strong, argumentative statements and opinions.
2) the list divides into groups, and the he said, she said crap starts.
3) eventually someone, or a few someones say Enough!
4) a few people start crying foul, and eventually someone takes aim at one
particular person.
When I first joined there was one person like this, she had an argument for
every topic, an opinion about every person. She never wanted to listen, and
anytime anyone ever suggested something she didn't want to hear she blamed it
all on Sandra. Now, I am not going to defend Sandra, she can do that herself,
but it amazes me to no end when someone tries this *Its all HER>>>> fault!*
argument when things, topics, get out of control like this.
While I enjoy the off topic debate as much as the next guy, what I come here
for is the information. Some have said they are leaving because they aren't
getting the information about unschooling they thought they were going to get
here. I wish they would stick around and see that (almost) all we discuss is
good information. Others get huffy when someone who has been unschooling
their children years, says *thats not unschooling.* While there are no hard,
fast rules for unschooling, there are some things that just aren't
unschooling, and we have or will find out what those things are. The problem
with this is that some have been to other lists, I know I have, where there
is lots of blanket statements made about unschooling. Lots of huggy,
pat-on-the-back posts. It seems that some (usually people who haven't done it
for long, or have read something out of context or generalized something to
the point of blandness) feel that unschooling is doing whatever works for
them. This includes unschooling everything but math, doing subjects in the
morning and unschooling in the afternoon, or what I call *Sunday
Unschoolers.* People who only unschool when it suits them. If you are doing
any of those things, that is not unschooling.
While Ned may very well be right about what problems exist in the public
education area, some of the information comes across as over sensationalized.
I have found that as the years go by, I think less and less on terms of
*school* If, suddenly homeschooling became illegal, I would do it anyway. I
think many here would as well. I don't even see us as homeschoolers much
anymore. (In the sense that homeschool is an adjective for what we do,
because it isn't what *we* do.)
So, if you came here to learn from those who have gone before you then by all
means, pull up a chair! But please, don't point fingers because the comfort
level of what is being offered is beyond what you can take.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanna514
> So, if you came here to learn from those who have gone before youthen by all
> means, pull up a chair! But please, don't point fingers because thecomfort
> level of what is being offered is beyond what you can take.Here, here!
> ~Nancy
>
>
I'll add a few pet peeves to this.
I think it is obnoxious to tell people that their posts aren't
suiting their needs.
And!, equally obnoxious, to tell a list they are unsubbing and
bitching about exactly why they are unsubbing.
Noone is getting paid here!
Joanna( a mostly lurker, getting fed up tonight)
Betsy
**
But if you like the Libertarian viewpoint, there are Libertarian lists at
Yahoo Groups. Only one teeny Libertarian homeschooler list unfortunately :-/
(I would think Libertarian and homeschooling would be a natural fit! But I
guess the overlap of two small sets is bound to be a very small set.)**
I don't have it bookmarked, but there is a separation of schools and
state website that has a pretty strong Libertarian flavor. They
advocate eliminating public schooling. I think I remember that they
have an email group. (And I'm probably not telling Ned anything he
doesn't already know.)
Betsy
But if you like the Libertarian viewpoint, there are Libertarian lists at
Yahoo Groups. Only one teeny Libertarian homeschooler list unfortunately :-/
(I would think Libertarian and homeschooling would be a natural fit! But I
guess the overlap of two small sets is bound to be a very small set.)**
I don't have it bookmarked, but there is a separation of schools and
state website that has a pretty strong Libertarian flavor. They
advocate eliminating public schooling. I think I remember that they
have an email group. (And I'm probably not telling Ned anything he
doesn't already know.)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/02 9:14:21 PM Central Daylight Time,
Wilkinson6@... writes:
land, the posts will dwindle for a while. whisper :::::You might even find
yourself wishing for a real meaty *off topic* discussion to liven up your
day!:::::
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wilkinson6@... writes:
>Stick around Joanna, the list goes in cycles. This will all fade into archive
>
>
>
>
> > So, if you came here to learn from those who have gone before you
> then by all
> > means, pull up a chair! But please, don't point fingers because the
> comfort
> > level of what is being offered is beyond what you can take.
> > ~Nancy
> >
> >
>
> Here, here!
> I'll add a few pet peeves to this.
> I think it is obnoxious to tell people that their posts aren't
> suiting their needs.
> And!, equally obnoxious, to tell a list they are unsubbing and
> bitching about exactly why they are unsubbing.
> Noone is getting paid here!
> Joanna( a mostly lurker, getting fed up tonight)
>
land, the posts will dwindle for a while. whisper :::::You might even find
yourself wishing for a real meaty *off topic* discussion to liven up your
day!:::::
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/9/02 9:32:55 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< I don't have it bookmarked, but there is a separation of schools and
state website that has a pretty strong Libertarian flavor. They
advocate eliminating public schooling. I think I remember that they
have an email group. (And I'm probably not telling Ned anything he
doesn't already know.) >>
Would Ned be telling them anything they don't already know?
Sandra
<< I don't have it bookmarked, but there is a separation of schools and
state website that has a pretty strong Libertarian flavor. They
advocate eliminating public schooling. I think I remember that they
have an email group. (And I'm probably not telling Ned anything he
doesn't already know.) >>
Would Ned be telling them anything they don't already know?
Sandra