Re: 2202 - what school is for
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/7/02 8:39 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
Government schooling was established in this country with the over-riding
purpose of creating a reliable "work force" for the industrial revolution
and also to turn out soldiers who would be obedient (follow orders). It
never had anything to do with culture or enlightenment or other benefits to
the citizens. It was to benefit business and government, hand in hand. As
others, such as John Taylor Gatto, have written about, the US government
school system was fashioned after the one in Prussia, now Germany, that
gave us Fascism and a totally obedient citizenry horribly misled by Hitler.
The purpose of our government school system, like Prussia's, has never been
the education of the citizens, it is a system that not only prevents what
most on this list would call education, but it even prevents the desire for
learning in many people. As Gatto has pointed out and documented, the design
of the system is to prevent inquiry, to quash dissent, to teach the absolute
worship of authority. Thus, the school employees have taken on the roles of
a weird kind of clergy, talking down to the masses of parents who seek even
a little control over the lives and learning of the children they send to
those institutions.
Yes, we have allowed it to happen, but government has used all its tricks to
make us think that we have wanted it, and is still doing that. In this
sense, the saying we hear..."We ARE the government" is simply not
true...government employees and "leaders" have huge resources that no group
of citizens can command, and they use them to keep the population as
ignorant as possible.
Taking our children out of that system and being responsible for them in
every way is the only road back from the sellout that has happened. Whatever
its cost, we owe it to our kids to keep them safe from the damage that the
government does to them with its schools.
Ned Vare
[email protected] wrote:
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 08:24:15 -0400Ned Vare responds:
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
>
>
> on 8/6/02 3:22 PM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon at dcannon@... wrote:
>
>> Because we have so institutionalized education through government
>> schools
Government schooling was established in this country with the over-riding
purpose of creating a reliable "work force" for the industrial revolution
and also to turn out soldiers who would be obedient (follow orders). It
never had anything to do with culture or enlightenment or other benefits to
the citizens. It was to benefit business and government, hand in hand. As
others, such as John Taylor Gatto, have written about, the US government
school system was fashioned after the one in Prussia, now Germany, that
gave us Fascism and a totally obedient citizenry horribly misled by Hitler.
The purpose of our government school system, like Prussia's, has never been
the education of the citizens, it is a system that not only prevents what
most on this list would call education, but it even prevents the desire for
learning in many people. As Gatto has pointed out and documented, the design
of the system is to prevent inquiry, to quash dissent, to teach the absolute
worship of authority. Thus, the school employees have taken on the roles of
a weird kind of clergy, talking down to the masses of parents who seek even
a little control over the lives and learning of the children they send to
those institutions.
Yes, we have allowed it to happen, but government has used all its tricks to
make us think that we have wanted it, and is still doing that. In this
sense, the saying we hear..."We ARE the government" is simply not
true...government employees and "leaders" have huge resources that no group
of citizens can command, and they use them to keep the population as
ignorant as possible.
Taking our children out of that system and being responsible for them in
every way is the only road back from the sellout that has happened. Whatever
its cost, we owe it to our kids to keep them safe from the damage that the
government does to them with its schools.
Ned Vare
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/7/02 10:54:26 AM, nedvare@... writes:
<< Government schooling was established in this country with the over-riding
purpose of creating a reliable "work force" for the industrial revolution
and also to turn out soldiers who would be obedient (follow orders). >>
This may be true in industrial-revolution neighborhoods, but it is NOT true
in the western U.S. where there was no industry to train for, but the
students were children of farmers and ranchers and local merchants.
<<As others, such as John Taylor Gatto, have written about....>
Yes. Myopia of metropolitan East-coast residents, I believe. An overly
simplistic answer for political purposes.
<<Yes, we have allowed it to happen, but government has used all its tricks to
make us think that we have wanted it, and is still doing that. >>
Nineteenth century country schools in the western U.S. were created by the
towns and settlers, not mandated by the government.
<<Taking our children out of that system and being responsible for them in
every way is the only road back from the sellout that has happened. Whatever
its cost, we owe it to our kids to keep them safe from the damage that the
government does to them with its schools.>>
This is fine.
There's no benefit from exaggeration and demonization of the history of
education. It's sensationalism and dishonesty and doesn't help people become
more comfortable with unschooling.
Sandra
<< Government schooling was established in this country with the over-riding
purpose of creating a reliable "work force" for the industrial revolution
and also to turn out soldiers who would be obedient (follow orders). >>
This may be true in industrial-revolution neighborhoods, but it is NOT true
in the western U.S. where there was no industry to train for, but the
students were children of farmers and ranchers and local merchants.
<<As others, such as John Taylor Gatto, have written about....>
Yes. Myopia of metropolitan East-coast residents, I believe. An overly
simplistic answer for political purposes.
<<Yes, we have allowed it to happen, but government has used all its tricks to
make us think that we have wanted it, and is still doing that. >>
Nineteenth century country schools in the western U.S. were created by the
towns and settlers, not mandated by the government.
<<Taking our children out of that system and being responsible for them in
every way is the only road back from the sellout that has happened. Whatever
its cost, we owe it to our kids to keep them safe from the damage that the
government does to them with its schools.>>
This is fine.
There's no benefit from exaggeration and demonization of the history of
education. It's sensationalism and dishonesty and doesn't help people become
more comfortable with unschooling.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 8/7/02 12:54 PM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
school. It sounds like a good idea for many reasons so there can't have been
one single idea behind its implementation.
If people chose a model designed (as Gatto says) to control the masses that
doesn't mean those choosing it didn't think they could find a good use for
an efficient factory model that could crank out a less ignorant population
for a lot less money than private tutors for everyone.
sad picture of the majority of the people in the US.
concerned.
That doesn't imply that I think every thing is hunky-dory as far as freedom
to homeschool is concerned. But this supposedly tricky government with it's
incredible resources keeping us ignorant has suddenly become incredibly
inefficient and ineffectual for the past 10 or 20 years as far as
controlling homeschoolers is concerned.
This conspiracy stuff just isn't hanging together.
We don't need to conjure up a scary controlling government to recognize that
*people* get nervous about things they have no control over. In fact the
Scary Government blinds us to our own part in the whole mess and blames it
on some faceless uncontrollable enemy.
Just as a human being, I don't want to make my life more uncomfortable to
accomodate something I don't like and don't have the ability to control. If
"the government" gets its fingers into homeschooling, it won't be because
Big Brother can't control us but because our neighbors are nervous about
supporting our potentially ignorant children who will undoubtedly end up on
welfare. We have met the enemy and he is us.
Joyce
> ItWho is "it"? There were a lot of people involved in the idea of public
> never had anything to do with culture or enlightenment or other benefits to
> the citizens.
school. It sounds like a good idea for many reasons so there can't have been
one single idea behind its implementation.
If people chose a model designed (as Gatto says) to control the masses that
doesn't mean those choosing it didn't think they could find a good use for
an efficient factory model that could crank out a less ignorant population
for a lot less money than private tutors for everyone.
> Yes, we have allowed it to happen, but government has used all its tricks toIf you build it they will come and willingly not question? That's a pretty
> make us think that we have wanted it, and is still doing that.
sad picture of the majority of the people in the US.
> government employees and "leaders" have huge resources that no groupThey seem to have been sleeping on the job as far as homeschooling is
> of citizens can command, and they use them to keep the population as
> ignorant as possible.
concerned.
That doesn't imply that I think every thing is hunky-dory as far as freedom
to homeschool is concerned. But this supposedly tricky government with it's
incredible resources keeping us ignorant has suddenly become incredibly
inefficient and ineffectual for the past 10 or 20 years as far as
controlling homeschoolers is concerned.
This conspiracy stuff just isn't hanging together.
We don't need to conjure up a scary controlling government to recognize that
*people* get nervous about things they have no control over. In fact the
Scary Government blinds us to our own part in the whole mess and blames it
on some faceless uncontrollable enemy.
Just as a human being, I don't want to make my life more uncomfortable to
accomodate something I don't like and don't have the ability to control. If
"the government" gets its fingers into homeschooling, it won't be because
Big Brother can't control us but because our neighbors are nervous about
supporting our potentially ignorant children who will undoubtedly end up on
welfare. We have met the enemy and he is us.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/7/02 11:54:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
nedvare@... writes:
see it anyway) that you are essentially preaching to the choir. Most on this
list have already taken our children out, or have never had our children in
the public school system. The other problem is there are good people in the
system, it isn't this black hole sucking the life blood out of our country.
While there are so many things wrong with the system that educates, there are
just as many things that are good about it. For many, school is the only
option. There are a multitude of parents out there volunteering, giving time
and talent to the schools their children attend. All of us have chosen to
devote that energy toward a singular purpose, our children. There are some on
this list who have children in the school system and this constant berating
can't make them feel good about the choices they either make willingly or are
forced to make because of circumstances. School reform isn't going to happen
on an unschooling list, and while I tend to admire (and agree with you on
some of the finer points) the attempt is just a tad overwhelming.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nedvare@... writes:
> Taking our children out of that system and being responsible for them inI think most of us understand what you are saying. The problem is (the way I
> every way is the only road back from the sellout that has happened. Whatever
> its cost, we owe it to our kids to keep them safe from the damage that the
> government does to them with its schools.
>
> Ned Vare
see it anyway) that you are essentially preaching to the choir. Most on this
list have already taken our children out, or have never had our children in
the public school system. The other problem is there are good people in the
system, it isn't this black hole sucking the life blood out of our country.
While there are so many things wrong with the system that educates, there are
just as many things that are good about it. For many, school is the only
option. There are a multitude of parents out there volunteering, giving time
and talent to the schools their children attend. All of us have chosen to
devote that energy toward a singular purpose, our children. There are some on
this list who have children in the school system and this constant berating
can't make them feel good about the choices they either make willingly or are
forced to make because of circumstances. School reform isn't going to happen
on an unschooling list, and while I tend to admire (and agree with you on
some of the finer points) the attempt is just a tad overwhelming.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
hahahah i LOVE this Ned.. am keeping to put in my "information packet" for my fifteen year old's teachers.. .. since he wants to continue in school to check out high school this year..
L
L
----- Original Message -----
From: Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:54 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2202 - what school is for
on 8/7/02 8:39 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 08:24:15 -0400
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
>
>
> on 8/6/02 3:22 PM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon at dcannon@... wrote:
>
>> Because we have so institutionalized education through government
>> schools
Ned Vare responds:
Government schooling was established in this country with the over-riding
purpose of creating a reliable "work force" for the industrial revolution
and also to turn out soldiers who would be obedient (follow orders). It
never had anything to do with culture or enlightenment or other benefits to
the citizens. It was to benefit business and government, hand in hand. As
others, such as John Taylor Gatto, have written about, the US government
school system was fashioned after the one in Prussia, now Germany, that
gave us Fascism and a totally obedient citizenry horribly misled by Hitler.
The purpose of our government school system, like Prussia's, has never been
the education of the citizens, it is a system that not only prevents what
most on this list would call education, but it even prevents the desire for
learning in many people. As Gatto has pointed out and documented, the design
of the system is to prevent inquiry, to quash dissent, to teach the absolute
worship of authority. Thus, the school employees have taken on the roles of
a weird kind of clergy, talking down to the masses of parents who seek even
a little control over the lives and learning of the children they send to
those institutions.
Yes, we have allowed it to happen, but government has used all its tricks to
make us think that we have wanted it, and is still doing that. In this
sense, the saying we hear..."We ARE the government" is simply not
true...government employees and "leaders" have huge resources that no group
of citizens can command, and they use them to keep the population as
ignorant as possible.
Taking our children out of that system and being responsible for them in
every way is the only road back from the sellout that has happened. Whatever
its cost, we owe it to our kids to keep them safe from the damage that the
government does to them with its schools.
Ned Vare
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
but reminding ourselves that what we automatically think is true usually has another side that we may not like.. that is valuable
L
L
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2202 - what school is for
In a message dated 8/7/02 10:54:26 AM, nedvare@... writes:
<< Government schooling was established in this country with the over-riding
purpose of creating a reliable "work force" for the industrial revolution
and also to turn out soldiers who would be obedient (follow orders). >>
This may be true in industrial-revolution neighborhoods, but it is NOT true
in the western U.S. where there was no industry to train for, but the
students were children of farmers and ranchers and local merchants.
<<As others, such as John Taylor Gatto, have written about....>
Yes. Myopia of metropolitan East-coast residents, I believe. An overly
simplistic answer for political purposes.
<<Yes, we have allowed it to happen, but government has used all its tricks to
make us think that we have wanted it, and is still doing that. >>
Nineteenth century country schools in the western U.S. were created by the
towns and settlers, not mandated by the government.
<<Taking our children out of that system and being responsible for them in
every way is the only road back from the sellout that has happened. Whatever
its cost, we owe it to our kids to keep them safe from the damage that the
government does to them with its schools.>>
This is fine.
There's no benefit from exaggeration and demonization of the history of
education. It's sensationalism and dishonesty and doesn't help people become
more comfortable with unschooling.
Sandra
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/7/02 3:08:17 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
llindsey3@... writes:
There IS not other side to "ALL American schools..." or "THE history of the
American School system..."
There is no other side to "All dogs have four legs."
But that statement is famously untrue.
Some dogs have three legs.
Not many.
So the Western U.S. school models are not the three-legged dogs of American
education. It's probable that the industrial-revolution model is a smaller
percentage of the history than was presented as "simple" truth here.
If there were schools in the U.S. before the industrial revolution, then that
was not the basis for schools.
(Hint: There were schools in the U.S. before the industrial revolution, and
there were entire states--lots of them--never in industrial zones.)
When European immigration was high, schools were probably HUGELY desired by
immigrant parents as a way for those kids to learn English. Was it an evil
plot of the government to provide instruction to people from two dozen or way
more different linguistic backgrounds?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
llindsey3@... writes:
> but reminding ourselves that what we automatically think is true usually hasI think it's good never to automatically think.
> another side that we may not like.. that is valuable
>
There IS not other side to "ALL American schools..." or "THE history of the
American School system..."
There is no other side to "All dogs have four legs."
But that statement is famously untrue.
Some dogs have three legs.
Not many.
So the Western U.S. school models are not the three-legged dogs of American
education. It's probable that the industrial-revolution model is a smaller
percentage of the history than was presented as "simple" truth here.
If there were schools in the U.S. before the industrial revolution, then that
was not the basis for schools.
(Hint: There were schools in the U.S. before the industrial revolution, and
there were entire states--lots of them--never in industrial zones.)
When European immigration was high, schools were probably HUGELY desired by
immigrant parents as a way for those kids to learn English. Was it an evil
plot of the government to provide instruction to people from two dozen or way
more different linguistic backgrounds?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]