Deb

From: PSoroosh@...
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2195

Thanks, Pam for your reply.

>>>But I do think that from the examples given, that it has been clear that
nobody was ever saying that. Sandra, for example, has talked at length
about
helping her kids learn all kinds of things. I've recently posted some
ways to
help kids learn some math stuff. I think that anybody reading for more
than a
few days would realize that the point of not using the word "teach" is
to
retrain old patterns of thinking - to help people break away from
thinking
that kids only learn what teachers teach.<<<

When I first joined the list I read some posts where people demonstrated
what they as caring involved parents were doing with their kids, but
there was also a large discussion of teaching vs learning. That's where
I came in. And when I added my thoughts on that matter someone ripped my
face off by insisting "teach" was a dirty word, no matter what
connotations anyone else had for it. The effect was to shut me up and I
didn't want to post for a while. Then when someone else complained and
made a point of not liking the rudeness, so I felt better and I decided
to get back into the discussions and just ignore anyone whose intent is
to shut others down. It is valuable to discuss things back and forth and
expand one's understanding. After the other person spke up with her
complaint, I realized there are others who want free discussion of ideas
and the list was not just limited to one set view and rule of
acceptability.


> It is actually too close to what many have done by leaving their kids
> off at a school.


>THIS makes sense - sort of. I mean - I can imagine it, even though I can't
>say I've EVER seen it in practice. Except that people who don't want to
>interact and support their kids' learning would just leave them IN school --
>at least that's what makes sense to me.

You mean you haven't ever had your kids in school at all? Lucky and
brave person to have started off homeschooling! I figured out that was
what I wanted to do after my youngest child's 1st grade year in a
private school. I didn't know there were such things as support groups
or anyone else doing it, I had read my first book on the subject "Teach
Your Own" by John Holt. So I did it. (Note the title of the book by the
original unschooling guru - "*Teach* Your Own"- gasp!)

You would be surprised to know that many parents these days take their
kids out of school because their kids are in trouble or having trouble,
but they themselves don't know how to or even want to do anything to
solve the problem except take them away from the problem. Not really
knowing how to fix anything or what to do - just want o get them away
from the scary or annoying place of authority. Really, people call me
every month telling me they want to homeschool their kids and would I do
it for them.... they think homschooling means in somebody's home, not
necessarily theirs! A real irresponsibility stance, believe me. ON the
other hand I know many other parents who love to have their kids home,
and do fine unschooling. Others, have their kids home and have trouble
relating to their kids and it can degenerate down into "do what I say or
elseyou go back to school!". Still others have good intentions but not a
clue what to do and any new fad or thing to buy becomes the thing that
"they should do."

So you see I really appreciate all the conversations going on here on
this list. It gives me insight into how to relate to people's questions
and difficulties on various levels. Great ideas of ways to explain with
realistic situations and insightfulthings to say - how you could
understand and help your kids, how to go about unschooling or living
with your kids.

>Don't interfere - learning will happen.... Nobody grows> or changes if the
> kids are just left to be by themselves and don't have
> a loving parent there to interact when needed.

>We had this discussion on this list a month or so ago - people were posting
>about this exact thing - and were attacked for supposedly saying that kids
>needed to be "entertained all the time." Just can't win, can we? <G> But -
>yes I agree with this point. I just don't think it is a big issue. I haven't
<seen unschooling parents who didn't work hard to enrich their kids'
lives.

Well, I knew when I wrote this that it would sound categorical, And I
do believe there is instead a gradient of "left alone" to "constantly
involved with parents". At any one time for any particular kid and
family, it might be "more left to figure out what to do and create" is
better - and for other times and families "more help and mutual action"
is good. Probably need a mix of both. IT is good to see what others have
made of a gradient of this that you never thought of. Like playing a
piano, you can go louder and softer, faster and slower for different
effects.
I have seen though kids left to figure what to do by themselves and
being lonely, just went to watch TV> MY own daughter when she was about
7 and I was working on legislative issues for 3 weeks straight during a
legislative session of our state - she found the 24 hour Cartoon CHannel
- and that IS what she did! When I came off the computer very late one
night I found her watching cartoons as 3 in the morning. Boy, when that
legistative session was over, I put the TV in the garge (storage) and
told my group that I couldn't be the one to work 24 hours for 3 weeks on
emrgencies anymore. My child meant more to me, and I ahd to get her
weaned into doing things again. Whew!

I've seen planty of kids taken out of school and left to play with an
ever mounting array of video games so they wouldn't bug their parents
when they were bored. The parents weren't bad, uneducated; they were
rich and spoiled and so their kids became. The philosphy of caring
unschooling must be preserved and I am thankful for the support here and
magazines with articles, other internet support sites, because beleive
not everyone naturally gravitates to it.

Anyway, I don't mean to bring people down with this aspect of reality.
But with the speed at which our school system is self-destructing, an
increasing number of people are coming to homeschooling without the
commitment of earlier times. IT is vital we help those who turn this way
and share our successful model. I'd like to get off this topic and into
the inspiring aspects of unschooling. I'll finish answering this post
and get to brighter, happier stuff.


> New homeschoolers often
> have to make a real effort to BE with their kids when they have so
> conveniently been without them for so long.
>

>I think they do - yes. Sometimes they have to make an effort to observe them
>carefully - and not to DIRECT them all the time, too.>

Very true- this is an art in itself. TO observe and watch with love but
not interefering. It is amazing what you can see when you expect your
child to know things all by himself and figure out new things to do that
I wouldn't have come up with in a million years. Hurrah, a universe and
future is being created! I think all kids have the potential to create
their own universe given the opportunity and without interfence.


> I think a discussion of the different aspects of learning vs teaching
> is very helpful .... up to a point. All people do both, I think, teach
> and learn in the natural scheme of life. Learning that there is a
> give-and-take in these things is very valuable.


>>>Some of the same people saying that "you don't need to "teach"" and "you
don't need to become their "teacher"" are also those of us who post
b'zillions of ideas and anecdotes about our unschooling lives. So - yeah
- I
agree with you and do it all the time.>>>>

Thank you, it's nice to acknowledge that we are on the same page.


Debbie Radstrom
--
Director, Live Oak Academy
Visit our website http://www.newhealth.net/liveoak/