Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2195
Deb
From: PSoroosh@...
two teenage boys borrowed some of my books on unschooling and thought
that was the perfect solution to her homeschooling problems: her boys
were not very enthusiastic about learning, and she had apparently
enforced some things on them. Now introduced to unschooling, she decided
she would never force them to do anything they didn't want to and would
let them do what they wanted on their own instead, to be sure she didn't
do the wrong thing. She is a friendly loving lady. But three years
later, her 16 year old son still cannot read. He occasionally says he
wants to and wants help but she can't give it to him and doesn't model
what to do or look into it far enough to come up with the right help to
give him. So she rather complacently does nothing rather than "violate"
him. He is 6 feet tall, a nice boy but embarrassed to have anyone see
him trying to read, even his father. HE made some slight progress with
some easy readers I gave her that I thought would interest him, and they
did, but she hasn't taken it further.
Another woman I know got the "don't tell him what to do for
homeschooling" bug and her 10 year old son heartily subscribes to this
flaunting it to everyone around him. She did take him out of some school
or other; she is busy working as a single mom, and just kowtows to him
when he says "I don't have to learn anything!" No modeling, no other
ideas put forth for him, just yeah - that's the philosophy we are
following, she says.
I invited them to go with a group of homeschoolers for whom I had
arranged a rather neat field trip to a nature park where the naturalist
used to be an archeologist and he showed us artifacts he had made using
methods of the early Americans in our region. We got to use
spear-throwers and carve holes in rock using sand and bamboo, chop wood
with shell axes and stuff like that. IT was really fun! But this boy was
rude to everyone including the naturalist and selfish. The mom left him
off another day with a different group activity of this naturalist, and
he was asked not to come back because he wouldn't stick with the group
when they walked through the woods. Obviously, he needs time to chill
out and decompress, but his mom was not giving that to him. SHe was
still trying to find other places for him to be and not exerting much
influence for the positive with him because she didn't know how to. With
her version of unschooling, she felt she didn't have to; she was
following her understanding of the philosophy and thought be being let
be somehow he would magically do well.
A third story: a mom with two little boys about 3 and 4 1/2 and one 8
year old daughter. SHe quit her job and took her kids out of preschool
and school to spend time with them. But again, her version of
unschooling was not restricting them in any way - letting them be free
to do exactly what they want. She extolled the virtues of letting them
take off their clothes and jump in the mud, run, play. Sounds so free,
doesn't it? I've done it! BUt these kids were running in circles, not
communicating with anyone, not really aware of their environment. Like
kids act when they are tired but still playing frantically. In fact when
they came along with me to a park, these kids could not listen to and
speak to anyone else there. THey were wild, and the mother ended up
sending her daughter back to public school because she hated being home
with her brothers and couldn't get her mother's attention and help. I
spoke with this lady today. She thought she was going to find other moms
to exchange kid time with. Would you want to? I am going to write up
some very specific things for her to read and think and practice so her
daughter can come home again maybe.
I provide an umbrella school service in Florida so parents can do what
they want to do with their kids and not have to register with the county
or send in any tests to the government. I have parents at all phases of
transition in how they homeschool. Some of the worst are the ones who
use "letting them learn on their own and do only what they want to" as a
substitute for really getting involved with their kids and understanding
and helping them.
I do find people can be very confused by the unschooling philosophy and
though something about it sounds right to them, they get hung up in not
doing anything so that they won't do the wrong thing! I try to help them
transition, cut out the workbooks, add lots of doing things out and
about in life, and reading together, and talking together. I try to help
them shorten their learning curve and lighten up on school-like things,
and get to know and appreciate their kids.
So I find that less dogma of any sort is better. Better to just be
explicit and give lots of examples of what TO DO than what not to. And
new unschooling parents do have things TO DO - like talk and listen,
find out things themselves, model an interest in researching thing and
going places, doing things and enjoying life. These are positives.
Leaving their kids alone to do what they want does not encompass how to
be a parent - the moms usually need a new view of their roles.
It is actually too close to what many have done by leaving their kids
off at a school. Don't interfere - learning will happen.... Nobody grows
or changes if the kids are just left to be by themselves and don't have
a loving parent there to interact when needed. New homeschoolers often
have to make a real effort to BE with their kids when they have so
conveniently been without them for so long.
I think a discussion of the different aspects of learning vs teaching
is very helpful .... up to a point. All people do both, I think, teach
and learn in the natural scheme of life. Learning that there is a
give-and-take in these things is very valuable. Making "teaching" a
forbidden word is foolish in my eyes and misplaces the correct emphasis
with a somewhat arbitrary stance. That is just too confusing for many
people. Time and effort is better spent in making clearly what you mean
by unschooling with lots of examples, as people are asking for and
giving now with "what my homeschooling day is like" and various
suggestions. Everyone finds there own way of doing it in the end, but
the examples and support of others do help.
Another viewpoint for you to consider.
Debbie
> Ned - do you and Luz see this happening? Unschooling parents refusing to givePam, for your info, I have definitely seen this happen! One parent with
> their child help? I haven't seen that. The unschooling parents I have seen
> seem to all be incredibly resourceful, supportive, involved, observant,
> intuitive, responsive facilitators. It wouldn't occur to me to worry that a
> kid might want to learn to read and that an unschooling parent would not
> figure out how best to help them or get help for them. Is that really
> something you worry about?
>
> --pamS
two teenage boys borrowed some of my books on unschooling and thought
that was the perfect solution to her homeschooling problems: her boys
were not very enthusiastic about learning, and she had apparently
enforced some things on them. Now introduced to unschooling, she decided
she would never force them to do anything they didn't want to and would
let them do what they wanted on their own instead, to be sure she didn't
do the wrong thing. She is a friendly loving lady. But three years
later, her 16 year old son still cannot read. He occasionally says he
wants to and wants help but she can't give it to him and doesn't model
what to do or look into it far enough to come up with the right help to
give him. So she rather complacently does nothing rather than "violate"
him. He is 6 feet tall, a nice boy but embarrassed to have anyone see
him trying to read, even his father. HE made some slight progress with
some easy readers I gave her that I thought would interest him, and they
did, but she hasn't taken it further.
Another woman I know got the "don't tell him what to do for
homeschooling" bug and her 10 year old son heartily subscribes to this
flaunting it to everyone around him. She did take him out of some school
or other; she is busy working as a single mom, and just kowtows to him
when he says "I don't have to learn anything!" No modeling, no other
ideas put forth for him, just yeah - that's the philosophy we are
following, she says.
I invited them to go with a group of homeschoolers for whom I had
arranged a rather neat field trip to a nature park where the naturalist
used to be an archeologist and he showed us artifacts he had made using
methods of the early Americans in our region. We got to use
spear-throwers and carve holes in rock using sand and bamboo, chop wood
with shell axes and stuff like that. IT was really fun! But this boy was
rude to everyone including the naturalist and selfish. The mom left him
off another day with a different group activity of this naturalist, and
he was asked not to come back because he wouldn't stick with the group
when they walked through the woods. Obviously, he needs time to chill
out and decompress, but his mom was not giving that to him. SHe was
still trying to find other places for him to be and not exerting much
influence for the positive with him because she didn't know how to. With
her version of unschooling, she felt she didn't have to; she was
following her understanding of the philosophy and thought be being let
be somehow he would magically do well.
A third story: a mom with two little boys about 3 and 4 1/2 and one 8
year old daughter. SHe quit her job and took her kids out of preschool
and school to spend time with them. But again, her version of
unschooling was not restricting them in any way - letting them be free
to do exactly what they want. She extolled the virtues of letting them
take off their clothes and jump in the mud, run, play. Sounds so free,
doesn't it? I've done it! BUt these kids were running in circles, not
communicating with anyone, not really aware of their environment. Like
kids act when they are tired but still playing frantically. In fact when
they came along with me to a park, these kids could not listen to and
speak to anyone else there. THey were wild, and the mother ended up
sending her daughter back to public school because she hated being home
with her brothers and couldn't get her mother's attention and help. I
spoke with this lady today. She thought she was going to find other moms
to exchange kid time with. Would you want to? I am going to write up
some very specific things for her to read and think and practice so her
daughter can come home again maybe.
I provide an umbrella school service in Florida so parents can do what
they want to do with their kids and not have to register with the county
or send in any tests to the government. I have parents at all phases of
transition in how they homeschool. Some of the worst are the ones who
use "letting them learn on their own and do only what they want to" as a
substitute for really getting involved with their kids and understanding
and helping them.
I do find people can be very confused by the unschooling philosophy and
though something about it sounds right to them, they get hung up in not
doing anything so that they won't do the wrong thing! I try to help them
transition, cut out the workbooks, add lots of doing things out and
about in life, and reading together, and talking together. I try to help
them shorten their learning curve and lighten up on school-like things,
and get to know and appreciate their kids.
So I find that less dogma of any sort is better. Better to just be
explicit and give lots of examples of what TO DO than what not to. And
new unschooling parents do have things TO DO - like talk and listen,
find out things themselves, model an interest in researching thing and
going places, doing things and enjoying life. These are positives.
Leaving their kids alone to do what they want does not encompass how to
be a parent - the moms usually need a new view of their roles.
It is actually too close to what many have done by leaving their kids
off at a school. Don't interfere - learning will happen.... Nobody grows
or changes if the kids are just left to be by themselves and don't have
a loving parent there to interact when needed. New homeschoolers often
have to make a real effort to BE with their kids when they have so
conveniently been without them for so long.
I think a discussion of the different aspects of learning vs teaching
is very helpful .... up to a point. All people do both, I think, teach
and learn in the natural scheme of life. Learning that there is a
give-and-take in these things is very valuable. Making "teaching" a
forbidden word is foolish in my eyes and misplaces the correct emphasis
with a somewhat arbitrary stance. That is just too confusing for many
people. Time and effort is better spent in making clearly what you mean
by unschooling with lots of examples, as people are asking for and
giving now with "what my homeschooling day is like" and various
suggestions. Everyone finds there own way of doing it in the end, but
the examples and support of others do help.
Another viewpoint for you to consider.
Debbie
>
> Just like I think that MOST PEOPLE will hear you say "Kids need phonics" and
> think you mean "Kids need to be taught to read using a formal comprehensive
> phonics program" - I also think MOST PEOPLE hear the word "teach" or
> "teacher" and think of someone deciding what, when, where, and how kids are
> supposed to learn something and then testing and grading how well they do at
> it.
>
> Now - I'm going to be pretty darn sure that long-time unschoolers don't mean
> either of those things. If I hear a long-time unschooler say, "Yeah- I taught
> my daughter how to do long division," it doesn't bring up those connotations
> to me. In that case, knowing how unschooling workds, I'm going to assume this
> came about because the kid wanted to do something and the parent offered the
> information and so on.
>
> BUT - here, on this list, with nearly a thousand people and MANY of those
> people who are just trying to figure out what all this unschooling stuff is
> all about - many of those people start out not even able to conceive of what
> unschooling is - it seems to me that people are going to be very confused and
> even misled if you say either that kids need phonics or that kids need to be
> taught. Again - I GET the point - I just think that in THIS context it is
> something that we have to stop and clear up every time it gets said because
> it is so easily and so likely misconstrued.
>
> It is okay - words can have multiple levels of meanings. "I am my child's
> first and most important teacher." "I am my child's parent and I am NOT my
> child's teacher."
>
> I have said both of those and meant them and they didn't contradict each
> other IN the contexts in which I said them.
>
> So - in a context where there are lots of new-to-unschooling people -
> remembering that "phonics" and "teach" and "teacher" have connotations to
> them that we don't mean - it is more helpful to avoid those terms and just
> talk more descriptively about what we mean.
>
> --pamS
>
>
[email protected]
Good post- I get your point that people might think that saying "no teaching"
means saying that the parents shouldn't demonstrate anything, explain
anything, pick out interesting videos or books, help kids learn
anything...etc.
But I do think that from the examples given, that it has been clear that
nobody was ever saying that. Sandra, for example, has talked at length about
helping her kids learn all kinds of things. I've recently posted some ways to
help kids learn some math stuff. I think that anybody reading for more than a
few days would realize that the point of not using the word "teach" is to
retrain old patterns of thinking - to help people break away from thinking
that kids only learn what teachers teach.
say I've EVER seen it in practice. Except that people who don't want to
interact and support their kids' learning would just leave them IN school --
at least that's what makes sense to me.
Don't interfere - learning will happen.... Nobody grows> or changes if the
about this exact thing - and were attacked for supposedly saying that kids
needed to be "entertained all the time." Just can't win, can we? <G> But -
yes I agree with this point. I just don't think it is a big issue. I haven't
seen unschooling parents who didn't work hard to enrich their kids' lives.
I don't equate unschooling with leaving kids alone and not supporting their
interests. That is the opposite of unschooling, in my book.
New homeschoolers often
carefully - and not to DIRECT them all the time, too.
school, they don't need mom or dad to become their "teacher" or to "teach"
them -- they don't need a teacher if they aren't "doing school." See - here
I'm using teacher and teach in the very common usage where teach means that a
teacher decides what should be learned, when, how and tests whether it was
learned. Unschoolers reject that and it would be easier to keep that clear if
we used "help kids learn" instead of teach, I think.
IfMaking "teaching" a
don't need to become their "teacher"" are also those of us who post
b'zillions of ideas and anecdotes about our unschooling lives. So - yeah - I
agree with you and do it all the time.
and is spending her summer trying to figure out what she's going to teach her
son in the fall. She's sweet and joyful and loves her kids and interacts
really nicely with them and pays close attention to their interests and does
her best to support them. They all are happy and content with how things are
working. That doesn't make it unschooling. Why not? Well - because all the
"teaching" - including the planning, carrying out, and assessment -- is
incompatible with unschooling, that's why. If someone comes here and wants to
know about unschooling and she says, "Well, look at all the 'teaching plans'
and pick out which kind of teacher you prefer to be and buy the curriculum
and teach it to your child," it would be really wrong of us not to step up
and say, "That isn't unschooling." If we want people to understand, they need
to understand that traditional-style "teaching" in the widest meaning of the
word is not necessary then it would be more clear if we didn't confuse the
issue so much..
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
means saying that the parents shouldn't demonstrate anything, explain
anything, pick out interesting videos or books, help kids learn
anything...etc.
But I do think that from the examples given, that it has been clear that
nobody was ever saying that. Sandra, for example, has talked at length about
helping her kids learn all kinds of things. I've recently posted some ways to
help kids learn some math stuff. I think that anybody reading for more than a
few days would realize that the point of not using the word "teach" is to
retrain old patterns of thinking - to help people break away from thinking
that kids only learn what teachers teach.
> It is actually too close to what many have done by leaving their kidsTHIS makes sense - sort of. I mean - I can imagine it, even though I can't
> off at a school.
say I've EVER seen it in practice. Except that people who don't want to
interact and support their kids' learning would just leave them IN school --
at least that's what makes sense to me.
Don't interfere - learning will happen.... Nobody grows> or changes if the
> kids are just left to be by themselves and don't haveWe had this discussion on this list a month or so ago - people were posting
> a loving parent there to interact when needed.
about this exact thing - and were attacked for supposedly saying that kids
needed to be "entertained all the time." Just can't win, can we? <G> But -
yes I agree with this point. I just don't think it is a big issue. I haven't
seen unschooling parents who didn't work hard to enrich their kids' lives.
I don't equate unschooling with leaving kids alone and not supporting their
interests. That is the opposite of unschooling, in my book.
New homeschoolers often
>I think they do - yes. Sometimes they have to make an effort to observe them
> have to make a real effort to BE with their kids when they have so
> conveniently been without them for so long.
>
carefully - and not to DIRECT them all the time, too.
> I think a discussion of the different aspects of learning vs teachingWell - that's one point. The big point is that now that the kids are out of
> is very helpful .... up to a point. All people do both, I think, teach
> and learn in the natural scheme of life. Learning that there is a
> give-and-take in these things is very valuable.
school, they don't need mom or dad to become their "teacher" or to "teach"
them -- they don't need a teacher if they aren't "doing school." See - here
I'm using teacher and teach in the very common usage where teach means that a
teacher decides what should be learned, when, how and tests whether it was
learned. Unschoolers reject that and it would be easier to keep that clear if
we used "help kids learn" instead of teach, I think.
IfMaking "teaching" a
>Some of the same people saying that "you don't need to "teach"" and "you
> forbidden word is foolish in my eyes and misplaces the correct emphasis
> with a somewhat arbitrary stance. That is just too confusing for many
> people. Time and effort is better spent in making clearly what you mean
> by unschooling with lots of examples, as people are asking for and
> giving now with "what my homeschooling day is like" and various
> suggestions.
don't need to become their "teacher"" are also those of us who post
b'zillions of ideas and anecdotes about our unschooling lives. So - yeah - I
agree with you and do it all the time.
>> Everyone finds there own way of doing it in the end, butI know someone who uses Calvert Curriculum. She is the teacher in that family
>
> the examples and support of others do help.
and is spending her summer trying to figure out what she's going to teach her
son in the fall. She's sweet and joyful and loves her kids and interacts
really nicely with them and pays close attention to their interests and does
her best to support them. They all are happy and content with how things are
working. That doesn't make it unschooling. Why not? Well - because all the
"teaching" - including the planning, carrying out, and assessment -- is
incompatible with unschooling, that's why. If someone comes here and wants to
know about unschooling and she says, "Well, look at all the 'teaching plans'
and pick out which kind of teacher you prefer to be and buy the curriculum
and teach it to your child," it would be really wrong of us not to step up
and say, "That isn't unschooling." If we want people to understand, they need
to understand that traditional-style "teaching" in the widest meaning of the
word is not necessary then it would be more clear if we didn't confuse the
issue so much..
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/02 11:26:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> I'm reminded of an interchange between Lady Astor and Winston Churchill:i wish i could KNOW you guys! IN PERSON! DENISE
> Lady Astor said: Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea, to
> which Churchill replied, My good lady, if you were my wife, I'd drink it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ned Vare
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I'm still wondering where some people got the idea that using the word
>
> I think a discussion of the different aspects of learning vs teaching
>is very helpful .... up to a point. All people do both, I think, teach
>and learn in the natural scheme of life. Learning that there is a
>give-and-take in these things is very valuable. Making "teaching" a
>forbidden word is foolish in my eyes and misplaces the correct emphasis
>with a somewhat arbitrary stance. That is just too confusing for many
>people.
"teach" is "forbidden". I've seen suggestions that it's *better* to think
of learning rather than teaching, that it can help new unschoolers to lose
that word *for awhile*. The only people that seem to use the word
"forbidden" in connection with the word teach are the ones complaining
about the fact that it's "forbidden". Same with talk about "rules" for
unschooling. Someone suggests that it might help to think of something a
certain way, and soon after someone complains about all the unschooling
"rules".
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island