Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2192
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/5/02 12:27 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
that Sandra is pulling everyone's leg here.
This list exists, after all, because we do not accept the government school
culture of dishonesty, corruption and coercion. We have broken away, each
with our own reasons, instead of resigning to an attitude of *acceptance*.
On this subject, I'm fond of a quote from the English writer, G. K.
Chesterton (1874-1936): * If tolerance is your main virtue, you have no
others.*...in other words, as someone else said, *If you don't stand for
something, you'll fall for anything.* Accepting the public schools would
require falling for everything...the schools actually count on that.
The government schools create a situation of incredible disharmony for
everyone, parents and children, mostly because it is one-size-fits-all, and
therefore is right for only a tiny minority of its caged prisoners and their
families. Whereas homeschooling has infinite variety and is therefore
accomodating for everyone who wants it whether or not we agree with each
other.
What disharmony we have here is nothing compared to what public school
parents and children suffer every day
Ned Vare
[email protected] wrote:
>Sometimes sarcasm is hard to catch when it's in print, but it seems to me
>> Wouldn't the world be more harmonious if we all just give up this divisive
>> homeschooling folly and accept the culture's decision to have schools, and
>> send our children back to school, and peacefully live in that culture with an
>> attitude of acceptance?
>>
>> It WOULD be more harmonious.
>>
>> Sandra
that Sandra is pulling everyone's leg here.
This list exists, after all, because we do not accept the government school
culture of dishonesty, corruption and coercion. We have broken away, each
with our own reasons, instead of resigning to an attitude of *acceptance*.
On this subject, I'm fond of a quote from the English writer, G. K.
Chesterton (1874-1936): * If tolerance is your main virtue, you have no
others.*...in other words, as someone else said, *If you don't stand for
something, you'll fall for anything.* Accepting the public schools would
require falling for everything...the schools actually count on that.
The government schools create a situation of incredible disharmony for
everyone, parents and children, mostly because it is one-size-fits-all, and
therefore is right for only a tiny minority of its caged prisoners and their
families. Whereas homeschooling has infinite variety and is therefore
accomodating for everyone who wants it whether or not we agree with each
other.
What disharmony we have here is nothing compared to what public school
parents and children suffer every day
Ned Vare
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/5/02 12:27 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
actual teaching methods which stress group thinking, called consensus. It's
the part that agrees with Socialist philosophy, saying that the group is
more important than the individual.
America -- I say America, son -- is different from all the countries that
came before it, largely because of the fact that it (we) put the individual
before the collective. If harmony happens as a result of increasing our
knowledge, fine, but if it occurs as a result of mincing our words, what
good is it, but the absence of disharmony. All I ask for is honesty. I'll
try to give the same.
Ned Vare
[email protected] wrote:
> HARMONY, as a practice in choosing our words, is not so much aboutThat sentiment is straight out of the government school propaganda and
> who we are as individuals but what we want to be as a community.
actual teaching methods which stress group thinking, called consensus. It's
the part that agrees with Socialist philosophy, saying that the group is
more important than the individual.
America -- I say America, son -- is different from all the countries that
came before it, largely because of the fact that it (we) put the individual
before the collective. If harmony happens as a result of increasing our
knowledge, fine, but if it occurs as a result of mincing our words, what
good is it, but the absence of disharmony. All I ask for is honesty. I'll
try to give the same.
Ned Vare
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/5/02 12:27 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
NV
[email protected] wrote:
> Casey was interviewed on the local cable channel this morning about herEinstein called it all play, too. Good for Casey.
> participation in their summer reading game. They asked her about being
> homeschooled and whether she gets summer vacation. Casey said "It's all
> summer vacation. <big smile>" They said "So what do you do during the day in
> homeschool?" Without missing a beat Casey replied "I mostly just play all
> day." I cracked up at the interviewer's expression to that one. It's all
> play to Casey. :o)
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
NV
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/5/02 12:27 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
There are many states that make school attendance compulsory, but there are
about as many (such as CT, where we are) that do not make attendance
compulsory. What effect does either situation have? Apparently, none...all
of them are terrible. For me, saying no is just fine ?^)
Ned Vare
[email protected] wrote:
> If it weren't compulsory lots of those theoretical or real bad parentsNed Asks: Are you saying that because it's compulsory, it's a good thing?
> wouldn't LET their kids go. If the kids just wanted to go the parents would
> say no. Because lots of parents think saying no is being a good parent.
>
> Sandra
There are many states that make school attendance compulsory, but there are
about as many (such as CT, where we are) that do not make attendance
compulsory. What effect does either situation have? Apparently, none...all
of them are terrible. For me, saying no is just fine ?^)
Ned Vare
zenmomma *
>>Einstein called it all play, too. Good for Casey.>>Thanks. In light of our recent teaching/learning discussions here, this
statement of hers really hit home for me.
Casey does SO many things that people would have no trouble categorizing for
school report purposes. She reads, writes, creates museums and home
businesses, volunteers at the library, does twice weekly gymnastics and
makes so many "projects" it's hard for me to keep up. And it's all without
lessons or prodding or being in any way influenced by the schoolish shoulds.
I help her when she asks, in the manner she would like me to help. I mostly
get out of her way. Am I using good ol' American teachin' methods with her?
I dunno. But it's working. And to her it is literally ALL play.
My son Conor is equally amazing and yet not at all "showy" in his learning
and activities like his sister. He's still shaking off those 4 years of PS
teaching and discovering his true passion for learning. Still he reads,
volunteers at the Children's Museum, asks a million questions and hopefully
gets a million answers. Oh and he's becoming the master of computer gaming
warfare apparently. :-/
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/02 2:12:56 PM, nedvare@... writes:
<< America -- I say America, son -- is different from all the countries that
came before it, largely because of the fact that it (we) put the individual
before the collective. >>
We any group rarely put the rights of one individual above the peace and
pursuit of happiness of all the rest of the group.
The individualism isn't an absolute freedom without restraint as long as
there ARE other people in America.
Sandra
<< America -- I say America, son -- is different from all the countries that
came before it, largely because of the fact that it (we) put the individual
before the collective. >>
We any group rarely put the rights of one individual above the peace and
pursuit of happiness of all the rest of the group.
The individualism isn't an absolute freedom without restraint as long as
there ARE other people in America.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/02 12:28:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> Most people unschool along a continuum. Some are farther along the pathbeautiful!! DEnise
> than others. I think we can all respect and support each other as we
> travel on the same path. Wisdom is more accessible to others when it
> comes gently worded.
>
> ~ Alicia
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/2002 1:13:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nedvare@... writes:
rigid and stifling of kids than the public schools - they often have the
worst curriculum - just boring boring boring workbooks - the same identical
stupid workbooks for every child in the class. Most of the public schools in
my area are much more inviting and stimulating and interesting than private
schools --- which isn't saying much.
But - my point is that it isn't the 'funding source' of the school that I
object to or that John Holt was writing about - it isn't because the public
schools are government-schools. My objections to "schooling" are just as much
relevant to private schools and to parents who use similar or even worse
method on their own kids at home.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nedvare@... writes:
> The government schools create a situation of incredible disharmony forMost private schools are not the Sudbury Valley style and many are even MORE
> everyone, parents and children, mostly because it is one-size-fits-all, and
> therefore is right for only a tiny minority of its caged prisoners and
> their
> families. Whereas homeschooling has infinite variety and is therefore
> accomodating for everyone who wants it whether or not we agree with each
> other.
>
rigid and stifling of kids than the public schools - they often have the
worst curriculum - just boring boring boring workbooks - the same identical
stupid workbooks for every child in the class. Most of the public schools in
my area are much more inviting and stimulating and interesting than private
schools --- which isn't saying much.
But - my point is that it isn't the 'funding source' of the school that I
object to or that John Holt was writing about - it isn't because the public
schools are government-schools. My objections to "schooling" are just as much
relevant to private schools and to parents who use similar or even worse
method on their own kids at home.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/2002 1:13:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nedvare@... writes:
homeschooling group and also on the NHEN board of directors. I get an average
of 2 or 3 emails per day and maybe one phone call per week from people -
desperately scared and unhappy parents - who just want someone to tell them
that it is going to be okay - that their child and their family can recover
from whatever horrors have been visited upon them by their child's school.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nedvare@... writes:
> What disharmony we have here is nothing compared to what public schoolAnd what PAIN there truly IS out there. I am a county contact for my state
> parents and children suffer every day
homeschooling group and also on the NHEN board of directors. I get an average
of 2 or 3 emails per day and maybe one phone call per week from people -
desperately scared and unhappy parents - who just want someone to tell them
that it is going to be okay - that their child and their family can recover
from whatever horrors have been visited upon them by their child's school.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
audrey elwood
wow! i'm impressed...my kids are doing things all day, they are 7 and 5yo
boys,but writing is the last thing on their minds- do any of you have young
boys that love to write? i worry about this...i wonder that i'm too close in
my mind still, to school vs. education!!!help!
audrey
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
boys,but writing is the last thing on their minds- do any of you have young
boys that love to write? i worry about this...i wonder that i'm too close in
my mind still, to school vs. education!!!help!
audrey
>From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2192
>Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:00:25 -0600
>
>
>
> >>Einstein called it all play, too. Good for Casey.>>
>
>Thanks. In light of our recent teaching/learning discussions here, this
>statement of hers really hit home for me.
>
>Casey does SO many things that people would have no trouble categorizing
>for
>school report purposes. She reads, writes, creates museums and home
>businesses, volunteers at the library, does twice weekly gymnastics and
>makes so many "projects" it's hard for me to keep up. And it's all without
>lessons or prodding or being in any way influenced by the schoolish
>shoulds.
>I help her when she asks, in the manner she would like me to help. I mostly
>get out of her way. Am I using good ol' American teachin' methods with her?
>I dunno. But it's working. And to her it is literally ALL play.
>
>My son Conor is equally amazing and yet not at all "showy" in his learning
>and activities like his sister. He's still shaking off those 4 years of PS
>teaching and discovering his true passion for learning. Still he reads,
>volunteers at the Children's Museum, asks a million questions and hopefully
>gets a million answers. Oh and he's becoming the master of computer gaming
>warfare apparently. :-/
>
>Life is good.
>~Mary
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "audrey elwood" <audreyelwood@h...>
wrote:
he wants or a days itinerary, he rarley writes more than that. My
almost 12yo didn't start writing til about 8yo and now she writes
poety and journals and occasional letters. My 5yo is just starting
to really notice letters and words.
My kids mostly find all kinds of stuff to do all day long. I don't
find a lot of opportunity to get in things I would like to do with
them. All of the cool resources we have here go untouched because
they are busy involved in their own creations.
My biggest input is taking them places(the
beach,pool,sports,scouts,museums,parks,friends houses.....) and
having lots of cool conversations about all kinds of different
things. With 4 kids there is an endless amount of questions asked
and ideas pondered.
I take those conversations and use them in my quest for resouces and
usually find library books or other things to expand on an interest.
Sometimes a google search, but they don't always want to take it that
far. Lots of things never make it past a breif conversation. But I
don't worry, there is always more to come!
Joanna
wrote:
> wow! i'm impressed...my kids are doing things all day, they are 7and 5yo
> boys,but writing is the last thing on their minds- do any of youhave young
> boys that love to write? i worry about this...i wonder that i'm tooclose in
> my mind still, to school vs. education!!!help!I have 2 boys 8 and 5, and while my 8 yo will make lists, of things
> audrey
>
>
he wants or a days itinerary, he rarley writes more than that. My
almost 12yo didn't start writing til about 8yo and now she writes
poety and journals and occasional letters. My 5yo is just starting
to really notice letters and words.
My kids mostly find all kinds of stuff to do all day long. I don't
find a lot of opportunity to get in things I would like to do with
them. All of the cool resources we have here go untouched because
they are busy involved in their own creations.
My biggest input is taking them places(the
beach,pool,sports,scouts,museums,parks,friends houses.....) and
having lots of cool conversations about all kinds of different
things. With 4 kids there is an endless amount of questions asked
and ideas pondered.
I take those conversations and use them in my quest for resouces and
usually find library books or other things to expand on an interest.
Sometimes a google search, but they don't always want to take it that
far. Lots of things never make it past a breif conversation. But I
don't worry, there is always more to come!
Joanna
Fetteroll
on 8/6/02 9:14 AM, audrey elwood at audreyelwood@... wrote:
write :-) Just like drawing or reading or skateboarding or playing video
games or ... indicates a like of those things. Do you worry that they aren't
playing with Legos or drawing or cooking or doing crafts or interested in
dinosaurs or any of the other myriad of things that other boys might be
doing?
Yes, it's part of the schooling mindset to be worried that they aren't doing
something that resembles something they'd do in school. And that mindset
*is* tough to work out of. Recognizing it is one step. But it's just one
step so don't feel badly if all the schoolishness doesn't just fall away
because you've discovered unschooling. :-) It can take years and lots and
lots of reading and doing and asking questions.
The learning isn't in the writing or the historical novel or the science
experiment. It's in asking questions and being curious and diving into
things to mess around. :-) And that can come from a video game as readily as
it comes from a science book. It's just whatever they happen to be
interested.
You can make writing part of their lives so they can take it up (or not)
when they find it meaningful will help. You can offer to write down their
stories. Make them into books and perhaps illustrate them. (By hand or on
the computer or with images from the internet or how ever!) Encourage them
to add to shopping lists and make lists of stuff to bring on vacation. (Or
you do the writing for them. Getting stuck on the idea that they need to do
the physical part of the writing for them to be writing can set them back if
they find the physical part difficult.) Email friends. (Even though my
daughter (11) loves to write, she still finds physically writing difficult
and isn't much into emails that are more than a sentence or two.) Write
scavenger hunt notes and they'll probably want to write their own for you.
You just need to make the opportunities available so they have access to the
tools when they need them.
The point I'm trying to make is that making them write shopping lists or
scavenger hunt notes won't turn them into writers. It will probably give
them the idea that writing is something to be avoided. But if they enjoy the
process of adding to a shopping list, or sending an email to Grandma, or
doing anything they enjoy or find useful that gives them the idea that
writing is a useful tool.
Joyce
> do any of you have youngI think that would be unusual. Writing at an early age indicates liking to
> boys that love to write?
write :-) Just like drawing or reading or skateboarding or playing video
games or ... indicates a like of those things. Do you worry that they aren't
playing with Legos or drawing or cooking or doing crafts or interested in
dinosaurs or any of the other myriad of things that other boys might be
doing?
Yes, it's part of the schooling mindset to be worried that they aren't doing
something that resembles something they'd do in school. And that mindset
*is* tough to work out of. Recognizing it is one step. But it's just one
step so don't feel badly if all the schoolishness doesn't just fall away
because you've discovered unschooling. :-) It can take years and lots and
lots of reading and doing and asking questions.
The learning isn't in the writing or the historical novel or the science
experiment. It's in asking questions and being curious and diving into
things to mess around. :-) And that can come from a video game as readily as
it comes from a science book. It's just whatever they happen to be
interested.
You can make writing part of their lives so they can take it up (or not)
when they find it meaningful will help. You can offer to write down their
stories. Make them into books and perhaps illustrate them. (By hand or on
the computer or with images from the internet or how ever!) Encourage them
to add to shopping lists and make lists of stuff to bring on vacation. (Or
you do the writing for them. Getting stuck on the idea that they need to do
the physical part of the writing for them to be writing can set them back if
they find the physical part difficult.) Email friends. (Even though my
daughter (11) loves to write, she still finds physically writing difficult
and isn't much into emails that are more than a sentence or two.) Write
scavenger hunt notes and they'll probably want to write their own for you.
You just need to make the opportunities available so they have access to the
tools when they need them.
The point I'm trying to make is that making them write shopping lists or
scavenger hunt notes won't turn them into writers. It will probably give
them the idea that writing is something to be avoided. But if they enjoy the
process of adding to a shopping list, or sending an email to Grandma, or
doing anything they enjoy or find useful that gives them the idea that
writing is a useful tool.
Joyce
audrey elwood
thanks joyce!
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2192
>Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 10:41:09 -0400
>
>on 8/6/02 9:14 AM, audrey elwood at audreyelwood@... wrote:
>
> > do any of you have young
> > boys that love to write?
>
>I think that would be unusual. Writing at an early age indicates liking to
>write :-) Just like drawing or reading or skateboarding or playing video
>games or ... indicates a like of those things. Do you worry that they
>aren't
>playing with Legos or drawing or cooking or doing crafts or interested in
>dinosaurs or any of the other myriad of things that other boys might be
>doing?
>
>Yes, it's part of the schooling mindset to be worried that they aren't
>doing
>something that resembles something they'd do in school. And that mindset
>*is* tough to work out of. Recognizing it is one step. But it's just one
>step so don't feel badly if all the schoolishness doesn't just fall away
>because you've discovered unschooling. :-) It can take years and lots and
>lots of reading and doing and asking questions.
>
>The learning isn't in the writing or the historical novel or the science
>experiment. It's in asking questions and being curious and diving into
>things to mess around. :-) And that can come from a video game as readily
>as
>it comes from a science book. It's just whatever they happen to be
>interested.
>
>You can make writing part of their lives so they can take it up (or not)
>when they find it meaningful will help. You can offer to write down their
>stories. Make them into books and perhaps illustrate them. (By hand or on
>the computer or with images from the internet or how ever!) Encourage them
>to add to shopping lists and make lists of stuff to bring on vacation. (Or
>you do the writing for them. Getting stuck on the idea that they need to do
>the physical part of the writing for them to be writing can set them back
>if
>they find the physical part difficult.) Email friends. (Even though my
>daughter (11) loves to write, she still finds physically writing difficult
>and isn't much into emails that are more than a sentence or two.) Write
>scavenger hunt notes and they'll probably want to write their own for you.
>You just need to make the opportunities available so they have access to
>the
>tools when they need them.
>
>The point I'm trying to make is that making them write shopping lists or
>scavenger hunt notes won't turn them into writers. It will probably give
>them the idea that writing is something to be avoided. But if they enjoy
>the
>process of adding to a shopping list, or sending an email to Grandma, or
>doing anything they enjoy or find useful that gives them the idea that
>writing is a useful tool.
>
>Joyce
>
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
audrey elwood
thanks joanna-
that was very helpful...i do things very similarly- so i guess we're doing
just fine.as a christian, i find unschooling a great test of faith-certainly
to stay out of god's way so my children can become who he intended them to
be -not who i intend them to be! it's so reassuring for me, just in the two
days i've been talking on this list with you guys- an answered prayer!
audrey
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
that was very helpful...i do things very similarly- so i guess we're doing
just fine.as a christian, i find unschooling a great test of faith-certainly
to stay out of god's way so my children can become who he intended them to
be -not who i intend them to be! it's so reassuring for me, just in the two
days i've been talking on this list with you guys- an answered prayer!
audrey
>From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 2192
>Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:31:36 -0000
>
>--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "audrey elwood" <audreyelwood@h...>
>wrote:
> > wow! i'm impressed...my kids are doing things all day, they are 7
>and 5yo
> > boys,but writing is the last thing on their minds- do any of you
>have young
> > boys that love to write? i worry about this...i wonder that i'm too
>close in
> > my mind still, to school vs. education!!!help!
> > audrey
> >
> >
>I have 2 boys 8 and 5, and while my 8 yo will make lists, of things
>he wants or a days itinerary, he rarley writes more than that. My
>almost 12yo didn't start writing til about 8yo and now she writes
>poety and journals and occasional letters. My 5yo is just starting
>to really notice letters and words.
>My kids mostly find all kinds of stuff to do all day long. I don't
>find a lot of opportunity to get in things I would like to do with
>them. All of the cool resources we have here go untouched because
>they are busy involved in their own creations.
>My biggest input is taking them places(the
>beach,pool,sports,scouts,museums,parks,friends houses.....) and
>having lots of cool conversations about all kinds of different
>things. With 4 kids there is an endless amount of questions asked
>and ideas pondered.
>I take those conversations and use them in my quest for resouces and
>usually find library books or other things to expand on an interest.
>Sometimes a google search, but they don't always want to take it that
>far. Lots of things never make it past a breif conversation. But I
>don't worry, there is always more to come!
>Joanna
>
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
kayb85
I used to worry about my now 5 year old son. He's not a rough, over-
active, very physical-activity oriented boy. He doesn't like to get
dirty. He likes stuffed animals. While other boys are wrestling in
the dirt, he'll be sitting philosophizing about how the nearby fence
was built or why the sun is where it is in the sky at that time of
the day. He likes to make up songs and stories. Professional
wrestling and football probably wouldn't interest him, but he loves
the art museum.
I used to worry, but now I'm very comfortable with the fact that all
kids are different, that's all.
Some young boys will write stories, some will play tackle football.
Whatever your kids do, just appreciate who God made them to be.
Sheila
active, very physical-activity oriented boy. He doesn't like to get
dirty. He likes stuffed animals. While other boys are wrestling in
the dirt, he'll be sitting philosophizing about how the nearby fence
was built or why the sun is where it is in the sky at that time of
the day. He likes to make up songs and stories. Professional
wrestling and football probably wouldn't interest him, but he loves
the art museum.
I used to worry, but now I'm very comfortable with the fact that all
kids are different, that's all.
Some young boys will write stories, some will play tackle football.
Whatever your kids do, just appreciate who God made them to be.
Sheila
> wow! i'm impressed...my kids are doing things all day, they are 7and 5yo
> boys,but writing is the last thing on their minds- do any of youhave young
> boys that love to write? i worry about this...i wonder that i'm tooclose in
> my mind still, to school vs. education!!!help!
> audrey