twelfth night
audrey elwood
does anyone know why shakespeare's twelfth night is called twelfth night? a
? from my 7yo.
thx audrey
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? from my 7yo.
thx audrey
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Alan & Brenda Leonard
> Twelfth Night was a medieval English holiday.It's really late here, so I didn't hit Google to check this, but isn't 12th
night a medieval holiday, period? As in, not limited to England?
I can tell you that it's still quite a big holiday in Germany. The whole
country virtually shuts down for the 12 days of Christmas, and Twelfth night
has religious significance, as the celebration of the coming of the wise
men, but it also is the last hurrah of Christmas before everybody goes back
to work in earnest. I was surprised last year (our first Christmas in
country) how big it was.
brenda
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/02 5:00:52 PM, abtleo@... writes:
<< It's really late here, so I didn't hit Google to check this, but isn't 12th
night a medieval holiday, period? As in, not limited to England? >>
??
Maybe <g>.
Shakespeare might or might not have cared. <g>
If he had google he would have known EVERYTHING.
I didn't want to do google either because I was afraid SO much cool stuff
would come up I wouldn't make it to the grocery store and to finish making
cookies and to Kinko's to make extra copies of music for a rehearsal
tonight...
Funny that I'd avoid learning something because it might be TOO much fun!!
Cool, huh?
And right now I was online to order some more reading glasses, and the boys
want their phone line back, darn it.
Off to make food...
Sandra
<< It's really late here, so I didn't hit Google to check this, but isn't 12th
night a medieval holiday, period? As in, not limited to England? >>
??
Maybe <g>.
Shakespeare might or might not have cared. <g>
If he had google he would have known EVERYTHING.
I didn't want to do google either because I was afraid SO much cool stuff
would come up I wouldn't make it to the grocery store and to finish making
cookies and to Kinko's to make extra copies of music for a rehearsal
tonight...
Funny that I'd avoid learning something because it might be TOO much fun!!
Cool, huh?
And right now I was online to order some more reading glasses, and the boys
want their phone line back, darn it.
Off to make food...
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/02 6:01:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
abtleo@... writes:
picture of my Grandpa holding me in a little red dress and the caption on the
back says "Grandpa holding Nancy/Three Kings Day celebration." I couldn't
have been more than 7, maybe 8 weeks old in this picture, so we were in
Puerto Rico and it would have been right after Christmas.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
abtleo@... writes:
> > Twelfth Night was a medieval English holiday.Isn't it also called Three Kings Day in some parts of the world? I have a
>
> It's really late here, so I didn't hit Google to check this, but isn't 12th
> night a medieval holiday, period? As in, not limited to England?
>
> I can tell you that it's still quite a big holiday in Germany. The whole
> country virtually shuts down for the 12 days of Christmas, and Twelfth night
> has religious significance, as the celebration of the coming of the wise
> men, but it also is the last hurrah of Christmas before everybody goes back
> to work in earnest. I was surprised last year (our first Christmas in
> country) how big it was.
>
> brenda
picture of my Grandpa holding me in a little red dress and the caption on the
back says "Grandpa holding Nancy/Three Kings Day celebration." I couldn't
have been more than 7, maybe 8 weeks old in this picture, so we were in
Puerto Rico and it would have been right after Christmas.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
twelfth night is also the beginning of Mardi Gras season in New orleans.... the first ball is held i believe on that day
L
L
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan & Brenda Leonard
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] twelfth night
> Twelfth Night was a medieval English holiday.
It's really late here, so I didn't hit Google to check this, but isn't 12th
night a medieval holiday, period? As in, not limited to England?
I can tell you that it's still quite a big holiday in Germany. The whole
country virtually shuts down for the 12 days of Christmas, and Twelfth night
has religious significance, as the celebration of the coming of the wise
men, but it also is the last hurrah of Christmas before everybody goes back
to work in earnest. I was surprised last year (our first Christmas in
country) how big it was.
brenda
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I think you might be confusing your seasons. Twelfth Night ends the Christmas
season while Mardi Gras is the last bash before Lent begins. Mardi Gras
begins the week before Ash Wednesday and ends on Shrove Tuesday, the day
before Ash Wednesday.
Mary, usually lurking in Illinois
season while Mardi Gras is the last bash before Lent begins. Mardi Gras
begins the week before Ash Wednesday and ends on Shrove Tuesday, the day
before Ash Wednesday.
Mary, usually lurking in Illinois
[email protected]
no.. when i lived in new orleans.. the newspaper always covered the first big ball on jan 6.. or near that.. i forget which krew held it.. but it would determine the royalty for the mardi gras season.. which began at that time.. they would have a traditional fancy 'king cake' and there would be a certain number of silver beans and a gold one.. indicating princesses or queen.. or something like that.. it was all covered in the society pages.. then after that, the little king cakes with babies in them were EVERYwhere.. even tiny ones in the convenience stores... whoever got the baby when soemone brought the cake to work or wherever.. would have to bring the next cake.. it's a whole strange new orleans thing...
L
L
----- Original Message -----
From: sennmanor@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] twelfth night
I think you might be confusing your seasons. Twelfth Night ends the Christmas
season while Mardi Gras is the last bash before Lent begins. Mardi Gras
begins the week before Ash Wednesday and ends on Shrove Tuesday, the day
before Ash Wednesday.
Mary, usually lurking in Illinois
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
AND in new orleans, mardi gras goes on more than a week.. the parades start two weekends before the tuesday.. that's the eve of ash wednesday when lent begins.. the first parade is friday night two and a half weeks before actual mardi gras day.. the joke among the people i knew when i lived there was that christmas was simply preparation for mardi gras season..
of course in new orleans it's hard to tell a party season from a non party season.. but at least there were king cakes at the mardi gras season parties.. which of course multiplied the closer mardi gras got..
L
of course in new orleans it's hard to tell a party season from a non party season.. but at least there were king cakes at the mardi gras season parties.. which of course multiplied the closer mardi gras got..
L
----- Original Message -----
From: sennmanor@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] twelfth night
I think you might be confusing your seasons. Twelfth Night ends the Christmas
season while Mardi Gras is the last bash before Lent begins. Mardi Gras
begins the week before Ash Wednesday and ends on Shrove Tuesday, the day
before Ash Wednesday.
Mary, usually lurking in Illinois
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
One of the sad losses with government schools is the loss of
common culture to understand so many references, like "twelfth
night."
The Catholic Church - and following on it, some other
denominations - keep a calendar through the year, a calendar of
seasons and events. The first day of the new church year is the
first Sunday of Advent, which is the 4th Sunday before Christmas.
Advent is a season of prayerful preparation, like a mini-Lent.
The third Sunday in Advent is called Gaudete Sunday, BTW.
Christmas Vigil is December 24; the feast of Christmas, December
25. The next 12 days are a celebration of the feast of
Christmas. There are several Saint's days scattered into the
season and some cultural events, such as boxing day in England (a
gift giving day 12/26). The Twelfth Day of Christmas is the
Feast of the Epiphany, or arrival of the three wise men/kings.
Depending on where you are, Epiphany is either a season that
lasts until Lent or an event followed by a season called
"ordinary time".
Lent, called the slow fast, is the great penitential season of
the Church. Various sacrifices and observances have been
commonly employed to mark the season. Shrove Tuesday/Mardis Gras
refer to the same day - the Tuesday before Ash Wednesday, marking
the last unfettered day before the fast. Shrove relates to
shriven, which is a term for being granted absolution after a
sacramental confession. In preparation for Lent folks would
receive the sacrament of Penance in order to observe a worthy
Lent. Fat Tuesday (English translation of Mardis Gras) refers to
the need to get rid of all the eggs, butter, meat and yummy stuff
before Lent - think pancake suppers with bacon and sausage in
many places. As a secular matter the dead of winter (as in
Jan/Feb) works well for a social season - there's not a heck of a
lot else you can do, and the Church had no great events to
preclude extending the preparation for Lent all the way back to
Epiphany,
Ash Wednesday, the beginning of Lent, is celebrated as a day of
fasting, with members of many denominations wearing ashes on
their foreheads as a sign of penance. The ashes are prepared
from the palms used the year before on Palm Sunday. Lent
continues for 40 days, culminating in Holy Week. Holy Week
starts with Palm Sunday, commemorating the entrance of Jesus into
Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover. You hang out then until
Thursday, which is the beginning of the Tridiuum (3 days - kinda
catchy, huh?). Holy Thursday (Maundy Thursday/Gruendonnerstag)
celebrates the institution of the Eucharist and is usually
celebrated with the symbolic washing of feet as Jesus washed the
disciples' feet. New holy oils are consecrated for the year;
frequently some step in the reception of new members to the
church is taken then. The traditional name of Maundy comes from
"commandment" or mandatum in the Latin - the new commandment of
love, given at the Last Supper.
Good Friday I think remains pretty well understood culturally;
the suspension between words that is Holy Saturday has no bearing
on those who are not churched. Easter similarly is easy, but
perhaps the "Octave" is not. Easter is celebrated for 8 days
after the Sunday.
... and the year continues. For many years the only source of
calendar or of terms was the Church. Without context, you miss a
huge amount of the richness of our literature and art. ... not to
mention practical housekeeping. The first Sunday of Advent is
called "Stir up Sunday" as in "Stir up you power, Oh Lord" and
was how a housewife kept count that it was time to stir up the
Christmas dishes that required long seasoning, like fruit cakes.
Fun stuff.
common culture to understand so many references, like "twelfth
night."
The Catholic Church - and following on it, some other
denominations - keep a calendar through the year, a calendar of
seasons and events. The first day of the new church year is the
first Sunday of Advent, which is the 4th Sunday before Christmas.
Advent is a season of prayerful preparation, like a mini-Lent.
The third Sunday in Advent is called Gaudete Sunday, BTW.
Christmas Vigil is December 24; the feast of Christmas, December
25. The next 12 days are a celebration of the feast of
Christmas. There are several Saint's days scattered into the
season and some cultural events, such as boxing day in England (a
gift giving day 12/26). The Twelfth Day of Christmas is the
Feast of the Epiphany, or arrival of the three wise men/kings.
Depending on where you are, Epiphany is either a season that
lasts until Lent or an event followed by a season called
"ordinary time".
Lent, called the slow fast, is the great penitential season of
the Church. Various sacrifices and observances have been
commonly employed to mark the season. Shrove Tuesday/Mardis Gras
refer to the same day - the Tuesday before Ash Wednesday, marking
the last unfettered day before the fast. Shrove relates to
shriven, which is a term for being granted absolution after a
sacramental confession. In preparation for Lent folks would
receive the sacrament of Penance in order to observe a worthy
Lent. Fat Tuesday (English translation of Mardis Gras) refers to
the need to get rid of all the eggs, butter, meat and yummy stuff
before Lent - think pancake suppers with bacon and sausage in
many places. As a secular matter the dead of winter (as in
Jan/Feb) works well for a social season - there's not a heck of a
lot else you can do, and the Church had no great events to
preclude extending the preparation for Lent all the way back to
Epiphany,
Ash Wednesday, the beginning of Lent, is celebrated as a day of
fasting, with members of many denominations wearing ashes on
their foreheads as a sign of penance. The ashes are prepared
from the palms used the year before on Palm Sunday. Lent
continues for 40 days, culminating in Holy Week. Holy Week
starts with Palm Sunday, commemorating the entrance of Jesus into
Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover. You hang out then until
Thursday, which is the beginning of the Tridiuum (3 days - kinda
catchy, huh?). Holy Thursday (Maundy Thursday/Gruendonnerstag)
celebrates the institution of the Eucharist and is usually
celebrated with the symbolic washing of feet as Jesus washed the
disciples' feet. New holy oils are consecrated for the year;
frequently some step in the reception of new members to the
church is taken then. The traditional name of Maundy comes from
"commandment" or mandatum in the Latin - the new commandment of
love, given at the Last Supper.
Good Friday I think remains pretty well understood culturally;
the suspension between words that is Holy Saturday has no bearing
on those who are not churched. Easter similarly is easy, but
perhaps the "Octave" is not. Easter is celebrated for 8 days
after the Sunday.
... and the year continues. For many years the only source of
calendar or of terms was the Church. Without context, you miss a
huge amount of the richness of our literature and art. ... not to
mention practical housekeeping. The first Sunday of Advent is
called "Stir up Sunday" as in "Stir up you power, Oh Lord" and
was how a housewife kept count that it was time to stir up the
Christmas dishes that required long seasoning, like fruit cakes.
Fun stuff.
----- Original Message -----
From: <sennmanor@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] twelfth night
| I think you might be confusing your seasons. Twelfth Night ends
the Christmas
| season while Mardi Gras is the last bash before Lent begins.
Mardi Gras
| begins the week before Ash Wednesday and ends on Shrove
Tuesday, the day
| before Ash Wednesday.
|
| Mary, usually lurking in Illinois
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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------~->
|
| If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list,
please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at
fetteroll@...
|
| To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
| [email protected]
|
| Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|
Fetteroll
on 8/6/02 8:29 AM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon at dcannon@... wrote:
would know about Twelfth Night. But that isn't true. Children of families
from cultures that don't celebrate 12 days of Christmas wouldn't know.
Children of families who didn't find the tradition meaningful enough to pass
on wouldn't know. Children of families of other religions wouldn't know.
I think the business of government schools *is* common culture. Common
*American* culture -- which partly (or largely?) consists of a common
denominator that most people could relate to. "Everyone" (ie, the majority
that counted) celebrated Christmas on Christmas day. So culturally
(recognized by schools, government, business, media) Americans celebrate one
day of Christmas.
I think the media plays an even bigger part in passing on a common culture
than schools do. My childhood Christmases were pretty much like Norman
Rockwell and Charlie Brown and the sitcom families on TV. Not, I think,
because my parents tried to copy those specific images, but because those
and others showed us how Americans celebrated Christmas. There were cultural
and family variations, but the media gave us the foundation.
Joyce
> One of the sad losses with government schools is the loss ofYour statement implies that if there were no government schools everyone
> common culture to understand so many references, like "twelfth
> night."
would know about Twelfth Night. But that isn't true. Children of families
from cultures that don't celebrate 12 days of Christmas wouldn't know.
Children of families who didn't find the tradition meaningful enough to pass
on wouldn't know. Children of families of other religions wouldn't know.
I think the business of government schools *is* common culture. Common
*American* culture -- which partly (or largely?) consists of a common
denominator that most people could relate to. "Everyone" (ie, the majority
that counted) celebrated Christmas on Christmas day. So culturally
(recognized by schools, government, business, media) Americans celebrate one
day of Christmas.
I think the media plays an even bigger part in passing on a common culture
than schools do. My childhood Christmases were pretty much like Norman
Rockwell and Charlie Brown and the sitcom families on TV. Not, I think,
because my parents tried to copy those specific images, but because those
and others showed us how Americans celebrated Christmas. There were cultural
and family variations, but the media gave us the foundation.
Joyce
Betsy
**Isn't it also called Three Kings Day in some parts of the world? I
have a
picture of my Grandpa holding me in a little red dress and the caption
on the
back says "Grandpa holding Nancy/Three Kings Day celebration." I
couldn't
have been more than 7, maybe 8 weeks old in this picture, so we were in
Puerto Rico and it would have been right after Christmas. **
Yes. It's also called "Epiphany".
Some Puerto Rican friends told me that that's the day in their culture
that Christmas gifts are exchanged. It's the day the three wise men
arrived with their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.
Betsy
have a
picture of my Grandpa holding me in a little red dress and the caption
on the
back says "Grandpa holding Nancy/Three Kings Day celebration." I
couldn't
have been more than 7, maybe 8 weeks old in this picture, so we were in
Puerto Rico and it would have been right after Christmas. **
Yes. It's also called "Epiphany".
Some Puerto Rican friends told me that that's the day in their culture
that Christmas gifts are exchanged. It's the day the three wise men
arrived with their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.
Betsy
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
I think that because the subject was a Christian reference, you
assumed more than I was saying.
To me an important aspect of understanding any culture is
understanding its religion - and if you value cultural
competence, you will pursue some degree of knowledge about the
prevalent faiths. The idea that separation of church and state
eliminates religion as an intellectual topic is a very common
mistake in government schools.
Our common culture is filled with many faiths and most are more
complex than the screen shots and sound bites, though that
superficial level is also part of the common culture. While I
have a particular faith, I also make sure that I am aware of the
major aspects of other faiths that I encounter and that the kids
are exposed to culture of those faiths. ...Of course the 5 y.o.
has Braveheart and Moses all mixed up in one big ball of
"Freedom!!!"
assumed more than I was saying.
To me an important aspect of understanding any culture is
understanding its religion - and if you value cultural
competence, you will pursue some degree of knowledge about the
prevalent faiths. The idea that separation of church and state
eliminates religion as an intellectual topic is a very common
mistake in government schools.
Our common culture is filled with many faiths and most are more
complex than the screen shots and sound bites, though that
superficial level is also part of the common culture. While I
have a particular faith, I also make sure that I am aware of the
major aspects of other faiths that I encounter and that the kids
are exposed to culture of those faiths. ...Of course the 5 y.o.
has Braveheart and Moses all mixed up in one big ball of
"Freedom!!!"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] twelfth night
| on 8/6/02 8:29 AM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon at dcannon@...
wrote:
|
| > One of the sad losses with government schools is the loss of
| > common culture to understand so many references, like
"twelfth
| > night."
|
| Your statement implies that if there were no government schools
everyone
| would know about Twelfth Night. But that isn't true. Children
of families
| from cultures that don't celebrate 12 days of Christmas
wouldn't know.
| Children of families who didn't find the tradition meaningful
enough to pass
| on wouldn't know. Children of families of other religions
wouldn't know.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/02 8:19:29 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< I think the business of government schools *is* common culture. Common
*American* culture -- >>
Or Canadian, or British...
<< I think the business of government schools *is* common culture. Common
*American* culture -- >>
Or Canadian, or British...
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/02 8:38:38 AM, dcannon@... writes:
<< The idea that separation of church and state
eliminates religion as an intellectual topic is a very common
mistake in government schools. >>
But if in the U.S. the curriculum included comparative religion, many of the
teachers are Christians, and many Christian sects/denominations cannot
condone other religions (or even the other Christian sects).
And the law that gives them freedom of religion outweighs any law or
principle about what kids get to learn in school.
So a Catholic teacher can't be made to pretend even for a minute that other
religions are legitimate paths to truth and heaven. It can't be a
requirement of one's job to make a speech to impressionable children that
says it's as good to be a pagan as to be Baptist.
Some sanitization is required unless robots become the teachers.
Sandra
<< The idea that separation of church and state
eliminates religion as an intellectual topic is a very common
mistake in government schools. >>
But if in the U.S. the curriculum included comparative religion, many of the
teachers are Christians, and many Christian sects/denominations cannot
condone other religions (or even the other Christian sects).
And the law that gives them freedom of religion outweighs any law or
principle about what kids get to learn in school.
So a Catholic teacher can't be made to pretend even for a minute that other
religions are legitimate paths to truth and heaven. It can't be a
requirement of one's job to make a speech to impressionable children that
says it's as good to be a pagan as to be Baptist.
Some sanitization is required unless robots become the teachers.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 8/6/02 10:40 AM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon at dcannon@... wrote:
mistaken what you meant by "common culture". If you mean digging into other
cultures and the roots of where our culture came from, I'd agree schools
don't do a very good job. But were people more aware of the roots of our
culture before government schools?
So I'm still not sure what you mean by "One of the sad losses with
government schools is the loss of common culture to understand so many
references, like "twelfth night." What was it that was better before
government schools? And how have government schools interfered with it?
Joyce
> I think that because the subject was a Christian reference, youNo, it had nothing to do with the Christian reference, but I may have
> assumed more than I was saying.
mistaken what you meant by "common culture". If you mean digging into other
cultures and the roots of where our culture came from, I'd agree schools
don't do a very good job. But were people more aware of the roots of our
culture before government schools?
So I'm still not sure what you mean by "One of the sad losses with
government schools is the loss of common culture to understand so many
references, like "twelfth night." What was it that was better before
government schools? And how have government schools interfered with it?
Joyce
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
To the extent that culture is understood to include the culture
of various religions and to the extent that religion is banned in
government schools under the rubric of separation of church and
state (bonus points if you know the religious basis of "rubric"),
anything has to be better.
More seriously, yes I think there has been a decline in our
attention to learning common culture, that is facilely handled by
dismissing religion from school, but that actually is defeatism
about whether it is possible to become passingly familiar with
the different faiths that are regular parts of our experience in
today's world. Passingly familiar enough to laugh at the moyel
line in Arafat converts to Judaism joke. Passingly familiar
enough to understand the source of the outrage when the Taliban
destroyed the giant Buddahs.
Because we have so institutionalized education through government
schools that the core, required knowledge for teachers is how to
teach rather than what to teach, we are where Sandra posited -
bereft of teachers who can hold to one set of beliefs and
respectfully explain others. Government schools with their
emphasis on producing the product of a high school graduate drive
that institutional requirement by their pervasiveness. IMHO, as
always, LOL.
of various religions and to the extent that religion is banned in
government schools under the rubric of separation of church and
state (bonus points if you know the religious basis of "rubric"),
anything has to be better.
More seriously, yes I think there has been a decline in our
attention to learning common culture, that is facilely handled by
dismissing religion from school, but that actually is defeatism
about whether it is possible to become passingly familiar with
the different faiths that are regular parts of our experience in
today's world. Passingly familiar enough to laugh at the moyel
line in Arafat converts to Judaism joke. Passingly familiar
enough to understand the source of the outrage when the Taliban
destroyed the giant Buddahs.
Because we have so institutionalized education through government
schools that the core, required knowledge for teachers is how to
teach rather than what to teach, we are where Sandra posited -
bereft of teachers who can hold to one set of beliefs and
respectfully explain others. Government schools with their
emphasis on producing the product of a high school graduate drive
that institutional requirement by their pervasiveness. IMHO, as
always, LOL.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] twelfth night
| on 8/6/02 10:40 AM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon at
dcannon@... wrote:
|
| > I think that because the subject was a Christian reference,
you
| > assumed more than I was saying.
|
| No, it had nothing to do with the Christian reference, but I
may have
| mistaken what you meant by "common culture". If you mean
digging into other
| cultures and the roots of where our culture came from, I'd
agree schools
| don't do a very good job. But were people more aware of the
roots of our
| culture before government schools?
|
| So I'm still not sure what you mean by "One of the sad losses
with
| government schools is the loss of common culture to understand
so many
| references, like "twelfth night." What was it that was better
before
| government schools? And how have government schools interfered
with it?
|
| Joyce
|
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
| Will You Find True Love?
| Will You Meet the One?
| Free Love Reading by phone!
| http://us.click.yahoo.com/it_ffB/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/0xXolB/TM
| ---------------------------------------------------------------
------~->
|
| If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list,
please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at
fetteroll@...
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Fetteroll
on 8/6/02 3:22 PM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon at dcannon@... wrote:
to. When has a "well read" type of education ever been imposed on the
masses? (Let alone successfully imposed.)
education as providing a foundation for a stable career that will provide
their children with security. Mass education isn't for understanding the
world. It's to get a good job. It's one of the reasons why innovative
schools aren't spreading like wild fire. Only a few parents want them. Most
parents are scared for their children's futures. They want guarantees. They
want to see results that are leading to a specific destination. They want
phonics. And drill work. And homework. And memorization.
Education of the past was for different purposes. It wasn't one size fits
all. (Nor should it be.) The cultural education you're refering to was only
for the elite who were training for their place in society where they might
encounter the equivalent of the "moyel line in Arafat converts to Judaism
joke." They were training for careers that would employ knowledge like that
(at least in the social end of their careers) like lawyer or banker or owner
of a company. So for them it was, to an extent, practical knowledge.
Others were learning for specific careers like bookkeeping or blacksmithing.
If they learned about their culture it was from living life not from their
schooling (which might have been on the job training). (And their culture
extended no further than English and Protestant so there wasn't nearly as
much to learn.) They wouldn't have needed to understand the "moyel line"
because no one else in their social class would have understood it.
And then there was everyone else from the great unwashed illiterate masses
to those who had the leisure to dabble in cultural literacy.
Except for those who actually do need it in their careers, an education that
has the leisure to focus on impractical social and cultural knowledge is for
the elite who don't have to worry about competing for a good job and
supporting themselves.
Joyce
> Because we have so institutionalized education through governmentI'm still not sure at what point in time you're comparing today's education
> schools
to. When has a "well read" type of education ever been imposed on the
masses? (Let alone successfully imposed.)
> Government schools with theirIt's what parents (as a mass) want. Most parents see the purpose of
> emphasis on producing the product of a high school graduate drive
> that institutional requirement by their pervasiveness.
education as providing a foundation for a stable career that will provide
their children with security. Mass education isn't for understanding the
world. It's to get a good job. It's one of the reasons why innovative
schools aren't spreading like wild fire. Only a few parents want them. Most
parents are scared for their children's futures. They want guarantees. They
want to see results that are leading to a specific destination. They want
phonics. And drill work. And homework. And memorization.
Education of the past was for different purposes. It wasn't one size fits
all. (Nor should it be.) The cultural education you're refering to was only
for the elite who were training for their place in society where they might
encounter the equivalent of the "moyel line in Arafat converts to Judaism
joke." They were training for careers that would employ knowledge like that
(at least in the social end of their careers) like lawyer or banker or owner
of a company. So for them it was, to an extent, practical knowledge.
Others were learning for specific careers like bookkeeping or blacksmithing.
If they learned about their culture it was from living life not from their
schooling (which might have been on the job training). (And their culture
extended no further than English and Protestant so there wasn't nearly as
much to learn.) They wouldn't have needed to understand the "moyel line"
because no one else in their social class would have understood it.
And then there was everyone else from the great unwashed illiterate masses
to those who had the leisure to dabble in cultural literacy.
Except for those who actually do need it in their careers, an education that
has the leisure to focus on impractical social and cultural knowledge is for
the elite who don't have to worry about competing for a good job and
supporting themselves.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/02 1:19:52 PM, dcannon@... writes:
<< Because we have so institutionalized education through government
schools that the core, required knowledge for teachers is how to
teach rather than what to teach, we are where Sandra posited -
bereft of teachers who can hold to one set of beliefs and
respectfully explain others. >>
I didn't "posit" it in the way that I propose or suggest. I'm stating
practical facts.
Telling someone WHAT to teach, if it goes against their religion, goes
against their rights as Americans. Telling them they HAVE to respectfvully
explain a religion which they consider to be of Satan and leading to Hell
would 1) cause them to go against what they think God wants, and 2) cause a
TON of hypocricy and sarcasm in classes which kids would pick up on.
I'd rather a child hear nothing than to get totally wrong information.
It's not the school's duty to tell children about their own or anyone else's
religion. Not in the U.S. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY it would be done in any
balanced way, because people are people, and many of them are religious
people. And how would a skeptic or a fundamentalist Moslem or a wounded
survivor describe Christianity? You probably wouldn't want them to do it to
YOUR child.
Sandra
<< Because we have so institutionalized education through government
schools that the core, required knowledge for teachers is how to
teach rather than what to teach, we are where Sandra posited -
bereft of teachers who can hold to one set of beliefs and
respectfully explain others. >>
I didn't "posit" it in the way that I propose or suggest. I'm stating
practical facts.
Telling someone WHAT to teach, if it goes against their religion, goes
against their rights as Americans. Telling them they HAVE to respectfvully
explain a religion which they consider to be of Satan and leading to Hell
would 1) cause them to go against what they think God wants, and 2) cause a
TON of hypocricy and sarcasm in classes which kids would pick up on.
I'd rather a child hear nothing than to get totally wrong information.
It's not the school's duty to tell children about their own or anyone else's
religion. Not in the U.S. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY it would be done in any
balanced way, because people are people, and many of them are religious
people. And how would a skeptic or a fundamentalist Moslem or a wounded
survivor describe Christianity? You probably wouldn't want them to do it to
YOUR child.
Sandra