Re: scaring the newbies
[email protected]
Thanks, Joz, for expressing my feelings before I had the nerve to do so
: )
It's not so much the disagreeing that bothers me, it's the TONE of these
disagreements. Really nasty and negative.....condescending and
self-righteous. Perhaps we need to learn to express our beliefs and
feelings alittle more positively? : )
I, too, have belonged to many email lists over the year (and am also a
long-time moderator of two lists...an infertility list and a parenting
after infertility list) so am well acquainted with these types of posts.
On our lists, however, these types of posts would not be tolerated. You
simply are not allowed to publicly berate or flame another member
(you're not even allowed to 'beat a dead horse'....before it went on
_this_ long, the moderator would step in and announce that it was time
to drop the subect and move on! For a nasty post directed directly
towards another member, you would be 'warned' to BE NICE, and then you'd
be unsubscribed if you persisted.
I'm not saying anything about the content of Ned's post, but the fact
alone that all of you ganged up on him so nastily made me feel alot of
sympathy for him.
Obviously, you can just 'have at' each other here, so I'll go back to
lurkdom and ponder whether I should just try to find a nicer unschooler
list or if I should just use my delete button next time this happens.
BTW....does anyone know of a 'kinder, gentler' unschooling list?
Hugs,
Denise
: )
It's not so much the disagreeing that bothers me, it's the TONE of these
disagreements. Really nasty and negative.....condescending and
self-righteous. Perhaps we need to learn to express our beliefs and
feelings alittle more positively? : )
I, too, have belonged to many email lists over the year (and am also a
long-time moderator of two lists...an infertility list and a parenting
after infertility list) so am well acquainted with these types of posts.
On our lists, however, these types of posts would not be tolerated. You
simply are not allowed to publicly berate or flame another member
(you're not even allowed to 'beat a dead horse'....before it went on
_this_ long, the moderator would step in and announce that it was time
to drop the subect and move on! For a nasty post directed directly
towards another member, you would be 'warned' to BE NICE, and then you'd
be unsubscribed if you persisted.
I'm not saying anything about the content of Ned's post, but the fact
alone that all of you ganged up on him so nastily made me feel alot of
sympathy for him.
Obviously, you can just 'have at' each other here, so I'll go back to
lurkdom and ponder whether I should just try to find a nicer unschooler
list or if I should just use my delete button next time this happens.
BTW....does anyone know of a 'kinder, gentler' unschooling list?
Hugs,
Denise
[email protected]
On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:56:14 -0500 (CDT) kevden@... writes:
that from the thread in question - I got a lot of frustration, and felt a
lot of frustration, but no nastiness or condescension. FWIW, your last
senetnce above ("Perhaps we need...") felt really condescending to me,
like something a caricature of a kindergarten teacher would say, but I
don't know you and so I decided to keep reading and assume you hadn't
meant it that way.
beliefs and ideas, and expressed frustration that an issue that was
discussed in great detail days before was being revisited as if all of
the posts on the original thread had never been posted... that *was*
frustrating. There's a big difference, though, between disagreeing with
someone's ideas and flaming or berating that person.
I don't see this as a "support list", per se. It's a discussion list, a
learning and growing list, and IMO it's not a good fit for people who
want only pats on the back and "do whatever works for you and call it
unschooling". There *is* an awful lot of support here for people who are
trying to live as unschoolers, and who are willing to critically examine
the ideas they hold about learning and living.
find out what this list is like before you rush to judge it.
If you do decide to look for another list, you can plus "unschooling"
into the search box at yahoogroups and find quite a few...
Dar
> It's not so much the disagreeing that bothers me, it's the TONE ofthese
> disagreements. Really nasty and negative.....condescending andIt's interesting how people's perceptions differ. I didn't get any of
> self-righteous. Perhaps we need to learn to express our beliefs and
> feelings alittle more positively? : )
that from the thread in question - I got a lot of frustration, and felt a
lot of frustration, but no nastiness or condescension. FWIW, your last
senetnce above ("Perhaps we need...") felt really condescending to me,
like something a caricature of a kindergarten teacher would say, but I
don't know you and so I decided to keep reading and assume you hadn't
meant it that way.
>You
> On our lists, however, these types of posts would not be tolerated.
> simply are not allowed to publicly berate or flame another memberBut no one berated or flamed anyone. We strongly questioned someone's
beliefs and ideas, and expressed frustration that an issue that was
discussed in great detail days before was being revisited as if all of
the posts on the original thread had never been posted... that *was*
frustrating. There's a big difference, though, between disagreeing with
someone's ideas and flaming or berating that person.
I don't see this as a "support list", per se. It's a discussion list, a
learning and growing list, and IMO it's not a good fit for people who
want only pats on the back and "do whatever works for you and call it
unschooling". There *is* an awful lot of support here for people who are
trying to live as unschoolers, and who are willing to critically examine
the ideas they hold about learning and living.
> Obviously, you can just 'have at' each other here,But we don't. We "have at" ideas, maybe. Maybe you should stay around and
find out what this list is like before you rush to judge it.
If you do decide to look for another list, you can plus "unschooling"
into the search box at yahoogroups and find quite a few...
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/2002 5:59:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
freeform@... writes:
published articles he has written and have told him and others how much I
appreciate what he and Luz have to say. We appear to disagree very strongly
about this one issue, though, and, in fact, (listening Ned? <g>) I think he's
being inconsistent and misleading. I think he can take hearing that - he
probably thinks I'm being pigheaded and dimwitted not to think the same way
he does about it <G>. I wish he'd pay attention to what other people here
have to say and be responsive to that because we could have a way better
discussion, I'm sure, and people do tend to get cranky when they spend time
thoughtfully responding to someone's "article" and that person ignores what
they've said and just posts more of the same. This is a "discussion list."
Discussions can get heated - and that is to be expected sometimes when
people's beliefs are being challenged. But we sure do learn a lot from those
challenges - if we're willing to keep listening and talking and responding
and trying to understand other people's points of view.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freeform@... writes:
> But no one berated or flamed anyone. We strongly questioned someone'sIn fact, I have great admiration for Ned and I think he knows that - I've
> beliefs and ideas, and expressed frustration that an issue that was
> discussed in great detail days before was being revisited as if all of
> the posts on the original thread had never been posted... that *was*
> frustrating. There's a big difference, though, between disagreeing with
> someone's ideas and flaming or berating that person.
published articles he has written and have told him and others how much I
appreciate what he and Luz have to say. We appear to disagree very strongly
about this one issue, though, and, in fact, (listening Ned? <g>) I think he's
being inconsistent and misleading. I think he can take hearing that - he
probably thinks I'm being pigheaded and dimwitted not to think the same way
he does about it <G>. I wish he'd pay attention to what other people here
have to say and be responsive to that because we could have a way better
discussion, I'm sure, and people do tend to get cranky when they spend time
thoughtfully responding to someone's "article" and that person ignores what
they've said and just posts more of the same. This is a "discussion list."
Discussions can get heated - and that is to be expected sometimes when
people's beliefs are being challenged. But we sure do learn a lot from those
challenges - if we're willing to keep listening and talking and responding
and trying to understand other people's points of view.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liza Sabater
>Pam Soorosh said:Still, his ideas can be part of a discussion. I do not know Ned
>I wish he'd pay attention to what other people here have to say and
>be responsive to that because we could have a way better discussion,
>I'm sure, and people do tend to get cranky when they spend time
>thoughtfully responding to someone's "article" and that person
>ignores what they've said and just posts more of the same.
personally but by the minute correspondence I have had with him and
by reading his post on several lists, I even know he is not going to
back down on that one. That's why I sent the phonics jokes. I mean
really, Ned, giving up Phonics?!?!?!? I have not read him that long,
nor know him personally and even I know that ain't gonna happen ...
The beauty of email lists is that these are not verbal discussions
and we can still discuss other people's ideas even if they refuse to
participate in the discussion. Still, this kind of complaint comes up
regularly and I think they are just reminders of how the noise level
has to go back to thoughtful or even soothing instead of remaining
strident.
OK, y'all can flame you all you want but I am pulling out the Tao for
my closing:
>54. Cultivate HarmonyLiza
>Cultivate harmony within yourself, and harmony becomes real;
>Cultivate harmony within your family, and harmony becomes fertile;
>Cultivate harmony within your community, and harmony becomes abundant;
>Cultivate harmony within your culture, and harmony becomes enduring;
>Cultivate harmony within the world, and harmony becomes ubiquitous.
>
>Live with a person to understand that person;
>Live with a family to understand that family;
>Live with a community to understand that community;
>Live with a culture to understand that culture;
>Live with the world to understand the world.
>
>How can I live with the world?
>By accepting.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shelly G
--- kevden@... wrote:
lists full of hugs, pats on the back, and nods of
approval, BUT .... I didn't come to the list looking
for hugs and pats on the back. I came for information,
help, and support on unschooling for my family.
I get that here and on a couple of other lists ... and
I've unsubscribed from the "fluffy" lists that
contained lots of hugs but not so much help.
Shelly
=====
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever does." -- Margaret Mead
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com
> BTW....does anyone know of a 'kinder, gentler'I've been on "kinder, gentler" unschooling lists,
> unschooling list?
>
> Hugs,
> Denise
lists full of hugs, pats on the back, and nods of
approval, BUT .... I didn't come to the list looking
for hugs and pats on the back. I came for information,
help, and support on unschooling for my family.
I get that here and on a couple of other lists ... and
I've unsubscribed from the "fluffy" lists that
contained lots of hugs but not so much help.
Shelly
=====
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever does." -- Margaret Mead
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/02 6:59:41 PM, freeform@... writes:
<< There's a big difference, though, between disagreeing with
someone's ideas and flaming or berating that person. >>
I so agree. These things weren't about people, they were about theories and
ideas and practices.
<<I'm not saying anything about the content of Ned's post, but>>
Without the fact of the content (and tone) of the posts, how could you have
an opinion? I've been in discussions about spanking, in which families'
lives were changed from swatting children to not-at-all hitting them. Those
changes don't come from anyone saying "Well, you know your children best, and
if hitting is what works, that's fine!"
In such discussions when some people are showing how their own real children
are thriving and "behaving" without being hit, any statement like "Oh,
lighten up people--a little spanking isn't going to make that much
difference," would have to be met with REAL opposition, or else those who
want justification for hitting might take that and say "Well, in one
anti-spanking argument..."
In those discussions I care about the future of those children, and those
families, and the grandchildren. That's not really the time to think, "Well
this spanking mother needs support." Yes she does need support, but she
needs (from that list) support to STOP." AA meetings don't serve drinks for
those who would really like one. Anti-smoking groups don't have just a few
ashtrays out just in case. And unschooling groups shouldn't take seriously
the idea that reading will come natural only after phonics is learned or
taught or mastered somehow.
<<I don't see this as a "support list", per se. It's a discussion list, a
learning and growing list,>>
It's sad when it happens, but it happens with some regularity.
People who were not involving themselves in a debate come and complain that
they want people debating for their benefit, they want the issues discussed,
but they want them discussed on their previously-unstated terms. Complaining
of those who ARE brave enough to stick their necks out to make a point for
the benefit of those who are not brave enough serves what purpose?
A watered-down unschooling group that accepts just about anything as a
possible unschooling practice serves what purpose?
Sandra
<< There's a big difference, though, between disagreeing with
someone's ideas and flaming or berating that person. >>
I so agree. These things weren't about people, they were about theories and
ideas and practices.
<<I'm not saying anything about the content of Ned's post, but>>
Without the fact of the content (and tone) of the posts, how could you have
an opinion? I've been in discussions about spanking, in which families'
lives were changed from swatting children to not-at-all hitting them. Those
changes don't come from anyone saying "Well, you know your children best, and
if hitting is what works, that's fine!"
In such discussions when some people are showing how their own real children
are thriving and "behaving" without being hit, any statement like "Oh,
lighten up people--a little spanking isn't going to make that much
difference," would have to be met with REAL opposition, or else those who
want justification for hitting might take that and say "Well, in one
anti-spanking argument..."
In those discussions I care about the future of those children, and those
families, and the grandchildren. That's not really the time to think, "Well
this spanking mother needs support." Yes she does need support, but she
needs (from that list) support to STOP." AA meetings don't serve drinks for
those who would really like one. Anti-smoking groups don't have just a few
ashtrays out just in case. And unschooling groups shouldn't take seriously
the idea that reading will come natural only after phonics is learned or
taught or mastered somehow.
<<I don't see this as a "support list", per se. It's a discussion list, a
learning and growing list,>>
It's sad when it happens, but it happens with some regularity.
People who were not involving themselves in a debate come and complain that
they want people debating for their benefit, they want the issues discussed,
but they want them discussed on their previously-unstated terms. Complaining
of those who ARE brave enough to stick their necks out to make a point for
the benefit of those who are not brave enough serves what purpose?
A watered-down unschooling group that accepts just about anything as a
possible unschooling practice serves what purpose?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/02 8:25:18 PM, liza@... writes:
<< >Cultivate harmony within your community, and harmony becomes abundant;
<<>Live with a family to understand that family;
<<>How can I live with the world?
Does spanking have to do with unschooling? Lots of ways.
I grew up in a culture in which spanking was not only common but considered a
necessary part of good parenting.
I can't accept that.
I grew up in and around families in which children were shamed and belittled.
Accepting that doesn't promote harmony.
We grew up surrounded by, inside, working in schools--most of us here.
Wouldn't the world be more harmonious if we all just give up this divisive
homeschooling folly and accept the culture's decision to have schools, and
send our children back to school, and peacefully live in that culture with an
attitude of acceptance?
It WOULD be more harmonious.
Sandra
<< >Cultivate harmony within your community, and harmony becomes abundant;
>Cultivate harmony within your culture, and harmony becomes enduring; >>. . . .
<<>Live with a family to understand that family;
>Live with a community to understand that community;>>. . . .
<<>How can I live with the world?
>By accepting.>>I'm going to go back to my spanking example.
Does spanking have to do with unschooling? Lots of ways.
I grew up in a culture in which spanking was not only common but considered a
necessary part of good parenting.
I can't accept that.
I grew up in and around families in which children were shamed and belittled.
Accepting that doesn't promote harmony.
We grew up surrounded by, inside, working in schools--most of us here.
Wouldn't the world be more harmonious if we all just give up this divisive
homeschooling folly and accept the culture's decision to have schools, and
send our children back to school, and peacefully live in that culture with an
attitude of acceptance?
It WOULD be more harmonious.
Sandra
Liza Sabater
>Wouldn't the world be more harmonious if we all just give up this divisiveActually accepting that pain and suffering are everywhere is not to
>homeschooling folly and accept the culture's decision to have schools, and
>send our children back to school, and peacefully live in that culture with an
>attitude of acceptance?
>
>It WOULD be more harmonious.
>
>Sandra
condone them. It is just an acknowledgement that it indeed happens.
From there, then, one can work towards changing that. Attacking and
inflicting pain and suffering to those who create pain and suffering
is not going to stop the cycle but feed it. Accepting that there are
indeed people who do not agree with your ideas is cultivating
harmony. Trying to convert them or conquer them by attacking them or
ostracize them is not.
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/02 6:36:10 AM, liza@... writes:
<< Actually accepting that pain and suffering are everywhere is not to
condone them. It is just an acknowledgement that it indeed happens.
From there, then, one can work towards changing that. >>
Unschooling wasn't well known or accepted when I started doing it. I got help
from families who were doing it pretty much in isolation. I got bad examples
from families who were using structure, and their kids didn't much like them
anymore (nor did they much seem to like their kids).
I came into contact with people who had NO living local examples, one way or
another. On Prodigy and earlier AOL, and now with internet forums. There is
more homeschooling information to be had in an hour nowadays than I could get
by any means in a year when Kirby was five and didn't go to kindergarten.
<<Attacking and
inflicting pain and suffering to those who create pain and suffering
is not going to stop the cycle but feed it. >>
I hope you didn't intend to say that I had attacked and inflicted pain.
Defending natural reading methods isn't an attack on anything but the idea
that children can't learn to read naturally. I know with absolute certainty
that they can.
But I know with certainty that a mom can't even begin to help that happen if
she doesn't believe it CAN happen. If a mom is convinced that teaching
phonics is a prerequisite to them reading, then her children will not be able
to learn gradually, and peacefully, and in their own personal way.
Sandra
<< Actually accepting that pain and suffering are everywhere is not to
condone them. It is just an acknowledgement that it indeed happens.
From there, then, one can work towards changing that. >>
Unschooling wasn't well known or accepted when I started doing it. I got help
from families who were doing it pretty much in isolation. I got bad examples
from families who were using structure, and their kids didn't much like them
anymore (nor did they much seem to like their kids).
I came into contact with people who had NO living local examples, one way or
another. On Prodigy and earlier AOL, and now with internet forums. There is
more homeschooling information to be had in an hour nowadays than I could get
by any means in a year when Kirby was five and didn't go to kindergarten.
<<Attacking and
inflicting pain and suffering to those who create pain and suffering
is not going to stop the cycle but feed it. >>
I hope you didn't intend to say that I had attacked and inflicted pain.
Defending natural reading methods isn't an attack on anything but the idea
that children can't learn to read naturally. I know with absolute certainty
that they can.
But I know with certainty that a mom can't even begin to help that happen if
she doesn't believe it CAN happen. If a mom is convinced that teaching
phonics is a prerequisite to them reading, then her children will not be able
to learn gradually, and peacefully, and in their own personal way.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/2002 5:36:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
liza@... writes:
think people are sometimes hearing it as if it is true, but that it isn't
intended at ALL so that nobody is TRYING to do that.
I think this is a "READING" issue in more ways than one. Most of the time, it
is safe to assume that people posting here on a regular basis and offering
ideas and information and vignettes from their own lives and confessing to
their own problematic areas and joyfully describing their wonderful
unschooling moments --- it is safe to find a way to read what they write in a
tone of voice that is super kind and helpful! Remember, the only tone you
hear in what people write is a tone in your own head -- you can control it.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza@... writes:
> Trying to convert them or conquer them by attacking them orWhich implies that someone here is DOING that, which I don't think is true. I
> ostracize them is not.
think people are sometimes hearing it as if it is true, but that it isn't
intended at ALL so that nobody is TRYING to do that.
I think this is a "READING" issue in more ways than one. Most of the time, it
is safe to assume that people posting here on a regular basis and offering
ideas and information and vignettes from their own lives and confessing to
their own problematic areas and joyfully describing their wonderful
unschooling moments --- it is safe to find a way to read what they write in a
tone of voice that is super kind and helpful! Remember, the only tone you
hear in what people write is a tone in your own head -- you can control it.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liza Sabater
To all,
People have complained. You can agree or disagree, but most
importantly, you can just "listen" for what the complaint brings.
What you may have "listened" is that you (meaning the people
partaking in a discussion) are wrong. When I read complaints like
that what I listen is that maybe the focus of the rebuttals could
need a little bit of tweaking and less "passion" in the choice of
words. It could also mean that these newbies may have to wait a bit
longer to understand the diversity of "humors" on this list. The
thing is that, I find that most unschooling discussion lists carry a
similar tone --and that may have to do with the fact that most of the
same people are in these lists.
The bottom line is that, when people work up the courage to present
these complaints, we all should listen. The you in my previous post
was not a personal you but a collective you. Now, notice I did not
say "change" or "you are wrong" or "that is not true". I am choosing
my words very deliberately because (1) I am not talking to you/you
but a whole community; (2) this is not about rights or wrongs; this
is just about having more effective communication.
Newbies have communicated and we all can choose to acknowledge the
communication or dismiss it. The people that post most of the time on
the list will have bearing on how the newbies regard the WHOLE
community represented in the list.
HARMONY, as a practice in choosing our words, is not so much about
who we are as individuals but what we want to be as a community.
Best,
Liza
People have complained. You can agree or disagree, but most
importantly, you can just "listen" for what the complaint brings.
What you may have "listened" is that you (meaning the people
partaking in a discussion) are wrong. When I read complaints like
that what I listen is that maybe the focus of the rebuttals could
need a little bit of tweaking and less "passion" in the choice of
words. It could also mean that these newbies may have to wait a bit
longer to understand the diversity of "humors" on this list. The
thing is that, I find that most unschooling discussion lists carry a
similar tone --and that may have to do with the fact that most of the
same people are in these lists.
The bottom line is that, when people work up the courage to present
these complaints, we all should listen. The you in my previous post
was not a personal you but a collective you. Now, notice I did not
say "change" or "you are wrong" or "that is not true". I am choosing
my words very deliberately because (1) I am not talking to you/you
but a whole community; (2) this is not about rights or wrongs; this
is just about having more effective communication.
Newbies have communicated and we all can choose to acknowledge the
communication or dismiss it. The people that post most of the time on
the list will have bearing on how the newbies regard the WHOLE
community represented in the list.
HARMONY, as a practice in choosing our words, is not so much about
who we are as individuals but what we want to be as a community.
Best,
Liza
>In a message dated 8/5/2002 5:36:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>liza@... writes:
>
>
>> Trying to convert them or conquer them by attacking them or
>> ostracize them is not.
>
>Which implies that someone here is DOING that, which I don't think is true. I
>think people are sometimes hearing it as if it is true, but that it isn't
>intended at ALL so that nobody is TRYING to do that.
>
>I think this is a "READING" issue in more ways than one. Most of the time, it
>is safe to assume that people posting here on a regular basis and offering
>ideas and information and vignettes from their own lives and confessing to
>their own problematic areas and joyfully describing their wonderful
>unschooling moments --- it is safe to find a way to read what they write in a
>tone of voice that is super kind and helpful! Remember, the only tone you
>hear in what people write is a tone in your own head -- you can control it.
>
>--pamS
>
[email protected]
thank you Liza.. VERY well said
L
L
----- Original Message -----
From: Liza Sabater
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: scaring the newbies
>Wouldn't the world be more harmonious if we all just give up this divisive
>homeschooling folly and accept the culture's decision to have schools, and
>send our children back to school, and peacefully live in that culture with an
>attitude of acceptance?
>
>It WOULD be more harmonious.
>
>Sandra
Actually accepting that pain and suffering are everywhere is not to
condone them. It is just an acknowledgement that it indeed happens.
From there, then, one can work towards changing that. Attacking and
inflicting pain and suffering to those who create pain and suffering
is not going to stop the cycle but feed it. Accepting that there are
indeed people who do not agree with your ideas is cultivating
harmony. Trying to convert them or conquer them by attacking them or
ostracize them is not.
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
Liza Sabater wrote:
right? And you are suggesting that people on the list should "modify their
tone" so as to not upset some of the members? Let me come out of long term
lurkville to suggest that from my point of view the "passion" in the tone of
voice is of great value to me. I can go all over the net and watch people
patting themselves on the back and using LLLLOvely words to express exactly
nothing.
And when someone jumps into a new list or discussion area with a "play nice
you're upsetting me message" it sets off big warning bells for me. I know I
would never assume that what I thought about a brand new list was so valuable
I'd try to get other people, long term members of an existing list, to do what
I wanted without trying to figure out what was really going on first. In
short, if someone does something like that I expect that they have some sort
of an agenda. At the least they are pretty self-centered and rude.
seem calm, sane, and reasonable to you. We all experience things through the
lens of our own experience and perceptions. In my own experience, when people
start crying "play fair" it has usually meant that the ones with power didn't
want anyone upsetting them by mentioning some essentially unfair advantage
they held and yet refused to acknowledge as part of the dynamic. It might have
been a clique of girls as school who were taking turns picking on one of the
members. It might have been someone who did something awful to their child but
thought to mention it was beyond the pale: the whole it's not wrong to hit,
it's wrong to flinch ideology. The point is, some people feel that saying what
they mean and meaning what they say is o.k. and that there isn't really some
higher standard of compassionate communication that the holy adhere too. The
honest among us admit that we all have some sort of agenda and that in
communicating about things that we care deeply about on email lists we are
also attempting to gain the approval of our audience. So, to come onto a list
and cry "Play fair" one would have to ask by what rules? Who profits?
valuable things to say should change what they have to say so that the people
with the least amount of experience and, as far as we know, the least amount
to say about the subject, should feel comfortable and in their element? I
certainly didn't feel that I had the right to butt in and tell people to
behave in a certain way when I joined this list. My own opinion is that
telling people what is rude and unpolite is one of the rudest things a person
can do.
know how much there is to be learned in that. Might make a good support list
for feeling good. I have other places and lists where I go to get pats on the
back and kudos from those who think much as I do. I love those places but I
don't always learn new things there. I think we learn the most when we go
beyond our usual boundaries and comfort zones.
Peggy
>Let me get this straight, there are how many people on this list? Hundreds
> To all,
>
> People have complained. You can agree or disagree, but most
> importantly, you can just "listen" for what the complaint brings.
> What you may have "listened" is that you (meaning the people
> partaking in a discussion) are wrong. When I read complaints like
> that what I listen is that maybe the focus of the rebuttals could
> need a little bit of tweaking and less "passion" in the choice of
> words. It could also mean that these newbies may have to wait a bit
> longer to understand the diversity of "humors" on this list. The
> thing is that, I find that most unschooling discussion lists carry a
> similar tone --and that may have to do with the fact that most of the
> same people are in these lists.
right? And you are suggesting that people on the list should "modify their
tone" so as to not upset some of the members? Let me come out of long term
lurkville to suggest that from my point of view the "passion" in the tone of
voice is of great value to me. I can go all over the net and watch people
patting themselves on the back and using LLLLOvely words to express exactly
nothing.
And when someone jumps into a new list or discussion area with a "play nice
you're upsetting me message" it sets off big warning bells for me. I know I
would never assume that what I thought about a brand new list was so valuable
I'd try to get other people, long term members of an existing list, to do what
I wanted without trying to figure out what was really going on first. In
short, if someone does something like that I expect that they have some sort
of an agenda. At the least they are pretty self-centered and rude.
>There are all sorts of "communication". And the examples you have given might
> The bottom line is that, when people work up the courage to present
> these complaints, we all should listen. The you in my previous post
> was not a personal you but a collective you. Now, notice I did not
> say "change" or "you are wrong" or "that is not true". I am choosing
> my words very deliberately because (1) I am not talking to you/you
> but a whole community; (2) this is not about rights or wrongs; this
> is just about having more effective communication.
seem calm, sane, and reasonable to you. We all experience things through the
lens of our own experience and perceptions. In my own experience, when people
start crying "play fair" it has usually meant that the ones with power didn't
want anyone upsetting them by mentioning some essentially unfair advantage
they held and yet refused to acknowledge as part of the dynamic. It might have
been a clique of girls as school who were taking turns picking on one of the
members. It might have been someone who did something awful to their child but
thought to mention it was beyond the pale: the whole it's not wrong to hit,
it's wrong to flinch ideology. The point is, some people feel that saying what
they mean and meaning what they say is o.k. and that there isn't really some
higher standard of compassionate communication that the holy adhere too. The
honest among us admit that we all have some sort of agenda and that in
communicating about things that we care deeply about on email lists we are
also attempting to gain the approval of our audience. So, to come onto a list
and cry "Play fair" one would have to ask by what rules? Who profits?
> Newbies have communicated and we all can choose to acknowledge theAbsolutely. So, the people on this list with the most experience and the most
> communication or dismiss it. The people that post most of the time on
> the list will have bearing on how the newbies regard the WHOLE
> community represented in the list.
valuable things to say should change what they have to say so that the people
with the least amount of experience and, as far as we know, the least amount
to say about the subject, should feel comfortable and in their element? I
certainly didn't feel that I had the right to butt in and tell people to
behave in a certain way when I joined this list. My own opinion is that
telling people what is rude and unpolite is one of the rudest things a person
can do.
>Is the point of this list to give off harmonic vibes to newcomers? I don't
> HARMONY, as a practice in choosing our words, is not so much about
> who we are as individuals but what we want to be as a community.
know how much there is to be learned in that. Might make a good support list
for feeling good. I have other places and lists where I go to get pats on the
back and kudos from those who think much as I do. I love those places but I
don't always learn new things there. I think we learn the most when we go
beyond our usual boundaries and comfort zones.
Peggy
Fetteroll
on 8/5/02 8:27 AM, Liza Sabater at liza@... wrote:
basing their beliefs on?
I suspect a lot of people feel comfortable with trying out ideas that
intrigue them in order to find the ones that work for their families. It
sounds like an unschooling process :-)
What they'll end up with is what-makes-mom-comfortable. It might be
unschooling. Then again it might not be unschooling because it's a rare
person who hasn't been affected by society's ideas about how children need
to learn and be raised. And therefore what-makes-mom-comfortable is quite
often what quiets the fears instilled by society.
If someone's goal is what-makes-mom-comfortable then trying things to see
what works will work. But if their goal is unschooling and they don't find
learning from life naturally, comfortably obvious, then
what-makes-mom-comfortable won't get them to unschooling. If they can dig
deep and analyze what's going on then they can learn to see for themselves
when they're making decisions based on fear and when they're making
decisions based on reality. Then they'll be able decide for themselves when
what-makes-mom-comfortable isn't unschooling.
That's what the discussions are about: holding fears and myths up to the
light of day. If someone doesn't feel they need the discussions, they don't
need to participate. But the discussions are *very* valuable to others.
That said, I'm not insensitive to how discussions can be irritating and seem
like just a bunch of noise. My state's homeschooling list split into 2
because of heated legal discussions: one for legal issues and one for
homeschooling. I come away from the legal issues list with an attitude of
What is the point?? and Who really cares?? But I also come away from the
other list with, well, nothing. It's full of intros and welcomes and
questions and answers about resources.
discussions is winning. But just because it's common doesn't make it right
;-)
The purpose of discussing some issue is not winning but clarity and
understanding. It's disentangling multiple issues to get to the heart of the
issue being discussed. It's evaluating the support for each sides'
conclusions to see what has a solid foundation and what crumbles.
If one person wants to offer ideas and another wants to clarify, evaluate
and disentangle, I can see how that could be perceived as an attack.
Perception doesn't make it an attack though.
Joyce
> Accepting that there areBut *why* do they disagree? Why do they believe what they do? What are they
> indeed people who do not agree with your ideas is cultivating
> harmony.
basing their beliefs on?
I suspect a lot of people feel comfortable with trying out ideas that
intrigue them in order to find the ones that work for their families. It
sounds like an unschooling process :-)
What they'll end up with is what-makes-mom-comfortable. It might be
unschooling. Then again it might not be unschooling because it's a rare
person who hasn't been affected by society's ideas about how children need
to learn and be raised. And therefore what-makes-mom-comfortable is quite
often what quiets the fears instilled by society.
If someone's goal is what-makes-mom-comfortable then trying things to see
what works will work. But if their goal is unschooling and they don't find
learning from life naturally, comfortably obvious, then
what-makes-mom-comfortable won't get them to unschooling. If they can dig
deep and analyze what's going on then they can learn to see for themselves
when they're making decisions based on fear and when they're making
decisions based on reality. Then they'll be able decide for themselves when
what-makes-mom-comfortable isn't unschooling.
That's what the discussions are about: holding fears and myths up to the
light of day. If someone doesn't feel they need the discussions, they don't
need to participate. But the discussions are *very* valuable to others.
That said, I'm not insensitive to how discussions can be irritating and seem
like just a bunch of noise. My state's homeschooling list split into 2
because of heated legal discussions: one for legal issues and one for
homeschooling. I come away from the legal issues list with an attitude of
What is the point?? and Who really cares?? But I also come away from the
other list with, well, nothing. It's full of intros and welcomes and
questions and answers about resources.
> Trying to convert them or conquer them by attacking them orIt seems to be a common perception that the goal of people involved in the
> ostracize them is not.
discussions is winning. But just because it's common doesn't make it right
;-)
The purpose of discussing some issue is not winning but clarity and
understanding. It's disentangling multiple issues to get to the heart of the
issue being discussed. It's evaluating the support for each sides'
conclusions to see what has a solid foundation and what crumbles.
If one person wants to offer ideas and another wants to clarify, evaluate
and disentangle, I can see how that could be perceived as an attack.
Perception doesn't make it an attack though.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/2002 6:18:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
right and that if I could just SAY something clearly enough and if people
would just open their minds and LISTEN to me well enough - that they'd agree
with me. I thought disagreement was a matter of not understanding.
Now I'm often way less sure that I'm right and I'm very aware and comfortable
with the idea that there are going to be people who continue to think
differently than I do!!
I don't want to change people's minds as much as offer ideas to those who DO
want to think about new stuff or think differently about old stuff <G>. I
want my ideas scrutinized because it helps ME think more clearly when I have
to respond, clarify or defend them.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> It seems to be a common perception that the goal of people involved in theI think when I was younger, that there were many times that I was sure I was
> discussions is winning. But just because it's common doesn't make it right
> ;-)
right and that if I could just SAY something clearly enough and if people
would just open their minds and LISTEN to me well enough - that they'd agree
with me. I thought disagreement was a matter of not understanding.
Now I'm often way less sure that I'm right and I'm very aware and comfortable
with the idea that there are going to be people who continue to think
differently than I do!!
I don't want to change people's minds as much as offer ideas to those who DO
want to think about new stuff or think differently about old stuff <G>. I
want my ideas scrutinized because it helps ME think more clearly when I have
to respond, clarify or defend them.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
audrey elwood
the more i grow, the less i know
audrey
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
audrey
>From: PSoroosh@..._________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
>Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:46:32 EDT
>
>In a message dated 8/6/2002 6:18:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>fetteroll@... writes:
>
>
> > It seems to be a common perception that the goal of people involved in
>the
> > discussions is winning. But just because it's common doesn't make it
>right
> > ;-)
>
>I think when I was younger, that there were many times that I was sure I
>was
>right and that if I could just SAY something clearly enough and if people
>would just open their minds and LISTEN to me well enough - that they'd
>agree
>with me. I thought disagreement was a matter of not understanding.
>
>Now I'm often way less sure that I'm right and I'm very aware and
>comfortable
>with the idea that there are going to be people who continue to think
>differently than I do!!
>
>I don't want to change people's minds as much as offer ideas to those who
>DO
>want to think about new stuff or think differently about old stuff <G>. I
>want my ideas scrutinized because it helps ME think more clearly when I
>have
>to respond, clarify or defend them.
>
>--pamS
>
>National Home Education Network
>http://www.NHEN.org
>Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/02 11:13:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
audreyelwood@... writes:
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
audreyelwood@... writes:
> the more i grow, the less i knowI would say that the more I grow, the more I find what I can know.
> audrey
>
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
audrey elwood
absolutely!that's actually an old lyric from an ex- boyfriends(none other
than kip winger)song that came to mind.but io do find that every new bit of
knowledge opens a vast new world, therefore, my awareness of how little i
actually know...it's a humbling experience.
audrey
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
than kip winger)song that came to mind.but io do find that every new bit of
knowledge opens a vast new world, therefore, my awareness of how little i
actually know...it's a humbling experience.
audrey
>From: Dnowens@..._________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
>Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:30:49 EDT
>
>In a message dated 8/6/02 11:13:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
>audreyelwood@... writes:
>
>
> > the more i grow, the less i know
> > audrey
> >
>
>I would say that the more I grow, the more I find what I can know.
>~Nancy
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Heaven L
audrey,
Your ex-boyfriend was kip winger?
Tina
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Your ex-boyfriend was kip winger?
Tina
>From: "audrey elwood" <audreyelwood@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
>Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 16:53:28 +0000
>
>absolutely!that's actually an old lyric from an ex- boyfriends(none other
>than kip winger)song that came to mind.but io do find that every new bit of
>knowledge opens a vast new world, therefore, my awareness of how little i
>actually know...it's a humbling experience.
>audrey
>
>
> >From: Dnowens@...
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
> >Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:30:49 EDT
> >
> >In a message dated 8/6/02 11:13:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
> >audreyelwood@... writes:
> >
> >
> > > the more i grow, the less i know
> > > audrey
> > >
> >
> >I would say that the more I grow, the more I find what I can know.
> >~Nancy
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
audrey elwood
i thought someone might ask.we met in a ballet class in denver in 1980. i
was 18 he was 20. moved to new york tog.we lived tog for three years before
he dumped me.
audrey
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
was 18 he was 20. moved to new york tog.we lived tog for three years before
he dumped me.
audrey
>From: "Heaven L" <takemehigher_44035@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
>Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 13:48:26 -0400
>
>audrey,
>
>Your ex-boyfriend was kip winger?
>
>Tina
>
>
> >From: "audrey elwood" <audreyelwood@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
> >Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 16:53:28 +0000
> >
> >absolutely!that's actually an old lyric from an ex- boyfriends(none other
> >than kip winger)song that came to mind.but io do find that every new bit
>of
> >knowledge opens a vast new world, therefore, my awareness of how little i
> >actually know...it's a humbling experience.
> >audrey
> >
> >
> > >From: Dnowens@...
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
> > >Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:30:49 EDT
> > >
> > >In a message dated 8/6/02 11:13:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
> > >audreyelwood@... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > the more i grow, the less i know
> > > > audrey
> > > >
> > >
> > >I would say that the more I grow, the more I find what I can know.
> > >~Nancy
> > >
> > >
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> >
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Heaven L
sigh...lucky girl...i'd love to take this discussion in email...i have a
zillion questions that are completely off topic. I think asking if he was a
good kisser would be completely OFF TOPIC HAHAHA
TINA
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
zillion questions that are completely off topic. I think asking if he was a
good kisser would be completely OFF TOPIC HAHAHA
TINA
>From: "audrey elwood" <audreyelwood@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
>Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:49:48 +0000
>
>i thought someone might ask.we met in a ballet class in denver in 1980. i
>was 18 he was 20. moved to new york tog.we lived tog for three years
>before
>he dumped me.
>audrey
>
>
> >From: "Heaven L" <takemehigher_44035@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
> >Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 13:48:26 -0400
> >
> >audrey,
> >
> >Your ex-boyfriend was kip winger?
> >
> >Tina
> >
> >
> > >From: "audrey elwood" <audreyelwood@...>
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
> > >Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 16:53:28 +0000
> > >
> > >absolutely!that's actually an old lyric from an ex- boyfriends(none
>other
> > >than kip winger)song that came to mind.but io do find that every new
>bit
> >of
> > >knowledge opens a vast new world, therefore, my awareness of how little
>i
> > >actually know...it's a humbling experience.
> > >audrey
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Dnowens@...
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] scaring the newbies
> > > >Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:30:49 EDT
> > > >
> > > >In a message dated 8/6/02 11:13:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
> > > >audreyelwood@... writes:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > the more i grow, the less i know
> > > > > audrey
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >I would say that the more I grow, the more I find what I can know.
> > > >~Nancy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> >
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/2002 9:31:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Dnowens@...
writes:
It is a paradox (another thing I've learned to live with, in my OLD age <G>)
that I can say I am less absolutely certain that I'm right, but more
confident that I know a whole lot that is worthwhile passing along to others.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> > the more i grow, the less i knowThe other thing that comes with age is a sense of confidence in myself, too.
> > audrey
> >
>
> I would say that the more I grow, the more I find what I can know.
> ~Nancy
>
It is a paradox (another thing I've learned to live with, in my OLD age <G>)
that I can say I am less absolutely certain that I'm right, but more
confident that I know a whole lot that is worthwhile passing along to others.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]