Stop scaring the newbie!

Joanne Blachut

2 Aug 2002, at 9:59pm

Charles L Whittom Jr

2 Aug 2002, at 10:40pm

Joz, I am glad to see someone (like yourself) that is new to hsing-unschooling take a stand. This problem of some continually trying to argue over what someone says is a major problem with a lot of lists. What I wish is that each and every one would do is to take a few minutes to put theirselves in the other persons shoes and then to give encouragement to that person on what they did right, and then maybe give some courteous recommendations or suggestions on how they could do it better.

I know that I may be putting my own foot in where it doesn't belong, because I am a homeshooling/unschooling father and so I'm not one of the 'gals'. But I just want to say 'Welcome!'

Charles in Texas, Husband to young, father to Sasha (13), Stella (12) and Charles III (10)

----- Original Message -----
From: Joanne Blachut
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:59 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Stop scaring the newbie!

Hi guys
As a newbie at this unschooling the posts about Phonics v Natural reading
(although interesting) are beginning to scare the crap out of me about how
to go about it with my ds (6).
I also find the verbal face slapping very disconcerting. It does not make
for an inspiring board and I spend most of my time reading the posts
winceing :(
It is also making me worried about voicing any opinions or beliefs I have in
case I strike a nerve with someone and things 'get ugly'.
You guys are all a wonderful group of women with differing beliefs and
attitudes which is what makes a list like this great.
Can you all please take a deep breath, smile, and lighten up?
Love Joz
PS Am I gonna get some rude comments over this post too?

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[email protected]

2 Aug 2002, at 10:56pm

Hi guys
As a newbie at this unschooling the posts about Phonics v Natural reading
(although interesting) are beginning to scare the crap out of me about how
to go about it with my ds (6).
I also find the verbal face slapping very disconcerting. It does not make
for an inspiring board and I spend most of my time reading the posts
winceing :(
It is also making me worried about voicing any opinions or beliefs I have
in
case I strike a nerve with someone and things 'get ugly'.
You guys are all a wonderful group of women with differing beliefs and
attitudes which is what makes a list like this great.
Can you all please take a deep breath, smile, and lighten up?
Love Joz
PS Am I gonna get some rude comments over this post too?<<

Hi Joz ---

Just ignore what seems like face-slapping or whatever, to you, and read for
the content that is useful to you. That is the ONLY advice that will work
(that sounds so arrogant - but what I mean is to emphasize that I have had
years and years of experience watching lists and have never once seen any
other option work <G>). For one thing, what seems antagonistic to you might
not to people who might have known each other for years, as many people here
have. And - besides, it never ever ever does any good on any list to try to
change anybody else's posting style. It clogs up the list with posts about
posting style rather than content and nobody ever changes because someone
complains, they just dig in their heels. Things get uglier and nastier the
more people complain that they think things are ugly and nasty. Honest.

So - use your delete key or just sigh and go on when something doesn't seem
nice to you. If there are ideas or information that are useful - take them
gladly and ignore anything that isn't.

Lots of times the heated responses and disagreements generate a lot of light,
though, so don't be too eager to douse them. Sometimes it is easier to
articulate why we think the way we do when we're arguing against what someone
else thinks - we sometimes change our minds or we clarify or fine-tune our
own ideas and we have to think harder about WHY we believe what we do. It can
be argumentative and sound pretty hostile - but it is often very productive,
too.

Unschooling can be frustrating and annoying - because we often want "answers"
and what we get are a bunch of strongly held conflicting ideas. But if you
you let them sink in and float around and knock against each other in your
brain -- while you fool around with your kids and oberve other people with
their kids -- your own personal decisions and style will slowly develop out
of the mix.

--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

3 Aug 2002, at 12:18am

**

Lots of times the heated responses and disagreements generate a lot of
light, though, so don't be too eager to douse them.**

I like this! Being a former engineer, it makes me think of LEDs.

Instead of Light Emitting Diodes maybe Light Emitting Diatribes? <g>

Betsy

zenmomma *

3 Aug 2002, at 1:52pm

>>As a newbie at this unschooling the posts about Phonics v Natural reading
>>(although interesting) are beginning to scare the crap out of me about how
>>to go about it with my ds (6).>>

Hi Joz and welcome! Sorry you're feeling scared by all this talk and sorry
if I contributed to that feeling. :-/ My posts on the subject were supposed
to have the opposite effect. I truly believe that parents can calm down
about "teaching" their 6 year olds to read. I've watched both of my kids
learn using the "methods" that worked best for them. It really did work best
when I did NOT impose any one method on them. It also helps to know that 6
is not some magical reading age, no matter what the school system thinks.
Each kid is different and unschooling can allow for those differences.

So, if your 6 year old is trying to sound out words, terrific! Help him
along and give him those letter sounds and blends. If he's trying to read
signs on the road, great! Help him read them without a long instruction
lesson on why the letters make those sounds. Give him the info he needs and
wants and watch him do the rest.

Around here, we read tons of books at all different levels. We played with
those letters on the fridge (Hi Ned :o)), we labelled stuff in the house,
wrote words in the sand, made our names out of clay, read cereal boxes and
stop signs. We used Bob Books, Dr. Seuss, Magic Treehouse books, comics,
Pokemon cards, magazines, TV captioning, all of it. We did what was fun and
left behind the rest. Casey even loved workbooks when she was 3 and 4 and
did those non-stop it seemed. Conor did none. They are 8 and 13 now and both
reading. It happens. Please try not to worry.

>>I also find the verbal face slapping very disconcerting. It does not make
>>for an inspiring board and I spend most of my time reading the posts
>>winceing :( It is also making me worried about voicing any opinions or
>>beliefs I have in case I strike a nerve with someone and things 'get
>>ugly'.>>

Like Pam said, it's hard to change posting styles. (Except our own, that
is.) I know that lots of us like to have lively *debates* as it helps us
firm up our own ideas. I've never seen a newbie (or anyone really) get
slapped around. You will get disagreed with, though, if you have an "I'm
right and you're wrong" style of stating things. But that's how lots of us
have come to understand unschooling better, by challenging our own belief
systems. I, personally, try to be kind when disagreeing. I hope that comes
across in print like it does in my head as I type.

>>You guys are all a wonderful group of women with differing beliefs and
>>attitudes which is what makes a list like this great.>>

Some here are men too! And this list does have ideas and attitudes which
you're unlikely to find many other places. That can make it uncomfortable at
times and mind-blowingly wonderful at others.

Life is good.
~Mary

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Rachel Mullin

3 Aug 2002, at 2:42pm

I too have just been deleting them, and wondering why phonics and times
tables is relevant to the *unschooling* list anyway, LOL.

PS I am new too.

Rachel

-----Original Message-----
From: Joanne Blachut [mailto:zandaniel@...]
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 9:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Stop scaring the newbie!

Hi guys
As a newbie at this unschooling the posts about Phonics v Natural
reading
(although interesting) are beginning to scare the crap out of me about
how
to go about it with my ds (6).
I also find the verbal face slapping very disconcerting. It does not
make
for an inspiring board and I spend most of my time reading the posts
winceing :(
It is also making me worried about voicing any opinions or beliefs I
have in
case I strike a nerve with someone and things 'get ugly'.
You guys are all a wonderful group of women with differing beliefs and
attitudes which is what makes a list like this great.
Can you all please take a deep breath, smile, and lighten up?
Love Joz
PS Am I gonna get some rude comments over this post too?

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zenmomma *

3 Aug 2002, at 3:07pm

>>I too have just been deleting them, and wondering why phonics and times
>>tables is relevant to the *unschooling* list anyway, LOL.>>

Well let's face it, phonics and multiplication are a part of real life.
Phonics is a basic part of reading and multiplication is used lots in real
life math.

The discussion that comes up in unschooling is whether these real life
situations need to be "taught" in an artificial manner before the child ever
has a real life reason to use them. From an unschooling point of view, the
time to help a child with phonics is when they're eager to learn and asking
about letters and sounds and such. The time to stop with the phonics is when
their particular question has been answered and they've moved on.

The time for multiplication is when it would be useful for the child to
know. Like "How many weeks allowance will it take for me to save up $100?"
For that, it's pretty useful to be able to count by 5's or 10's or whatever
the weekly allowance is. That's a good intro into multiplication. Do they
need to memorize multiplication tables and do it by age 9? The schools would
tell us yes. An unschooler would say no, they need an understanding of how
numbers work and eventually some numbers rules to get to the answers they
need more easily. And they'll get that through using the numbers. Just like
they'll get the phonics concepts a little at a time as they're figuring out
reading.

>>PS I am new too.>>

Welcome Rachel and all you other newbies who might be lurking out there. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary

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[email protected]

3 Aug 2002, at 4:24pm

In a message dated 8/3/2002 11:43:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rachel@... writes:

> I too have just been deleting them, and wondering why phonics and times
> tables is relevant to the *unschooling* list anyway, LOL.
>

As an unschooler - I expect that my kids will learn to sound out words
(phonics) and will learn to multiply (multiplication tables). Unschooling
doesn't mean "unlearning" <G>. I don't "make them learn" and I don't plan
their learning in some systematic structured progressive bit-by-bit way. But
I do have a lot of ideas and fun and interesting possibilities always at my
fingertips -- that's how we live our lives. I treat multiplication tables as
a potentially interesting and useful thing to know or do in the same way I
treat riding a horse, clearing the dinner table, going to an opera, or
reading a book.

So - you'd have to know that, I guess, or you might think I was suggesting
sitting your kid down and telling them, "Now is multiplication time - please
fill out this chart in this way using these colored pencils." No -- we're not
doing that. In fact, I'm more likely to fool with it myself and then "let"
the kids do one too, if they ask. Or - I might say, "Here - I had this cool
idea about multiplying - wanna see it?" OR - a kid might moan and groan that
they don't know multiplication facts and it is slowing them down in some
other activity their trying to pursue - so I might tell them that I have some
pretty fun ways in mind that can help them learn them.

It is always an offer and it is always something that they can take or leave
or expand or cut short or whatever.

I agree - a formal phonics or math program would not be appropriate to
suggest on an unschooling list. Thanks for pointing that out, Rachel, and
giving me the opportunity to clarify how I intended the multiplication stuff
to be considered - just as something fun that kids and parents might enjoy,
not as a "lesson," by any means.

You should have seen me sitting here drawing the spirolaterals the other day
-- I had a bunch of kids here and after 5 minutes they were all drawing and
coloring too. That's just for fun, not school <BEG>.

--pamS

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