Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Phonics, Key to reading [and Numbers, key to math?)
debi watson
Don't you think there is a real correlation between Kohl's open classroom and unschooling? Some of his philosophies are what inspired me to unschool even before I had heard that term! Debi
-
From: SandraDodd@...
Like the open classroom which had MANY proponents and supporters at all
levels in its day.
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-
From: SandraDodd@...
Like the open classroom which had MANY proponents and supporters at all
levels in its day.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/27/02 12:09:41 PM, PSoroosh@... writes:
<< And, being resentful of having whole language forced on them
- they sabotaged it - they needed to prove it wouldn't really work. >>
Same with "new math." Teachers said "That's stupid" without even looking at
it.
And they still had to keep taking graduate-level courses which told them the
same things we say here all the time, that kids need to understand
mathematics before you talk about it, and they need to touch and draw and
group and rearrange. But once they get that grade/credit, they go back to
the drill'n'kill same old stuff. Not all of them. But most of them.
<<I feel really lucky my kids
got into some of the experimental first tries at it - with teachers who had
fallen in love with the idea and wanted, badly, to make it work. None of them
are doing it anymore - >>
Like the open classroom which had MANY proponents and supporters at all
levels in its day.
Sandra
<< And, being resentful of having whole language forced on them
- they sabotaged it - they needed to prove it wouldn't really work. >>
Same with "new math." Teachers said "That's stupid" without even looking at
it.
And they still had to keep taking graduate-level courses which told them the
same things we say here all the time, that kids need to understand
mathematics before you talk about it, and they need to touch and draw and
group and rearrange. But once they get that grade/credit, they go back to
the drill'n'kill same old stuff. Not all of them. But most of them.
<<I feel really lucky my kids
got into some of the experimental first tries at it - with teachers who had
fallen in love with the idea and wanted, badly, to make it work. None of them
are doing it anymore - >>
Like the open classroom which had MANY proponents and supporters at all
levels in its day.
Sandra
zenmomma *
>>Like the open classroom which had MANY proponents and supporters at allWhen I used to live in Boulder, the term open classroom was practically spat
>>levels in its day.>>
out when someone would mention it. People were angry because of its
"failure" and all he money that was put into it. :-/ I'm suspectingonly a
small group of core supporters got it goingin the first place.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 7/27/02 12:24:10 PM, debiwatson@... writes:
<< Don't you think there is a real correlation between Kohl's open classroom
and unschooling? Some of his philosophies are what inspired me to unschool
even before I had heard that term! Debi >>
Absolutely.
It didn't work in schools where kids had no choice to just walk out, or where
teachers could just wait two or three years, trusting that the kids would get
interested in something. Even with open classroom practices in ideal
situations, teachers were expected to show that the child had put in time
(good phrase from an earlier discussion) on each state-required area. Kids
were expected to put time in at each "interest center" or whatever they were
calling their little labs and cozies.
But unschooling took the principles the school reformers were espousing in
the 60's and 70's and we can show that they DO work and those guys WERE
right, but the kid has to have more freedom and less artificiality.
That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
Sandra
<< Don't you think there is a real correlation between Kohl's open classroom
and unschooling? Some of his philosophies are what inspired me to unschool
even before I had heard that term! Debi >>
Absolutely.
It didn't work in schools where kids had no choice to just walk out, or where
teachers could just wait two or three years, trusting that the kids would get
interested in something. Even with open classroom practices in ideal
situations, teachers were expected to show that the child had put in time
(good phrase from an earlier discussion) on each state-required area. Kids
were expected to put time in at each "interest center" or whatever they were
calling their little labs and cozies.
But unschooling took the principles the school reformers were espousing in
the 60's and 70's and we can show that they DO work and those guys WERE
right, but the kid has to have more freedom and less artificiality.
That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/27/02 12:31:30 PM, zenmomma@... writes:
<< People were angry because of its
"failure" and all he money that was put into it. :-/ I'm suspectingonly a
small group of core supporters got it goingin the first place.
they wouldn't have designed, marketted and bought supplies designed for that
method, or built entire buildings on that physical-plant model.
It was proven to work in lab schools, with teachers who wanted it to work,
with students who wanted to be there (or their parents wanted them to be
there and so were behind experimentation). It was very sadly unworkable
when teachers were hostile, defensive, and kids were there because they just
happened to live in that district.
Sandra
<< People were angry because of its
"failure" and all he money that was put into it. :-/ I'm suspectingonly a
small group of core supporters got it goingin the first place.
>>If there hadn't been supporters all the way to the state and federal level,
they wouldn't have designed, marketted and bought supplies designed for that
method, or built entire buildings on that physical-plant model.
It was proven to work in lab schools, with teachers who wanted it to work,
with students who wanted to be there (or their parents wanted them to be
there and so were behind experimentation). It was very sadly unworkable
when teachers were hostile, defensive, and kids were there because they just
happened to live in that district.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>Don't you think there is a real correlation between Kohl's open classroomI read Summerhill when I was 14. That was the beginning of the end for me
>and unschooling? Some of his philosophies are what inspired me to
>unschool even before I had heard that term! Debi
as far as standard schooling went.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Liza Sabater
Hi all,
I am delurking big time for a moment of geekatude.
Everytime I start writing a reply to the Phonics thread I stop and
now I know why. It dawned on me just now that you are not talking
about Phonetics but of something else. A lot of these terms are
actually more of a US thing, so my question is, am I to assume that
Phonics is Phonetics without a context?
Spanish is my native language. I grew up in Puerto Rico where I
learned English alongside Spanish. I do not know how the techniques
of ESOL have changed but I can say that, while I was in school there,
we learned everything based on three principles: Phonetics, Etymology
and Ortography. This is how Spanish has always been taught, even in
this country. I cannot imagine learning a language any other way.
How can you learn what a word sounds like without knowing why;
especially in a country like the US, where regional accents can
boondoggle drastically a word's original sound? If Phonics is indeed
Phonetics without a context, I can see why all the craziness. It does
not mean that a child has to sit down everyday and do academic work.
It means, though, that, when learning a new word, if you do not know
why it is spelled a certain way, just get your dictionary out and
find the reason for it. This usually clarifies the sounds and
spellings of words.
It also is a cool game of sleuthing. My brother and I would spend
hours just going through dictionaries trying to find as many links
between Spanish and English words as we could find. And once I
learned other languages (French and Portuguese), it has turned into a
life long obsession. Let's take the word JOURNAL, for example. This
is what I found on Yahoo! American Heritage Dictionary:
explain the Spanish words JORNAL [hor-nal] which means day job, and
JORNADA [hor-nada] which means day trip. But once I learned French I
got easily the meanings of the words JOUR, JOURNEE, JOURNAL just by
looking at them and guessing ---I already knew what their English and
Spanish cousins meant. Then came Portuguese and JORNAL was not a
problem. Still, check at the etymological explanation. How can the
root of JOURNAL be DIURNAL? When did that D turn into a J? Call me a
geek but here I go:
the change from D to J. But, WAIT! There is that etymology key at the
end. So it is not just a D sound but a DY sound. Now, I did not know
this was the YOD of Romance languages until I was studying to be a
Spanish language teacher, STILL, as a kid, I would have killed to
have had a computer that would have given me this kind of information
so fast. This would have meant that I would have had to wait until I
could get to a public library and look into a historical dictionary.
Now, with the web, it is so easy, so here I go again:
Now, I grew up Catholic so I would have known from Catholic
iconography 'I' was translated into J, Y or G as in IAN = YANNI =
GIANNI = JAN = JOHN = JUAN. So now we are getting somewhere.
But WAIT! I had no idea up until today that DYEU means 'To shine'! So
now I also know that DIA, DAY, DIEU, DIOS are all the same!!! They
are referring to the SUN! Well, check that out!
BUT WAIT, now I also know why it is that in Spanish we say DEE-AH,
but in Brazilian Portuguese we say GEE-AH. WOW!
This, by the way, was what I would do in my classes. It was the 'did
you know' moment. I cannot tell you how much my students, young and
old, LOVED those moments. To this day I have former students stop me
and thank me for it. A lot of them say they actually ended with
minors in Spanish and still others felt they just wanted to learn
more about English and feel grateful for my making it fun and
interesting to them. I do not know what you call this kind of
teaching but I know it works. As I always said my students, we have a
lifetime to learn. Some know a little bit more than others and that's
why they teach; does not mean it is a reason to stop learning.
Would I go on a tangent like this with my 4 year old? Not all the
time, not BUT, time and again, it is by just getting lost in tangents
that he 'gets' the meanings of words. I definitely pare it down so I
won't overwhelm him because I know he will come back to it whenever
he is ready for more. We anyhow have a lifetime to learn these
things. What is important is to have the tools --without the tools,
it can be a chore, a pain in the butt or just pure hell. This way,
though, I find is waaaaaaaay more fun.
Best,
Liza
ps: I can also read Italian, so that makes 5 languages I can dabble
in. My brother dabbles in 4: Spanish, English, German and Arabic
--and he is not half the geek I am! Still, I cannot tell you how
jealous I am that he knows those other two languages. Oh well, back
to learning some more ;-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am delurking big time for a moment of geekatude.
Everytime I start writing a reply to the Phonics thread I stop and
now I know why. It dawned on me just now that you are not talking
about Phonetics but of something else. A lot of these terms are
actually more of a US thing, so my question is, am I to assume that
Phonics is Phonetics without a context?
Spanish is my native language. I grew up in Puerto Rico where I
learned English alongside Spanish. I do not know how the techniques
of ESOL have changed but I can say that, while I was in school there,
we learned everything based on three principles: Phonetics, Etymology
and Ortography. This is how Spanish has always been taught, even in
this country. I cannot imagine learning a language any other way.
How can you learn what a word sounds like without knowing why;
especially in a country like the US, where regional accents can
boondoggle drastically a word's original sound? If Phonics is indeed
Phonetics without a context, I can see why all the craziness. It does
not mean that a child has to sit down everyday and do academic work.
It means, though, that, when learning a new word, if you do not know
why it is spelled a certain way, just get your dictionary out and
find the reason for it. This usually clarifies the sounds and
spellings of words.
It also is a cool game of sleuthing. My brother and I would spend
hours just going through dictionaries trying to find as many links
between Spanish and English words as we could find. And once I
learned other languages (French and Portuguese), it has turned into a
life long obsession. Let's take the word JOURNAL, for example. This
is what I found on Yahoo! American Heritage Dictionary:
>journalNow, as a child, up to #5 I would get excited because this would
>SYLLABICATION: jour·nal
>PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: jûrnl KEY
>NOUN:
>1a. A personal record of occurrences, experiences, and reflections
>kept on a regular basis; a diary. b. An official record of daily
>proceedings, as of a legislative body. c. Nautical A ship's log.
>2. Accounting a. A daybook. b. A book of original entry in a
>double-entry system, listing all transactions and indicating the
>accounts to which they belong.
>3. A newspaper.
>4. A periodical presenting articles on a particular subject: a
>medical journal.
>5. The part of a machine shaft or axle supported by a bearing.
>ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, breviary, from Old French, daily,
>breviary, from Late Latin diurnlis, daily. See diurnal.
explain the Spanish words JORNAL [hor-nal] which means day job, and
JORNADA [hor-nada] which means day trip. But once I learned French I
got easily the meanings of the words JOUR, JOURNEE, JOURNAL just by
looking at them and guessing ---I already knew what their English and
Spanish cousins meant. Then came Portuguese and JORNAL was not a
problem. Still, check at the etymological explanation. How can the
root of JOURNAL be DIURNAL? When did that D turn into a J? Call me a
geek but here I go:
>diurnalOh, OK. So we see the meaning of diurnal but still have no idea why
>SYLLABICATION: di·ur·nal
>PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: d-ûrnl KEY
>ADJECTIVE:
>1. Relating to or occurring in a 24-hour period; daily.
>2. Occurring or active during the daytime rather than at night:
>diurnal animals.
>3. Botany Opening during daylight hours and closing at night.
>NOUN:
>1. A book containing all the offices for the daily canonical hours
>of prayer except matins.
>2. Archaic a. A diary or journal. b. A daily newspaper.
>ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Late Latin diurnlis, from Latin
>diurnus, from dis, day. See dyeu- in Appendix I.
the change from D to J. But, WAIT! There is that etymology key at the
end. So it is not just a D sound but a DY sound. Now, I did not know
this was the YOD of Romance languages until I was studying to be a
Spanish language teacher, STILL, as a kid, I would have killed to
have had a computer that would have given me this kind of information
so fast. This would have meant that I would have had to wait until I
could get to a public library and look into a historical dictionary.
Now, with the web, it is so easy, so here I go again:
>Appendix IWOW! How can you not be excited about this! Look at the first item.
>Indo-European Roots
>
>ENTRY: dyeu-
>DEFINITION: To shine (and in many derivatives, "sky, heaven,
>god"). Zero-grades *dyu- and *diw-.
>Derivatives include Tuesday, divine, jovial, Jupiter, diary, dismal,
>journey, and psychedelic.
>
>I. Basic form *dyeu-, Jove, the name of the god of the bright sky,
>head of the Indo-European pantheon. 1. Jove, jovial; Sangiovese,
>from Latin Iovis, Jupiter, or Iov-, stem of Iuppiter, Jupiter. 2.
>July, from Latin Ilius, "descended from Jupiter" (name of a Roman
>gens), from derivative *iou-il-. 3. Vocative compound *dyeu-pter, "O
>father Jove" (*pter-, father; see pter-). Jupiter, from Latin
>Iuppiter, Ipiter, head of the Roman pantheon. 4. Dione, Zeus;
>dianthus, Dioscuri, from Greek Zeus (genitive Dios), Zeus.
>
>II. Noun *deiwos, god, formed by e-insertion to the zero-grade *diw-
>and suffixation of (accented) -o-. 1a. Tiu, Tuesday, from Old
>English Tw (genitive Twes), god of war and sky; b. Tyr, from Old
>Norse Tr, sky god. Both a and b from Germanic *Twaz. 2. deism,
>deity, Deus, joss; adieu, deific, from Latin deus, god. 3. diva,
>divine, from Latin dvus, divine, god. 4. Dis, Dives, from Latin
>dves, rich (< "fortunate, blessed, divine"). 5. Suffixed zero-grade
>form *diw-yo-, heavenly. Diana, from Latin Dina, moon goddess. 6.
>Devi; deodar, Devanagari, from Sanskrit deva, god, and deva-,
>divine. 7. Asmodeus, from Avestan dava-, spirit, demon.
>
>III. Variant *dy- (< *dye-). dial, diary, diet2, dismal, diurnal,
>journal, journey; adjourn, circadian, meridian, postmeridian,
>quotidian, sojourn, from Latin dis, day.
>
>IV. Variant *dei-. psychedelic, woolly adelgid, from Greek dlos (<
>*deyalos), clear. (Pokorny 1. dei- 183.)
Now, I grew up Catholic so I would have known from Catholic
iconography 'I' was translated into J, Y or G as in IAN = YANNI =
GIANNI = JAN = JOHN = JUAN. So now we are getting somewhere.
But WAIT! I had no idea up until today that DYEU means 'To shine'! So
now I also know that DIA, DAY, DIEU, DIOS are all the same!!! They
are referring to the SUN! Well, check that out!
BUT WAIT, now I also know why it is that in Spanish we say DEE-AH,
but in Brazilian Portuguese we say GEE-AH. WOW!
This, by the way, was what I would do in my classes. It was the 'did
you know' moment. I cannot tell you how much my students, young and
old, LOVED those moments. To this day I have former students stop me
and thank me for it. A lot of them say they actually ended with
minors in Spanish and still others felt they just wanted to learn
more about English and feel grateful for my making it fun and
interesting to them. I do not know what you call this kind of
teaching but I know it works. As I always said my students, we have a
lifetime to learn. Some know a little bit more than others and that's
why they teach; does not mean it is a reason to stop learning.
Would I go on a tangent like this with my 4 year old? Not all the
time, not BUT, time and again, it is by just getting lost in tangents
that he 'gets' the meanings of words. I definitely pare it down so I
won't overwhelm him because I know he will come back to it whenever
he is ready for more. We anyhow have a lifetime to learn these
things. What is important is to have the tools --without the tools,
it can be a chore, a pain in the butt or just pure hell. This way,
though, I find is waaaaaaaay more fun.
Best,
Liza
ps: I can also read Italian, so that makes 5 languages I can dabble
in. My brother dabbles in 4: Spanish, English, German and Arabic
--and he is not half the geek I am! Still, I cannot tell you how
jealous I am that he knows those other two languages. Oh well, back
to learning some more ;-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
Totally cool post, Liza! I think you might really like the mother in "Davita's Harp" -- a novel by Chaim Potok. Although she tended to maybe be a little bit cold as a mother figure, she had an absolute love of words and meanings and language, and anytime her daughter, Davita, asked about a word she would get a respectful mini-lesson in its roots. I can do this a bit (I studied both Hebrew and Spanish) but I never had a teacher that would follow me there. It's something I am trying to pass on to my kids, and I am trying to teach myself Latin to aid in this endeavor. Anyone know any really great etymological tools? (I hesitate to say "curricula" as that makes it sound school-y, and I am wanting to learn for the sheer interest of it. Not a lot of Latin speakers around to sit and soak it up with, though (I tried sitting in on a court session in case maybe they tossed a lot of Latin terms around, but I was sadly disappointed). Not sure how else to pursue it. Debi
especially in a country like the US, where regional accents can
boondoggle drastically a word's original sound?(snip)
What is important is to have the tools --without the tools,
it can be a chore, a pain in the butt or just pure hell. This way,
though, I find is waaaaaaaay more fun.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> I cannot imagine learning a language any other way.(snip)How can you learn what a word sounds like without knowing why;
especially in a country like the US, where regional accents can
boondoggle drastically a word's original sound?(snip)
What is important is to have the tools --without the tools,
it can be a chore, a pain in the butt or just pure hell. This way,
though, I find is waaaaaaaay more fun.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**
Same with "new math." Teachers said "That's stupid" without even
looking at
it.
And they still had to keep taking graduate-level courses which told them
the
same things we say here all the time, that kids need to understand
mathematics before you talk about it, and they need to touch and draw
and
group and rearrange. But once they get that grade/credit, they go back
to
the drill'n'kill same old stuff. Not all of them. But most of them.**
Thursday night my dh was finishing a paper (for summer school Ed. class)
about "math wars" over "the new new math".
I looked at a bunch of the articles he found on the internet and I have
to say I don't think most reporters grasped the reasons that the NCASM
(?) recommended such drastic changes in the math curriculum. (I
couldn't find it justified in anything I read.) Obviously these experts
didn't succeed in selling their theory to parents and teachers. (I read
a lot of articles about parent-led protests over the changes.)
Pam -- do you have an understanding of what the impetus was for the
reforms in math curriculums? How much research, in reastic settings,
supported the newer approach to math? (I'm guessing that the NCASM
wrote volumes about this, I'm just looking for something brief and superficial.)
I had the old "new math" when I was in school, in the late sixties, and
I really liked it.
Betsy
Same with "new math." Teachers said "That's stupid" without even
looking at
it.
And they still had to keep taking graduate-level courses which told them
the
same things we say here all the time, that kids need to understand
mathematics before you talk about it, and they need to touch and draw
and
group and rearrange. But once they get that grade/credit, they go back
to
the drill'n'kill same old stuff. Not all of them. But most of them.**
Thursday night my dh was finishing a paper (for summer school Ed. class)
about "math wars" over "the new new math".
I looked at a bunch of the articles he found on the internet and I have
to say I don't think most reporters grasped the reasons that the NCASM
(?) recommended such drastic changes in the math curriculum. (I
couldn't find it justified in anything I read.) Obviously these experts
didn't succeed in selling their theory to parents and teachers. (I read
a lot of articles about parent-led protests over the changes.)
Pam -- do you have an understanding of what the impetus was for the
reforms in math curriculums? How much research, in reastic settings,
supported the newer approach to math? (I'm guessing that the NCASM
wrote volumes about this, I'm just looking for something brief and superficial.)
I had the old "new math" when I was in school, in the late sixties, and
I really liked it.
Betsy
[email protected]
Dutch:
Vader Jacob, vader Jacob
Slaapt gij nog, slaapt gij nog?
Alle klokken luiden, alle klokken luiden
Bim bam bom, bim bam bom.
English:
Are you sleeping, are you sleeping,
Brother John, brother John,
Morning Bells are ringing, Morning Bells are ringing,
Ding ding dong, ding ding dong.
French:
Frère Jaques, Frère Jaques
Dormez-vous, dormez-vous?
Sonnez les matines, Sonnez les matines,
Ding ding dong, ding ding dong.
German:
Bruder Jakob, Bruder Jakob,
Schläfst du noch? Schläfst du noch?
Hörst du nicht die Glocken? Hörst du nicht die Glocken?
Ding dang dong, ding dang dong.
Italian:
Fra Martino, campanaro
dormi tu? dormi tu?
Suona le campane! Suona le campane!
Din don dan, din don dan.
Latin:
Quare dormis, o Iacobe,
Etiam nunc, etiam nunc?
Resonant campanae, Resonant campanae,
Ding, dong, dong, ding, dong, dong.
Norwegian:
Fader Jacob, Fader Jacob,
sover du, sover du?
hører du ei klokken, hører du ei klokken?
Ding dang dong, ding dang dong.
Spanish:
Martinillo, martinillo
Donde esta, donde esta
Toca la compana, Toca la compana,
Din, don , dan, din, don, dan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ôôÃÃˇˇÕ†p´
Vader Jacob, vader Jacob
Slaapt gij nog, slaapt gij nog?
Alle klokken luiden, alle klokken luiden
Bim bam bom, bim bam bom.
English:
Are you sleeping, are you sleeping,
Brother John, brother John,
Morning Bells are ringing, Morning Bells are ringing,
Ding ding dong, ding ding dong.
French:
Frère Jaques, Frère Jaques
Dormez-vous, dormez-vous?
Sonnez les matines, Sonnez les matines,
Ding ding dong, ding ding dong.
German:
Bruder Jakob, Bruder Jakob,
Schläfst du noch? Schläfst du noch?
Hörst du nicht die Glocken? Hörst du nicht die Glocken?
Ding dang dong, ding dang dong.
Italian:
Fra Martino, campanaro
dormi tu? dormi tu?
Suona le campane! Suona le campane!
Din don dan, din don dan.
Latin:
Quare dormis, o Iacobe,
Etiam nunc, etiam nunc?
Resonant campanae, Resonant campanae,
Ding, dong, dong, ding, dong, dong.
Norwegian:
Fader Jacob, Fader Jacob,
sover du, sover du?
hører du ei klokken, hører du ei klokken?
Ding dang dong, ding dang dong.
Spanish:
Martinillo, martinillo
Donde esta, donde esta
Toca la compana, Toca la compana,
Din, don , dan, din, don, dan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ôôÃÃˇˇÕ†p´
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/27/02 4:09:13 PM, debiwatson@... writes:
<< Anyone know any really great etymological tools? >>
A paperback American Heritage Dictionary with the indo-european roots section
(or the hardback with same, but double check, because their encyclopedic
dictionary traded in etymology for lots of photos and charts and full-page
extravaganzas which are also cool).
Look up
ship
book
winter (and the indo european on them all)
Sandra
<< Anyone know any really great etymological tools? >>
A paperback American Heritage Dictionary with the indo-european roots section
(or the hardback with same, but double check, because their encyclopedic
dictionary traded in etymology for lots of photos and charts and full-page
extravaganzas which are also cool).
Look up
ship
book
winter (and the indo european on them all)
Sandra
[email protected]
OH that's sad.
The Frere Jacques lyrics overwrote the post.
Darn it. I have company coming and can't rewrite it right now.
I love Liza's post and said I was excited about the history of "journal" and
that my kids learned "two" as the spelling for the number very early on
becase of two ballads, "Twa Sisters" and "Twa Corbies," and that it's related
to twin, twice, and I don't know what else I wrote.
And then that while looking for cello/recorder music I had found those
lyrics, printed them and stuck them in the bathroom the other day.
The quickie version of a longer more interesting post. :-/
The Frere Jacques lyrics overwrote the post.
Darn it. I have company coming and can't rewrite it right now.
I love Liza's post and said I was excited about the history of "journal" and
that my kids learned "two" as the spelling for the number very early on
becase of two ballads, "Twa Sisters" and "Twa Corbies," and that it's related
to twin, twice, and I don't know what else I wrote.
And then that while looking for cello/recorder music I had found those
lyrics, printed them and stuck them in the bathroom the other day.
The quickie version of a longer more interesting post. :-/
zenmomma *
Casey learned to sing Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star in Latin:
Mica, mica parva stella
Tu es vero satis bella
Lucen super hoc mundo
Velut gemma in caelo
Mica, mica parva stella
Tu es vero satis bella
Remember to pronounce the v's like w's.
Life is good.
~Mary
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Mica, mica parva stella
Tu es vero satis bella
Lucen super hoc mundo
Velut gemma in caelo
Mica, mica parva stella
Tu es vero satis bella
Remember to pronounce the v's like w's.
Life is good.
~Mary
>Dutch:_________________________________________________________________
>Vader Jacob, vader Jacob
>Slaapt gij nog, slaapt gij nog?
>Alle klokken luiden, alle klokken luiden
>Bim bam bom, bim bam bom.
>
>English:
>Are you sleeping, are you sleeping,
>Brother John, brother John,
>Morning Bells are ringing, Morning Bells are ringing,
>Ding ding dong, ding ding dong.
>
>French:
>Fr��re Jaques, Fr��re Jaques
>Dormez-vous, dormez-vous?
>Sonnez les matines, Sonnez les matines,
>Ding ding dong, ding ding dong.
>
>German:
>Bruder Jakob, Bruder Jakob,
>Schl��fst du noch? Schl��fst du noch?
>H��rst du nicht die Glocken? H��rst du nicht die Glocken?
>Ding dang dong, ding dang dong.
>
>Italian:
>Fra Martino, campanaro
>dormi tu? dormi tu?
>Suona le campane! Suona le campane!
>Din don dan, din don dan.
>
>Latin:
>Quare dormis, o Iacobe,
>Etiam nunc, etiam nunc?
>Resonant campanae, Resonant campanae,
>Ding, dong, dong, ding, dong, dong.
>
>Norwegian:
>Fader Jacob, Fader Jacob,
>sover du, sover du?
>h��rer du ei klokken, h��rer du ei klokken?
>Ding dang dong, ding dang dong.
>
>Spanish:
>Martinillo, martinillo
>Donde esta, donde esta
>Toca la compana, Toca la compana,
>Din, don , dan, din, don, dan
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
[email protected]
On Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:03:13 -0600 "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
writes:
Latin is the other way around?
So the name of the rock Mica is from the Latin word for twinkle? Makes
sense. Or is twinkle not an excat translation? And I through bella was
beautiful?
Speaking of mica, we were up in gold country camping a few weeks ago and
we found some rocks in the river that flaked like mica but were gold
colored, rather than silver. Any ideas? They ranged from really tiny to
maybe 3/4 of an inch in diameter, so they made great pretend gold...
Dar
writes:
> Casey learned to sing Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star in Latin:Way cool. I knew that W is pronounced as v is German, as in Wagner...so
>
> Mica, mica parva stella
> Tu es vero satis bella
> Lucen super hoc mundo
> Velut gemma in caelo
> Mica, mica parva stella
> Tu es vero satis bella
>
> Remember to pronounce the v's like w's.
Latin is the other way around?
So the name of the rock Mica is from the Latin word for twinkle? Makes
sense. Or is twinkle not an excat translation? And I through bella was
beautiful?
Speaking of mica, we were up in gold country camping a few weeks ago and
we found some rocks in the river that flaked like mica but were gold
colored, rather than silver. Any ideas? They ranged from really tiny to
maybe 3/4 of an inch in diameter, so they made great pretend gold...
Dar
Liza Sabater
THANX!
I've never read that story but I'll check it out.
A little bit of personal trivia: My last name is Catalán for
shoemaker. Now, I am a Caribbean mutt, so this is but just one aspect
of my heritage. What is interesting is that, even though up to this
date the Catalonian Sabater [sa-ba-TER] identify themselves as
Catholic, there are some Jewish genealogists who claim that it is a
converto last name. The last name is from Barcelona and although, on
one level it means the first Sabater was part of a guild; on another
level, it means it could be a Jewish last name.
Catalonia became a safe-heaven to Jews fleeing Castille & Leon and
most of the working and middle class in that region were Jews. So
there is a great historical probability that Sabater is indeed a
Jewish last name (as well a code word for the Sabbath). Given that my
great-grandfather was a son of the original Sabater hacendado that
settled in Puerto Rico (he wasn't a slave with a given name but a
legitimate 'bastardo'), that would technically make part of my
heritage Jewish!
I've been pondering your book question and really, the only answer is
to get a dictionary with a really good etymological section or, just
for kicks, a good etymological dictionary. They can be expensive,
though. That's why I findYahoo!Reference such a valuable resource. I
also love Larrouse on the web.
I personally have been avoiding formal education in Latin because I
don't think I can go through learning however many conjugations it
has --I had enough with Spanish, French & Portuguese. Still, if you
are not afraid of an academic text you should check out Historia de
la Lengua Española by Rafael Lapesa. It is a classic and I am
assuming that there are translations out there. As I said, it is an
academic text but makes really interesting reading. As to the Jewish
and Muslim influence in Spanish culture, you can start with Américo
Castro's classic, La realidad histórica de España.
Gotta go, Aidan is being ornery --gotta get the Spawn and Beast out
of the house.
Best,
Liza
I've never read that story but I'll check it out.
A little bit of personal trivia: My last name is Catalán for
shoemaker. Now, I am a Caribbean mutt, so this is but just one aspect
of my heritage. What is interesting is that, even though up to this
date the Catalonian Sabater [sa-ba-TER] identify themselves as
Catholic, there are some Jewish genealogists who claim that it is a
converto last name. The last name is from Barcelona and although, on
one level it means the first Sabater was part of a guild; on another
level, it means it could be a Jewish last name.
Catalonia became a safe-heaven to Jews fleeing Castille & Leon and
most of the working and middle class in that region were Jews. So
there is a great historical probability that Sabater is indeed a
Jewish last name (as well a code word for the Sabbath). Given that my
great-grandfather was a son of the original Sabater hacendado that
settled in Puerto Rico (he wasn't a slave with a given name but a
legitimate 'bastardo'), that would technically make part of my
heritage Jewish!
I've been pondering your book question and really, the only answer is
to get a dictionary with a really good etymological section or, just
for kicks, a good etymological dictionary. They can be expensive,
though. That's why I findYahoo!Reference such a valuable resource. I
also love Larrouse on the web.
I personally have been avoiding formal education in Latin because I
don't think I can go through learning however many conjugations it
has --I had enough with Spanish, French & Portuguese. Still, if you
are not afraid of an academic text you should check out Historia de
la Lengua Española by Rafael Lapesa. It is a classic and I am
assuming that there are translations out there. As I said, it is an
academic text but makes really interesting reading. As to the Jewish
and Muslim influence in Spanish culture, you can start with Américo
Castro's classic, La realidad histórica de España.
Gotta go, Aidan is being ornery --gotta get the Spawn and Beast out
of the house.
Best,
Liza
>Totally cool post, Liza! I think you might really like the mother[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>in "Davita's Harp" -- a novel by Chaim Potok. Although she tended
>to maybe be a little bit cold as a mother figure, she had an
>absolute love of words and meanings and language, and anytime her
>daughter, Davita, asked about a word she would get a respectful
>mini-lesson in its roots. I can do this a bit (I studied both
>Hebrew and Spanish) but I never had a teacher that would follow me
>there. It's something I am trying to pass on to my kids, and I am
>trying to teach myself Latin to aid in this endeavor. Anyone know
>any really great etymological tools? (I hesitate to say "curricula"
>as that makes it sound school-y, and I am wanting to learn for the
>sheer interest of it. Not a lot of Latin speakers around to sit and
>soak it up with, though (I tried sitting in on a court session in
>case maybe they tossed a lot of Latin terms around, but I was sadly
>disappointed). Not sure how else to pursue it. Debi
> >> I cannot imagine learning a language any other way.(snip)
>
> How can you learn what a word sounds like without knowing why;
> especially in a country like the US, where regional accents can
> boondoggle drastically a word's original sound?(snip)
> What is important is to have the tools --without the tools,
> it can be a chore, a pain in the butt or just pure hell. This way,
> though, I find is waaaaaaaay more fun.
>
Liza Sabater
Thanks!
The thing about this little obsession of mine is that it made things
so much easier for me given my dyslexia. That's why I can't imagine
not learning this way. And besides, every word has a story --it just
calls on my natural curiosity for things.
Best,
Liza
The thing about this little obsession of mine is that it made things
so much easier for me given my dyslexia. That's why I can't imagine
not learning this way. And besides, every word has a story --it just
calls on my natural curiosity for things.
Best,
Liza
>OH that's sad.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>The Frere Jacques lyrics overwrote the post.
>
>Darn it. I have company coming and can't rewrite it right now.
>
>I love Liza's post and said I was excited about the history of "journal" and
>that my kids learned "two" as the spelling for the number very early on
>becase of two ballads, "Twa Sisters" and "Twa Corbies," and that it's related
>to twin, twice, and I don't know what else I wrote.
>
>And then that while looking for cello/recorder music I had found those
>lyrics, printed them and stuck them in the bathroom the other day.
>
>The quickie version of a longer more interesting post. :-/
>
Gina Loree Marks
For some reason, I think I remeber being in an
open-classroom school for a few months in 2nd grade. I
can't remember what it was like exactly, but my mom
said later that I hated it!!
I can only remember being teased by a couple of boys..
Gina
"As for me, I know of nothing else but miracles."-- Walt Whitman
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com
open-classroom school for a few months in 2nd grade. I
can't remember what it was like exactly, but my mom
said later that I hated it!!
I can only remember being teased by a couple of boys..
Gina
> It was proven to work in lab schools, with teachers=====
> who wanted it to work,
> with students who wanted to be there (or their
> parents wanted them to be
> there and so were behind experimentation). It was
> very sadly unworkable
> when teachers were hostile, defensive, and kids were
> there because they just
> happened to live in that district.
>
> Sandra
"As for me, I know of nothing else but miracles."-- Walt Whitman
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/2002 7:40:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
liza@... writes:
in it as some other people are (my 14 yo, Roxana, LOVES it). I like it when
other people tell me interesting things about word origins, but I don't find
myself out looking for such information on my own. When I wanted to learn to
speak Farsi (my husband's language) - I didn't care one whit about word
origins - I just wanted to learn the words for things and how the language
was structured. What worked super well for me was very concrete learning -
I'd touch a tree and someone would say, "This is a tree. It has leaves." Then
they'd pull a leaf off and say, "This is a leaf." And so on. Then I'd do
everything I could to find opportunities to use the words I'd learned - I'd
talk about trees and leaves and so on right away and for the next week, as
often as possible. PLUS - I talked in Farsi as much as I could. If I didn't
know a word I'd try to describe it, still in Farsi (didn't know how to say
"mirror" but I said, awkwardly, "glass that I can see my face in.") and, if I
could not do that or if I needed to move on in what I was saying, I'd just
stick in English words. And, on the side, I'd read a bit about the syntax of
the language, and other stuff like that.
So - on the one hand I think it is a COOL way to learn a language if it does
draw on your own natural curiosity and, on the other hand, I just wanted to
remind people that what is very cool for one person could be very wrong for
another. I can just imagine someone trying to get their kid interested in
word origins, when the kid just wants to speak Spanish so they can understand
some other kids who speak Spanish among themselves.
It is SO tempting to think that we've got it all figured out <G> -- that
we've figured out the best way for people to learn something. Really, we've
figured out what works really well for us or for one of our kids - and once
we've done that, it is so HARD to believe that it really is NOT the best way
for everyone else. THAT is one of the great challenges for all teachers and
homeschoolers. And one of the ways in which unschoolers have really advanced
thinking.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza@... writes:
> The thing about this little obsession of mine is that it made thingsI think word origin is kind of interesting - but I'm not nearly as interested
> so much easier for me given my dyslexia. That's why I can't imagine
> not learning this way. And besides, every word has a story --it just
> calls on my natural curiosity for things.
in it as some other people are (my 14 yo, Roxana, LOVES it). I like it when
other people tell me interesting things about word origins, but I don't find
myself out looking for such information on my own. When I wanted to learn to
speak Farsi (my husband's language) - I didn't care one whit about word
origins - I just wanted to learn the words for things and how the language
was structured. What worked super well for me was very concrete learning -
I'd touch a tree and someone would say, "This is a tree. It has leaves." Then
they'd pull a leaf off and say, "This is a leaf." And so on. Then I'd do
everything I could to find opportunities to use the words I'd learned - I'd
talk about trees and leaves and so on right away and for the next week, as
often as possible. PLUS - I talked in Farsi as much as I could. If I didn't
know a word I'd try to describe it, still in Farsi (didn't know how to say
"mirror" but I said, awkwardly, "glass that I can see my face in.") and, if I
could not do that or if I needed to move on in what I was saying, I'd just
stick in English words. And, on the side, I'd read a bit about the syntax of
the language, and other stuff like that.
So - on the one hand I think it is a COOL way to learn a language if it does
draw on your own natural curiosity and, on the other hand, I just wanted to
remind people that what is very cool for one person could be very wrong for
another. I can just imagine someone trying to get their kid interested in
word origins, when the kid just wants to speak Spanish so they can understand
some other kids who speak Spanish among themselves.
It is SO tempting to think that we've got it all figured out <G> -- that
we've figured out the best way for people to learn something. Really, we've
figured out what works really well for us or for one of our kids - and once
we've done that, it is so HARD to believe that it really is NOT the best way
for everyone else. THAT is one of the great challenges for all teachers and
homeschoolers. And one of the ways in which unschoolers have really advanced
thinking.
--pamS
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liza Sabater
Well Pam, the post was not about either/or. The post was about how
Phonics, by taking away context, is robbing a lot of people of a
better understanding of the English language.
There is a moment, especially for people who want to go on to writing
and doing more abstract work, that they will need to have more than a
concrete understanding of words. I just want to bring hope to parents
that are freaking out because of their kids hardship. There is a way
of overcoming those writing road blocks and it is a way that can be
fun. I am allergic to pain, so take it from me that it can be fun.
Still, you bring an interesting issue. My exercise was not about
learning languages; it was about better understand English through
the word JOURNAL. One of the side effects is that, by doing so, one
can come across information that can broaden our knowledge of other
languages.
Learning how to speak a new language, whether French, German or
Farsi, is another story. The learning skills involved go way beyond
the scope or Phonetics or Etymology. The way you describe how you
learned to speak Farsi is very productive for learning any language.
It is the way we as babies learn how to speak. Babies do not learn
through phonics or phonetics. Babies learn by pointing to a tree and
saying "TEE". And the more they say it, the more proficient they get.
Even babies who seemed to not talk for a while and then just start
gabbing away do so in their play.
Now, Phonics may work for a while but I have found, by teaching other
languages, that people develop a better understand of the mechanics
by looking under the hood. My post had to do with that aspect of
learning how to write. Phonics seems to be a way of learning
automatically how to read or write a word without knowing the 'how'
and 'why' about it. This may make a child proficient for an
assessment exam but will not necessarily give her the tools necessary
for better expressing herself through her writing.
In my case, because I am dyslexic and because my native language is
Spanish, writing in English was a horrendously painful process that I
did not master until I turned 21. Some of it was fear and some of it
was really the chore of having to spend long hours re-writing my
work. Something clicked and what did it for me was: (1) playing more
with my dictionaries, (2) writing more, (3) reading more, (3) MSWord
spell check. I swear, it is that simple.
You can pick and choose which ever way you want to attack writing
but, any published writer will tell you the same. For that I highly
recommend Stephen King's book On Writing. It is truly a jewel (and
this coming from a woman that is too chicken to read his Scaryness).
The book that changed my life, though, was a book about Gabriel
García Márquez called History of a Deicide (Historia de un Deicidio);
written by another demi-god of Latin American literature, Mario
Vargas Llosa. Unfortunately, I believe the book is out of print.
King's book, though, I highly recommend. I really is inspirational.
Best,
Liza
Phonics, by taking away context, is robbing a lot of people of a
better understanding of the English language.
There is a moment, especially for people who want to go on to writing
and doing more abstract work, that they will need to have more than a
concrete understanding of words. I just want to bring hope to parents
that are freaking out because of their kids hardship. There is a way
of overcoming those writing road blocks and it is a way that can be
fun. I am allergic to pain, so take it from me that it can be fun.
Still, you bring an interesting issue. My exercise was not about
learning languages; it was about better understand English through
the word JOURNAL. One of the side effects is that, by doing so, one
can come across information that can broaden our knowledge of other
languages.
Learning how to speak a new language, whether French, German or
Farsi, is another story. The learning skills involved go way beyond
the scope or Phonetics or Etymology. The way you describe how you
learned to speak Farsi is very productive for learning any language.
It is the way we as babies learn how to speak. Babies do not learn
through phonics or phonetics. Babies learn by pointing to a tree and
saying "TEE". And the more they say it, the more proficient they get.
Even babies who seemed to not talk for a while and then just start
gabbing away do so in their play.
Now, Phonics may work for a while but I have found, by teaching other
languages, that people develop a better understand of the mechanics
by looking under the hood. My post had to do with that aspect of
learning how to write. Phonics seems to be a way of learning
automatically how to read or write a word without knowing the 'how'
and 'why' about it. This may make a child proficient for an
assessment exam but will not necessarily give her the tools necessary
for better expressing herself through her writing.
In my case, because I am dyslexic and because my native language is
Spanish, writing in English was a horrendously painful process that I
did not master until I turned 21. Some of it was fear and some of it
was really the chore of having to spend long hours re-writing my
work. Something clicked and what did it for me was: (1) playing more
with my dictionaries, (2) writing more, (3) reading more, (3) MSWord
spell check. I swear, it is that simple.
You can pick and choose which ever way you want to attack writing
but, any published writer will tell you the same. For that I highly
recommend Stephen King's book On Writing. It is truly a jewel (and
this coming from a woman that is too chicken to read his Scaryness).
The book that changed my life, though, was a book about Gabriel
García Márquez called History of a Deicide (Historia de un Deicidio);
written by another demi-god of Latin American literature, Mario
Vargas Llosa. Unfortunately, I believe the book is out of print.
King's book, though, I highly recommend. I really is inspirational.
Best,
Liza
>It is SO tempting to think that we've got it all figured out <G> -- that[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>we've figured out the best way for people to learn something. Really, we've
>figured out what works really well for us or for one of our kids - and once
>we've done that, it is so HARD to believe that it really is NOT the best way
>for everyone else. THAT is one of the great challenges for all teachers and
>homeschoolers. And one of the ways in which unschoolers have really advanced
>thinking.
>
>--pamS
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/02 3:22:02 PM, liza@... writes:
<< Learning how to speak a new language, whether French, German or
Farsi, is another story. The learning skills involved go way beyond
the scope or Phonetics or Etymology. >>
But different people learn different ways, the same way some babies speak by
single words and some by phrases.
<Well Pam, the post was not about either/or. The post was about how
Phonics, by taking away context, is robbing a lot of people of a
better understanding of the English language.>>
But that's creating an either or. It's possible for people to "learn
phonics" (a set of tricks for six and seven year olds) and still be totally
thrilled with etymology.
One doesn't rob anyone of the other.
Sandra
<< Learning how to speak a new language, whether French, German or
Farsi, is another story. The learning skills involved go way beyond
the scope or Phonetics or Etymology. >>
But different people learn different ways, the same way some babies speak by
single words and some by phrases.
<Well Pam, the post was not about either/or. The post was about how
Phonics, by taking away context, is robbing a lot of people of a
better understanding of the English language.>>
But that's creating an either or. It's possible for people to "learn
phonics" (a set of tricks for six and seven year olds) and still be totally
thrilled with etymology.
One doesn't rob anyone of the other.
Sandra
Liza Sabater
Right. Let me put it this way. There is no order for these learning
skills to develop. Nor is there is a time line for them --outside of
the way Pam describe learning Farsi. I think that most of us forget
it once we enter school and fall prey to process and procedure. But
as far as phonics, phonetics, etc, I do not believe there are
timetables, orders or even specific ways of exploring them. I think,
though, that if a child is having problems with one aspect or reading
or writing, probably it is time to look at these skills from a
different angle; explore other ways of developing those skills.
Especially if it is important to them.
This comes back to a previous thread, some time ago, about 'strewing'
vs. suggestions. I am not talking about sitting down and cracking
books. What I am talking is about looking at different strategies
that might involve some parent intervention. It might mean asking the
kids to try something different and see where it goes from there. It
also might mean for some parents that they might have to go along for
the ride and make this a joint learning experience; such as what has
been suggested with music.
This is not about either/or, I reiterate. My intention was to
present something that a lot of people look at with suspicion (aka,
the dictionary), and show how you can turn it into a game. As I said,
it was a moment of geekatude.
Best,
Liza
skills to develop. Nor is there is a time line for them --outside of
the way Pam describe learning Farsi. I think that most of us forget
it once we enter school and fall prey to process and procedure. But
as far as phonics, phonetics, etc, I do not believe there are
timetables, orders or even specific ways of exploring them. I think,
though, that if a child is having problems with one aspect or reading
or writing, probably it is time to look at these skills from a
different angle; explore other ways of developing those skills.
Especially if it is important to them.
This comes back to a previous thread, some time ago, about 'strewing'
vs. suggestions. I am not talking about sitting down and cracking
books. What I am talking is about looking at different strategies
that might involve some parent intervention. It might mean asking the
kids to try something different and see where it goes from there. It
also might mean for some parents that they might have to go along for
the ride and make this a joint learning experience; such as what has
been suggested with music.
This is not about either/or, I reiterate. My intention was to
present something that a lot of people look at with suspicion (aka,
the dictionary), and show how you can turn it into a game. As I said,
it was a moment of geekatude.
Best,
Liza
>In a message dated 7/29/02 3:22:02 PM, liza@... writes:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
><< Learning how to speak a new language, whether French, German or
>
>Farsi, is another story. The learning skills involved go way beyond
>
>the scope or Phonetics or Etymology. >>
>
>But different people learn different ways, the same way some babies speak by
>single words and some by phrases.
>
><Well Pam, the post was not about either/or. The post was about how
>
>Phonics, by taking away context, is robbing a lot of people of a
>
>better understanding of the English language.>>
>
>But that's creating an either or. It's possible for people to "learn
>phonics" (a set of tricks for six and seven year olds) and still be totally
>thrilled with etymology.
>
>One doesn't rob anyone of the other.
>
>Sandra
Betsy
** The book that changed my life, though, was a book about Gabriel
García Márquez called History of a Deicide**
Hi --
Does "Deicide" mean god-killing? I've never heard the word before.
Betsy
García Márquez called History of a Deicide**
Hi --
Does "Deicide" mean god-killing? I've never heard the word before.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/2002 1:56:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
liza@... writes:
not learning any other way.
Not arguing - just taking one comment out of all the excellent and
interesting stuff you posted - and moving on to essentially a new topic, from
that.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza@... writes:
> Well Pam, the post was not about either/or. The post was about how Phonics,I know - and I agree with you. I was just responding to the one comment about
> by taking away context, is robbing a lot of people of a better
> understanding of the English language.
not learning any other way.
Not arguing - just taking one comment out of all the excellent and
interesting stuff you posted - and moving on to essentially a new topic, from
that.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/2002 5:12:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
liza@... writes:
reading what your wrote!
I was ONLY responding to this one bit:
My point was that we often have trouble imagining ways to learn OTHER than
the way we learned or the way we figured out we learn best. (I wasn't saying
that is your case - just moving from your statement on to something else it
made me think about).
boondoggle drastically a word's original sound?<<
Knowing word origins might be interesting to someone and IF it is, then it
would help them understand why a word sounds like it does. Maybe that would
bore them to tears and what helps them understand word sounds is something
else completely different.
<<
Yes - it is phonetics with no context. Exactly. Out of the context of not
only word origins, but also out of any context of any reason to actually
READ.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza@... writes:
> This comes back to a previous thread, some time ago, about 'strewing'It was a good moment, Liza. Interesting - worthwhile points and I enjoyed
> vs. suggestions. I am not talking about sitting down and cracking
> books. What I am talking is about looking at different strategies
> that might involve some parent intervention. It might mean asking the
> kids to try something different and see where it goes from there. It
> also might mean for some parents that they might have to go along for
> the ride and make this a joint learning experience; such as what has
> been suggested with music.
>
> This is not about either/or, I reiterate. My intention was to
> present something that a lot of people look at with suspicion (aka,
> the dictionary), and show how you can turn it into a game. As I said,
> it was a moment of geekatude.
reading what your wrote!
I was ONLY responding to this one bit:
>>This is how Spanish has always been taught, even inthis country. I cannot imagine learning a language any other way.<<
My point was that we often have trouble imagining ways to learn OTHER than
the way we learned or the way we figured out we learn best. (I wasn't saying
that is your case - just moving from your statement on to something else it
made me think about).
>>How can you learn what a word sounds like without knowing why;especially in a country like the US, where regional accents can
boondoggle drastically a word's original sound?<<
Knowing word origins might be interesting to someone and IF it is, then it
would help them understand why a word sounds like it does. Maybe that would
bore them to tears and what helps them understand word sounds is something
else completely different.
>> If Phonics is indeed Phonetics without a context, I can see why all thecraziness.
<<
Yes - it is phonetics with no context. Exactly. Out of the context of not
only word origins, but also out of any context of any reason to actually
READ.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liza Sabater
Technically, yes. I'm almost positive that Vargas Llosa coined it.
The book though is about Garcia Marquez's rise as one of the leaders
of the Latin American Literary Boom. The book is about his books and
the process of his writing; how his work is about creating a
universe and in essence, about how novelists just want to be little
gods. What I remember most about the book was how he described his
rituals for writing --in that, he has a kindred heart in Stephen
King. They both write, no matter what, for 7 hours every day! On the
other hand, Julio Cortazar would write in spurts (The movie Blow Up
is based on a screenplay he wrote based on one of his short stories.
Also, does anybody remember the video for REMs "Everybody Hurts'? It
is based on one of Cortazar's short stories)
Anyhow, Stephen King's book is really an amazing read. It is almost
written by two different King's --each one a before and after his
accident (the one that nearly killed him in Maine). He even describes
what happened to him in vivid detail. It is amazing just to see how
everything comes into perspective once you get to that part. It is
really moving.
Liza
The book though is about Garcia Marquez's rise as one of the leaders
of the Latin American Literary Boom. The book is about his books and
the process of his writing; how his work is about creating a
universe and in essence, about how novelists just want to be little
gods. What I remember most about the book was how he described his
rituals for writing --in that, he has a kindred heart in Stephen
King. They both write, no matter what, for 7 hours every day! On the
other hand, Julio Cortazar would write in spurts (The movie Blow Up
is based on a screenplay he wrote based on one of his short stories.
Also, does anybody remember the video for REMs "Everybody Hurts'? It
is based on one of Cortazar's short stories)
Anyhow, Stephen King's book is really an amazing read. It is almost
written by two different King's --each one a before and after his
accident (the one that nearly killed him in Maine). He even describes
what happened to him in vivid detail. It is amazing just to see how
everything comes into perspective once you get to that part. It is
really moving.
Liza
>** The book that changed my life, though, was a book about Gabriel[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>García Márquez called History of a Deicide**
>
>Hi --
>
>Does "Deicide" mean god-killing? I've never heard the word before.
>
>Betsy
>
jessi koons
I haven't introduced myself yet, but i'll go ahead and throw in some anecdotal evidence, since this posting made me think of it. My younger sister made very mediocre grades in high school spanish, yet she did just fine at teaching herself spanish so that she could understand some of her friends. This is the sort of thing that makes me interested in unschooling: why bother with forced classes when people are going to learn what they need on their own timetables anyway, sometimes (frequently) despite school?
--Jessi
PSoroosh@... wrote:In a message dated 7/29/2002 7:40:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
liza@... writes:
I can just imagine someone trying to get their kid interested in
word origins, when the kid just wants to speak Spanish so they can understand
some other kids who speak Spanish among themselves.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--Jessi
PSoroosh@... wrote:In a message dated 7/29/2002 7:40:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
liza@... writes:
I can just imagine someone trying to get their kid interested in
word origins, when the kid just wants to speak Spanish so they can understand
some other kids who speak Spanish among themselves.
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If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/02 10:41:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
PSoroosh@... writes:
friends, and she told me that the high schools in our area have dropped
teaching the Spanish letter RR because it is just too much. No other
explanation. That is how I cannot imagine learning a language!}
Most of the languages I learned as a child, I learned by total immersion. We
lived in so many different places, learning the local language quickly was a
necessity. I have since forgotten most, because I haven't heard them spoken
since, but sometimes I do hear someone speaking in a language and I can pick
up most of what they are saying. Pam says she learned Farsi because she
wanted to know her husbands language. I learned Farsi so I could talk to my
friends, or go shopping with my mother. Since we left Iran years ago, I have
rarely heard Farsi spoken and I assumed I had all but forgotten how to speak
or read it. I went to visit my family in Oklahoma recently and my Mom and I
found a box of some of my old things in it. One of the things found was a
necklace and Moly immediately put it on. The necklace has my name in Farsi,
and I took one look at it and told Moly she had it on backwards. My Mom
laughed and asked how I could tell, but my Dad said I was right, it was
backwards. Funny thing is, I can't speak it any more, but can still read it
enough to get by, my Mom can't read it anymore but can still speak it (sort
of) and my dad can still speak and read Farsi. We all learned by immersion,
no phonics, sight words or whole language.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PSoroosh@... writes:
> >>This is how Spanish has always been taught, even in{Speaking of Spanish, I was talking to the daughter of one of my Mothers
> this country. I cannot imagine learning a language any other way.<<
>
> My point was that we often have trouble imagining ways to learn OTHER than
> the way we learned or the way we figured out we learn best. (I wasn't
> saying
> that is your case - just moving from your statement on to something else it
> made me think about).
>
friends, and she told me that the high schools in our area have dropped
teaching the Spanish letter RR because it is just too much. No other
explanation. That is how I cannot imagine learning a language!}
Most of the languages I learned as a child, I learned by total immersion. We
lived in so many different places, learning the local language quickly was a
necessity. I have since forgotten most, because I haven't heard them spoken
since, but sometimes I do hear someone speaking in a language and I can pick
up most of what they are saying. Pam says she learned Farsi because she
wanted to know her husbands language. I learned Farsi so I could talk to my
friends, or go shopping with my mother. Since we left Iran years ago, I have
rarely heard Farsi spoken and I assumed I had all but forgotten how to speak
or read it. I went to visit my family in Oklahoma recently and my Mom and I
found a box of some of my old things in it. One of the things found was a
necklace and Moly immediately put it on. The necklace has my name in Farsi,
and I took one look at it and told Moly she had it on backwards. My Mom
laughed and asked how I could tell, but my Dad said I was right, it was
backwards. Funny thing is, I can't speak it any more, but can still read it
enough to get by, my Mom can't read it anymore but can still speak it (sort
of) and my dad can still speak and read Farsi. We all learned by immersion,
no phonics, sight words or whole language.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:53:53 EDT Dnowens@... writes:
thought of it that way before, but it works for me. When done right, it's
simply being immersed in a world of words and stories and letters in a
supportive, safe environment.
Dar
>. We all learned byI think whole language is learning to read through immersion. I never
> immersion,
> no phonics, sight words or whole language.
thought of it that way before, but it works for me. When done right, it's
simply being immersed in a world of words and stories and letters in a
supportive, safe environment.
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/30/02 2:09:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
freeform@... writes:
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freeform@... writes:
> On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:53:53 EDT Dnowens@... writes:LOL Dar! I guess you are right! I never thought of it that way.
> >. We all learned by
> > immersion,
> > no phonics, sight words or whole language.
>
> I think whole language is learning to read through immersion. I never
> thought of it that way before, but it works for me. When done right, it's
> simply being immersed in a world of words and stories and letters in a
> supportive, safe environment.
>
> Dar
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]