[email protected]

Thank you, Ned....._that_ was very helpful, not to mention inspiring :)

I've recently joined this list to learn more about unschooling. My dh
and I have a three year old little girl and I've come to understand that
'unschooling' is what we've been doing ever since she was born!

Now that she's getting older, and I'm getting more involved w/our local
homeschoolers and field trips, etc., I just need to build up my own
confidence that 'I' can deschool MYSELF. It's hard, you know? My
idealist side knows this is exactly how we want our Emma to
learn....with us acting more as facilitators, definitely not as her
teachers.

But there's that old 'schooled' side of me who worries that if we do,
will Em learn all the things she might 'need' to know, say, to enter
college. I think, "What about memorizing her multiplication tables?".
I never did learn half of mine and still find myself counting sometimes
on my fingers (and that really embarrasses and aggravates me and only
makes me wish I'd been 'taught' better....even though I always hated
math).

Then adding to my worries... I heard several unschoolers at my local
homeschoolers group say that in hindsight they wished they had 'taught'
their children the '3 R's'....They suggested unschooling for 'most of
the child's time', but also doing 'some' teaching that you come up with
(making it fun but still 'you're' the one instigating it). What are
your feelings on this, and what has been your experience?

Do you think it is detrimental, for instance, that a child totally
uninterested in math not learn any math? And is it necessary for a
child uninterested in certain subjects to learn about those subjects
anyway? If not, how would this affect them if they chose to go to
college later? In other words, IS there a certain 'core' knowledge that
they 'need' to know and understand??

I'm sure my questions may sound terribly naive to most of you
veterans...but please, be kind :) I admit I know very little about all
this...really, only that I love my daughter more than life itself, and
want with all my heart for her to love learning and have a wonderful
childhood and life! You guys are the experts, and that's why I'm
here....to learn from you :)

Oh....I have just today checked out John Holt's 'How Children Learn'
from our local library. Any other recommendations? I saw a book on
amazon called something like 'homeschooling our children, deschooling
ourselves'....or something like that. Anyone read this one?

Hugs,
Denise

Cheryl

>I think, "What about memorizing her multiplication tables?".
> I never did learn half of mine and still find myself counting sometimes
> on my fingers (and that really embarrasses and aggravates me and only
> makes me wish I'd been 'taught' better....even though I always hated
> math).

What is stopping you from working on memorizing them now? Sure it will take
some effort but no more than when you were 10yo and probably less because
now you know how useful they are. On the other hand, has not having your
tables memorized stopped you from accomplishing anything you really wanted
to do? If not, then how vital is it really to memorize your tables? Sure
it is convenient but thousands of people are functioning quite well without
having them memorized and thousands more can only do their tables by rote.
Our daughter wanted to learn her tables because I repeatedly demonstarted to
her how much quicker I could work things out than if I had to use only
adding. Any time I have wanted her to learn something that I knew she would
have trouble appreciating the value of I made a big deal, for a few days, of
how I used a particular bit of knowledge and she would want to copy what I
was doing. This opened up the opportunity to share knowledge. The instinct
to copy is one of the best kept parenting/homeschooling secrets. Yes, it
is manipulative but then isn't all parenting about manipulating our children
to be acceptable to us and hopefully the wider community? Anyway, shouldn't
we be modelling behaviours, attitudes, etc. we want our children to emulate?

> homeschoolers group say that in hindsight they wished they had 'taught'
> their children the '3 R's'....They suggested unschooling for 'most of
> the child's time', but also doing 'some' teaching that you come up with
> (making it fun but still 'you're' the one instigating it). What are
> your feelings on this, and what has been your experience?

I don't have a problem with instigating a learning experience. Don't we all
do this when we go on field trips? Unless a child is deliberately exposed to
some sorts knowledge they may never know it exists. It depends on how
important I believe it is that a child gain a certain type of knowledge. If
I consider it vital I will insist the child learn it while being mindful of
maturity and readiness to learn. If I think it is really useful for the
child to know about something I would try to ignite interest in a variety of
ways. However, I would hesitate to push the child to learn where there is
no interest when the subject is broached and back off rapidly if there is
resistance. I then try and work out why there is resistance/lack of
interest and find a way around it.
>
> Do you think it is detrimental, for instance, that a child totally
> uninterested in math not learn any math?
It would be extremely difficult for anyone to function effectively in our
society with no mathematical knowledge. In the adult world we rarely need
more than basic calculating skills. Just about everything we need to know
mathematically can be learned from real world activities such as price
comparisons when grocery shopping, working out what time to leave home to
get to an appointment on the other side of town. I have always encouraged
children to try to figure out the answer to their own questions or if I
provide the answer I talk them through how I worked it out. This does not
have to come across as teaching it is more about sharing information.

>And is it necessary for a child uninterested in certain subjects to learn
about those subjects
> anyway? If not, how would this affect them if they chose to go to college
later? In other words, >IS there a certain 'core' knowledge that they
'need' to know and understand??


The only time I can think off that a child should learn "subjects" that have
no interest for them is if it is part of achieving a bigger goal. With this
in mind, a child who wants to go to college would be sensible to approach
prospective colleges a year or two in advance of applying for entry to find
out what each requires to be considered for eligibilty. That allows plenty
of time to ensure any gaps are filled so the child can demonstrate their
knowledge. If college entry is the goal the motivation to study the
required subjects, no matter how "boring", should be high.

As for "core knowledge" I think things such as inter-personal skills and
general life skills are probably more important than the academic ones as
intellectual learning can occur at any age where emotional learning is much
harder to change once past childhood.

> I'm sure my questions may sound terribly naive to most of you
> veterans...but please, be kind :) I admit I know very little about all
> this...really, only that I love my daughter more than life itself, and
> want with all my heart for her to love learning and have a wonderful
> childhood and life! You guys are the experts, and that's why I'm
> here....to learn from you :)

I'm not so sure about being an expert. Like you, I know and cherish my
daughter and want the best for her. If you see your daughter's education as
an adventure you are both taking part in rather than something you do to her
it is unlikely you will go far wrong.

> Oh....I have just today checked out John Holt's 'How Children Learn'
> from our local library. Any other recommendations?

A great confidence building book for new homeschoolers is "Educating Your
Children at Home" by Alan Thomas published by Cassel ISBN 0-304-70179-3
(hardback) 0-304-70180-7 (paperback). The author conducted a systematic
enquiry into how a hundred families educate their children at home. His
purpose was to examine whether individualized learning works as well in
practice as predicted in theory. Homeschooling families were the only place
where this type of learning is the norm rather than contrived as in
experiments in schools. He ultimately questions a number of assumptions
about learning that traditional schooling is based on.


Hugs,
Cheryl

[email protected]

**I saw a book on amazon called something like 'homeschooling our children,
deschooling ourselves'....or something like that. Anyone read this one?**

Homeschooling Our Children, Unschooling Ourselves - by Allison McKee

I haven't finished this book yet (just came this week) but I HIGHLY recommend
it to new unschoolers and anyone else who likes to read about the experiences
of real families.

The best part of the book so far is that the author details how every time
she panicked and introduced required learning, she interfered with the real
learning going on in her children's lives.

Deborah in IL

[email protected]

Nobody can.

<If
I consider it vital I will insist the child learn it while being mindful of
maturity and readiness to learn. >>


You can't make a child learn something. You can "insist" that they look at a
page or write something or recite something, but none of that can be
insistance on learning.
If insistance helped, school would have no failures whatsoever.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/02 6:16:40 AM, massage@... writes:

<< It would be extremely difficult for anyone to function effectively in our
society with no mathematical knowledge. In the adult world we rarely need
more than basic calculating skills. >>

As far as I can tell, it's impossible to live in the world without picking up
a lot of math with no effort whatsoever. My kids have learned all kinds of
stuff with percentages and ratios and rates (algebra having to do different
amounts of weekly allowance) and they can do it in their heads.

<<The only time I can think off that a child should learn "subjects" that have
no interest for them is if it is part of achieving a bigger goal. With this
in mind, a child who wants to go to college would be sensible to approach
prospective colleges a year or two in advance of applying for entry to find
out what each requires to be considered for eligibilty.>>

Right. And by then they're 14 or 15 years old and not in such danger of
having their joy squished by "requirements"!!

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/2002 2:02:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dacunefare@... writes:


>
> **I saw a book on amazon called something like 'homeschooling our children,
>
> deschooling ourselves'....or something like that. Anyone read this one?**
>
> Homeschooling Our Children, Unschooling Ourselves - by Allison McKee
>

Yes, read it last month. I thought it was a great book!
Amy Kagey
Free shipping on books thru July!
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366"> </A>U<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">sborne Books Online Catalog</A>
Join Usborne for only $24.95!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa M. C. Bentley

> Do you think it is detrimental, for instance, that a child totally
> uninterested in math not learn any math?

There ARE basic things that a person NEEDS to know in order to live well
in various different societies. In the US, for example, I haven't met
anyone who can live on their own well (unless financially independent or
something) without knowing how to do laundry and balance a checkbook. I
view it my responsibility to help my children know these certain things
by the time they are living on their own. To do this, I sometimes ask
for help with laundry, etc. Also, we do the checkbook in front of the
kids- how can a kid see this without asking what in the world you are
doing? My kids are constantly asking questions about this stuff.

-Lisa

Lisa M. C. Bentley

> >In the US, for example, I haven't met
> >anyone who can live on their own well (unless financially independent or
> >something) without knowing how to do laundry and balance a checkbook.
> >
>
> I know lots of people who don't have checking acounts and don't use banks.
>

I knew there would be a counter example! :) However, the individuals
without checking accounts still need to be able to know when their funds
are low- whether their funds are dollars or goats! If you only have two
goats left, you can't buy/trade/whatever for something that requires
goats. :)

-Lisa

KT

>
>
>In the US, for example, I haven't met
>anyone who can live on their own well (unless financially independent or
>something) without knowing how to do laundry and balance a checkbook.
>

I know lots of people who don't have checking acounts and don't use banks.

Tuck

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/2002 4:29:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cottrellbentley@... writes:


> Also, we do the checkbook in front of the
> kids- how can a kid see this without asking what in the world you are
> doing

We use banks, but checkbooks are mostly a thing of the past for us. I have
one, but I've lost it for months at a time and not noticed <G>.

My kids have their own accounts with ATM cards. Roya works a lot and makes
good money and it gets direct-deposited into her account- she is 17. Roxana
is 14 and gets $14 per month from us and also makes some extra by creating
flyers and announcements and website stuff for friends and family once in a
while. Rosie is 11 and gets $11 per month from us and somehow manages to earn
other money doing odd jobs for people. They always have a bit of money saved
up - occasionally get $20 for a gift from a relative, for example. They don't
seem to have any trouble saving it or spending it on what they want.

Oh - and they know ALL about compound interest -- they learned that because
the points earned playing NeoPets games online are compounded.

--pam

National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/02 6:50:05 PM, PSoroosh@... writes:

<< My kids have their own accounts with ATM cards. Roya works a lot and makes
good money and it gets direct-deposited into her account- she is 17. >>

Our credit union wouldn't let Kirby have an ATM card last year. They said he
had to be 18. We could get him a credit card, they said, but no ATM. That
was stupid. I hope they've changed the policy by now. We should check.

He and I just went through and updated his "savings," which is his failure to
collect his allowance while he's working. It's up above $200. He's going to
an anime convention in Denver September 20 and will need more than the $280
or so he will have, because he's going in on a car rental and hotel room.

Sandra

KT

The bank wouldn't give my son a debit card, either. In person. (They
gave him an ATM only card.) So a little while after he opened the
account, we called in his card as lost, and asked them to upgrade to a
debit card. No problemo.

Tuck

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>In a message dated 7/25/02 6:50:05 PM, PSoroosh@... writes:
>
><< My kids have their own accounts with ATM cards. Roya works a lot and makes
>good money and it gets direct-deposited into her account- she is 17. >>
>
>Our credit union wouldn't let Kirby have an ATM card last year. They said he
>had to be 18. We could get him a credit card, they said, but no ATM. That
>was stupid. I hope they've changed the policy by now. We should check.
>
>He and I just went through and updated his "savings," which is his failure to
>collect his allowance while he's working. It's up above $200. He's going to
>an anime convention in Denver September 20 and will need more than the $280
>or so he will have, because he's going in on a car rental and hotel room.
>
>Sandra
>
>
>If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Tia Leschke

>The bank wouldn't give my son a debit card, either. In person. (They
>gave him an ATM only card.) So a little while after he opened the
>account, we called in his card as lost, and asked them to upgrade to a
>debit card. No problemo.

I think we've had debit cards longer here in Canada than you guys. When
they first came out, around 10 years ago, they didn't want to give my
daughter one. She was maybe16 then. I think Lars was 12 when he got his,
so they changed it somewhere along the way.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Betsy

**In the US, for example, I haven't met
anyone who can live on their own well (unless financially independent
or
something) without knowing how to do laundry and balance a checkbook.
I
view it my responsibility to help my children know these certain
things
by the time they are living on their own. **

One of my favorite historical tidbits is that when Thoreau was being all
philosophical about living by himself in the woods, he was taking his
laundry home for his mother to wash.

I can't remember my source, so those who find it doubtful can put
"Thoreau" and "laundry" and maybe "Walden" into a Google and see what
pops out.

Betsy

Gina Loree Marks

> There ARE basic things that a person NEEDS to know
> in order to live well
> in various different societies. I
> view it my responsibility to help my children know
> these certain things
> by the time they are living on their own. To do
> this, I sometimes ask
> for help with laundry, etc. Also, we do the
> checkbook in front of the
> kids- how can a kid see this without asking what in
> the world you are
> doing?

I totally agree.

I often will refer to a book I read 13 yrs.ago, "The
Continnum COncept" by Jean Liedloff. Jean studied the
Yequana indians in the Amazon jungle, and saw how they
raised their children. They were never "coerced" to do
anything, but trusted that their innate natures would
guide them into participation into the workings of the
tribe.

This is how I view unschooling. The "work" of the
tribe is very visible to the youger members, and they
naturally imitate. (Remember how our toddlers would
pick up a broom and try to help?)

I can go on about that forever, but I'll just say
here, in my own experience, I would often find myself
putting pressure on the boys to "do" school
stuff...and it occured to me last year that I think
was envious of their opportunity to pursue whatever
their interests were. SO, (duh) why don't I pursue my
own interests, and lay off them? I started some
projects of own, making sure I was very conspicuous
about it! LOL!

Jean Liedloff explains that it is far more natural and
interesting to a child to be in the presence of an
adult who is involved in his/her own activites, and
welcomed to join in if desired, than to be the center
of attention and focused upon exclusively. So, I'll
spread my stuff all over the table, or exclaim loudly
when I've discovered something cool..and sometimes
they'll be curious about what I'm doing, and ask to
help. (Or not..but it's okay). It's especially hard
for little ones to resist joining in, if mom's doing
something "fun"!

Peace, Gina


=====
"As for me, I know of nothing else but miracles."-- Walt Whitman

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/26/02 9:57:14 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< One of my favorite historical tidbits is that when Thoreau was being all
philosophical about living by himself in the woods, he was taking his
laundry home for his mother to wash. >>

GOOD ONE!

My boys are going to a big SCA campout this weekend. My husband and I are
not. Holly is not.

This is a big difference.

Marty just left with two other teenagers. I filled out paperwork to give
somene else legal guardianship of Marty for the weekend as the rules
required. We helped them pack and checklist, and now they're gone.


Kirby's leaving at 7:00 or so with the knight to whom he's squired. So
they'll both be at the same place, but not together, and neither with parents.


I WILL be doing laundry. <g>

Sandra

chris caravalho

Dear Sandra,

Do you mind asking Kirby for me what are some basic
things I should know about anime other than it being a
Japanese cartoon. My six year old daughter is
suddenly interested in Sailor Moon so I wanted to give
some background information but I don't know where to
start. There were hundreds of Sailor Moon websites,
too much for me to go through one by one. Could you
ask him what the appeal is? Why the big eyes on the
character ;)? How does it compare to "American"
cartoons? Anything would be appreciated ... perhaps
he knows a good website? Mahalo! Dawn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

[email protected]

Kirby's gone for the weekend, but I'll forward your request to Pam
Sorooshian's family. Her girls know Sailor Moon better than Kirby does.

[Pam, could you get one of your girls to at least recommend resources?
Thanks.]

Fetteroll

on 7/26/02 6:11 PM, chris caravalho at chrisdawnc@... wrote:

> My six year old daughter is
> suddenly interested in Sailor Moon so I wanted to give
> some background information but I don't know where to
> start.

The Right Stuf - Introduction to Anime
http://www.rightstuf.com/introduction/

> Could you
> ask him what the appeal is?

Whereas with the cartoons we watched as kids the first episode wasn't much
different than an episode 3 season later in terms of character or setting
(if it was, it generally indicated the cartoon wasn't doing so well and they
were trying to fix it and make it better ;-) the anime stories tend to be
multilayered. The division between good and bad can be less distinct than in
western cartoons (and western movies for that matter.) Anime stories tend to
be on going with the characters changing and developing over the course of
the series so it gives more of a feeling of tension that anything could
happen. And that you'll miss something if you don't keep watching. ;-) (In
fact sometimes they'll start all over again with a different story line like
they did in Tenchi.) Basically they treat the viewer as intelligent. For
some reason kids like that! :-)

Anime developed out of -- and are still often translations of -- Japanese
comics (manga) which is a *huge* industry in Japan. And *not* just for kids.

Neither is anime just for kids. Some (perhaps a lot since the market for it
in the US tends to be teen and 20's males) is very definitely not for kids.
In Japan there isn't the western prejudice against sci-fi and animation and
they can use both to tell a story without the fear that they're limiting
their audience.

> Why the big eyes on the
> character ;)?

They are windows to the soul :-) The most innocent characters have the
biggest eyes with the most light spots. Westerners tend to think they are
western eyes, but westerners don't have baseball sized eyes any more than
the Japanese do. ;-) The eyes just indicate something about the character.
Sort of like black hair in western movies indicating a bad person and blond
hair a good person. The eyes are just more so. It's probably a holdover from
the comic books where they can often tell a lot of the story without words.

The hair, too, is a holdover from manga with imaginative hairstyles and
unnatural colors. It helps people identify characters quickly. The covers
are colored but the inside pages of most books are black and white so having
distinctive hair was a big help in keeping the characters straight.

> How does it compare to "American"
> cartoons?

If she hasn't seen My Neighbor Totoro or Kiki's Delivery Service, go out and
rent them right now. They're a full course meal and make Disney look like
Fizzies. (Of course Miyazaki is the best of the best and his lastest
picture (Spirited Away I think is the English title) is the highest grossing
film of all time in Japan.)

Joyce

[email protected]

wow.. thanks for all the anime information.. i was wondering those things myself.. and now i think I will go out and rent those videos myself..

my son used to be a big pokemon fan and that was my intro to japanese cartoons.. and the characteristics you describe even fits those cartoons.. (of course power rangers were my FIRST japanese import .. verry strange shows indeed)..

Linda LL
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Anime


on 7/26/02 6:11 PM, chris caravalho at chrisdawnc@... wrote:

> My six year old daughter is
> suddenly interested in Sailor Moon so I wanted to give
> some background information but I don't know where to
> start.

The Right Stuf - Introduction to Anime
http://www.rightstuf.com/introduction/

> Could you
> ask him what the appeal is?

Whereas with the cartoons we watched as kids the first episode wasn't much
different than an episode 3 season later in terms of character or setting
(if it was, it generally indicated the cartoon wasn't doing so well and they
were trying to fix it and make it better ;-) the anime stories tend to be
multilayered. The division between good and bad can be less distinct than in
western cartoons (and western movies for that matter.) Anime stories tend to
be on going with the characters changing and developing over the course of
the series so it gives more of a feeling of tension that anything could
happen. And that you'll miss something if you don't keep watching. ;-) (In
fact sometimes they'll start all over again with a different story line like
they did in Tenchi.) Basically they treat the viewer as intelligent. For
some reason kids like that! :-)

Anime developed out of -- and are still often translations of -- Japanese
comics (manga) which is a *huge* industry in Japan. And *not* just for kids.

Neither is anime just for kids. Some (perhaps a lot since the market for it
in the US tends to be teen and 20's males) is very definitely not for kids.
In Japan there isn't the western prejudice against sci-fi and animation and
they can use both to tell a story without the fear that they're limiting
their audience.

> Why the big eyes on the
> character ;)?

They are windows to the soul :-) The most innocent characters have the
biggest eyes with the most light spots. Westerners tend to think they are
western eyes, but westerners don't have baseball sized eyes any more than
the Japanese do. ;-) The eyes just indicate something about the character.
Sort of like black hair in western movies indicating a bad person and blond
hair a good person. The eyes are just more so. It's probably a holdover from
the comic books where they can often tell a lot of the story without words.

The hair, too, is a holdover from manga with imaginative hairstyles and
unnatural colors. It helps people identify characters quickly. The covers
are colored but the inside pages of most books are black and white so having
distinctive hair was a big help in keeping the characters straight.

> How does it compare to "American"
> cartoons?

If she hasn't seen My Neighbor Totoro or Kiki's Delivery Service, go out and
rent them right now. They're a full course meal and make Disney look like
Fizzies. (Of course Miyazaki is the best of the best and his lastest
picture (Spirited Away I think is the English title) is the highest grossing
film of all time in Japan.)

Joyce


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Click here to find your contact lenses!

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris caravalho

Dear Joyce,

Thank you for all the information!!! Soon as my
husband is off from work we will definately borrow
Kiki's Delivery Service! I will discuss these things
with my daughter and perhaps get hooked myself!
Mahalo! Dawn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com