Teaching, learning, looking for advice... (LONG)
debi watson
>> For all the attachmentparenting, family bed, prolonged nursing, freedom from institutionalized
education, I practiced, I didn't seem to be able to grasp that bigger
picture. I still had hang-ups. I wanted to use punishment effectively, I
wanted everyone to do their chores with smiles on their faces, I expected
many things to be the way I wanted them to be.
Oh, Nancy -- this is something I'm really trying to grip myself! Granted, we have only been unschooling for a very short while, but the more we do, the more dh relaxes, and the better things flow (I'm the one whose dh really wanted a school-at-home atmosphere). But I'm still running into all kinds of unexpected snags, even though I am a staunch supporter of all the things you've mentioned above. I am continually berating myself for not unschooling properly!
>>Coming here has given me apeek at the bigger picture. You can't just unschool when it comes to
*schoolish* things. You can't turn unschooling off at the end of the
afternoon and expect things to be hunky-dory. You can't respect your
children's choices in learning but not respect their choices in life.
This is kind of the stage I'm at. I have a bizarre little story to insert here -- the other day, after church, my ds's Sunday School teacher stopped me to tell me he was concerned about my son. Ds is nine, and in a class of all girls. They tend to be very giggly and off-topic, and my son gets annoyed with them. The teacher said, "Now, don't get me wrong -- he is very polite and respectful and gets along well with adults, but he seems to think he is 16 or something, instead of 9. He acts like he thinks the other kids are childish. He is certainly a bright, sharp kid -- while I am struggling to explain to the others what an analogy is in the scriptures, he is able to not only understand, but apply and construe his own examples. But he has no patience with them when they start getting off topic and fooling around. He will actually get up and walk away if they won't settle down. He doesn't know how to be a kid. That's what I see the problem is with homeschooling. Thoses kids don't know how to act around other kids. You've done fine with the academics, but he isn't very socialized. In my professional opinion (he is a ninth grade teacher during the week), you need to get him involved with other kids a lot more, and you should think about putting him in school as soon as possible. He needs to learn how to be part of a group; a team player." I tried to explain that he is a Cub and a member of Junior Forest Wardens; that he went to swimming lessons and frequent field trips with a bunch of homeschool kids, and that we went and had a play day usually once a week at various friends houses, but he waved that aside. I tried again. "He just doesn't like groups very much. He is much happier one on one, and he also tends to be a leader. As first born, he is used to being in charge a lot, and while I know he can get downright bossy, we have been trying to work on learning to compromise. Maybe he is one of those kids who just prefers things to be the way he wants, and he'd rather have a few close friends with similar goals and direction, than a throng of acquaintances. Kind of like Bill Gates, or something." "Or, like the Unabomber. He has to learn to be part of a team -- just one of the players. He needs to be put in positions where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not what HE personally wants. He needs to learn to be one of the subordinates -- it is a situation he will be encountering all his life, and he needs to learn to deal with it now." After a few more fruitless exchanges, I went away, totally dejected. On the one hand, he was criticizing my son for knowing how to behave in church -- staying on topic, knowing his material, and wanting the others to be respectful to the teacher. This is just how ds is -- he is a really focussed kid. But I have certainly learned that *I* cannot choose that focus -- the minute I try to impose my goals on him, he shuts down. SO he has obviously *chosen* to behave in what most people would consider an ideal manner in a public, teaching oriented forum. (Notice I did not say "learning"? *I* am learning! :o) )
However, the teacher is then using that as proof that my son is doomed to a reclusive life, as he is not a group kind of kid. So my question is this: do I need to be concerned? Was this just some big deal that I was totally oblivious to, or does he really need to get a handle on dealing with groups? And how does this reconcile with unschooling? Obviously I cannot *force* him to be part of a crowd, but is this something he really needs to be encouraged in? He sometimes gets sad because he has so few friends, but most of the time he is too busy with his own projects and stuff that he doesn't really seem to care. And he does tend to think that kids his age are immature, although he is very patient and kind with his younger sisters. Of course, most older kids we've come across don't look too favorably on a bossy younger boy trying to include himself in their doings, either. What is the balance here?!
>>I don't want visions of unschoolers at conventionswith pamphlets and smiling faces saying "can I take some time to show you how to unschool the right way?"
Why not?! I'd take one! :o) Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**This is kind of the stage I'm at. I have a bizarre
little story to insert here -- the other day, after church, my ds's
Sunday School teacher stopped me to tell me he was concerned about my
son. Ds is nine, and in a class of all girls. They tend to be very
giggly and off-topic, and my son gets annoyed with them. The teacher
said, "Now, don't get me wrong -- he is
very polite and respectful and gets along well with adults, but he seems
to think he is 16 or something, instead of 9. He acts like he thinks
the other kids are childish.**
The teacher obviously has a strong pro-school bias that is going to
influence what he says. Instead of trying to understand the situation
through his reporting it might be better to sit in on the Sunday school
class and watch how your son is behaving.
I think it's perfectly fine for a child to be well behaved. Also, I'm
surprised that the teacher is surprised that your son is interested in
the lessons. (Does the teacher actually think they are worthless and
unappealing? That he has nothing of spiritual value to offer to
children -- how depressing!) However, IF your son is going so far as to
chide the other children about their immature behavior, that sounds like
it could cause ongoing social interaction problems. If I were the
parent, I think I would want to watch the class to see the specific
behaviors of the whole group of children.
(I also think that it's possible that the situation would play out
differently if their was another boy in the class that your son could
relate to.)
I certainly don't think that sending shy or independent children to
school improves them in any way.
My 2 cents,
Betsy
little story to insert here -- the other day, after church, my ds's
Sunday School teacher stopped me to tell me he was concerned about my
son. Ds is nine, and in a class of all girls. They tend to be very
giggly and off-topic, and my son gets annoyed with them. The teacher
said, "Now, don't get me wrong -- he is
very polite and respectful and gets along well with adults, but he seems
to think he is 16 or something, instead of 9. He acts like he thinks
the other kids are childish.**
The teacher obviously has a strong pro-school bias that is going to
influence what he says. Instead of trying to understand the situation
through his reporting it might be better to sit in on the Sunday school
class and watch how your son is behaving.
I think it's perfectly fine for a child to be well behaved. Also, I'm
surprised that the teacher is surprised that your son is interested in
the lessons. (Does the teacher actually think they are worthless and
unappealing? That he has nothing of spiritual value to offer to
children -- how depressing!) However, IF your son is going so far as to
chide the other children about their immature behavior, that sounds like
it could cause ongoing social interaction problems. If I were the
parent, I think I would want to watch the class to see the specific
behaviors of the whole group of children.
(I also think that it's possible that the situation would play out
differently if their was another boy in the class that your son could
relate to.)
I certainly don't think that sending shy or independent children to
school improves them in any way.
My 2 cents,
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/6/02 2:14:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
debiwatson@... writes:
I take it the Sunday school teacher is the one who said "Or like the
unabomber.."
I would have said to him, Why does my child have to be put into situations
where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not something he
wants? You praise my child for listening quietly, following directions,
knowing his lesson, yet when he doesn't act like the others in class, being
disruptive, talking out of turn, not paying attention and not knowing the
lesson, you say he needs to know how to do this so he will be socialized.
WHY???
This man says your son isn't very socialized, yet I think your child
obviously is very socialized. He just may not be a social person. (nothing
wrong with that) There is a difference between knowing how to act socially,
and being a social person, too many people get the two confused. He knows how
to behave in situations like church, he knows how to behave in situations
like cub scouts. Why the push for the group mentality thing? It goes back to
that old adage, if everyone were jumping off the bridge would you do it too?
It seems he is saying *I want your kid to know the lesson, but I also want
your kid to run around and cause problems because the rest are doing it.* He
wants your child to know why jumping off the bridge is wrong, but he still
wants him to do it. @@
I know he doesn't want his 9th grade classes to be disruptive. I am sure he
doesn't say to parents, *Jane is a great student, she behaves in class, does
her homework, passes her tests, and I think she is a terrific kid. The only
problem is Jane doesn't pass notes to her friends like all the others do. You
need to get Jane involved in the cheerleading squad, so she will act more
like all the other girls in her class.*
I nominate this dullard for the dufus of the year award! What an @$$!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debiwatson@... writes:
> That's what I see the problem is with homeschooling. Thoses kids don't know~SNORK~ @@
> how to act around other kids. You've done fine with the academics, but he
> isn't very socialized. In my professional opinion (he is a ninth grade
> teacher during the week), you need to get him involved with other kids a
> lot more, and you should think about putting him in school as soon as
> possible. He needs to learn how to be part of a group; a team player." I
> tried to explain that he is a Cub and a member of Junior Forest Wardens;
> that he went to swimming lessons and frequent field trips with a bunch of
> homeschool kids, and that we went and had a play day usually once a week at
> various friends houses, but he waved that aside. I tried again. "He just
> doesn't like groups very much. He is much happier one on one, and he also
> tends to be a leader. As first born, he is used to being in charge a lot,
> and while I know he can get downright bossy, we have been trying to work on
> learning to compromise. Maybe he is one of those kids who just prefers
> things to be the way he wants, and he'd rather have a few close friends
> with similar goals and direction, than a throng of acquaintances. Kind of
> like Bill Gates, or something." "Or, like the Unabomber. He has to learn
> to be part of a team -- just one of the players. He needs to be put in
> positions where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not what
> HE personally wants. He needs to learn to be one of the subordinates -- it
> is a situation he will be encountering all his life, and he needs to learn
> to deal with it now." After a few more fruitless exchanges, I went away,
> totally dejected.
I take it the Sunday school teacher is the one who said "Or like the
unabomber.."
I would have said to him, Why does my child have to be put into situations
where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not something he
wants? You praise my child for listening quietly, following directions,
knowing his lesson, yet when he doesn't act like the others in class, being
disruptive, talking out of turn, not paying attention and not knowing the
lesson, you say he needs to know how to do this so he will be socialized.
WHY???
This man says your son isn't very socialized, yet I think your child
obviously is very socialized. He just may not be a social person. (nothing
wrong with that) There is a difference between knowing how to act socially,
and being a social person, too many people get the two confused. He knows how
to behave in situations like church, he knows how to behave in situations
like cub scouts. Why the push for the group mentality thing? It goes back to
that old adage, if everyone were jumping off the bridge would you do it too?
It seems he is saying *I want your kid to know the lesson, but I also want
your kid to run around and cause problems because the rest are doing it.* He
wants your child to know why jumping off the bridge is wrong, but he still
wants him to do it. @@
I know he doesn't want his 9th grade classes to be disruptive. I am sure he
doesn't say to parents, *Jane is a great student, she behaves in class, does
her homework, passes her tests, and I think she is a terrific kid. The only
problem is Jane doesn't pass notes to her friends like all the others do. You
need to get Jane involved in the cheerleading squad, so she will act more
like all the other girls in her class.*
I nominate this dullard for the dufus of the year award! What an @$$!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/6/02 4:21:14 PM Central Daylight Time, Dnowens@...
writes:
what the group wants even if it goes against his better judgment, only serves
to break a child down. It erodes their self confidence, it teaches them that
they are not important.
Darin says maybe the teacher is trying to make the point that kids have to
learn that sometimes the rights of an individual cannot supersede the rights
of the group. Ie the Unabomber may have the right to freedom of speech, but
not if it interferes with the rights of the rest of us. I say fine! But kids
can learn all about the rights of the individual vs the rights of the
majority by reading about cases like the unabomber, or numerous other court
cases and not be forced into a group situation where their self worth is torn
asunder! Thereby creating the child who will grow up and become exactly what
the so called lesson was supposed to teach/guard against. (a Unabomber,
Manson, Bundy or even the everyday average bank robber or drug dealer) Does
that make any sense or am I just rambling incoherently?
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I would have said to him, Why does my child have to be put into situationsAnd another thing! Forcing a child into a group situation where he has to do
> where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not something he
> wants?
what the group wants even if it goes against his better judgment, only serves
to break a child down. It erodes their self confidence, it teaches them that
they are not important.
Darin says maybe the teacher is trying to make the point that kids have to
learn that sometimes the rights of an individual cannot supersede the rights
of the group. Ie the Unabomber may have the right to freedom of speech, but
not if it interferes with the rights of the rest of us. I say fine! But kids
can learn all about the rights of the individual vs the rights of the
majority by reading about cases like the unabomber, or numerous other court
cases and not be forced into a group situation where their self worth is torn
asunder! Thereby creating the child who will grow up and become exactly what
the so called lesson was supposed to teach/guard against. (a Unabomber,
Manson, Bundy or even the everyday average bank robber or drug dealer) Does
that make any sense or am I just rambling incoherently?
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Muday
Dnowens@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/6/02 2:14:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
debiwatson@... writes:
I take it the Sunday school teacher is the one who said "Or like the
unabomber.."
I would have said to him, Why does my child have to be put into situations
where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not something he
wants? You praise my child for listening quietly, following directions,
knowing his lesson, yet when he doesn't act like the others in class, being
disruptive, talking out of turn, not paying attention and not knowing the
lesson, you say he needs to know how to do this so he will be socialized.
WHY???
This man says your son isn't very socialized, yet I think your child
obviously is very socialized. He just may not be a social person. (nothing
wrong with that) There is a difference between knowing how to act socially,
and being a social person, too many people get the two confused. He knows how
to behave in situations like church, he knows how to behave in situations
like cub scouts. Why the push for the group mentality thing? It goes back to
that old adage, if everyone were jumping off the bridge would you do it too?
It seems he is saying *I want your kid to know the lesson, but I also want
your kid to run around and cause problems because the rest are doing it.* He
wants your child to know why jumping off the bridge is wrong, but he still
wants him to do it. @@
I know he doesn't want his 9th grade classes to be disruptive. I am sure he
doesn't say to parents, *Jane is a great student, she behaves in class, does
her homework, passes her tests, and I think she is a terrific kid. The only
problem is Jane doesn't pass notes to her friends like all the others do. You
need to get Jane involved in the cheerleading squad, so she will act more
like all the other girls in her class.*
I nominate this dullard for the dufus of the year award! What an @$$!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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I applaude you, I have two young adults, teens, one graduated from a high school, who is very smart, but not very social, he now attends college, he will be in his 2nd year in Sept, he has friends, just not outgoing, like our daughter, who now we're unschooling, because she learns differntly from her brother, life is learning and we're teaching her to respect others, the way she would like to be respected and treated. I love the group and I'm learning from all of you keep up the good work.
supermom50mm@...
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 7/6/02 2:14:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
debiwatson@... writes:
> That's what I see the problem is with homeschooling. Thoses kids don't know~SNORK~ @@
> how to act around other kids. You've done fine with the academics, but he
> isn't very socialized. In my professional opinion (he is a ninth grade
> teacher during the week), you need to get him involved with other kids a
> lot more, and you should think about putting him in school as soon as
> possible. He needs to learn how to be part of a group; a team player." I
> tried to explain that he is a Cub and a member of Junior Forest Wardens;
> that he went to swimming lessons and frequent field trips with a bunch of
> homeschool kids, and that we went and had a play day usually once a week at
> various friends houses, but he waved that aside. I tried again. "He just
> doesn't like groups very much. He is much happier one on one, and he also
> tends to be a leader. As first born, he is used to being in charge a lot,
> and while I know he can get downright bossy, we have been trying to work on
> learning to compromise. Maybe he is one of those kids who just prefers
> things to be the way he wants, and he'd rather have a few close friends
> with similar goals and direction, than a throng of acquaintances. Kind of
> like Bill Gates, or something." "Or, like the Unabomber. He has to learn
> to be part of a team -- just one of the players. He needs to be put in
> positions where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not what
> HE personally wants. He needs to learn to be one of the subordinates -- it
> is a situation he will be encountering all his life, and he needs to learn
> to deal with it now." After a few more fruitless exchanges, I went away,
> totally dejected.
I take it the Sunday school teacher is the one who said "Or like the
unabomber.."
I would have said to him, Why does my child have to be put into situations
where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not something he
wants? You praise my child for listening quietly, following directions,
knowing his lesson, yet when he doesn't act like the others in class, being
disruptive, talking out of turn, not paying attention and not knowing the
lesson, you say he needs to know how to do this so he will be socialized.
WHY???
This man says your son isn't very socialized, yet I think your child
obviously is very socialized. He just may not be a social person. (nothing
wrong with that) There is a difference between knowing how to act socially,
and being a social person, too many people get the two confused. He knows how
to behave in situations like church, he knows how to behave in situations
like cub scouts. Why the push for the group mentality thing? It goes back to
that old adage, if everyone were jumping off the bridge would you do it too?
It seems he is saying *I want your kid to know the lesson, but I also want
your kid to run around and cause problems because the rest are doing it.* He
wants your child to know why jumping off the bridge is wrong, but he still
wants him to do it. @@
I know he doesn't want his 9th grade classes to be disruptive. I am sure he
doesn't say to parents, *Jane is a great student, she behaves in class, does
her homework, passes her tests, and I think she is a terrific kid. The only
problem is Jane doesn't pass notes to her friends like all the others do. You
need to get Jane involved in the cheerleading squad, so she will act more
like all the other girls in her class.*
I nominate this dullard for the dufus of the year award! What an @$$!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
I applaude you, I have two young adults, teens, one graduated from a high school, who is very smart, but not very social, he now attends college, he will be in his 2nd year in Sept, he has friends, just not outgoing, like our daughter, who now we're unschooling, because she learns differntly from her brother, life is learning and we're teaching her to respect others, the way she would like to be respected and treated. I love the group and I'm learning from all of you keep up the good work.
supermom50mm@...
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KT
>I gasped out loud. What an insult!
>
>Or, like the Unabomber.
>
He's asking the kid to misbehave. But if he was the worst behaved kid
in the class, he'd be saying you should put him in school so he can
learn to behave!
I think I'd demand an apology.
Tuck
joanna514
> This is kind of the stage I'm at. I have a bizarrelittle story to insert here -- the other day, after church, my ds's
Sunday School teacher stopped me to tell me he was concerned about my
son. Ds is nine, and in a class of all girls. They tend to be very
giggly and off-topic, and my son gets annoyed with them.
To me, this first part was key to the whole problem the teacher may
have been having with your ds. He was the only boy!
Girls and boys at that age are way different.
Had there been one or two more boys, I bet your son wouldn't have
stood out a bit. Even if the boys weren't friends with each other.
Ya think other schooled boys would have joined in the giggling?
It seems to me, this guy was looking for an opportunity to see your
son standing out, and comment on it.
I wouldn't let this incedent bother me.
Joanna
Tia Leschke
>Great point.
>I know he doesn't want his 9th grade classes to be disruptive. I am sure he
>doesn't say to parents, *Jane is a great student, she behaves in class, does
>her homework, passes her tests, and I think she is a terrific kid. The only
>problem is Jane doesn't pass notes to her friends like all the others do. You
>need to get Jane involved in the cheerleading squad, so she will act more
>like all the other girls in her class.*
I'm reminded of that article that was in (I think) Time last year. One of
the reporters mentioned a study where the homeschooled kids tended to
exchange phone numbers and make friends easily, etc. This was supposed to
be evidence that they weren't being allowed to have a childhood . . . . . .
. .sigh.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Tia Leschke
> But kidsYou're making sense. And didn't the Unabomber, Manson, and Bundy all go to
>can learn all about the rights of the individual vs the rights of the
>majority by reading about cases like the unabomber, or numerous other court
>cases and not be forced into a group situation where their self worth is torn
>asunder! Thereby creating the child who will grow up and become exactly what
>the so called lesson was supposed to teach/guard against. (a Unabomber,
>Manson, Bundy or even the everyday average bank robber or drug dealer) Does
>that make any sense or am I just rambling incoherently?
school?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/6/02 1:14:52 PM, debiwatson@... writes:
<< So my question is this: do I need to be concerned? Was this just some
big deal that I was totally oblivious to, or does he really need to get a
handle on dealing with groups? >>
I wouldn't worry.
My kids have complained to me about other kids in organized activities and
classes not paying attention, not caring to learn what they're all there to
learn. Well MY kids are there to learn, but sometimes the other kids are
there to socialize! My kids socialize lots, and are not dependent on
less-formal-than-school situations in which to play.
So I just discuss it with my kids. I say "that drama class(or karate, or
skating or hockey or whatever) is less structured and formal than their
school, so they're kind of taking a break! And to you, it's the most
structured thing in your live AND you are there by choice. It's just going
to be different for you. If all the kids really wanted to be there, they'd
all be more like you. But cut them a break because they are tired of school,
and need to play."
Sandra
<< So my question is this: do I need to be concerned? Was this just some
big deal that I was totally oblivious to, or does he really need to get a
handle on dealing with groups? >>
I wouldn't worry.
My kids have complained to me about other kids in organized activities and
classes not paying attention, not caring to learn what they're all there to
learn. Well MY kids are there to learn, but sometimes the other kids are
there to socialize! My kids socialize lots, and are not dependent on
less-formal-than-school situations in which to play.
So I just discuss it with my kids. I say "that drama class(or karate, or
skating or hockey or whatever) is less structured and formal than their
school, so they're kind of taking a break! And to you, it's the most
structured thing in your live AND you are there by choice. It's just going
to be different for you. If all the kids really wanted to be there, they'd
all be more like you. But cut them a break because they are tired of school,
and need to play."
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/6/02 5:21:38 PM, Tuck@... writes:
<< He's asking the kid to misbehave. But if he was the worst behaved kid
in the class, he'd be saying you should put him in school so he can
learn to behave!
<<I think I'd demand an apology. >>
I would write a letter and send it to the teacher IN WRITING and the
superintendent of the Sunday School. You could borrow from the phrases of
some of the writers here!
IF Sunday School is to socialize, they should be socializing upward, not
downward to less maturity. IF Sunday School is to consider the word of God,
or any moral or ethical issues, then a child who is interested in such should
be praised, not criticized.
Sandra
<< He's asking the kid to misbehave. But if he was the worst behaved kid
in the class, he'd be saying you should put him in school so he can
learn to behave!
<<I think I'd demand an apology. >>
I would write a letter and send it to the teacher IN WRITING and the
superintendent of the Sunday School. You could borrow from the phrases of
some of the writers here!
IF Sunday School is to socialize, they should be socializing upward, not
downward to less maturity. IF Sunday School is to consider the word of God,
or any moral or ethical issues, then a child who is interested in such should
be praised, not criticized.
Sandra
tonya wright
I'm not sure I introduced myself yet but I don't think putting him in school
is the solution. The Sunday school teacher is a school teacher by
profession so if everyone home schooled he'd be out of a job right? It's
like asking an obstetrician if you should have a home birth. If course he's
going to say "NO!" Instead of complimenting your son on his good behavior
he is grasping at straws for reasons he thinks you should enroll him in
school. In my opinion it's none of his business how you choose to educate
your child. You're taking on a responsibility that alot of parents won't be
bothered with. You should be encouraged and admired for it, not made to
defend your decision to him.
Make him feel subordinate because he needs to get used to it?????? Give me
a break.
Tonya
Brittany & Melody's Mommy
4/22/99 12/01/01
The secret to life isn't getting what you want it's wanting it once you get
it-Katherine Hepburn in "Love Affair"
Remember starting the fire is easy, the hardest part is learning how to keep
the flame-Stevie Nicks "Love's A Hard Game To Play" Timespace
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is the solution. The Sunday school teacher is a school teacher by
profession so if everyone home schooled he'd be out of a job right? It's
like asking an obstetrician if you should have a home birth. If course he's
going to say "NO!" Instead of complimenting your son on his good behavior
he is grasping at straws for reasons he thinks you should enroll him in
school. In my opinion it's none of his business how you choose to educate
your child. You're taking on a responsibility that alot of parents won't be
bothered with. You should be encouraged and admired for it, not made to
defend your decision to him.
Make him feel subordinate because he needs to get used to it?????? Give me
a break.
Tonya
Brittany & Melody's Mommy
4/22/99 12/01/01
The secret to life isn't getting what you want it's wanting it once you get
it-Katherine Hepburn in "Love Affair"
Remember starting the fire is easy, the hardest part is learning how to keep
the flame-Stevie Nicks "Love's A Hard Game To Play" Timespace
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
[email protected]
Perhaps you need to get another unschooled 9yo boy into the class so the two
of them can walk off together when the girls get antsy. I'm sure the teacher
would see that as sign of positive socialization.
Your son probably doesn't need to practice for a life filled with needing to
fit into a group of giggly 9yo girls. :) I wouldn't worry.
My kids have run into this problem, especially in groups with schoolish
homeschoolers, or in groups with schooled kids meeting shortly after school.
My kids are there to get something more formally structured than the rest of
their day, while the rest of the kids are hoping to blow off steam. It can
make for tension. I ask my kids to try to be understanding, while still
trying to get their own expectations for the situation met.
Deborah in IL
of them can walk off together when the girls get antsy. I'm sure the teacher
would see that as sign of positive socialization.
Your son probably doesn't need to practice for a life filled with needing to
fit into a group of giggly 9yo girls. :) I wouldn't worry.
My kids have run into this problem, especially in groups with schoolish
homeschoolers, or in groups with schooled kids meeting shortly after school.
My kids are there to get something more formally structured than the rest of
their day, while the rest of the kids are hoping to blow off steam. It can
make for tension. I ask my kids to try to be understanding, while still
trying to get their own expectations for the situation met.
Deborah in IL
Staci Katsivalis
I have thoroughly enjoyed the "debate" going on about teaching and learning
and have gained much from Sandra pointing out the difference in one's
mindset. Thank you to all who have contributed.
My question is somewhat related to teach or learn. My dd is just 6 and is
trying to read and recently type/write. She wrote an email to a family
member. Sometimes she asks to spell a word sometimes she types what sounds
right. Do I correct her if she spells a word wrong or just leave her to do
it and if so, how? I realise that the language one uses is vitally important
in getting the correct message across and I would really appreciate some
advice on how to approach this. I have read alot of stories about how
children have learnt to read, but I would really like the "daily" tasks that
were involved ie. do you correct spelling?
TIA
Staci in Corfu
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and have gained much from Sandra pointing out the difference in one's
mindset. Thank you to all who have contributed.
My question is somewhat related to teach or learn. My dd is just 6 and is
trying to read and recently type/write. She wrote an email to a family
member. Sometimes she asks to spell a word sometimes she types what sounds
right. Do I correct her if she spells a word wrong or just leave her to do
it and if so, how? I realise that the language one uses is vitally important
in getting the correct message across and I would really appreciate some
advice on how to approach this. I have read alot of stories about how
children have learnt to read, but I would really like the "daily" tasks that
were involved ie. do you correct spelling?
TIA
Staci in Corfu
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/7/02 3:34:46 AM, staci@... writes:
<< Sometimes she asks to spell a word sometimes she types what sounds
right. Do I correct her if she spells a word wrong or just leave her to do
it and if so, how? >>
Ask her if she wants help.
Some people would prefer to send out flawless messages even at the age of
six. Others will just quit writing altogether if they get one more
unsolicited piece of criticism.
Temperament, personality and relationship between the writer and critic are
all bigger factors than anything objective we could say here.
When I'm shown a piece of Holly-writing, if it's readable I just read it.
When she wants help she asks.
I never correct Marty unless what he's written is ambiguous.
With Kirby, he hates making errors. So if the writing is going to be seen by
more than one person, I'll point out a thing or two, and ask if he wants me
to help him edit it.
Sandra
<< Sometimes she asks to spell a word sometimes she types what sounds
right. Do I correct her if she spells a word wrong or just leave her to do
it and if so, how? >>
Ask her if she wants help.
Some people would prefer to send out flawless messages even at the age of
six. Others will just quit writing altogether if they get one more
unsolicited piece of criticism.
Temperament, personality and relationship between the writer and critic are
all bigger factors than anything objective we could say here.
When I'm shown a piece of Holly-writing, if it's readable I just read it.
When she wants help she asks.
I never correct Marty unless what he's written is ambiguous.
With Kirby, he hates making errors. So if the writing is going to be seen by
more than one person, I'll point out a thing or two, and ask if he wants me
to help him edit it.
Sandra
KT
>We have an agreement. I tell him what's misspelled, or spell for him,
>
>Do I correct her if she spells a word wrong or just leave her to do
>it and if so, how? I realise that the language one uses is vitally important
>in getting the correct message across and I would really appreciate some
>advice on how to approach this. I have read alot of stories about how
>children have learnt to read, but I would really like the "daily" tasks that
>were involved ie. do you correct spelling?
>
only if he asks.
When he was lots younger, I used to spell every word for him while he
wrote his stories, etc., because he couldn't read those words. (He
became "fluent" at 7 <g>) So, we had a precedent of me spelling words
all the time, and he was open to it. As time went on (he's 8.5 now), he
wrote less, but since he could read, he didn't need my help so much. I
didn't offer it.
It just came to a point where I realized that he might not be
comfortable for me to spell everything for him anymore, and so I simply
asked. I said something like, "I know you can read and everything now,
and I used to spell stuff for you. I don't want to tell you how to do
something if you don't want me to, because it might mess with your
thoughts or something. So, do you want me to tell you when you misspell
something? Do you want me to tell you *before* if I happen to see you
about to do it, or *after* you've finished what you're writing?"
He wants me to ask every time. Sometimes he wants to get his writing
out right away, and doesn't want to be stopped. Sometimes what he's
writing is to be seen by others and he wants to make sure they'll
understand it. I don't hover over him when he's writing all the time,
so sometimes he just does it and doesn't care about the spelling and
doesn't ask me.
I'd much rather he learn that I respect his way of learning, than how to
spell everything perfectly.
Tuck
Fetteroll
on 7/7/02 5:35 AM, Staci Katsivalis at staci@... wrote:
didn't correct her that she'd stop there and never move onto "Mommy, could
you pick me up, please?"
The standard spellings are all around us, just as full sentence speaking is.
And perhaps even more important are other kids trying to communicate using
creative spelling. Since no one uses the same creative spelling as anyone
else, kids realize trying to read nonstandard spelling is an effort and
sometimes the meaning isn't clear. There's a motive for standard spelling
when kdis feel a need to be clear.
When it's "vitally important" to *her* to get the correct message across she
will.
As others suggested, asking if she wants help is good :-) My daughter and I
have talked a number of times about how English spelling isn't obvious --
someone came up with the idea of "word jail" to which any word that isn't
spelled how it sounds goes -- so she doesn't feel as though she's wrong if
she can't guess the standard spelling.
Joyce
> I realise that the language one uses is vitally importantWhen she was a toddler and said "Mommy! Up!" did you worry that if you
> in getting the correct message across and I would really appreciate some
> advice on how to approach this.
didn't correct her that she'd stop there and never move onto "Mommy, could
you pick me up, please?"
The standard spellings are all around us, just as full sentence speaking is.
And perhaps even more important are other kids trying to communicate using
creative spelling. Since no one uses the same creative spelling as anyone
else, kids realize trying to read nonstandard spelling is an effort and
sometimes the meaning isn't clear. There's a motive for standard spelling
when kdis feel a need to be clear.
When it's "vitally important" to *her* to get the correct message across she
will.
As others suggested, asking if she wants help is good :-) My daughter and I
have talked a number of times about how English spelling isn't obvious --
someone came up with the idea of "word jail" to which any word that isn't
spelled how it sounds goes -- so she doesn't feel as though she's wrong if
she can't guess the standard spelling.
Joyce
Bill and Diane
I would correct based on context. That is, if the writing is for herself or others who share your learning philosophy, leave it be. But
if the email is to the non-supportive relatives whose corrections are likely to be far more tactless than yours, you might suggest
spellcheck or having someone read it over. It's her choice, though, whether to follow that suggestion.
As a rule, I don't correct my son's spelling, nor do I encourage him to write to the "schoolish" part of the family. Unfortunately,
they don't know what they're missing.
:-) Diane
Staci Katsivalis wrote:
if the email is to the non-supportive relatives whose corrections are likely to be far more tactless than yours, you might suggest
spellcheck or having someone read it over. It's her choice, though, whether to follow that suggestion.
As a rule, I don't correct my son's spelling, nor do I encourage him to write to the "schoolish" part of the family. Unfortunately,
they don't know what they're missing.
:-) Diane
Staci Katsivalis wrote:
> I have thoroughly enjoyed the "debate" going on about teaching and learning
> and have gained much from Sandra pointing out the difference in one's
> mindset. Thank you to all who have contributed.
> My question is somewhat related to teach or learn. My dd is just 6 and is
> trying to read and recently type/write. She wrote an email to a family
> member. Sometimes she asks to spell a word sometimes she types what sounds
> right. Do I correct her if she spells a word wrong or just leave her to do
> it and if so, how? I realise that the language one uses is vitally important
> in getting the correct message across and I would really appreciate some
> advice on how to approach this. I have read alot of stories about how
> children have learnt to read, but I would really like the "daily" tasks that
> were involved ie. do you correct spelling?
> TIA
>
> Staci in Corfu
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/7/02 4:34:24 AM Central Daylight Time, staci@...
writes:
she asks if some words she has already written are spelled correctly, then I
would tell her, or show her how to use the spell checker. Moly at 8.5 is very
funny about things like this. She wants me to help, but then doesn't. She
would come to me asking if I would read the emails she sends to her Grandma,
"What words are wrong, Mom?" So there I would sit, correcting her words and
she would just break out in tears. I learned that she didn't want me to
correct her words. She just wanted to know which ones were wrong. Why? Who
knows, 8.5 girls are funny. I showed her how to use the spell checker. She is
much happier with this arrangement. She can do it all by herself, and I think
that is what is important to her.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> My question is somewhat related to teach or learn. My dd is just 6 and isI wouldn't correct her at all. If she asks how to spell a word, tell her. If
> trying to read and recently type/write. She wrote an email to a family
> member. Sometimes she asks to spell a word sometimes she types what sounds
> right. Do I correct her if she spells a word wrong or just leave her to do
> it and if so, how?
she asks if some words she has already written are spelled correctly, then I
would tell her, or show her how to use the spell checker. Moly at 8.5 is very
funny about things like this. She wants me to help, but then doesn't. She
would come to me asking if I would read the emails she sends to her Grandma,
"What words are wrong, Mom?" So there I would sit, correcting her words and
she would just break out in tears. I learned that she didn't want me to
correct her words. She just wanted to know which ones were wrong. Why? Who
knows, 8.5 girls are funny. I showed her how to use the spell checker. She is
much happier with this arrangement. She can do it all by herself, and I think
that is what is important to her.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
>>The teacher obviously has a strong pro-school bias that is going toinfluence what he says. Instead of trying to understand the situation
through his reporting it might be better to sit in on the Sunday school
class and watch how your son is behaving.
I think this was a very valuable suggestion, and I took it this week. The teacher had them outside on the grass, so I sat behind a tree where I couldn't be seen, and observed. I saw that the girls were a tight little group who whispered and giggled and looked at my son, then whispered and giggled some more. He sat with head bowed, trying to ignore them. The teacher tried to get them discussing the Good Samaritan, and the girls answered some of the questions, but often strayed onto what movie they had seen the night before and who was going to be allowed at the sleepover. Ds wandered to the edge of the creek, and picked up a stone (he has a rock collection at home he is constantly adding to). The girls responded by giggling, and shrieking "Don't throw that at us". Instead, he threw them a dirty look. Several times ds growled "I wish you guys would be quiet" without making eye contact with anyone. I finally got up and went away. Yes, it obvious ds needs to bone up his peer interaction skills in terms of lightening up a little and maybe making a wise crack instead of glaring. He probably could use a reminder that he can't control their behavior, any more than I can control his. But the Unabomber? No, he just needs another guy to sit beside and draw off some of the fire.
>> IF your son is going so far as tochide the other children about their immature behavior, that sounds like
it could cause ongoing social interaction problems.
This is, unfortunately, true. Of course the other kids are not going to respond positively to being growled and glared at. I can tell he is doing it out of frustration, though. Anybody know a nice, pre-packaged curriculum that teaches how to interact with your peers? (snicker)
>>I certainly don't think that sending shy or independent children toschool improves them in any way.
Or Sunday School, apparently. Thanks for your 2 cents, Betsy. They made a lot of ... sense (smile) ! Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
>>~SNORK~ @@unabomber.."
>>I take it the Sunday school teacher is the one who said "Or like the
Yup. I tried to advance Bill Gates as a plausible loner type who succeeded by the world's standards.
>>I would have said to him, Why does my child have to be put into situations where he HAS to do what the group wants, even if it is not something he wants?I wish I would have thought of that! I guess part I see so many people out there who are in jobs they hate, doing what they're told to do, that I completely forgot about being self employed instead. I was just so shocked to hear him compared to the Unabomber that I momentarily lost the power of speech.
>>This man says your son isn't very socialized, yet I think your childobviously is very socialized. He just may not be a social person. (nothing
wrong with that) There is a difference between knowing how to act socially,
and being a social person, too many people get the two confused. He knows how
to behave in situations like church, he knows how to behave in situations
like cub scouts. Why the push for the group mentality thing? I am sure he
doesn't say to parents, *Jane is a great student, she behaves in class, does her homework, passes her tests, and I think she is a terrific kid. The only problem is Jane doesn't pass notes to her friends like all the others do. You need to get Jane involved in the cheerleading squad, so she will act more like all the other girls in her class.*
I nominate this dullard for the dufus of the year award! What an @$$!
~Nancy
Thanks, Nancy! I have found one of the best antidotes to outrage is humor to put it into perspective, so you can do something more constructive than gripe. Thanks for helping get my brain in gear! Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
>>And another thing! Forcing a child into a group situation where he has to do what the group wants even if it goes against his better judgment, only serves to break a child down. It erodes their self confidence, it teaches them that they are not important.Which is exactly what I saw in his class today. He needs to learn to approach others less confrontationally, but I don't think this is the group he needs to learn it on. I feel badly that things went this far before I found there was a problem, but all his other teachers said that things were fine when I asked. They were always saying how well behaved he and his sister were. He needs to be pulled out of the class so he can feel good about the standards he has chosen to uphold, and once he is more at ease, we can work on how to help the others see his view point (and work on him understanding theirs!). Or am I wrong? Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
>>He's asking the kid to misbehave. But if he was the worst behaved kidin the class, he'd be saying you should put him in school so he can
learn to behave!
I have finally seen beyond my immediate emotional reaction to this situation to grasp the irony, and it really is funny. Schooling (and unschooling) sure can push a lot of previously unrecognized buttons! Debi
>>I think I'd demand an apology. TuckI'm still deciding what measures to take. It's nice to see that my reaction wasn't that off-base -- that lots of you would have been upset, too. Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 7/7/02 5:50 PM, debi watson at debiwatson@... wrote:
isn't what he's looking for so why should he have to put up with it? If this
were an adult class, he'd have the freedom to leave and go find another
class that suited his needs. In the adult world, we get to choose whether
the bad parts are worth putting up with for the good parts. In the child
world, basically the only choice they have is to put up with. And often what
they're putting up with is something they don't want anyway. :-/
So why *should* his behavior in that situation be conventional? He isn't in
a conventional situation. In fact behaving "normally" in an abnormal
situation is rather abnormal. It's amazing kids manage to survive childhood!
Joyce
> Yes, it obvious ds needs to bone up his peer interaction skills in terms ofI think what he needs is another class! ;-) What this class is offering
> lightening up a little and maybe making a wise crack instead of glaring. He
> probably could use a reminder that he can't control their behavior, any more
> than I can control his.
isn't what he's looking for so why should he have to put up with it? If this
were an adult class, he'd have the freedom to leave and go find another
class that suited his needs. In the adult world, we get to choose whether
the bad parts are worth putting up with for the good parts. In the child
world, basically the only choice they have is to put up with. And often what
they're putting up with is something they don't want anyway. :-/
So why *should* his behavior in that situation be conventional? He isn't in
a conventional situation. In fact behaving "normally" in an abnormal
situation is rather abnormal. It's amazing kids manage to survive childhood!
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 7/7/02 6:02 PM, debi watson at debiwatson@... wrote:
he will learn bit by bit from different situations, from talking about
various ways he can handle problem sitatuions next time, from growing and
maturing. I'm still working on social skills that some people mastered at 6
;-) Lots of it is a matter of what intelligences we have.
Joyce
> He needs to learn to approach others less confrontationally, but I don't thinkAnd maybe don't see it as something he needs to learn so much as something
> this is the group he needs to learn it on.
he will learn bit by bit from different situations, from talking about
various ways he can handle problem sitatuions next time, from growing and
maturing. I'm still working on social skills that some people mastered at 6
;-) Lots of it is a matter of what intelligences we have.
Joyce
debi watson
>>It seems to me, this guy was looking for an opportunity to see yourson standing out, and comment on it.
I wouldn't let this incedent bother me.
Joanna
Yes, now that some time has gone by, the words don't sting as much. The truly sad thing is, in a few years the focus will have changed and his Sunday School teachers will be *encouraging* him to stand out from the crowd and be faithful to what he believes in. Weird old world we live in. Debi
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
You know, Tia, I have been reading this tag line of yours for a while now, but it just struck me again how truly appropriate it is -- that and your other one, "What you think of me is none of my business"! Debi
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Eleanor Roosevelt
You know, Tia, I have been reading this tag line of yours for a while now, but it just struck me again how truly appropriate it is -- that and your other one, "What you think of me is none of my business"! Debi
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
You're making sense. And didn't the Unabomber, Manson, and Bundy all go to
school?
Tia
Snicker! I'm using all of this in my letter to the teacher. Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
school?
Tia
Snicker! I'm using all of this in my letter to the teacher. Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
>>My kids have complained to me about other kids in organized activities and classes not paying attention, not caring to learn what they're all there to learn. (snip)So I just discuss it with my kids. I say "that drama class(or karate, orskating or hockey or whatever) is less structured and formal than their school, so they're kind of taking a break!
This is true. It's what we've had to tell him about Cubs ("Mom, how come the other kids are running in the halls instead of making their periscopes? I really wanted to practice Morse code, and we couldn't, because they wouldn't sit down and listen"). I guess we just chalk it up to "One More Reason We Will Never Send You To School". Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debi watson
>>Perhaps you need to get another unschooled 9yo boy into the class so the two of them can walk off together when the girls get antsy. I'm sure the teacher would see that as sign of positive socialization.I wish it were that easy! Too bad such creatures don't grow on trees (actually, you can often find them there...)
>>Your son probably doesn't need to practice for a life filled with needing to fit into a group of giggly 9yo girls.ROFLOL! If he decided he DID, *then* I would worry! Thanks, Deborah. Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]