Could someone please put into perspective for me...
mrsmayberry4
the link between unschooling and being able to score high enough on
the SAT to get into college? My oldest child in going into 7th grade
and I'm feeling the need to find out EXACTLY how others have done it
and gotten their kids accepted into colleges. I don't want to wait
until it's too late and find out that she will not get into college
because we never covered certain things, etc. Am I making sense?
the SAT to get into college? My oldest child in going into 7th grade
and I'm feeling the need to find out EXACTLY how others have done it
and gotten their kids accepted into colleges. I don't want to wait
until it's too late and find out that she will not get into college
because we never covered certain things, etc. Am I making sense?
Liza Sabater
check out peter kowalke's website at <>www.kowalke.com. he also has
links to other sources.
links to other sources.
>the link between unschooling and being able to score high enough on[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>the SAT to get into college? My oldest child in going into 7th grade
>and I'm feeling the need to find out EXACTLY how others have done it
>and gotten their kids accepted into colleges. I don't want to wait
>until it's too late and find out that she will not get into college
>because we never covered certain things, etc. Am I making sense?
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/2/02 3:25:59 PM, mrsmayberry@... writes:
<< I don't want to wait
until it's too late and find out that she will not get into college
because we never covered certain things, etc. Am I making sense? >>
Not really. <g>
You feel a need to know something exactly which doesn't exactly exist!
Is there one moment in which she can get into college, after which she has
missed the boat forever and ever?
NO. *That* is an important thing to know! She's twelve years old. When
she's fifteen, maybe she could take a course or two at a community college
and see how she likes it. Maybe she'll love it and be a sophomore by the
time she might want to take an SAT test. And she might never ever need to
take one.
If you live for six years from now, you could mess up today!
And she might not want to go to college when she's 18. Maybe later. Maybe
never.
Sandra
<< I don't want to wait
until it's too late and find out that she will not get into college
because we never covered certain things, etc. Am I making sense? >>
Not really. <g>
You feel a need to know something exactly which doesn't exactly exist!
Is there one moment in which she can get into college, after which she has
missed the boat forever and ever?
NO. *That* is an important thing to know! She's twelve years old. When
she's fifteen, maybe she could take a course or two at a community college
and see how she likes it. Maybe she'll love it and be a sophomore by the
time she might want to take an SAT test. And she might never ever need to
take one.
If you live for six years from now, you could mess up today!
And she might not want to go to college when she's 18. Maybe later. Maybe
never.
Sandra
Sue
<< I don't want to wait
whereby they accept homeschoolers by an interview and also they have some
sort of assessment that sees HOW WELL they learn and not what they have
learnt.
Sue
> until it's too late and find out that she will not get into collegeI know that there is one University here in Australia - Murdoch University -
> because we never covered certain things, etc. Am I making sense? >>
>
whereby they accept homeschoolers by an interview and also they have some
sort of assessment that sees HOW WELL they learn and not what they have
learnt.
Sue
Sue
> I know that there is one University here in Australia - MurdochUniversity -
> whereby they accept homeschoolers by an interview and also they have someNot that you would send your child to Australia or anything but I thought
> sort of assessment that sees HOW WELL they learn and not what they have
> learnt.
>
that this was signs up for homeschoolers here and an indication of a
progressive university.
> Suethe Moderator, Joyce Fetteroll, at fetteroll@...
>
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Heather Woodward
I know that there is one University here in Australia - Murdoch
University -
Heather A. Woodward
Longaberger Independant Sales Consultant
http://www.longaberger.com/heatherwoodward
"Handcrafted, American- made products that are functional, as well as beautiful"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
University -
> whereby they accept homeschoolers by an interview and also they have someFrom what I have read I hear Harvard does something similar. I am sure other colleges are following suit -
> sort of assessment that sees HOW WELL they learn and not what they have
> learnt.
Heather A. Woodward
Longaberger Independant Sales Consultant
http://www.longaberger.com/heatherwoodward
"Handcrafted, American- made products that are functional, as well as beautiful"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liza Sabater
Hi all,
I just had a conversation about this with two of my friends. Their
agita about homeschooling is that their kids (who are just 5 years
old) will never get accepted into college. SIGH! Anyhow, one of my
jobs while working on my BA was at the admissions office of NYUs
Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. I also worked as a Spanish &
Portuguese Adjunct Instructor who was also a mentor for both
undegrads and beginning graduate students. Granted, I worked for 3
years at the graduate school admission's office, but because the
office shared information with the undergraduate admissions office;
and because my department would make me the 'mamma' of many lost
souls, let me clue you into a couple of things:
+ Universities have a dirty little secret when it comes to the
admissions process. There are those that come through the
"floodgates" (the admissions office) and there are those who get in
"pre-accepted" by the heads of the departments. What does this mean?
THE INTERVIEW is the unwritten rule for getting into a lot of
universities I worked in or had friends working in (NYU, Columbia
Univ, Yale, Hardvard, all the CUNYs, Rutgers Newark & New Brunswick).
Getting admittance into a department is just like getting a job: The
higher up in the eschelons you get, the more likely you are to get to
the right person that will accept you. In the world of colleges, that
means:
Research not only the place but the people: Kids should not go
'green' to college --they really should have an idea of what their
major is going to be. This does not only mean reading the catalog of
courses, but getting familiar with the work of their future
professors. This means, reading their articles or books and, if
possible, even sitting in some classes. The more they get to know a
place or a department, the less likely your son or daughter will
waste their time (and your money) in what we used to call at the
admissions office a 'bs BA'.
Never underestimate the power of a handshake: Time and again I would
hear some of my bosses say, "wouldn't it be nice if more kids came in
so we could meet them". The ones that detested the idea were the ones
that, well, were the 'superstars' who would have to do the tour of
duty of chairing the department but could not wait to get holed up in
their lairs to ponder about the pluperfect. It is from those
interviews (and not from 'connections') that came a lot of the kids
accepted with scholarships. I cannot begin to stress how important it
is to not only have an interview but to grill them about what they
have to offer. It shows determination and commitment. Two people are
key for these interviews:
Chairperson of the Department
Department's Undergraduate Director
At big schools like NYU this is crucial because the Dean of
Undergraduate Studies can only offer guidance to the College at
large. In some instances they have a division that deals with
school-wide scholarships but these might be separate from the ones
that could be arranged through a department. Also, the DUS cannot
really counsel most of the time on which would be the best program to
join (within a department).
+ Then there is the revered 'high school diploma'. I am going to go
with the big school analogy here again. A lot of colleges have 2
undergraduate programs: one for high school kids and one for people
with 'unconventional educational backgrounds'. These programs offer
day and night courses and nowadays even e-courses. A student that
does not get into NYUs conventional BA/BS colleges can still get a
diploma from Gallatin or the School of Professional Studies. And in
most cases you can still get student aid or even scholarships (there
are not as many as in the conventional colleges but there is still
some --you have to research it based on the intended field of study).
Given the job market that we live in (and my years at the GAS) I can
tell you that, unless your son or daughter is going into a sales or
marketing job, for professional advancement, almost all jobs nowadays
require graduate course degrees. The only jobs that I know of that do
not are as 'creatives' in advertisement (although you need to have an
art/writing background) and certainly in the worlds of software and
web development ---a good software programmer or information
architect is worth her weight in gold no matter what kind of degree
(if any) she has.
SATs are important for the 'grind' of admissions offices. Transcripts
and SATs are for the bureaucrats --they are there anyway, to weed
away the thousands of applicants colleges like Columbia of Rutgers
get in a year. A portfolio, an interview and if possible an auditing
relationship with professors of a department are most likely going to
open more doors than just a high SAT score and a perfect transcript.
Which begs the question --yeah, but what if my kids wants to go to
college to a whole other time zone? Again, it all comes down to: can
you afford it? Because if they want the kind of college experience
most kids have (the bs BA), it might not be worth to get a second
mortgage on the house for that. They will probably end up in jobs
that will anyway require them to go to graduate school (there is such
a demand for jobs nowadays that a diploma, nor even a perfect BA
transcript is likely going to get yor kids a high paying job).
Still, by the time they do have to go for a graduate degree, the Ivy
League or top-ten graduate school diploma would make sense. At this
time also, either the job will pay for it or your kid will be able to
claim it as a professional deduction on their tax returns. And if you
do choose then to go for that second mortgage to help them, you will
have the piece of mind to know that with a JD or MD they will be able
to pay it back.
So don't worry about your child's unconventional education. There are
still a lot of options for them at the top colleges of the nation.
Best,
Liza "who spent way too many years in academia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just had a conversation about this with two of my friends. Their
agita about homeschooling is that their kids (who are just 5 years
old) will never get accepted into college. SIGH! Anyhow, one of my
jobs while working on my BA was at the admissions office of NYUs
Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. I also worked as a Spanish &
Portuguese Adjunct Instructor who was also a mentor for both
undegrads and beginning graduate students. Granted, I worked for 3
years at the graduate school admission's office, but because the
office shared information with the undergraduate admissions office;
and because my department would make me the 'mamma' of many lost
souls, let me clue you into a couple of things:
+ Universities have a dirty little secret when it comes to the
admissions process. There are those that come through the
"floodgates" (the admissions office) and there are those who get in
"pre-accepted" by the heads of the departments. What does this mean?
THE INTERVIEW is the unwritten rule for getting into a lot of
universities I worked in or had friends working in (NYU, Columbia
Univ, Yale, Hardvard, all the CUNYs, Rutgers Newark & New Brunswick).
Getting admittance into a department is just like getting a job: The
higher up in the eschelons you get, the more likely you are to get to
the right person that will accept you. In the world of colleges, that
means:
Research not only the place but the people: Kids should not go
'green' to college --they really should have an idea of what their
major is going to be. This does not only mean reading the catalog of
courses, but getting familiar with the work of their future
professors. This means, reading their articles or books and, if
possible, even sitting in some classes. The more they get to know a
place or a department, the less likely your son or daughter will
waste their time (and your money) in what we used to call at the
admissions office a 'bs BA'.
Never underestimate the power of a handshake: Time and again I would
hear some of my bosses say, "wouldn't it be nice if more kids came in
so we could meet them". The ones that detested the idea were the ones
that, well, were the 'superstars' who would have to do the tour of
duty of chairing the department but could not wait to get holed up in
their lairs to ponder about the pluperfect. It is from those
interviews (and not from 'connections') that came a lot of the kids
accepted with scholarships. I cannot begin to stress how important it
is to not only have an interview but to grill them about what they
have to offer. It shows determination and commitment. Two people are
key for these interviews:
Chairperson of the Department
Department's Undergraduate Director
At big schools like NYU this is crucial because the Dean of
Undergraduate Studies can only offer guidance to the College at
large. In some instances they have a division that deals with
school-wide scholarships but these might be separate from the ones
that could be arranged through a department. Also, the DUS cannot
really counsel most of the time on which would be the best program to
join (within a department).
+ Then there is the revered 'high school diploma'. I am going to go
with the big school analogy here again. A lot of colleges have 2
undergraduate programs: one for high school kids and one for people
with 'unconventional educational backgrounds'. These programs offer
day and night courses and nowadays even e-courses. A student that
does not get into NYUs conventional BA/BS colleges can still get a
diploma from Gallatin or the School of Professional Studies. And in
most cases you can still get student aid or even scholarships (there
are not as many as in the conventional colleges but there is still
some --you have to research it based on the intended field of study).
Given the job market that we live in (and my years at the GAS) I can
tell you that, unless your son or daughter is going into a sales or
marketing job, for professional advancement, almost all jobs nowadays
require graduate course degrees. The only jobs that I know of that do
not are as 'creatives' in advertisement (although you need to have an
art/writing background) and certainly in the worlds of software and
web development ---a good software programmer or information
architect is worth her weight in gold no matter what kind of degree
(if any) she has.
SATs are important for the 'grind' of admissions offices. Transcripts
and SATs are for the bureaucrats --they are there anyway, to weed
away the thousands of applicants colleges like Columbia of Rutgers
get in a year. A portfolio, an interview and if possible an auditing
relationship with professors of a department are most likely going to
open more doors than just a high SAT score and a perfect transcript.
Which begs the question --yeah, but what if my kids wants to go to
college to a whole other time zone? Again, it all comes down to: can
you afford it? Because if they want the kind of college experience
most kids have (the bs BA), it might not be worth to get a second
mortgage on the house for that. They will probably end up in jobs
that will anyway require them to go to graduate school (there is such
a demand for jobs nowadays that a diploma, nor even a perfect BA
transcript is likely going to get yor kids a high paying job).
Still, by the time they do have to go for a graduate degree, the Ivy
League or top-ten graduate school diploma would make sense. At this
time also, either the job will pay for it or your kid will be able to
claim it as a professional deduction on their tax returns. And if you
do choose then to go for that second mortgage to help them, you will
have the piece of mind to know that with a JD or MD they will be able
to pay it back.
So don't worry about your child's unconventional education. There are
still a lot of options for them at the top colleges of the nation.
Best,
Liza "who spent way too many years in academia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liza Sabater
BTW, if you have not read this month's HEM, try to get it. Peter
Kowalke has a great article on unschoolers who took the conventional
route to college and others who have unschooled their way through
college. Way, way cool.
Kowalke has a great article on unschoolers who took the conventional
route to college and others who have unschooled their way through
college. Way, way cool.
KT
>You're talking about such a small percentage of people in a smaller
>
>Still, by the time they do have to go for a graduate degree, the Ivy
>League or top-ten graduate school diploma would make sense.
>
percentage of situations. I'm having a hard time coming up with the
right words to describe this attitude except it's all just a bunch of
New York elitist bull. But I don't wish to be impolite.
Tuck
Liza Sabater
Hey Tuck,
He he he he. You may be right. I am just relaying my experience. As
we say in Puerto Rico, "así es como se bate el cobre". That's how you
forge ahead --it may not be nice, but it is an honest take on this
process.
I do have to say that an Ivy League graduate diploma can have a HUGE
impact on your starting salary for certain jobs. Not in the computer
tech world, though; but certainly in most traditional professions
(medicine, law, architecture, engineering, business). I am talking
about a 20-50K difference in pay per year (race and gender are also
factors in the equation). I know this for a fact because one of my
sisters in law graduate from Yale and her offers were 20K higher than
for guys coming out of NY Law School but 30K lower than guys from her
class with no job experience. It is insane.
In some CompTech jobs having a CompSci or engineering degree is not
seen necessarily as an advantage. But you're right, my experience
comes from the NY and from friends scattered about in the Northeast.
Don't worry, I don't take it personally. Higher education is a class
'thang' in NY, though. That's why I don't want to have anything to do
with it. But for those who want to tread in those waters, it is the
most honest advice I can give.
Best,
Liza
He he he he. You may be right. I am just relaying my experience. As
we say in Puerto Rico, "así es como se bate el cobre". That's how you
forge ahead --it may not be nice, but it is an honest take on this
process.
I do have to say that an Ivy League graduate diploma can have a HUGE
impact on your starting salary for certain jobs. Not in the computer
tech world, though; but certainly in most traditional professions
(medicine, law, architecture, engineering, business). I am talking
about a 20-50K difference in pay per year (race and gender are also
factors in the equation). I know this for a fact because one of my
sisters in law graduate from Yale and her offers were 20K higher than
for guys coming out of NY Law School but 30K lower than guys from her
class with no job experience. It is insane.
In some CompTech jobs having a CompSci or engineering degree is not
seen necessarily as an advantage. But you're right, my experience
comes from the NY and from friends scattered about in the Northeast.
Don't worry, I don't take it personally. Higher education is a class
'thang' in NY, though. That's why I don't want to have anything to do
with it. But for those who want to tread in those waters, it is the
most honest advice I can give.
Best,
Liza
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>Still, by the time they do have to go for a graduate degree, the Ivy
>>League or top-ten graduate school diploma would make sense.
>>
>
>You're talking about such a small percentage of people in a smaller
>percentage of situations. I'm having a hard time coming up with the
>right words to describe this attitude except it's all just a bunch of
>New York elitist bull. But I don't wish to be impolite.
>
>Tuck
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/9/02 6:46:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
liza@... writes:
Lindsborg, Kansas. In the fall of my junior year, which was my last semester
of highschool, (I hated my home life and worked extra hard to get all my
credits and finish school early) I went to Bethany and sang for the music
department-heads and took samples of my art work to the art department. I was
accepted by both. I explained that although I was only 15, I would be turning
16 in November and would be graduating at the end of the semester and, "Could
I please enter Bethany at the spring semester, rather than waiting until the
next fall?" They had absolutely no problem with me doing so. Only one
professor had reservations that I would be much younger than many of my dorm
mates, and did I think I would be able to handle the pressures? I responded
that I had worked so hard to make this goal and that I thought no pressure
could be as hard as what I had just about finished. Although I never
finished, having dropped after 2 1/2 years, I have always been glad of the
pre-acceptance. I would have had to wait another year to go to college
traditionally.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza@... writes:
> + Universities have a dirty little secret when it comes to theLOL I was one of those *pre-accepted*! I went to Bethany College in
> admissions process. There are those that come through the
> "floodgates" (the admissions office) and there are those who get in
> "pre-accepted" by the heads of the departments. What does this mean?
Lindsborg, Kansas. In the fall of my junior year, which was my last semester
of highschool, (I hated my home life and worked extra hard to get all my
credits and finish school early) I went to Bethany and sang for the music
department-heads and took samples of my art work to the art department. I was
accepted by both. I explained that although I was only 15, I would be turning
16 in November and would be graduating at the end of the semester and, "Could
I please enter Bethany at the spring semester, rather than waiting until the
next fall?" They had absolutely no problem with me doing so. Only one
professor had reservations that I would be much younger than many of my dorm
mates, and did I think I would be able to handle the pressures? I responded
that I had worked so hard to make this goal and that I thought no pressure
could be as hard as what I had just about finished. Although I never
finished, having dropped after 2 1/2 years, I have always been glad of the
pre-acceptance. I would have had to wait another year to go to college
traditionally.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/9/02 5:53:55 PM, Tuck@... writes:
<< I'm having a hard time coming up with the
right words to describe this attitude except it's all just a bunch of
New York elitist bull. But I don't wish to be impolite. >>
Well I'm glad you restrained yourself! <bwg>
It's really hard to be immersed in something and NOT look at the world
through that filter, though. And there are thousands of people for whom that
is their "real world."
Sandra
<< I'm having a hard time coming up with the
right words to describe this attitude except it's all just a bunch of
New York elitist bull. But I don't wish to be impolite. >>
Well I'm glad you restrained yourself! <bwg>
It's really hard to be immersed in something and NOT look at the world
through that filter, though. And there are thousands of people for whom that
is their "real world."
Sandra
Liza Sabater
>It's really hard to be immersed in something and NOT look at the worldI will take this as a resounding thank you for being able to provide
>through that filter, though. And there are thousands of people for whom that
>is their "real world."
>
>Sandra
you with some insight into that world. There are not thousands, but
millions of people for whom this kind of elitist world is a reality
(whether at school or work). If your kids want to step into it, they
might as well do it well informed.
I am particularly of the school of thought that not everybody should
go to college in their teens. Nowadays, even public higher education
is getting to be expensive. Many kids do not understand the cost of
incurring in all those student loans just to get to college (believe
me, I am one of them). If anything, teenagers should spend 3-4 years
looking for jobs in industries they may be interested in. Even if it
means working in a hospital cafeteria because one day he or she may
want to become a doctor. So many kids go to college without knowing
anything about the professions they want to join. It's really sad and
infuriating because the business of universities is to keep students,
hopefully, for ever.
If you did not like the business of primary education, you will be
horrified at the business of higher education. It is after all a
trillion dollar industry supported by the government and industry.
Even your tax dollars go to private universities with billion dollar
endowments like New York University (yep, that's 1billion in private
endowments, not counting what they get in tax-supported money from
the government).
The good news is that homeschoolers seem to have the skills necessary
for going to college. They have the people, researching and inquiring
skills needed to seize the day. Many have some kind of first hand
experience on what they want to major. Again, I can't even begin to
stress how important this is.
The interesting thing for me are the kids who are unschooling their
way through college. In this month's HEM there is that article I
mentioned and I hope Peter gets to write a more in depth article
about this phenomenon. One young woman finished 4 years of college
without a diploma --she took all the courses she wanted; in effect,
she unschooled her way through 4 years of college.
I find this interesting because, if she decides to go to the route of
getting a graduate degree; she would actually be able to do so. Yes,
even without high school and BA diplomas. There is a whole side of
the private higher education industry ---NYU, Yale, Columbia and
Harvard have programs that I know of--- that caters to these
untraditional students (and have been doing it for about 15 years
now). Their admissions process is completely different from the one
traditional students go through AND YET they all end up in the same
courses. What is different is the name of the division or college
they graduated from (within the university) and who ends up caring if
you graduated from the Liberal Arts (or whatever they call it)
program of Harvard? It is still Harvard.
Do I want my kids to go to Harvard? I want my kids to do whatever
they want --even if it means never setting foot at a university EVER.
Again, my husband and I have chosen to live an untraditional life
--and I have more degrees than most people. Actually, I think it
would freak me out a bit if they chose to be plain 9 to 5ers --we are
considered to be professional slackers after all (notwithstanding the
fact that I work an average of 7 hours a day ON TOP OF HOMESCHOOLING
and homemaking). I barely sleep, but that is a whole other matter.
Best,
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]