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In a message dated 7/1/02 12:46:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


And this is not as correct or as simple as it seems to you:


I don't like it, but I can't fix it

> The best I can do is help my children be prepared to be happy whether
> they're
> rich or not. And I can stand up to people I think are being unethical,
> whether it's in clubs or social groups, or on bulletin boards or e-mail
> loops.
>
>

Can you stand up to the person who is being unethical if that person is a
child?

Ethical-(greek ethos, character) 1. having to do with ethics; of or
conforming to moral standards.

Morals-1. dealing with or capable of distinguishing between right and wrong
2. of , teaching, or in accordance with the principles of right and wrong.

It's not easy, it's very hard, but it is simple. It is as simple as knowing
the difference between right and wrong. You may not be able to fix it, but
that does not mean that you cannot have an impact. As for standing up and
being ridiculed and ostracized. You are right, there's always a good chance
that a person will be ridiculed for doing what is right. Are you suggesting
that as adults, we must give in to adult bullies, rather than stand up to
child bullies?

I don't know how I can prepare my children to be happy in the world if they
are afraid of being ostracized, insulted, and ridiculed just for saying "I
don't think that behavior is right." (That's how the ultimate bullies---the
Nazi's, got away with mass murder)

By the way, my grandmother was a teacher, my Aunt was a professor, my mother
was a teacher, my brother-in-law is a teacher, both of my sisters have been
teachers, and I have been a substitute teacher and an art teacher. I have
tremendous respect for teachers who do what is right. I have a great deal of
disrespect for teachers who are paid to be in a position to help children,
and don't.

Sherry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

> I don't know how I can prepare my children to be happy in the
world if they
> are afraid of being ostracized, insulted, and ridiculed just for
saying "I
> don't think that behavior is right." (That's how the ultimate
bullies---the
> Nazi's, got away with mass murder)

Unfortunately, I believe that something like happened with the Nazis
could easily happen again in our society. Kids are being dumbed down
(read Gatto's books!) Kids are taught to conform and to obey all
authority without question. They are taught not to make waves. To
let the government "protect" them. The Germans shouldn't have
allowed Hitler to get away with daytime curfew laws, making the Jews
have special permits for owning businesses, not letting Jews vote,
and most importantly--they shouldn't have allowed him to take away
their guns! Hitler's men would have had a more difficult task in
rounding up the Jews if all households at least had a gun to defend
themselves. If all towns would have fought back with weapons. But
Hitler was a smart man. He knew he needed to take away rights one
at a time, not all at once. And he knew that he needed to disarm the
people.


> By the way, my grandmother was a teacher, my Aunt was a professor,
my mother
> was a teacher, my brother-in-law is a teacher, both of my sisters
have been
> teachers, and I have been a substitute teacher and an art teacher.
I have
> tremendous respect for teachers who do what is right. I have a
great deal of
> disrespect for teachers who are paid to be in a position to help
children,
> and don't.

It's not the teachers I have a problem with. I know some really nice
ones. What I have a problem with is the system itself.

Sheila

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In a message dated 7/1/02 10:49:35 PM, FoxgloveStudio@... writes:

<< Can you stand up to the person who is being unethical if that person is a
child? >>

Me personally?
Yes.

<<Are you suggesting
that as adults, we must give in to adult bullies, rather than stand up to
child bullies? >>

I'm not agreeing to anything here on broad terms because every case is
particular, but I myself am not averse to standing up to kids right in front
of their parents if the kids are insulting or hitting, and if the parents are
insufficiently interested in helping, that's fine.

<<I don't know how I can prepare my children to be happy in the world if
they
are afraid of being ostracized, insulted, and ridiculed just for saying "I
don't think that behavior is right.">>

If you don't prepare them to know that bullying will NEVER be eradicated they
will be supremely unhappy. Prepare them for moments, not a lifetime.
Because life is a series of moments. And in the absence of school, they will
rarely be forced to spend long unsupervised time in the company of ANY
person, ever.

<<I have tremendous respect for teachers who do what is right. I have a great
deal of
disrespect for teachers who are paid to be in a position to help children,
and don't.>>

They are set up to fail. I believe that Gardner's intelligences are spot on
about interpersonal relations, and MOST people aren't great at that. Some
are, and some of those are teachers. Be all the angry you want to be at the
tone deaf or the non-athletic. Be as disrespectful as you can stand to be
about people who just cannot spell or dance. But it's SCHOOL you should be
angry with, not with teachers who are among the billions who cannot change
human nature.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/2/02 7:09:03 AM Central Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:


> Unfortunately, I believe that something like happened with the Nazis
> could easily happen again in our society. Kids are being dumbed down
> (read Gatto's books!) Kids are taught to conform and to obey all
> authority without question. They are taught not to make waves. To
> let the government "protect" them.

I don't know if any one has read much on this, but one of the ways Hitler was
so efficient was he started his curfews and such on the German people. Way
before he ever started his campaign against Jewish people. He also supported
eugenics, and supported experiments on the German people to see if the
"undesirable" amongst the population could be weeded out and the "desirable"
bred in! The German people were so complacent, allowing their friends and
family who had mental problems, or birth defects to be taken away. They
didn't raise a stir when the doctors started measuring them with calipers and
recording head size, nose size, ear size... in their charts. All in the name
of helping the country build a better race. (The doctors were reporting on
the German people) They allowed all this to take place so it wasn't such a
*bad* thing (to them) when Hitler turned his hatred toward the Jews. The
rational was, he was just doing to the Jews what he had been doing to them
for years. Building a better race, weeding out all the big noses and large
ears, all the retarded and slow, the crazy and homosexual. It is always
easier to let someone else take over and do the dirty work. How sad.
~Nancy


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Sue

> I don't know if any one has read much on this, but one of the ways Hitler
was
> so efficient was he started his curfews and such on the German people. Way
> before he ever started his campaign against Jewish people.

I remember a discussion in high school about how Hitler was also so
efficient because after WW1 the treaty of Versailles was so harsh that
Germany wsa more or less crippled by it creating an environment whereby the
people of that nation became so depressed and without hope that when a man
"Hitler" came along and promised them hope and gave them hope - the people
blindly accepted.

He also supported
> eugenics, and supported experiments on the German people to see if the
> "undesirable" amongst the population could be weeded out and the
"desirable"
> bred in! The German people were so complacent, allowing their friends and
> family who had mental problems, or birth defects to be taken away. They
> didn't raise a stir when the doctors started measuring them with calipers
and
> recording head size, nose size, ear size... in their charts. All in the
name
> of helping the country build a better race.

Out of interest, did you know that (quote straight from a book) "Hitler's
longtime personal chauffeur was so tiny that blocks were put under his seat
so that he might see over the steering wheel. The Brownshirt leader who
replaced the murdered Ernst Rohm was one-eyed; Joseph Goebbels had a
clubbfoot; the official photograther was an alcoholic and had a deformed
back. Hitler's press manager, Max Amann, and his first treasurer was one
armed; Amann was also dwarflike. The assistant press chief was stone deaf.
Martin Bormann was alcoholic, Rudolf Hess paranoid, Hermann Goring a
morphine addict; Robert Ley, master of the labor camps, had a speech
defect....Hitlers entourage, was most unusual for its collection of freaks
in high places, even as othersphysically like them were sytematically
expunged in death camps."