[email protected]

Joyce,
I understand how you felt about a "forced" apology.
My point isn't that the child will feel sorry, but rather the recognition of
what was done wrong, taking ownership (with my help).,,, hopefully learning a
positive habit that will help in later years.
Too many today feel "I'm sorry" are the worst words to be used, as an
admitance of "wrong" when they really aren't "at fault".
We need more social skills taught not just when we feel like it.
My opinion...
Bj


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[email protected]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:16:47 EDT Bj4kids@... writes:
> Joyce,
> I understand how you felt about a "forced" apology.
> My point isn't that the child will feel sorry, but rather the
recognition of
> what was done wrong, taking ownership (with my help).,,, hopefully
learning a
> positive habit that will help in later years.

I wonder how this ties in with women (maybe some men do this, but I've
only seen women) who now feel they have to apologize and feel sorry for
*everything* that goes wrong, whether they had anything to do with it or
not. I catch myself doing this, although less often now that in the past.


> Too many today feel "I'm sorry" are the worst words to be used, as an
> admitance of "wrong" when they really aren't "at fault".

I think there's a difference between an apologetic "I'm sorry" and a
sympathetic "I'm sorry". Hypothetically speaking, if my kid forgot to
pack a snack for drama (and didn't ask for my help in doing it, and had
been doing it by herself for 2 weeks with no problems) and then came in
afterwards yelling because I didn't put a snack in her backpack and she
was really hungry... I wouldn't apologize. I might very well say
something like, "I'm sorry you were so hungry, it sounds like a hard
morning." but I wouldn't say, "I'm sorry I didn't pack a snack for you",
because that would be taking responsibility for a mistake that wasn't
mine.

OTOH, if I'd been packing the snack all along and had forgotten, I would
certainly take responsibility and apologize, because I would be at fault.


Either way, we'd probably end up making new plans to ensure that a snack
was packed, and that would be the most important part.

Dar

Tia Leschke

>Either way, we'd probably end up making new plans to ensure that a snack
>was packed, and that would be the most important part.

Yes, the important part is figuring out how to make the "bad" thing not
happen again. Sometimes that requires someone taking responsibility for a
mistake, sometimes not.

An apology can make a person feel better about what happened, but only if
it's sincere. You can force words, but you can't force sincerity.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Fetteroll

on 6/30/02 1:16 PM, Bj4kids@... at Bj4kids@... wrote:

> My point isn't that the child will feel sorry, but rather the recognition of
> what was done wrong, taking ownership (with my help).,,, hopefully learning a
> positive habit that will help in later years.

Understanding the dynamics of the problem is good but when it must be
followed by "I'm sorry" and "I accept your apology" (or whatever wording you
use) you are encouraging them to lie

> Too many today feel "I'm sorry" are the worst words to be used, as an
> admitance of "wrong" when they really aren't "at fault".

There's something *way* deeper involved than not having experienced the
ritual of I'm sorry/I accept your apology. It's adults modeling searching
for who was to blame rather than emphasizing the importance of identifying
the problem and seeking a solution. It's adults feeling they don't need to
say I'm sorry to kids when they've done something wrong. And it's families
that are disconnected: parents and children spending most of their time
apart from each other and needing to attend to family maintenance stuff when
they are together.

> We need more social skills taught not just when we feel like it.
> My opinion...

I've found that discussing what went wrong and modeling the skills I'd like
my daughter to have to be a lot more effective than training her to act out
the rituals. Learning that "I'm sorry" follows something that you've done
wrong is a lesson that takes a second to learn.

Joyce

Sue

> Understanding the dynamics of the problem is good but when it must be
> followed by "I'm sorry" and "I accept your apology" (or whatever wording
you
> use) you are encouraging them to lie
>

I totally agree with this. We have never made our son -31/2 yrs old say
sorry - but what we do do is tell him we are sorry if we are in the wrong or
if we haved placed him in a situation that he couldn't cope with - ie/ mummy
and daddy are sorry for taking you out when you are tired and don't want to
stay seated in the car seat for so long etc. What we have found now is that
he will say sorry to his 21month old sister if he accidently knocks her down
during play etc but if lashes out at her for what ever reason we will tell
him something like "If your sister upsets or hits you tell her to stop and
be gentle or come and get mummy or daddy to help you, we need to be gentle
with each other and we need to apologise for hurting each other when you are
ready" We will leave it at that - and off course speak to our dd but what we
have found is that at these times our ds will say stop Josie, be gentle or
else he will come and get us. If he does lash out at times (and there are
still lots of times of these as well) we find that after he has cooled down,
and on his own initiative he will be loving towards his sister and give her
a hug and a kiss - no sorry mentioned but I figured action speak louder than
words.

Sue

shellyrae00

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Sue" <werapfamily@o...> wrote:
> I totally agree with this. We have never made our son -31/2 yrs old
say
> sorry - but what we do do is tell him we are sorry if we are in the
wrong or
> if we haved placed him in a situation that he couldn't cope with -

I am in agreement with Sue, and other posters, about forced
apologies. I do want my children to have empathy and compassion, but
not at the expense of being insincere or untruthful.

My mother used to make my little brother and I kiss and make up if we
fought with each other. Well, there were times I would rather have
punched him one than kissed and made up!

On a semi-related note, Will, who's 20 months old (today!) just
learned the word sorry (pronounced saw-vee). And he says it all the
time, but his understanding of the word is a bit different than
ours ... he says saw-vee when he feels ***someone else*** should be
sorry for something. Like yesterday when I accidentally touched his
leg with the hot buckle from the car seat. "Ouch! Saw-vee! Saw-vee!",
he said. He was right, I was saw-vee!!!!

Shelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/1/2002 6:27:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> Too many today feel "I'm sorry" are the worst words to be used, as an
> admitance of "wrong" when they really aren't "at fault".
> We need more social skills taught not just when we feel like it.
>
I think that when you're FORCED to use those words with no meaning behind
them , you can certainly begin to feel that they ARE the worst words to be
used---that they ARE an admittance of wrong-doing or guilt. That's EXACTLY
what you'll get by forcing an apology---adults that say it without meaning
it. Or they'll avoid it altogether. If you're NOT at fault, but are made to
apologize anyway because an adult told you to...what do you expect?

Big problem with that last statement. That the social "skill" would be more
important to you than how the child ACTUALLY feels says a lot. Better to say
nothing and get over it in your own time. I've watched many children SAY "I'm
sorry", not mean it (lie), and go right back to being creeps. I'd rather see
a child say NOTHING, think about the friendship, and FEEL sorry---or
not---than to lie to make a teacher/parent feel that the child is learning a
social skill.

We apologize regularly to the boys if we've wronged them. They do the same
for us. The boys have never been forced to apologize, but they MEAN it when
they say it. They're not lying to satisfy me or their dad---or to develop a
social skill. They apologize because, in their hearts, they're sorry.

Kelly


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/11/03 7:41:58 AM, shyrley.williams@... writes:

<< This is something I've been pondering cos someone told me I should 'make'
my kids apologise even when they don't mean it. Which I found silly. The
adult they are apologising tooo knows they don't mean
it and the child feels resentful saying words when they don't feel sorry.
It's all pretend.
>>

Well there's something homeschooled kids would learn if they were at school.
How to manage a forced apology.

They can take the following forms:

"I'm sorry you got mad."
"I'm sorry you were in the way when I threw that."
"I'm sorry I didn't just graze you."
"I'm *SORRY*" (said in the tone of voice that indicates they mean to say "I
HATE you!!!!!")
"I'm sorry I got caught."

That last one is only for the bravest of kids in school offices, but I've
heard it. And technically, it's "sorry."

Sandra

Sorcha

And for adults, there's always, "I'm sorry you got offended by that" and
"I'm sorry you chose to let that make you angry." Or "I'm sorry you
allowed that to hurt your feelings."

Sorcha


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