video games, role play games
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/02 5:51:28 AM, FoxgloveStudio@... writes:
<< I personally can't imagine what is so attractive about video games, and
would never have the patience to do something so repetitive. >>
There's something in the challenge and the doing, and many of the more
repetitive are math puzzles. My husband likes Minesweeper. You find bombs
without setting them off. You know how many but you don't know where they
are until you mathematically determine it. Holly and Keith are on a quest to
figure out whether Holly's analysis of how the program works is right.
Holly's ten. Keith's a real professonional math-using engineer. Holly says
the first move will never be a bomb. Keith hadn't thought of that, and
they're playing with that theory.
I called Keith at work, and he said:
"Minesweeper involves seeing pattern possibilities based on the exposed
information. It's about permutations.
When you have one number exposed and everything else around it is not exposed
there are eight possible connecting blocks, and the number will tell you
there are two bombs, or four bombs, and you figure out all the permutations.
Sometimes it is just guessing. Sometimes it's not. The more information
you're working with, the more you can resolve the problem.
"It's deductive reasoning based on patterns."
When Keith plays, he's taking a break from physical activity. He's zoning
out, in a way, but while he's doing a mathematical puzzle (which is relaxing
for him), he can think about all KINDS of things, and other people will leave
him alone because he's "concentrating."
When Holly plays and discusses her thoughts with Keith, she's doing math with
a professional mathematician. Not many ten year olds get to do that!
Meanwhile, I might be playing Tetris Plus on the Mac in the other room while
I'm on the phone talking to my sister or a friend. I like it because it's
fast. I like it because it involves color and patterns and srategies unlike
what I use in my regular days.
<<On the other
hand, I can see the attraction to some of the role playing games. In the case
of role playing games though, I can't see spending so much time and effort in
a fantasy world, when that same amount of effort expended in real life, might
lead to real accomplishments in the real world. >>
Is reading a novel "real life"?
Is reading poetry real accomplishment?
Going to plays?
Reading literature is HUGELY prized by academia.
If a kid read Oliver Twist (which I read three times before I was out of my
teens) it's not as much reading and thought as my own boys have expended in
role playing games already, and they're 13 and 15. Reading the cards, the
guide books, the rule books, the related novels, not just discussing or
thinking about the behavior of different Japanese clans for L5R but acting
from that place is more "literary analysis" than most kids get in the best
high schools. It's just different "literature."
What we called plot they call "story line."
And it's not passive, like reading a book, but they can make decisions that
affect other people's character.
Those who have played a lot of role playing games will gain the kinds of
experiences useful in being writers, lawyers, analysts of various kinds,
historians (what happened and how and why?)... Why not get those skills in
a way that seems like "just playing"?
As to repetitive actions and productivity...
Crocheting afghans. WHY do people do that?
You can buy an afghan at a thrift store for $8. You can't even buy the yarn
to make one for that much. There are afghans enough in the world. Why make
more?
Knitting sweaters. Why?
Socks? Insane, since they're available for a dollar a pair.
Yet people justify those things on the basis of relaxation, artistic
expression, labors of love, something to do with their hands while they watch
movies or listen to music or talk with people.
Why is it virtue for grown women, but "wastefulness" if it's boys?
I think the prejudice against kids is one of the first things unschoolers
should dump. It helps a lot to know that kids LIKE repetition, the like to
sing songs over and over, to see the same cartoon more than once, to play a
game again even though they beat it.
Sandra
<< I personally can't imagine what is so attractive about video games, and
would never have the patience to do something so repetitive. >>
There's something in the challenge and the doing, and many of the more
repetitive are math puzzles. My husband likes Minesweeper. You find bombs
without setting them off. You know how many but you don't know where they
are until you mathematically determine it. Holly and Keith are on a quest to
figure out whether Holly's analysis of how the program works is right.
Holly's ten. Keith's a real professonional math-using engineer. Holly says
the first move will never be a bomb. Keith hadn't thought of that, and
they're playing with that theory.
I called Keith at work, and he said:
"Minesweeper involves seeing pattern possibilities based on the exposed
information. It's about permutations.
When you have one number exposed and everything else around it is not exposed
there are eight possible connecting blocks, and the number will tell you
there are two bombs, or four bombs, and you figure out all the permutations.
Sometimes it is just guessing. Sometimes it's not. The more information
you're working with, the more you can resolve the problem.
"It's deductive reasoning based on patterns."
When Keith plays, he's taking a break from physical activity. He's zoning
out, in a way, but while he's doing a mathematical puzzle (which is relaxing
for him), he can think about all KINDS of things, and other people will leave
him alone because he's "concentrating."
When Holly plays and discusses her thoughts with Keith, she's doing math with
a professional mathematician. Not many ten year olds get to do that!
Meanwhile, I might be playing Tetris Plus on the Mac in the other room while
I'm on the phone talking to my sister or a friend. I like it because it's
fast. I like it because it involves color and patterns and srategies unlike
what I use in my regular days.
<<On the other
hand, I can see the attraction to some of the role playing games. In the case
of role playing games though, I can't see spending so much time and effort in
a fantasy world, when that same amount of effort expended in real life, might
lead to real accomplishments in the real world. >>
Is reading a novel "real life"?
Is reading poetry real accomplishment?
Going to plays?
Reading literature is HUGELY prized by academia.
If a kid read Oliver Twist (which I read three times before I was out of my
teens) it's not as much reading and thought as my own boys have expended in
role playing games already, and they're 13 and 15. Reading the cards, the
guide books, the rule books, the related novels, not just discussing or
thinking about the behavior of different Japanese clans for L5R but acting
from that place is more "literary analysis" than most kids get in the best
high schools. It's just different "literature."
What we called plot they call "story line."
And it's not passive, like reading a book, but they can make decisions that
affect other people's character.
Those who have played a lot of role playing games will gain the kinds of
experiences useful in being writers, lawyers, analysts of various kinds,
historians (what happened and how and why?)... Why not get those skills in
a way that seems like "just playing"?
As to repetitive actions and productivity...
Crocheting afghans. WHY do people do that?
You can buy an afghan at a thrift store for $8. You can't even buy the yarn
to make one for that much. There are afghans enough in the world. Why make
more?
Knitting sweaters. Why?
Socks? Insane, since they're available for a dollar a pair.
Yet people justify those things on the basis of relaxation, artistic
expression, labors of love, something to do with their hands while they watch
movies or listen to music or talk with people.
Why is it virtue for grown women, but "wastefulness" if it's boys?
I think the prejudice against kids is one of the first things unschoolers
should dump. It helps a lot to know that kids LIKE repetition, the like to
sing songs over and over, to see the same cartoon more than once, to play a
game again even though they beat it.
Sandra
Betsy
** Crocheting afghans. WHY do people do that?
You can buy an afghan at a thrift store for $8. You can't even buy the
yarn
to make one for that much. There are afghans enough in the world. Why
make
more? **
One of my favorite hobbies is cutting perfectly good fabric into little
pieces and then sewing it back together again in geometric patterns. It
sounds pretty silly when I describe it like that. And I'm not doing it
to keep anyone warm at night.
Betsy
You can buy an afghan at a thrift store for $8. You can't even buy the
yarn
to make one for that much. There are afghans enough in the world. Why
make
more? **
One of my favorite hobbies is cutting perfectly good fabric into little
pieces and then sewing it back together again in geometric patterns. It
sounds pretty silly when I describe it like that. And I'm not doing it
to keep anyone warm at night.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/02 11:38:01 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<<
One of my favorite hobbies is cutting perfectly good fabric into little
pieces and then sewing it back together again in geometric patterns. >>
Well that's kind of like Tetris!
<<
One of my favorite hobbies is cutting perfectly good fabric into little
pieces and then sewing it back together again in geometric patterns. >>
Well that's kind of like Tetris!
Bill and Diane
And then there are the really strange people who pay the big bucks for little peices of $2.77/yard fabric that's been cut into little
pieces and sewn back together again...WAY more than $2.77/yard for those!
:-) Diane
pieces and sewn back together again...WAY more than $2.77/yard for those!
:-) Diane
>
> One of my favorite hobbies is cutting perfectly good fabric into little
> pieces and then sewing it back together again in geometric patterns.