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I think apologies are important, but ther eis a sort of forced apology which
is worse than worthless--it's a bigger insult than what went before, and many
parents accept it as "well he apologized" because they demanded an action and
the requirement was (sufficiently) fulfilled. Those apologies so often heard
in school counselors' offices:

I'm sorry you made me mad.
I'm sorry you got mad.
I'm sorry I didn't wait until later.
[implication: I wish I had waited until nobody was looking to hit you]
I'm sorry we got in a fight.

When the kid is clearly in the wrong, those above are insulting to the victim.

And even REAL apologies of a decent sort can be wrong.

Consider these:

I'm sorry I hit you.
I should have thought of a better thing to do or say.
I shouldn't have called for help, I should have figured out how to handle it
on my own.

When the kid is NOT so clearly in the wrong (or was clearly justified in his
anger) then it's humiliting for the kid who is made to apologize. He's being
blamed for an incident he didn't initiate, and blamed for his
best-at-the-moment response.

"It takes two" is usually said by the parent of the offender. It's lame
defense of lack of social skills, or of bullying.

Forcing things like these would be kinda like forcing someone who had just
prevented her own date rape to apologize to the boy/man for having slapped
him, or screamed, or messing up his car on the way out.

There are some kids who are Eddie Haskell kids (good reference for those old
enough for Leave it to Beaver, and I don't have an example for those
younger). To the appearance from the parental angle, they are great. When
no parent is looking they are quietly horrible to younger kids. When the
adults show up, they're the best kid in the room--personable, cooperative...
and they know from experience that if one of the little kids screams or
retaliates that the parents will be horrified that their child was rude to so
polite a guest.

So each situation is different. Coaching your own kid is great. Setting a
boundary for other people's kids that you don't want them to cross is okay
too, though.

Yesterday Holly just left without saying goodbye when she was visiting the
neighbors. The little girl's uncle (her primary caregiver) was becoming
frustrated and irritable, and verbally abusive, and bullying, and
insensitive. Not bad, maybe, for a childless younger man who really does put
a LOT of time toward his more-irresponsible brother's child (mother is
somewhere else entirely; perhaps incarcerated? because it's not discussed at
all). But Holly's not used to it and didn't want to be part of it or even
witness his behavior toward the other little girl.

That's the third time over the years that Holly has had a bad incident at
that house. Not physically abusive, but stuff that to her seems insane.
(To me, having grown up in the old traditional American way, it's just par
for the average course.)

I wouldn't dream of making her apologize for turning and going home.

We talked about it a lot. I told her it would have been totally fine for her
to say "She doesn't understand. Say it a different way." Or "She has
sunscreen in her eye, so she really needs a towel right now." or "You
shouldn't talk to her that way."

I told her she didn't HAVE to stand up to adults she thought were being
awful, but if she did it might help, and if they got angry that her dad and I
would totally defend her.

The neighbor will eventually be over to apologize. I expect his apology will
be something like "I'm sorry Holly got scared the other day" instead of "I'm
sorry I was hung over and abusive." Or he'll say "I'm sorry Briann did
something the other day to make Holly leave."

And then it will be my turn to speak.

Sandra

shellyrae00

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> And then it will be my turn to speak.

Sandra, I just read this post above, and the one about the neighbor
across the fence whom you told to be nice to your children, and
thought about some other things that you've posted, and every time I
read one of your posts like this, I think that you and my husband
would make a great team.

He considers it his personal crusade to right the wrongs, and curses
those who don't have the courage or desire to speak up and do the
same. He flags down cars driving too fast down our residential street
and explains to them that we have children who are entitled to be
safe on their own street without people endangering their lives
careening down the street (mind you, he's 5'5" and often flags down
men twice his size ... while the neighbor across the street, who is
huge, runs in his house for cover), and he stops older children who
are walking down the street cursing and talks to them about how
littler children shouldn't have to hear such angry talk, and he
breaks up fights on the street and sticks up for the picked-upon when
the high school (just two blocks from our house) lets out in the
afternoon. So far no one's clobbered him, and I'm proud of him for
standing up for what's right.

I'm glad you do the same in your neighborhood.

Shelly

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In a message dated 6/28/02 11:37:16 AM, shellyrae00@... writes:

<< I just read this post above, and the one about the neighbor
across the fence whom you told to be nice to your children, >>

I told her to be nice to HER children! <g>

And, btw, last night there were two police cars in front of their house, and
one of the little kids talking to a policemen. EEEP! I can't see the street
in front of their house from here at all, we're backed up to one another, but
someone who drove to my house told me about it.

Your husband DOES sound like me, Shelly! I was driving one day far from my
house and two boys shoved another one into the street, just to bully and
scare him. I pulled up, rolled down my window and said "STOP IT." "Shut
up," said the bully. "GO HOME" I said, and I would have followed him home
myself if he had said any more.

Someday I might get shot for it, but I'd rather be shot for defending someone
innocent than to hide in my house while HE gets shot.

Sandra

shellyrae00

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> << I just read this post above, and the one about the neighbor
> across the fence whom you told to be nice to your children, >>
>
> I told her to be nice to HER children! <g>

Woops, I knew that's what you said ... typo :)

> And, btw, last night there were two police cars in front of their
house, and
> one of the little kids talking to a policemen. EEEP! I can't see
the street
> in front of their house from here at all, we're backed up to one
another, but
> someone who drove to my house told me about it.

I hope her children are safe. It makes me so sad to see children in
that kind of situation. Well, that's an understatement. I viscerally
FEEL pain for them, having experienced an abusive childhood myself.


> Someday I might get shot for it, but I'd rather be shot for
defending someone
> than to hide in my house while HE gets shot.

I admire his -- and your -- courage. Sometimes when he confronts
someone like that, my heart just pounds. I'm not as brave as he,
although I still do jump in when I see something happening. The
difference is, my heart pounds and my hands shake. I must appear
somewhat less formidable as a result, eh?!

Shelly

[email protected]

"I was driving one day far from my
house and two boys shoved another one into the street, just to bully and
scare him. I pulled up, rolled down my window and said "STOP IT." "Shut
up," said the bully. "GO HOME" I said, and I would have followed him home
myself if he had said any more.

Someday I might get shot for it, but I'd rather be shot for defending someone

innocent than to hide in my house while HE gets shot."

Dear Sandra,

I wish there were 10 million more people with the bravery to speak up when
they see something bad going on. Imagine the impact that would have on the
world.

Sherry

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your husband sounds alot like me!!! i can't stand to see someone being taken
advantage. we have a woman in our neighborhood who has done nothing but try
to cause everyone trouble. her father happenes to be a police offer. after
many untrue statements had been made and dss called on a family across the
street i had a conversation with this officer and told him that we all had
rights and he and his daughter were slandering everyone she didn't like.
nobody else would do it and i felt that someone had to tell these people to
talk to the peole rather than make calls to officals. note i am only 4;10
and this man was at least 6'. i am now our neighborhood spoksperson,

tina


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