Unschoolers as Parents
[email protected]
I have been reading this list for a while. I don't know if I am an
unschooler. I certainly find myself at home with the ethical and moral
assumptions of most unschoolers. Practically speaking, it is clear that my
own children thrive with self-directed learning.
I hesitate, however, on these issues of parenting. I would ask questions,
not about the power struggles of socks and clean rooms, but about the moral
habits of a child and the parent's role in that.
My question is illustrated my my experience with one of the few "real"
unschoolers I have met. We had become friends with this family, meeting
about once a week to hang out and play for about 6 months. Then we went on
to agree that the moms would take turns taking a few hours off while all the
other kids were with the other two moms. Six weeks into this, it fell apart
when I returned to find that while the two moms were on the porch, a big 11
yr old had gotten angry at the younger kids and my 7 yr old had been curled
up in the fetal position while this older girl pummeled her with her fists.
From all accounts it was very violent.
There were many issues in this for me, mostly that I should have never left
them in the first place, but for this list I am interested in the other mom's
response to her own daughter's behaviour.
Evidently, after the moms came in and things settled down, everyone sat in a
circle and each person went around and vented their feelings. When she spoke
to me later the mom apologized that her daughter hit my daughter, but also
mentioned that benefit of learning not to push buttons that trigger an angry
response in other people. It was only later, in talking to my other kids
that I realized how violent the scene was.
There was a natural consequence for this 11 yr old girl. She and her family
have never been to our house again(something she was really disappointed with
as we have a great art room). In the subsequent months, she was sheepish and
I guess embarassed whenever our paths crossed. Of course, it is a
consequence for the whole family as well, since it is just not feasible to
arrange any play dates for the younger kids as well.
I fault the other mom for not being more responsible and not being closer to
stop it sooner but that is an aside.
My unschooling question, though, is shouldn't the parent step in sooner in
the life of an angry child with contrived consequences, that is "punishment",
to save the natural consequences that could follow down the road which are
more damaging and more permanent. Of course, this is not to the exclusion of
thought and dialogue and hopefully relief about the nature of the anger or
as an ego-type exercise for the parent with an "I'll show you!" attitude.
Perhaps a contrived consequence could cause a child not to act in a moment of
anger giving them a few seconds to think rationally before they make mistakes
with increasing consequences.
It seems to me an abdication of parental responsibility to address a harmful
behaviour by having everyone express their feelings and then let the
consequences fall as they may. Where (or where not) is an unschooling
philosophy in this? If a child is secure of the good will of a parent isn't
is more kind when a 5 or 6 yr old hits someone else to say, you sit here
in this chair for this time because you did this which is not allowed, than
to end up with an 11 yr old making tracks which will be difficult for her to
erase later on.
I also wondered along similar lines when someone suggested that the child who
wouldn't stop at the signs be shown pictures or stories of dead children.
That solution struck me as almost cruel compared to something like, I will
stop at the corners because my mom says it dangerous if I don't she won't
allow me to have a bike . In the context of a healthy relationship with a
parent, couldn't that be ok? (Granted the tone of that story indicated to
me some separate issues). Seems that part of being a parent is to be a
shield at least for a few short years that allows children some innocence and
simplicity and maybe that involves playing a bit of "god" in their life. I
am wondering.
Thanks for your thoughts. Melissa
unschooler. I certainly find myself at home with the ethical and moral
assumptions of most unschoolers. Practically speaking, it is clear that my
own children thrive with self-directed learning.
I hesitate, however, on these issues of parenting. I would ask questions,
not about the power struggles of socks and clean rooms, but about the moral
habits of a child and the parent's role in that.
My question is illustrated my my experience with one of the few "real"
unschoolers I have met. We had become friends with this family, meeting
about once a week to hang out and play for about 6 months. Then we went on
to agree that the moms would take turns taking a few hours off while all the
other kids were with the other two moms. Six weeks into this, it fell apart
when I returned to find that while the two moms were on the porch, a big 11
yr old had gotten angry at the younger kids and my 7 yr old had been curled
up in the fetal position while this older girl pummeled her with her fists.
From all accounts it was very violent.
There were many issues in this for me, mostly that I should have never left
them in the first place, but for this list I am interested in the other mom's
response to her own daughter's behaviour.
Evidently, after the moms came in and things settled down, everyone sat in a
circle and each person went around and vented their feelings. When she spoke
to me later the mom apologized that her daughter hit my daughter, but also
mentioned that benefit of learning not to push buttons that trigger an angry
response in other people. It was only later, in talking to my other kids
that I realized how violent the scene was.
There was a natural consequence for this 11 yr old girl. She and her family
have never been to our house again(something she was really disappointed with
as we have a great art room). In the subsequent months, she was sheepish and
I guess embarassed whenever our paths crossed. Of course, it is a
consequence for the whole family as well, since it is just not feasible to
arrange any play dates for the younger kids as well.
I fault the other mom for not being more responsible and not being closer to
stop it sooner but that is an aside.
My unschooling question, though, is shouldn't the parent step in sooner in
the life of an angry child with contrived consequences, that is "punishment",
to save the natural consequences that could follow down the road which are
more damaging and more permanent. Of course, this is not to the exclusion of
thought and dialogue and hopefully relief about the nature of the anger or
as an ego-type exercise for the parent with an "I'll show you!" attitude.
Perhaps a contrived consequence could cause a child not to act in a moment of
anger giving them a few seconds to think rationally before they make mistakes
with increasing consequences.
It seems to me an abdication of parental responsibility to address a harmful
behaviour by having everyone express their feelings and then let the
consequences fall as they may. Where (or where not) is an unschooling
philosophy in this? If a child is secure of the good will of a parent isn't
is more kind when a 5 or 6 yr old hits someone else to say, you sit here
in this chair for this time because you did this which is not allowed, than
to end up with an 11 yr old making tracks which will be difficult for her to
erase later on.
I also wondered along similar lines when someone suggested that the child who
wouldn't stop at the signs be shown pictures or stories of dead children.
That solution struck me as almost cruel compared to something like, I will
stop at the corners because my mom says it dangerous if I don't she won't
allow me to have a bike . In the context of a healthy relationship with a
parent, couldn't that be ok? (Granted the tone of that story indicated to
me some separate issues). Seems that part of being a parent is to be a
shield at least for a few short years that allows children some innocence and
simplicity and maybe that involves playing a bit of "god" in their life. I
am wondering.
Thanks for your thoughts. Melissa
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/27/02 9:15:15 AM, MLeeHolloway@... writes:
<< I fault the other mom for not being more responsible and not being closer
to
stop it sooner but that is an aside. >>
I think that's central to your whole issue, not an aside at all.
<<My unschooling question, though, is shouldn't the parent step in sooner in
the life of an angry child with contrived consequences, that is "punishment",
to save the natural consequences that could follow down the road which are
more damaging and more permanent. >>
Yes.
I have some terrible neighbors behind us. I stood in the yard yesterday and
yelled at the big fence (we can't see each other--they have a pool and their
whole yard is enclosed by a high wood fence) "STOP IT!!!! Stop yelling!"
The mom was screaming at the kids and the kids were (fearfully, but still)
yelling back. They paused and continued. It was scary. They're bigtime
whackers, and I didn't want to hear it get to that so I yelled again, "DON'T
YELL!"
Quiet.
Mom yells back: "Why shouldn't we yell?"
I said, "Be nice to them!"
Well within five minutes she was yelling at one of the older boys (10?) who
was picking on a younger boy, who's five or six. She was telling him to
leave him alone. The little boy was crying. The older one said "Leave us
alone. Why don't you let us fight our own battles?"
He was obviously quoting someone there. I'm guessing the dad has said "Let
them fight their own battles.
The loser in all of that was the littler boy.
I wish they weren't the soundtrack for our back yard so much. My kids are
shocked by it.
My kids have a TON of freedom, but they don't have the freedom to be mean or
to use humor that hurts other people.
<<Perhaps a contrived consequence could cause a child not to act in a moment
of
anger ...>>
It's not a contrived consequence for a parent to say "Stop it," and then talk
to the child about WHY what they were doing is no good.
<<It seems to me an abdication of parental responsibility to address a
harmful
behaviour by having everyone express their feelings and then let the
consequences fall as they may. .>>
I don't like those kinds of little "airing it" meetings. They're contrived
"kits" for people without real social skills, in my experience, used most
often by people who are extremely non-confrontational, but in a formal,
scheduled situation can say one or two things IF the others are constrained
to follow the formal rules too.
<< If a child is secure of the good will of a parent isn't
is more kind when a 5 or 6 yr old hits someone else to say, you sit here
in this chair for this time because you did this which is not allowed, than
to end up with an 11 yr old making tracks which will be difficult for her to
erase later on.>>
Those aren't the only two choices at all.
<< I will stop at the corners because my mom says it dangerous if I don't
she won't
allow me to have a bike . In the context of a healthy relationship with a
parent, couldn't that be ok? >>
If the parent can't think of any way to influence a child outside of
punishment, the relationship could be healthier. Those kinds of punishments
say "I own you and I own all your stuff."
Sandra
<< I fault the other mom for not being more responsible and not being closer
to
stop it sooner but that is an aside. >>
I think that's central to your whole issue, not an aside at all.
<<My unschooling question, though, is shouldn't the parent step in sooner in
the life of an angry child with contrived consequences, that is "punishment",
to save the natural consequences that could follow down the road which are
more damaging and more permanent. >>
Yes.
I have some terrible neighbors behind us. I stood in the yard yesterday and
yelled at the big fence (we can't see each other--they have a pool and their
whole yard is enclosed by a high wood fence) "STOP IT!!!! Stop yelling!"
The mom was screaming at the kids and the kids were (fearfully, but still)
yelling back. They paused and continued. It was scary. They're bigtime
whackers, and I didn't want to hear it get to that so I yelled again, "DON'T
YELL!"
Quiet.
Mom yells back: "Why shouldn't we yell?"
I said, "Be nice to them!"
Well within five minutes she was yelling at one of the older boys (10?) who
was picking on a younger boy, who's five or six. She was telling him to
leave him alone. The little boy was crying. The older one said "Leave us
alone. Why don't you let us fight our own battles?"
He was obviously quoting someone there. I'm guessing the dad has said "Let
them fight their own battles.
The loser in all of that was the littler boy.
I wish they weren't the soundtrack for our back yard so much. My kids are
shocked by it.
My kids have a TON of freedom, but they don't have the freedom to be mean or
to use humor that hurts other people.
<<Perhaps a contrived consequence could cause a child not to act in a moment
of
anger ...>>
It's not a contrived consequence for a parent to say "Stop it," and then talk
to the child about WHY what they were doing is no good.
<<It seems to me an abdication of parental responsibility to address a
harmful
behaviour by having everyone express their feelings and then let the
consequences fall as they may. .>>
I don't like those kinds of little "airing it" meetings. They're contrived
"kits" for people without real social skills, in my experience, used most
often by people who are extremely non-confrontational, but in a formal,
scheduled situation can say one or two things IF the others are constrained
to follow the formal rules too.
<< If a child is secure of the good will of a parent isn't
is more kind when a 5 or 6 yr old hits someone else to say, you sit here
in this chair for this time because you did this which is not allowed, than
to end up with an 11 yr old making tracks which will be difficult for her to
erase later on.>>
Those aren't the only two choices at all.
<< I will stop at the corners because my mom says it dangerous if I don't
she won't
allow me to have a bike . In the context of a healthy relationship with a
parent, couldn't that be ok? >>
If the parent can't think of any way to influence a child outside of
punishment, the relationship could be healthier. Those kinds of punishments
say "I own you and I own all your stuff."
Sandra
diamond_h2o
Thanks for posting
AprilWells
yes well instead of telling who posted this that there are more choices,
why don't you elaborate a little. I mean i would love t hear what other
choices you think there are that way when other situations come up i can
use that model of choices in dealing with the new situation.
April
why don't you elaborate a little. I mean i would love t hear what other
choices you think there are that way when other situations come up i can
use that model of choices in dealing with the new situation.
April
> << If a child is secure of the good will of a parent isn't
> is more kind when a 5 or 6 yr old hits someone else to say, you sit
> here
> in this chair for this time because you did this which is not allowed,
> than
> to end up with an 11 yr old making tracks which will be difficult for
> her to
> erase later on.>>
>
> Those aren't the only two choices at all.
amy8275
-(snip)-- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
besides punish her. What else could I do? I am a mother of a 3year
old, and my parents were bad role models. I am trying to raise her
kinder and gentler than they did. I like how some of you talk about
parenting, and I want to do better. I don't want to be mean or impose
my will on her. I know you wouldn't agree with some of my parenting,
but I don't always like it myself. That is why I am trying to learn a
better way. Unschooling(to me) isn't about teaching a child between 6
and 18. It is about parenting my child from infancy so the grow up to
be an intelligent and considerate adult. With out sending my child
away for 6 hours a day, and with out trying to make her into a little
me.
> << If a child is secure of the good will of a parent isn'tsit here
> is more kind when a 5 or 6 yr old hits someone else to say, you
> in this chair for this time because you did this which is notallowed, than
> to end up with an 11 yr old making tracks which will be difficultfor her to
> erase later on.>>When my child hits an other child I don't know what else to do
>
> Those aren't the only two choices at all.
besides punish her. What else could I do? I am a mother of a 3year
old, and my parents were bad role models. I am trying to raise her
kinder and gentler than they did. I like how some of you talk about
parenting, and I want to do better. I don't want to be mean or impose
my will on her. I know you wouldn't agree with some of my parenting,
but I don't always like it myself. That is why I am trying to learn a
better way. Unschooling(to me) isn't about teaching a child between 6
and 18. It is about parenting my child from infancy so the grow up to
be an intelligent and considerate adult. With out sending my child
away for 6 hours a day, and with out trying to make her into a little
me.
[email protected]
<< yes well instead of telling who posted this that there are more choices,
why don't you elaborate a little. >>
"Yes well" is antagonistic and critical, right from the beginning.
There are 600+ people on this list, most just reading and not posting.
There are new people almost every single day.
"Yes well" many of us have been elaborating A LOT for many, many years.
Free help is good to get sometimes. Insulting those who offer it is uncool.
Thousands of good ideas are available at www.unschooling.com
and by following links from there
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
and following those links which have other links.
You don't have to wait for a good answer to come by on this list. This
shouldn't be anyone's sole and exclusive window on unschooling any more than
you would expect your child to learn everything about history from one book.
There are a hundred things to do when a child hits another child.
It is a false choice to say either the parents sets the child in a chair or
the child does damage to her own relationships and chances.
If a child is hitting, there are various forms and degrees of
removal
distraction
modelling (act the way you want the kids to act)
picking the child up and comforting her, and find out whether she's hungry,
or sleepy, or whether when the mom wasn't looking the other child was
antagonistic (it happens)
giving the angry child a chance to express herself to the parent while the
child is still listening, so the other child has a chance for a rebuttal (not
applicable in non-verbal toddlers)
changing the venue of the activities--if they're outside, bring them in and
give them juice; if they're inside, take them out to the swings or show them
something neat you just found.
Being mean to kids just won't make them nicer people.
Sandra
why don't you elaborate a little. >>
"Yes well" is antagonistic and critical, right from the beginning.
There are 600+ people on this list, most just reading and not posting.
There are new people almost every single day.
"Yes well" many of us have been elaborating A LOT for many, many years.
Free help is good to get sometimes. Insulting those who offer it is uncool.
Thousands of good ideas are available at www.unschooling.com
and by following links from there
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
and following those links which have other links.
You don't have to wait for a good answer to come by on this list. This
shouldn't be anyone's sole and exclusive window on unschooling any more than
you would expect your child to learn everything about history from one book.
There are a hundred things to do when a child hits another child.
It is a false choice to say either the parents sets the child in a chair or
the child does damage to her own relationships and chances.
If a child is hitting, there are various forms and degrees of
removal
distraction
modelling (act the way you want the kids to act)
picking the child up and comforting her, and find out whether she's hungry,
or sleepy, or whether when the mom wasn't looking the other child was
antagonistic (it happens)
giving the angry child a chance to express herself to the parent while the
child is still listening, so the other child has a chance for a rebuttal (not
applicable in non-verbal toddlers)
changing the venue of the activities--if they're outside, bring them in and
give them juice; if they're inside, take them out to the swings or show them
something neat you just found.
Being mean to kids just won't make them nicer people.
Sandra
Sarah Carothers
Amy, you *could* join our new list where we're working to keep it a friendly place. Join us at
http://theunschoolingforum.sytes.net (that's our website.. follow the links to the email list).
We welcome all unschoolers... the old and the new just testing the waters.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 06/27/2002 7:00:18 PM
~Visit The Unschooling Forum Website & Discussion Boards~
http://theunschoolingforum.sytes.net (that's our website.. follow the links to the email list).
We welcome all unschoolers... the old and the new just testing the waters.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 06/27/2002 7:00:18 PM
~Visit The Unschooling Forum Website & Discussion Boards~
On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:51:54 EDT, SandraDodd@... wrote:
}You don't have to wait for a good answer to come by on this list.
}This
}shouldn't be anyone's sole and exclusive window on unschooling any
}more
}than
}you would expect your child to learn everything about history from
}one
}book.
}
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diamond_h2o
Can this amy join the new list too? I belong to alot of unschooling
lists and this is the only one I belong to where people are put
down for their opinions.
lists and this is the only one I belong to where people are put
down for their opinions.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Sarah Carothers <puddles@t...> wrote:
> Amy, you *could* join our new list where we're working to keep it a
friendly place. Join us at
> http://theunschoolingforum.sytes.net (that's our website.. follow
the links to the email list).
> We welcome all unschoolers... the old and the new just testing the
waters.
> --
>
Julia Morgan PAL Toys
One thing which had struck me about homeschooled children was how, by and large, they were so nice and well mannered. Now that I have decided to homeschool my kids, I wonder what to do about a little girl 6 1/2 at our homeschooling park day who is mostly just verbally mean to my almost-5yo son. She also seems to be able to rabble-rouse otherwise nice girls to chime in with her when she yells "Go away!" or "I hate that boy!" at the poor kid. Admittedly, he is not particularly adept, socially. He will tend to go near a group of (usually) girls who are playing and he kind of stands there. I think he expects them to say, "Hey, wanna play with us?" I think his standing there tongue-tied sets this little girl off. Now he doesn't have to do anything and she harangues him. She calls him stupid and other names. Her mom stands by doing nothing which infuriates me.
I have suggested that he play with someone else, or look for one person at a time to play with. I coach him on how to approach kids he wants to play with. I think he finds it a little interesting how this mean girl is, so he tends to stick around for the punishment from her.
I wish her mom would tell her not to be so hurtful. One of the reasons I wanted to avoid the school world for my kids was so that they would avoid this sort of thing.
Any suggestions?
Julia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have suggested that he play with someone else, or look for one person at a time to play with. I coach him on how to approach kids he wants to play with. I think he finds it a little interesting how this mean girl is, so he tends to stick around for the punishment from her.
I wish her mom would tell her not to be so hurtful. One of the reasons I wanted to avoid the school world for my kids was so that they would avoid this sort of thing.
Any suggestions?
Julia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AprilWells
I didn't mean to insult. I am sorry I seemed antagonistic. I get that
way after a day of holding my precious whiny baby. Please forgive.
April
SandraDodd@... wrote:
way after a day of holding my precious whiny baby. Please forgive.
April
SandraDodd@... wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> << yes well instead of telling who posted this that there are more
> choices,
> why don't you elaborate a little. >>
>
>
> "Yes well" is antagonistic and critical, right from the beginning.
>
> There are 600+ people on this list, most just reading and not posting.
> There are new people almost every single day.
>
> "Yes well" many of us have been elaborating A LOT for many, many years.
>
> Free help is good to get sometimes. Insulting those who offer it is
> uncool.
>
> Thousands of good ideas are available at www.unschooling.com
> and by following links from there
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
> and following those links which have other links.
>
> You don't have to wait for a good answer to come by on this list. This
> shouldn't be anyone's sole and exclusive window on unschooling any
> more than
> you would expect your child to learn everything about history from one
> book.
>
>
>
> There are a hundred things to do when a child hits another child.
> It is a false choice to say either the parents sets the child in a
> chair or
> the child does damage to her own relationships and chances.
>
> If a child is hitting, there are various forms and degrees of
>
> removal
>
> distraction
>
> modelling (act the way you want the kids to act)
>
> picking the child up and comforting her, and find out whether she's
> hungry,
> or sleepy, or whether when the mom wasn't looking the other child was
> antagonistic (it happens)
>
> giving the angry child a chance to express herself to the parent while
> the
> child is still listening, so the other child has a chance for a
> rebuttal (not
> applicable in non-verbal toddlers)
>
> changing the venue of the activities--if they're outside, bring them
> in and
> give them juice; if they're inside, take them out to the swings or
> show them
> something neat you just found.
>
> Being mean to kids just won't make them nicer people.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
Fetteroll
on 6/27/02 6:27 PM, amy8275 at amyjday@... wrote:
on the behavior rather than why, assuming that if the behavior is stopped
then the problem is solved. That isn't, of course, true since the emotions
and situation that caused the behavior haven't changed.
Every action has a cause. She may hit because she doesn't yet know what to
do with unpleasant emotions. She may hit because she doesn't have any other
skills to respond. Punishing her for choosing the wrong technique doesn't
give her the right technique. In fact it suggests to her that the proper
technique when someone is doing something you don't like is to be bigger and
stronger and *make* them be the way you want them to be.
If you can give us some specific instances, perhaps we can come up with ways
that you could handle them. They won't be formulaic as in applicable to any
and all instances of the behavior -- the *cause* should guide the response
not the behavior -- but it might help you get to a new way of viewing your
daughter's interactions with the world and what your role is.
It *is* helpful to have people suggest techniques to respond to kid
situations especially if you don't have the skills yourself. But the focus
should always be on *why* a situation is happening.
A book that helped me gain new insight into the child and parent views of
the world was How To Talk To Kids So Kids Will Listen
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380811960/qid=984825714/sr=1-1/ref=
sc_b_2/102-3006399-8134511). It doesn't really go far enough -- it's still
at the core about how to get the kids to do what you want them to -- but it
helped me to see how the standard things that parents say have the opposite
effect of what we want them to and to start seeing the world from the kids
side. They give lots of different ways of handling common situations and
it's a very easy to read format with cartoons and dialogs and so forth.
Chinaberry Books (http://www.chinaberry.com) has some wonderful parenting
books (as well as fiction and nonfiction and books on tapes. A *wonderful*
catalog.)
AnneO (and others) are good at articulating the relationship stuff on the
Unschooling.com message board.
You might also look into mindful parenting in your libraries online catalog,
Amazon or through Google.
Sandra just posted a great list of books of which many are mindful
parenting. If you missed it here it is:
There are links and samples at
http://sandradodd.com/conferences/Sacramento2001
I called this "some more primary-source unschooling stuff." They're about
parenting and mindfulness and divergent thinking.
BOOKS TO HELP UNSCHOOLING PARENTS
Sandra Dodd's booklist for 8/18/01 talk on Questioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are some of the books that helped me become the parent I am, with the
names of chapters listed for inspiration. You can find many books on
homeschooling nowadays and they're great, but you might want to read some of
the philosophy behind some other people's writings.
I didn't put any John Holt on here, only because I assume all those
interested in unschooling will have read as much John Holt as they could
find. So John Holt (Teach your Own, Never too Late, anything else) and:
The Continuum Concept
"Allowing Human Nature to Work Successfully"
Jean Liedloff
ISBN 0-201-05071-4
How My Ideas were so Radically Changed, The Continuum Concept, The Beginning
of Life, Growing Up, Deprivation of Essential Experiences, Society, Putting
Continuum Principles Back to Work
Whole Child/Whole Parent
"A Spritual & Practical Guide to Parenthood"
ISBN 0-06-090949-8
Wholeness, Spirit, Happiness, Freedom, Unity, Beauty, Truth, Love
Philosophy and the Young Child
Gareth B.. Matthews
ISBN 0-8674-66606
Puzzlement, Play, Reasoning, Piaget, Stories, Fantasy, Anxiety, Naiveté,
Dialogues
NEW AND INSPIRING: Any book by Dean Sluyter:
Why The Chicken Crossed the Road and other Hidden Enlightenment Teachings
from Buddha to Bebop to Mother Goose
The Zen Commandments: Ten Suggestions for a Life of Inner Freedom
A review of the first one, which appears in the second:
This smart, sassy, and idiosyncratic spiritual resource is divided into
sections on cosmic jokes, sacred nursery rhymes, exploding proverbs, and
accidental hymns.Sluyter proves to be a subtle and imaginative guide
through
the contemporary world of pop culture, dazzling us with epiphanies.He
provides fresh takes on faith, devotion, grace, being present, beauty,
practice, selflessness, forgiveness, simplicity. Like the best spiritual
teachers, Sluyter lets light in from many anglesin this case, the wisdom of
Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism and more. Why the Chicken Crossed the Road is
a surefire demonstration of why play is an essential ingredient in spiritual
growth." --Values and Visions
Joyce
> Unschooling(to me) isn't about teaching a child between 6This is a great mindset to begin learning new ways from. :-)
> and 18. It is about parenting my child from infancy so the grow up to
> be an intelligent and considerate adult.
> When my child hits an other child I don't know what else to doIt depends on the situation. Conventional parenting practices tend to focus
> besides punish her. What else could I do?
on the behavior rather than why, assuming that if the behavior is stopped
then the problem is solved. That isn't, of course, true since the emotions
and situation that caused the behavior haven't changed.
Every action has a cause. She may hit because she doesn't yet know what to
do with unpleasant emotions. She may hit because she doesn't have any other
skills to respond. Punishing her for choosing the wrong technique doesn't
give her the right technique. In fact it suggests to her that the proper
technique when someone is doing something you don't like is to be bigger and
stronger and *make* them be the way you want them to be.
If you can give us some specific instances, perhaps we can come up with ways
that you could handle them. They won't be formulaic as in applicable to any
and all instances of the behavior -- the *cause* should guide the response
not the behavior -- but it might help you get to a new way of viewing your
daughter's interactions with the world and what your role is.
It *is* helpful to have people suggest techniques to respond to kid
situations especially if you don't have the skills yourself. But the focus
should always be on *why* a situation is happening.
A book that helped me gain new insight into the child and parent views of
the world was How To Talk To Kids So Kids Will Listen
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380811960/qid=984825714/sr=1-1/ref=
sc_b_2/102-3006399-8134511). It doesn't really go far enough -- it's still
at the core about how to get the kids to do what you want them to -- but it
helped me to see how the standard things that parents say have the opposite
effect of what we want them to and to start seeing the world from the kids
side. They give lots of different ways of handling common situations and
it's a very easy to read format with cartoons and dialogs and so forth.
Chinaberry Books (http://www.chinaberry.com) has some wonderful parenting
books (as well as fiction and nonfiction and books on tapes. A *wonderful*
catalog.)
AnneO (and others) are good at articulating the relationship stuff on the
Unschooling.com message board.
You might also look into mindful parenting in your libraries online catalog,
Amazon or through Google.
Sandra just posted a great list of books of which many are mindful
parenting. If you missed it here it is:
There are links and samples at
http://sandradodd.com/conferences/Sacramento2001
I called this "some more primary-source unschooling stuff." They're about
parenting and mindfulness and divergent thinking.
BOOKS TO HELP UNSCHOOLING PARENTS
Sandra Dodd's booklist for 8/18/01 talk on Questioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are some of the books that helped me become the parent I am, with the
names of chapters listed for inspiration. You can find many books on
homeschooling nowadays and they're great, but you might want to read some of
the philosophy behind some other people's writings.
I didn't put any John Holt on here, only because I assume all those
interested in unschooling will have read as much John Holt as they could
find. So John Holt (Teach your Own, Never too Late, anything else) and:
The Continuum Concept
"Allowing Human Nature to Work Successfully"
Jean Liedloff
ISBN 0-201-05071-4
How My Ideas were so Radically Changed, The Continuum Concept, The Beginning
of Life, Growing Up, Deprivation of Essential Experiences, Society, Putting
Continuum Principles Back to Work
Whole Child/Whole Parent
"A Spritual & Practical Guide to Parenthood"
ISBN 0-06-090949-8
Wholeness, Spirit, Happiness, Freedom, Unity, Beauty, Truth, Love
Philosophy and the Young Child
Gareth B.. Matthews
ISBN 0-8674-66606
Puzzlement, Play, Reasoning, Piaget, Stories, Fantasy, Anxiety, Naiveté,
Dialogues
NEW AND INSPIRING: Any book by Dean Sluyter:
Why The Chicken Crossed the Road and other Hidden Enlightenment Teachings
from Buddha to Bebop to Mother Goose
The Zen Commandments: Ten Suggestions for a Life of Inner Freedom
A review of the first one, which appears in the second:
This smart, sassy, and idiosyncratic spiritual resource is divided into
sections on cosmic jokes, sacred nursery rhymes, exploding proverbs, and
accidental hymns.Sluyter proves to be a subtle and imaginative guide
through
the contemporary world of pop culture, dazzling us with epiphanies.He
provides fresh takes on faith, devotion, grace, being present, beauty,
practice, selflessness, forgiveness, simplicity. Like the best spiritual
teachers, Sluyter lets light in from many anglesin this case, the wisdom of
Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism and more. Why the Chicken Crossed the Road is
a surefire demonstration of why play is an essential ingredient in spiritual
growth." --Values and Visions
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 6/27/02 11:04 AM, MLeeHolloway@... at MLeeHolloway@... wrote:
choose to do something senselessly dangerous is the real problem.
choices. But it all depends on the situation. So discussing real situations
is a lot more enlightening than agreeing that an okay choice is better than
a bad choice.
Joyce
> when someone suggested that the child whoIf those were the only 2 choices, it might be the lesser evil.
> wouldn't stop at the signs be shown pictures or stories of dead children.
> That solution struck me as almost cruel compared to something like, I will
> stop at the corners because my mom says it dangerous if I don't she won't
> allow me to have a bike . In the context of a healthy relationship with a
> parent, couldn't that be ok?
> (Granted the tone of that story indicated toThe why is way more important than the what. Figuring out why a child would
> me some separate issues).
choose to do something senselessly dangerous is the real problem.
> Seems that part of being a parent is to be aAnd again, playing God or letting kids lose their innocence aren't the only
> shield at least for a few short years that allows children some innocence and
> simplicity and maybe that involves playing a bit of "god" in their life.
choices. But it all depends on the situation. So discussing real situations
is a lot more enlightening than agreeing that an okay choice is better than
a bad choice.
Joyce
Bill and Diane
One thing I do with little ones hitting involves removing them from each
other and then NOT punishing whichever one I think is the transgressor. Just
take them away and say, "We don't hit. Hitting isn't nice."
If they're older and can understand the concept I say, "Would you like
someone to hit you?"
If it keeps happening, I take them away from each other. Not punitively, just
away, "C'mon, let's go get some peanut butter." Not because anyone's a bad
kid, just that it's not working, try something else.
:-) Diane
amy8275 wrote:
other and then NOT punishing whichever one I think is the transgressor. Just
take them away and say, "We don't hit. Hitting isn't nice."
If they're older and can understand the concept I say, "Would you like
someone to hit you?"
If it keeps happening, I take them away from each other. Not punitively, just
away, "C'mon, let's go get some peanut butter." Not because anyone's a bad
kid, just that it's not working, try something else.
:-) Diane
amy8275 wrote:
> -(snip)-- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> > << If a child is secure of the good will of a parent isn't
> > is more kind when a 5 or 6 yr old hits someone else to say, you
> sit here
> > in this chair for this time because you did this which is not
> allowed, than
> > to end up with an 11 yr old making tracks which will be difficult
> for her to
> > erase later on.>>
> >
> > Those aren't the only two choices at all.
>
> When my child hits an other child I don't know what else to do
> besides punish her. What else could I do? I am a mother of a 3year
> old, and my parents were bad role models. I am trying to raise her
> kinder and gentler than they did. I like how some of you talk about
> parenting, and I want to do better. I don't want to be mean or impose
> my will on her. I know you wouldn't agree with some of my parenting,
> but I don't always like it myself. That is why I am trying to learn a
> better way. Unschooling(to me) isn't about teaching a child between 6
> and 18. It is about parenting my child from infancy so the grow up to
> be an intelligent and considerate adult. With out sending my child
> away for 6 hours a day, and with out trying to make her into a little
> me.
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
KT
>I wouldn't stand by and let her call my son names. You know she's going
>
> She calls him stupid and other names. Her mom stands by doing nothing which infuriates me.
>
to do it. All you have to say is "I don't like it when you call my son
names. Please stop." The reason she keeps doing it is because she gets
away with it. My wager is that she will stop. *if* she knows you're
watching and waiting.
I don't understand why we are sometimes so timid on stepping on another
mom's toes, when what we are really doing is defending our own child.
Who else is going to defend our children?
Tuck
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "diamond_h2o" <diamond_h2o@y...>
wrote:
willing to grow and learn, it's quite enlightening.
It's all perpsective.
Joanna
wrote:
> Can this amy join the new list too? I belong to alot ofunschooling
> lists and this is the only one I belong to where people are putIt can be hard to have your opinions challenged, but for those
> down for their opinions.
>
willing to grow and learn, it's quite enlightening.
It's all perpsective.
Joanna
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/02 12:49:33 AM, paltoys@... writes:
<< I wish her mom would tell her not to be so hurtful.
<<Any suggestions? >>
You could tell her not to be so hurtful.
At some playgroups, kids are out on their own, which WILL create the same
dynamics as a school playground. In others, they're playing nearer the moms,
or the moms are involved in showing them how to do something (a gymnastic
thing, a bubble thing, a game, a trick) or the moms are just milling around
where the kids are.
I avoid the groups where the moms gather to complain and leave their kids to
re-create their own same-age culture. THAT is more why I didn't want my kids
in school.
So maybe you could ask the mom if she has any ideas. You might find the mom
as clueless as the child. Some social things are genetic.
Or maybe the child has never, ever had anyone coach *her* as you've coached
your son, and she might respond well.
Sandra
<< I wish her mom would tell her not to be so hurtful.
<<Any suggestions? >>
You could tell her not to be so hurtful.
At some playgroups, kids are out on their own, which WILL create the same
dynamics as a school playground. In others, they're playing nearer the moms,
or the moms are involved in showing them how to do something (a gymnastic
thing, a bubble thing, a game, a trick) or the moms are just milling around
where the kids are.
I avoid the groups where the moms gather to complain and leave their kids to
re-create their own same-age culture. THAT is more why I didn't want my kids
in school.
So maybe you could ask the mom if she has any ideas. You might find the mom
as clueless as the child. Some social things are genetic.
Or maybe the child has never, ever had anyone coach *her* as you've coached
your son, and she might respond well.
Sandra
diamond_h2o
No my opinions on here are always wrong. I get personal off the list
hate mail from this list. Do you when you don't have the same
opinion as others here?
hate mail from this list. Do you when you don't have the same
opinion as others here?
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@m...> wrote:
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "diamond_h2o" <diamond_h2o@y...>
> wrote:
> > Can this amy join the new list too? I belong to alot of
> unschooling
> > lists and this is the only one I belong to where people are put
> > down for their opinions.
> >
>
> It can be hard to have your opinions challenged, but for those
> willing to grow and learn, it's quite enlightening.
> It's all perpsective.
> Joanna
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/02 5:48:53 AM, cen46624@... writes:
<< If it keeps happening, I take them away from each other. Not punitively,
just
away, "C'mon, let's go get some peanut butter." Not because anyone's a bad
kid, just that it's not working, try something else. >>
I like Diane's plan.
And another thing is to recognize that there are some kids who just will not
get along. Sometimes it helps for time to pass. Sometimes kids who didn't
get along at three will like each other at eight or get married at 22. But
some kids grate on each other for life, and parents shouldn't knock
themselves out trying to control behavior so that it SEEMS they're getting
along.
This is worse with cousins, members of the same small church or club,
children of parents' best friends, etc.
There are some people in my life I just can't get along with, nor they with
me. We have lots of mutual friends, they have dozens of other friends on
their end, and I have on my end. So it's not that either of us is objectivel
y odious and the other is pecking that one away. It's that something about
the other one is just horrible *to me.* Or in the case of Louie Trujillo,
five or six of his "best features" were things I could not stand. He said
in front of me and four other kids, TO HIS MOTHER, when we were guests in his
home, "Shut up, bitch." I tried to talk him into being nicer to his mom and
he laughed at me in front of all our friends. I could write a book about
how cruel and cold he was.
I couldn't wait to get out of high school so I would never have to see Louis
Trujillo again.
He married my cousin. Not just any cousin, the one my parents raised, who is
eight months older than I am, who shared a room and usually a bed with me for
almost ten years. She has five children who look JUST LIKE Louis Trujillo.
Something like that might happen to your kids too. <g> Be compassionate and
don't expect an apology from the kid who is totally and entirely stuck.
Sandra
<< If it keeps happening, I take them away from each other. Not punitively,
just
away, "C'mon, let's go get some peanut butter." Not because anyone's a bad
kid, just that it's not working, try something else. >>
I like Diane's plan.
And another thing is to recognize that there are some kids who just will not
get along. Sometimes it helps for time to pass. Sometimes kids who didn't
get along at three will like each other at eight or get married at 22. But
some kids grate on each other for life, and parents shouldn't knock
themselves out trying to control behavior so that it SEEMS they're getting
along.
This is worse with cousins, members of the same small church or club,
children of parents' best friends, etc.
There are some people in my life I just can't get along with, nor they with
me. We have lots of mutual friends, they have dozens of other friends on
their end, and I have on my end. So it's not that either of us is objectivel
y odious and the other is pecking that one away. It's that something about
the other one is just horrible *to me.* Or in the case of Louie Trujillo,
five or six of his "best features" were things I could not stand. He said
in front of me and four other kids, TO HIS MOTHER, when we were guests in his
home, "Shut up, bitch." I tried to talk him into being nicer to his mom and
he laughed at me in front of all our friends. I could write a book about
how cruel and cold he was.
I couldn't wait to get out of high school so I would never have to see Louis
Trujillo again.
He married my cousin. Not just any cousin, the one my parents raised, who is
eight months older than I am, who shared a room and usually a bed with me for
almost ten years. She has five children who look JUST LIKE Louis Trujillo.
Something like that might happen to your kids too. <g> Be compassionate and
don't expect an apology from the kid who is totally and entirely stuck.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>No my opinions on here are always wrong.If you are getting personal hate mail from people on this list, and it's
>I get personal off the list
>hate mail from this list. Do you when you don't have the same
>opinion as others here?
clearly related to the list, then you should be forwarding them to the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll. fetteroll@...
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/02 6:43:27 AM, Tuck@... writes:
<< I don't understand why we are sometimes so timid on stepping on another
mom's toes, when what we are really doing is defending our own child.
Who else is going to defend our children? >>
And, in many cases, who else is going to give the other child the assistance
and leg up she needs to learn to be a goodhearted person. Some kids are not
getting that at home, because it's not a skill their parents have or find
important, or maybe that their parents know how to convey.
Sandra
<< I don't understand why we are sometimes so timid on stepping on another
mom's toes, when what we are really doing is defending our own child.
Who else is going to defend our children? >>
And, in many cases, who else is going to give the other child the assistance
and leg up she needs to learn to be a goodhearted person. Some kids are not
getting that at home, because it's not a skill their parents have or find
important, or maybe that their parents know how to convey.
Sandra
Lewis
You know what cracks me up?
We have been out and about a lot lately, and people for instance at the cash
register are always asking my kids "are you happy to be out of school for
the summer?" They say, "we don't go to school, we homeschool". Well, they
say it so proudly!
But anyway, don't you all notice that at the end of the school year you hear
that, like woah, what a relief for the poor kids.
Then, when September rolls around, they all begin to say, "well, time to
buckle down and get back to school", like they are GLAD all those kids are
back in the prison.
We live in a huge retirement community, so maybe we hear those comments more
than others.
Just my pro unschooling thoughts for the day....
Debbie
We have been out and about a lot lately, and people for instance at the cash
register are always asking my kids "are you happy to be out of school for
the summer?" They say, "we don't go to school, we homeschool". Well, they
say it so proudly!
But anyway, don't you all notice that at the end of the school year you hear
that, like woah, what a relief for the poor kids.
Then, when September rolls around, they all begin to say, "well, time to
buckle down and get back to school", like they are GLAD all those kids are
back in the prison.
We live in a huge retirement community, so maybe we hear those comments more
than others.
Just my pro unschooling thoughts for the day....
Debbie
shellyrae00
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., MLeeHolloway@a... wrote:
some time to show love and comfort to your daughter?" I hope while
the moms were busy "meeting the other children's needs" by allowing
them to "vent their feelings" someone was focussed on your daughter's
needs.
but also
says, "Well, if you kept the house cleaner, I wouldn't get mad and
hit you." She may as well have said that it was your daughter's fault
that she was hit by the other girl. I'm not sure I would have been
able to stay civil in the face of that insinuation.
feels about it now. I'm also curious about your relationship with the
mom now. Are you still friends?
11 years with effective "natural" consequences and love instead of
punishments, contrived consequences would not be necessary now that
she's 11 years old.
I'd be interested hear others' experiences or knowledge of children
whose parents used punishment and "saw the light" and changed
philosophies when their children were older. Can this be effective?
consequences controlled my behavior. But it also made me fearful,
angry, and unconfident in my own decisions, all of which took a long,
long time to get over. That's a legacy I will not pass on to my
children.
Melissa, I felt terrible for your daughter when I read your post. It
must have been very difficult for her.
Shelly
> Evidently, after the moms came in and things settled down, everyonesat in a
> circle and each person went around and vented their feelings.My first thought when I read this was, "Wait, didn't someone take
some time to show love and comfort to your daughter?" I hope while
the moms were busy "meeting the other children's needs" by allowing
them to "vent their feelings" someone was focussed on your daughter's
needs.
>When she spoketo me later the mom apologized that her daughter hit my daughter,
but also
> mentioned that benefit of learning not to push buttons that triggeran angry
> response in other people.This statement is maddening to me. It's like the abusive husband who
says, "Well, if you kept the house cleaner, I wouldn't get mad and
hit you." She may as well have said that it was your daughter's fault
that she was hit by the other girl. I'm not sure I would have been
able to stay civil in the face of that insinuation.
> There was a natural consequence for this 11 yr old girl. She andher family
> have never been to our house again(something she was reallydisappointed with
> as we have a great art room).Good for you for protecting your daughter. I'm just curious how she
feels about it now. I'm also curious about your relationship with the
mom now. Are you still friends?
> My unschooling question, though, is shouldn't the parent step insooner in
> the life of an angry child with contrived consequences, thatis "punishment",
> to save the natural consequences that could follow down the roadwhich are
> more damaging and more permanent.Well, it's possible that if the child had been raised for her first
11 years with effective "natural" consequences and love instead of
punishments, contrived consequences would not be necessary now that
she's 11 years old.
I'd be interested hear others' experiences or knowledge of children
whose parents used punishment and "saw the light" and changed
philosophies when their children were older. Can this be effective?
> Perhaps a contrived consequence could cause a child not to act in amoment of
> anger giving them a few seconds to think rationally before theymake mistakes
> with increasing consequences.Well, I know from my experience growing up that contrived
consequences controlled my behavior. But it also made me fearful,
angry, and unconfident in my own decisions, all of which took a long,
long time to get over. That's a legacy I will not pass on to my
children.
Melissa, I felt terrible for your daughter when I read your post. It
must have been very difficult for her.
Shelly
Fetteroll
on 6/28/02 11:53 AM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:
Yes, if anyone is getting offlist emails that are bothersome, please forward
them to me.
(I'll add my email to the bottom of the messages so everyone can easily find
it.)
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> If you are getting personal hate mail from people on this list, and it'sThank you Tia!
> clearly related to the list, then you should be forwarding them to the
> moderator, Joyce Fetteroll. fetteroll@...
> Tia
Yes, if anyone is getting offlist emails that are bothersome, please forward
them to me.
(I'll add my email to the bottom of the messages so everyone can easily find
it.)
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
[email protected]
>When she spoketo me later the mom apologized that her daughter hit my daughter,
but also
> mentioned that benefit of learning not to push buttons that triggeran angry
> response in other people.<<This statement is maddening to me. It's like the abusive husband who
says, "Well, if you kept the house cleaner, I wouldn't get mad and
hit you." She may as well have said that it was your daughter's fault
that she was hit by the other girl. I'm not sure I would have been
able to stay civil in the face of that insinuation.>>
I think both ways about it. Sometimes that's a dumbass excuse on the part of
a bully. But other times, and probably just as many, one child IS being
irritating from the inability to read the first five or twenty-five "please
don't, that bugs me" clues. Some people can't even respond appropriately to
"Please stop, I don't like that" plain English.
So although it IS lame to say "You need to learn not to be irritating" it can
also be truly true.
I got mad at Kirby sometimes for hitting Marty when they were younger, and
found out later that Marty had pushed and pressed and prodded *on purpose*
WAY past the point most people would have decked him AND tattled, knowing
that Kirby was pretty patient and that if and when Kirby did hit him that
Kirby would get in trouble.
So I contributed to that whole dynamic without really knowing it, at first.
But it never got to the point that I said "Go ahead, Kirby, let him have it."
I concentrated more on seeing what Marty was lacking and why he was getting
into Kirby's space with a goofball show. And there were real reasons. Some
I could help with and some just needed time for Marty to get older.
It wasn't a simple situation. Buvise Marty to learn how to avoid being a
world-class irritant would have been way more unfair to both of them in the
longrun. I would have been telling Marty his behavior didn't matter a bit,
that he would be defended no matter how wrong he might have been.
I'm not suggesting that anyone else's kid could possibly be as irritating as
Marty was to Kirby. I'm just saying that even if it's only JUST a little
bit, it's worth helping your child see how their own behavior contributed, if
it did. And while some kids are great at reading subtle signs of interest or
avoidance, others are NOT.
I had a phone conversation somewhat against my will with someone just
yesterday. I was telling my husband this morning that I just let it go and
go until she was repeating herself rather than cut her off or say "GEEZ, I
know all this, and you're an idiot." She even managed to tell me what I
needed to MAKE Marty do (about submitting an SCA name change form, all
heraldic business within a club we're in). I told "I don't make Marty do
much." And her "advice" was I make Marty do all the research and footwork to
get his name changed. No, we stuck Marty with a registered name when he
was born, and now that he's older he wants to choose his own name. I will do
the paperwork to get that changed since I'm the one who did the paperwork to
get him named in the first place. (He's going from Jeffery Paul Gunwaldtsson
to Bardolf Gunwaldtsson, which is a better name anyway. The first one named
him after two new knights who had been squires/students of my husband and me.)
There are some abused wives who did absolutely nothing wrong, and there are
others who taunt, and to defend all of them equally without regard for the
fact that some of them have been abused repeatedly and haven't even tried to
see their own part in the relationships isn't productive when you're
counseling the woman herself.
Sandra
shellyrae00
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
that no matter what words or pestering or taunting takes place,
pummeling someone with fists is not defensible. Period.
>> There are some abused wives who did absolutely nothing wrong, andthere are
> others who taunt, and to defend all of them equally without regardfor the
> fact that some of them have been abused repeatedly and haven't eventried to
> see their own part in the relationships isn't productive whenyou're
> counseling the woman herself.Well, while I agree that sometimes people push buttons, I believe
>
> Sandra
that no matter what words or pestering or taunting takes place,
pummeling someone with fists is not defensible. Period.
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/02 12:03:39 PM, shellyrae00@... writes:
<< I believe
that no matter what words or pestering or taunting takes place,
pummeling someone with fists is not defensible. Period. >>
I hope your daughter is willing to pummel if she's ever physically threatened.
Making blanket statements without regard to other factors is the kind of
thing that gets kids in abusive situations.
My friend Jerome was told when he became an altar boy: "Always do what the
priest tells you to do." Turned out to be VERY bad advice.
"Don't talk back to grownups" is another bad rule. Sometimes the grownup is
saying "Your mom said I should come and pick you up today. Let's go."
And if a girl hears hitting is never acceptable too much, how will she get
loose from someone who is physically restraining her? I would not say
kneeing a guy in the nuts is never defensible. But to say "Maybe" is not AT
ALL to say it's always just fine.
All or nothing is rarely right.
Sandra
<< I believe
that no matter what words or pestering or taunting takes place,
pummeling someone with fists is not defensible. Period. >>
I hope your daughter is willing to pummel if she's ever physically threatened.
Making blanket statements without regard to other factors is the kind of
thing that gets kids in abusive situations.
My friend Jerome was told when he became an altar boy: "Always do what the
priest tells you to do." Turned out to be VERY bad advice.
"Don't talk back to grownups" is another bad rule. Sometimes the grownup is
saying "Your mom said I should come and pick you up today. Let's go."
And if a girl hears hitting is never acceptable too much, how will she get
loose from someone who is physically restraining her? I would not say
kneeing a guy in the nuts is never defensible. But to say "Maybe" is not AT
ALL to say it's always just fine.
All or nothing is rarely right.
Sandra
KT
>Despite it's ooky name, here is a great website about this.
>
>My friend Jerome was told when he became an altar boy: "Always do what the
>priest tells you to do." Turned out to be VERY bad advice.
>
>"Don't talk back to grownups" is another bad rule. Sometimes the grownup is
>saying "Your mom said I should come and pick you up today. Let's go."
>
Interestingly enough, it's run by mortuaries.
http://www.escapeschool.com/abduction/
Tuck
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "diamond_h2o" <diamond_h2o@y...>
wrote:
also was quite active at the homeschool P/CP board over on AOL a
couple of years ago and was quite opinionated over there. I have
never once recieved hate mail. But I've also never gone
into "defense mode" when people questioned my beliefs or practices.
I also don't post things that I can't completely back up. If I do, I
consider it a lesson learned and something i really need to think
more about.
I'm describing *me* here and in no way am saying you post in any
certain way that gets you into trouble. I don't even recall your
posts or style. :-)
Joanna
wrote:
> No my opinions on here are always wrong. I get personal off thelist
> hate mail from this list. Do you when you don't have the sameput
> opinion as others here?
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@m...> wrote:
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "diamond_h2o" <diamond_h2o@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Can this amy join the new list too? I belong to alot of
> > unschooling
> > > lists and this is the only one I belong to where people are
> > > down for their opinions.I haven't been active here in a while but have been in the past. I
> > >
> >
> > It can be hard to have your opinions challenged, but for those
> > willing to grow and learn, it's quite enlightening.
> > It's all perpsective.
> > Joanna
also was quite active at the homeschool P/CP board over on AOL a
couple of years ago and was quite opinionated over there. I have
never once recieved hate mail. But I've also never gone
into "defense mode" when people questioned my beliefs or practices.
I also don't post things that I can't completely back up. If I do, I
consider it a lesson learned and something i really need to think
more about.
I'm describing *me* here and in no way am saying you post in any
certain way that gets you into trouble. I don't even recall your
posts or style. :-)
Joanna
Bill and Diane
> << I don't understand why we are sometimes so timid on stepping on anotherI think some of this is that culturally we equate "discipline" with
> mom's toes, when what we are really doing is defending our own child.
> Who else is going to defend our children? >>
"punishment." While I won't beat someone else's kid, I will talk to them: "He
asked you to leave him alone." "I don't think he likes that." If a couple of
statements don't seem to be helping, and my son still wants to be there, I've
frequently just interposed my body between them and left it there until things
looked more hopeful.
:-) Diane
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/02 9:32:12 AM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
(across the street) last name is Trujillo. I cannot stand the Trujillo
family. I could make a list numbering in the thousands why I can't stand
them. Lets just say it started one early morning soon after they moved in,
when I went out and found their 12 y.o. daughter wailing away on her 6 y.o.
brother. He was screaming so loud our very deaf 92 y.o. next door neighbor
was outside shaking her finger at them. I made the mistake of intervening and
asking the girl why she felt the need to beat up her little brother. She
informed me the little S$*% had left his library book inside and she was
trying to get him to go on to school, because she was not going to unlock the
door. I told her it would have taken less time to unlock the door for him,
and they could have already been on their way. Then I told her to open the
door for him and told him to get his book, wash his face with cool water and
if he wanted he could go to school with Jack. So off to school he went with
Jack, his book and a tear stained face, scrubbed not so nicely by his sister.
(Who went on without him.) About an hour later I answered a knock at my door.
His mother told me to never interfere with her children again, that the girl
was in charge when she and their father were at work and if she felt the need
to discipline her little brother than it wasn't for me to stop her. AND that
she didn't appreciate having to come home to tell me this after receiving a
phone call from the daughter at school. Now I get glares from the mother, and
the daughter flips me off. My kids aren't allowed to play with their kids,
and the little boy is always calling to my son across the street to see if he
can come over, when he knows his mom wouldn't let him if the world was
ending. Poor thing, he knows it isn't like it here like it is at his home and
I can hear in his voice he wants so badly to play in peace. It just makes me
mad, and sad for him at the same time. :o(
Its the name, I just know it!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> He married my cousin. Not just any cousin, the one my parents raised, whoI almost PIMP when I read this! <g> It must be the name. Our neighbors
> is
> eight months older than I am, who shared a room and usually a bed with me
> for
> almost ten years. She has five children who look JUST LIKE Louis
> Trujillo.
(across the street) last name is Trujillo. I cannot stand the Trujillo
family. I could make a list numbering in the thousands why I can't stand
them. Lets just say it started one early morning soon after they moved in,
when I went out and found their 12 y.o. daughter wailing away on her 6 y.o.
brother. He was screaming so loud our very deaf 92 y.o. next door neighbor
was outside shaking her finger at them. I made the mistake of intervening and
asking the girl why she felt the need to beat up her little brother. She
informed me the little S$*% had left his library book inside and she was
trying to get him to go on to school, because she was not going to unlock the
door. I told her it would have taken less time to unlock the door for him,
and they could have already been on their way. Then I told her to open the
door for him and told him to get his book, wash his face with cool water and
if he wanted he could go to school with Jack. So off to school he went with
Jack, his book and a tear stained face, scrubbed not so nicely by his sister.
(Who went on without him.) About an hour later I answered a knock at my door.
His mother told me to never interfere with her children again, that the girl
was in charge when she and their father were at work and if she felt the need
to discipline her little brother than it wasn't for me to stop her. AND that
she didn't appreciate having to come home to tell me this after receiving a
phone call from the daughter at school. Now I get glares from the mother, and
the daughter flips me off. My kids aren't allowed to play with their kids,
and the little boy is always calling to my son across the street to see if he
can come over, when he knows his mom wouldn't let him if the world was
ending. Poor thing, he knows it isn't like it here like it is at his home and
I can hear in his voice he wants so badly to play in peace. It just makes me
mad, and sad for him at the same time. :o(
Its the name, I just know it!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]