Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] So I am a bad mom
Tamra Orr
Hmmm. . I am new to the list so your "reputation" as a horrible parent is
new to me. However, based on this email, I would say you are a caring,
loving parent who wants her children to learn some basic safety rules and
responsibilities. I have 4 kids and if they had done that on their bikes,
their bikes would also be put away in the attic. As far as laundry goes, we
aim for them to get it in the right place. It's not a live or death
situation if they don't, but it is a goal. So does this make me a horrible
parent too? :)
Tami
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 11:15:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] So I am a bad mom
Okay everyone here has established that i am a horrible parent
because I require that my children must put their dirty clothes
(usually a swimsuit) in the laundry room instead of throwing it on
the ceiling fan, and that they should pick their toys up off the
floor so I wont catch them in the vacuum. I work 10 hours a day
sometimes as much as 5 days a week sometimes. I clean houses for
people who never have to take responsibility for anything and I see
how those people are. My kids have a privilege of watching
television (we have to have cable or satelite to watch television
here and we couldn't afford it until april so television is new to my
kids). Due to unforeseen medical bills of my youngest son we
probably wont have television much longer. My youngest child was
born with hypospadias, severe reflux, severe allergies and has
nearly died several times because of his illnesses. I am thankful
for my children, and I never hit them but I do make them think about
whether they want the responsibility of things they have. Last night
I went riding on bicycles with my kids. My 7 year old went across a
street without stopping at a stop sign and my just turned 4 yesterday
son tried to follow but i made him stop. I told my 7 year old
that the streets where we were riding have cars come thru them at 45
miles an hour and if a car had been coming it couldn't have stopped
and probably would have killed him. I told him to stop and wait for
me at the next stop sign. He went thru the next stop sign without
stopping. I stopped him and told him that if he did it again he
could either give me $50 (which i would put in his savings account,
that is the amount our police fine bicycles for not stopping at stop
signs) or I would take his bike. He then told me he didn't know he
was supposed to stop before the stop sign he thought he was
supposed to stop on the other side of the stop sign (this kid has
been going on bike rides for 4 years and never had a problem until
last night) I said fine but the rules still applied the next
missed stop sign (if he didn't stop infront of it) if he wasn't
killed by a car I would take the money or the bike. We were one
block from home and not in a busy part of town anymore. The next
stop sign he slowed down looked at me and grinned and said "I guess
you will have to take my bike" and rode thru the intersection
without even looking to see if a car was coming. Now his bike is
hanging on the wall in the garage. When he shows he respects safety
rules enough to ride again he can have his bike until then he
has to walk while his friends taunt him because they saw him
disobeying me. He has been to doctors and therapists and
everything. Most agreed that he is just a normal kid who is testing
the limits.
So I am a bad parent---but I would take my son clean socks if he
ever wore socks. I believe children sometimes need guidance whether
they actually learn from it is up to them, but if my son really
wants his bike or whatever he will need to learn to accept the rules
first. If my son really wants to watch Dexter's lab on television
he will put his clothes in the laundry room if he thinks clothes on
the ceiling fan is better then he wont put his clothes in the laundry
room it is up to him. Is that a better way of saying it. I
guess I don't teach my kids I let them decide what is important
with hope they will see it the same way I do, but not necessarily
expecting that they will.
~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
new to me. However, based on this email, I would say you are a caring,
loving parent who wants her children to learn some basic safety rules and
responsibilities. I have 4 kids and if they had done that on their bikes,
their bikes would also be put away in the attic. As far as laundry goes, we
aim for them to get it in the right place. It's not a live or death
situation if they don't, but it is a goal. So does this make me a horrible
parent too? :)
Tami
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 11:15:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] So I am a bad mom
Okay everyone here has established that i am a horrible parent
because I require that my children must put their dirty clothes
(usually a swimsuit) in the laundry room instead of throwing it on
the ceiling fan, and that they should pick their toys up off the
floor so I wont catch them in the vacuum. I work 10 hours a day
sometimes as much as 5 days a week sometimes. I clean houses for
people who never have to take responsibility for anything and I see
how those people are. My kids have a privilege of watching
television (we have to have cable or satelite to watch television
here and we couldn't afford it until april so television is new to my
kids). Due to unforeseen medical bills of my youngest son we
probably wont have television much longer. My youngest child was
born with hypospadias, severe reflux, severe allergies and has
nearly died several times because of his illnesses. I am thankful
for my children, and I never hit them but I do make them think about
whether they want the responsibility of things they have. Last night
I went riding on bicycles with my kids. My 7 year old went across a
street without stopping at a stop sign and my just turned 4 yesterday
son tried to follow but i made him stop. I told my 7 year old
that the streets where we were riding have cars come thru them at 45
miles an hour and if a car had been coming it couldn't have stopped
and probably would have killed him. I told him to stop and wait for
me at the next stop sign. He went thru the next stop sign without
stopping. I stopped him and told him that if he did it again he
could either give me $50 (which i would put in his savings account,
that is the amount our police fine bicycles for not stopping at stop
signs) or I would take his bike. He then told me he didn't know he
was supposed to stop before the stop sign he thought he was
supposed to stop on the other side of the stop sign (this kid has
been going on bike rides for 4 years and never had a problem until
last night) I said fine but the rules still applied the next
missed stop sign (if he didn't stop infront of it) if he wasn't
killed by a car I would take the money or the bike. We were one
block from home and not in a busy part of town anymore. The next
stop sign he slowed down looked at me and grinned and said "I guess
you will have to take my bike" and rode thru the intersection
without even looking to see if a car was coming. Now his bike is
hanging on the wall in the garage. When he shows he respects safety
rules enough to ride again he can have his bike until then he
has to walk while his friends taunt him because they saw him
disobeying me. He has been to doctors and therapists and
everything. Most agreed that he is just a normal kid who is testing
the limits.
So I am a bad parent---but I would take my son clean socks if he
ever wore socks. I believe children sometimes need guidance whether
they actually learn from it is up to them, but if my son really
wants his bike or whatever he will need to learn to accept the rules
first. If my son really wants to watch Dexter's lab on television
he will put his clothes in the laundry room if he thinks clothes on
the ceiling fan is better then he wont put his clothes in the laundry
room it is up to him. Is that a better way of saying it. I
guess I don't teach my kids I let them decide what is important
with hope they will see it the same way I do, but not necessarily
expecting that they will.
~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diamond_h2o
Okay everyone here has established that i am a horrible parent
because I require that my children must put their dirty clothes
(usually a swimsuit) in the laundry room instead of throwing it on
the ceiling fan, and that they should pick their toys up off the
floor so I wont catch them in the vacuum. I work 10 hours a day
sometimes as much as 5 days a week sometimes. I clean houses for
people who never have to take responsibility for anything and I see
how those people are. My kids have a privilege of watching
television (we have to have cable or satelite to watch television
here and we couldn't afford it until april so television is new to my
kids). Due to unforeseen medical bills of my youngest son we
probably wont have television much longer. My youngest child was
born with hypospadias, severe reflux, severe allergies and has
nearly died several times because of his illnesses. I am thankful
for my children, and I never hit them but I do make them think about
whether they want the responsibility of things they have. Last night
I went riding on bicycles with my kids. My 7 year old went across a
street without stopping at a stop sign and my just turned 4 yesterday
son tried to follow but i made him stop. I told my 7 year old
that the streets where we were riding have cars come thru them at 45
miles an hour and if a car had been coming it couldn't have stopped
and probably would have killed him. I told him to stop and wait for
me at the next stop sign. He went thru the next stop sign without
stopping. I stopped him and told him that if he did it again he
could either give me $50 (which i would put in his savings account,
that is the amount our police fine bicycles for not stopping at stop
signs) or I would take his bike. He then told me he didn't know he
was supposed to stop before the stop sign he thought he was
supposed to stop on the other side of the stop sign (this kid has
been going on bike rides for 4 years and never had a problem until
last night) I said fine but the rules still applied the next
missed stop sign (if he didn't stop infront of it) if he wasn't
killed by a car I would take the money or the bike. We were one
block from home and not in a busy part of town anymore. The next
stop sign he slowed down looked at me and grinned and said "I guess
you will have to take my bike" and rode thru the intersection
without even looking to see if a car was coming. Now his bike is
hanging on the wall in the garage. When he shows he respects safety
rules enough to ride again he can have his bike until then he
has to walk while his friends taunt him because they saw him
disobeying me. He has been to doctors and therapists and
everything. Most agreed that he is just a normal kid who is testing
the limits.
So I am a bad parent---but I would take my son clean socks if he
ever wore socks. I believe children sometimes need guidance whether
they actually learn from it is up to them, but if my son really
wants his bike or whatever he will need to learn to accept the rules
first. If my son really wants to watch Dexter's lab on television
he will put his clothes in the laundry room if he thinks clothes on
the ceiling fan is better then he wont put his clothes in the laundry
room it is up to him. Is that a better way of saying it. I
guess I don't teach my kids I let them decide what is important
with hope they will see it the same way I do, but not necessarily
expecting that they will.
because I require that my children must put their dirty clothes
(usually a swimsuit) in the laundry room instead of throwing it on
the ceiling fan, and that they should pick their toys up off the
floor so I wont catch them in the vacuum. I work 10 hours a day
sometimes as much as 5 days a week sometimes. I clean houses for
people who never have to take responsibility for anything and I see
how those people are. My kids have a privilege of watching
television (we have to have cable or satelite to watch television
here and we couldn't afford it until april so television is new to my
kids). Due to unforeseen medical bills of my youngest son we
probably wont have television much longer. My youngest child was
born with hypospadias, severe reflux, severe allergies and has
nearly died several times because of his illnesses. I am thankful
for my children, and I never hit them but I do make them think about
whether they want the responsibility of things they have. Last night
I went riding on bicycles with my kids. My 7 year old went across a
street without stopping at a stop sign and my just turned 4 yesterday
son tried to follow but i made him stop. I told my 7 year old
that the streets where we were riding have cars come thru them at 45
miles an hour and if a car had been coming it couldn't have stopped
and probably would have killed him. I told him to stop and wait for
me at the next stop sign. He went thru the next stop sign without
stopping. I stopped him and told him that if he did it again he
could either give me $50 (which i would put in his savings account,
that is the amount our police fine bicycles for not stopping at stop
signs) or I would take his bike. He then told me he didn't know he
was supposed to stop before the stop sign he thought he was
supposed to stop on the other side of the stop sign (this kid has
been going on bike rides for 4 years and never had a problem until
last night) I said fine but the rules still applied the next
missed stop sign (if he didn't stop infront of it) if he wasn't
killed by a car I would take the money or the bike. We were one
block from home and not in a busy part of town anymore. The next
stop sign he slowed down looked at me and grinned and said "I guess
you will have to take my bike" and rode thru the intersection
without even looking to see if a car was coming. Now his bike is
hanging on the wall in the garage. When he shows he respects safety
rules enough to ride again he can have his bike until then he
has to walk while his friends taunt him because they saw him
disobeying me. He has been to doctors and therapists and
everything. Most agreed that he is just a normal kid who is testing
the limits.
So I am a bad parent---but I would take my son clean socks if he
ever wore socks. I believe children sometimes need guidance whether
they actually learn from it is up to them, but if my son really
wants his bike or whatever he will need to learn to accept the rules
first. If my son really wants to watch Dexter's lab on television
he will put his clothes in the laundry room if he thinks clothes on
the ceiling fan is better then he wont put his clothes in the laundry
room it is up to him. Is that a better way of saying it. I
guess I don't teach my kids I let them decide what is important
with hope they will see it the same way I do, but not necessarily
expecting that they will.
[email protected]
I don't think you are a bad mom. I cannot believe he looked at you and went
through the intersecion like that. I would probably go so far to find an
article, maybe on the internet, of a child hit by a car who did pass away.
Let him read the article and look at the picture of the little boy or girl.
I did this with my 12 year old because he does not treat his 4 year old
brother the best all of the time. I found a website for a little boy a bit
younger then 4 who was run over by the parents car and how much they missed
him. Each day should be lived like the last because you never know. I think
teaching this to our kids is a good lesson.
Mary
through the intersecion like that. I would probably go so far to find an
article, maybe on the internet, of a child hit by a car who did pass away.
Let him read the article and look at the picture of the little boy or girl.
I did this with my 12 year old because he does not treat his 4 year old
brother the best all of the time. I found a website for a little boy a bit
younger then 4 who was run over by the parents car and how much they missed
him. Each day should be lived like the last because you never know. I think
teaching this to our kids is a good lesson.
Mary
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
The only thing that can make you a horrible parent is to
substitute the judgment of cyber-folk who know neither you nor
your kids for your own informed decisions about how to raise your
own children. And that substitution is indeed the road to
failure as a kid - isn't that why they aren't in some
"educational institution" in the first place?
substitute the judgment of cyber-folk who know neither you nor
your kids for your own informed decisions about how to raise your
own children. And that substitution is indeed the road to
failure as a kid - isn't that why they aren't in some
"educational institution" in the first place?
----- Original Message -----
From: "diamond_h2o" <diamond_h2o@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:15 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] So I am a bad mom
| Okay everyone here has established that i am a horrible parent
[email protected]
<< The only thing that can make you a horrible parent is to
substitute the judgment of cyber-folk who know neither you nor
your kids for your own informed decisions about how to raise your
own children. And that substitution is indeed the road to
failure as a kid - isn't that why they aren't in some
"educational institution" in the first place? >>
One bad things school do is they try again and again and again to do things
in a way that isn't working. Then they get angry at the kids when it doesn't
work, and angry at the parents if their punishments don't cause school's
methods not to work better.
Informed decisions don't come from just doing what our parents did without
examination. Informed decisions don't come from batting away the experiences
of parents whose kids ARE stopping at stop signs, who are bringing their
clothes to be washed or are washing them themselves without threats.
I don't think anyone here is against informed decisions at ALL!
Sandra
substitute the judgment of cyber-folk who know neither you nor
your kids for your own informed decisions about how to raise your
own children. And that substitution is indeed the road to
failure as a kid - isn't that why they aren't in some
"educational institution" in the first place? >>
One bad things school do is they try again and again and again to do things
in a way that isn't working. Then they get angry at the kids when it doesn't
work, and angry at the parents if their punishments don't cause school's
methods not to work better.
Informed decisions don't come from just doing what our parents did without
examination. Informed decisions don't come from batting away the experiences
of parents whose kids ARE stopping at stop signs, who are bringing their
clothes to be washed or are washing them themselves without threats.
I don't think anyone here is against informed decisions at ALL!
Sandra
[email protected]
On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:15:36 -0000 "diamond_h2o" <diamond_h2o@...>
writes:
setting up artificial situations where they're punished (e.g., not
allowed to watch a tv show) for not doing what you tell them to do.
Someone sent me the URL for a great website yesterday, it ties right into
this discussion. The URL is http://www.cnvc.org/raisekds.htm, and here's
a quote that seems to address part of what's being discussed:
had plenty of opportunity over the years to discuss this issue with
parents, and Im pleased with how people can be helped to see the
limitations of any kind of punishment, if theyll simply ask themselves
two questions.
Question number one: What do you want the child to do differently? If we
ask only that question, it can certainly seem that punishment sometimes
works, because certainly through the threat of punishment or application
of punishment, we can at times influence a child to do what we would like
the child to do.
However, when we add a second question, it has been my experience that
parents see that punishment never works. The second question is: What do
we want the childs reasons to be for acting as we would like them to
act? Its that question that helps us to see that punishment not only
doesnt work, but it gets in the way of our children doing things for
reasons that we would like them to do them.<<<
Dar
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Okay everyone here has established that i am a horrible parentNo one said you were a horrible parent.
>If my son really wants to watch Dexter's lab on televisionBaloney. You're not letting your kids decide what is important, you're
> he will put his clothes in the laundry room if he thinks clothes on
> the ceiling fan is better then he wont put his clothes in the laundry
> room it is up to him. Is that a better way of saying it. I
> guess I don't teach my kids I let them decide what is important
> with hope they will see it the same way I do, but not necessarily
> expecting that they will.
>
setting up artificial situations where they're punished (e.g., not
allowed to watch a tv show) for not doing what you tell them to do.
Someone sent me the URL for a great website yesterday, it ties right into
this discussion. The URL is http://www.cnvc.org/raisekds.htm, and here's
a quote that seems to address part of what's being discussed:
>>>. So with such a high percentage of the population believing thatpunishment is justified and necessary in the education of children, Ive
had plenty of opportunity over the years to discuss this issue with
parents, and Im pleased with how people can be helped to see the
limitations of any kind of punishment, if theyll simply ask themselves
two questions.
Question number one: What do you want the child to do differently? If we
ask only that question, it can certainly seem that punishment sometimes
works, because certainly through the threat of punishment or application
of punishment, we can at times influence a child to do what we would like
the child to do.
However, when we add a second question, it has been my experience that
parents see that punishment never works. The second question is: What do
we want the childs reasons to be for acting as we would like them to
act? Its that question that helps us to see that punishment not only
doesnt work, but it gets in the way of our children doing things for
reasons that we would like them to do them.<<<
Dar
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diamond_h2o
My kids saw a little girl get hit by a car on a country road near
their grandparents. They were very impressed about all the pieces
for about 2 weeks (I still have nightmares about it but they never
did) and then my kids decided it would never happen to them
because.... they give me 1000's of reasons why they wont die. Our
pediatrician says that it is normal for kids to think they are
invincible. My kids have seen so many dead people I would think they
would understand but they don't...whereas dead people freak me out.
their grandparents. They were very impressed about all the pieces
for about 2 weeks (I still have nightmares about it but they never
did) and then my kids decided it would never happen to them
because.... they give me 1000's of reasons why they wont die. Our
pediatrician says that it is normal for kids to think they are
invincible. My kids have seen so many dead people I would think they
would understand but they don't...whereas dead people freak me out.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Unschoolingmommy@a... wrote:
> I don't think you are a bad mom. I cannot believe he looked at you
and went
> through the intersecion like that. I would probably go so far to
find an
> article, maybe on the internet, of a child hit by a car who did
pass away.
> Let him read the article and look at the picture of the little boy
or girl.
> I did this with my 12 year old because he does not treat his 4 year
old
> brother the best all of the time. I found a website for a little
boy a bit
> younger then 4 who was run over by the parents car and how much
they missed
> him. Each day should be lived like the last because you never
know. I think
> teaching this to our kids is a good lesson.
>
> Mary
Fetteroll
on 6/24/02 1:15 PM, diamond_h2o at diamond_h2o@... wrote:
found guilty of bad parenting and should do it the way someone else says but
because of the insistence that certain methods must be employed in order for
certain results to happen. In this case it's the insistence that coercion is
necessary for children to learn responsibility.
It is that assumption that gets challenged. There are people here raising
their children without coercion, without insisting on chores whose children
are growing into responsible, thoughtful people. Parenting with coercion is
a choice not a necessity.
Coercion undoubtedly is necessary to get kids to conform to a standard that
arises from a parent's desires rather than natural consequences. For example
from a child's point of view there are no natural bad consequences to not
vacuuming the carpet every week (or month or ...) From a child's point of
view there seem to be way more pros to leaving toys out than to putting them
away.
But if a parent insists that everyone in the family must meet a certain
standard and the rest of the family members have different sets of standards
then coercion is going to be necessary for one person's standards to
override everyone else's. (A side lesson to this is that a really good
technique to get your way -- it must be good since parents use it a lot! --
is to be bigger and stronger and more intimidating.)
But the coercion is for the purposes of getting the parent's standard met,
*not* because children need it to turn into decent adults.
(That does *not* leave the only choice as letting the kids' standards
overrule. There *are* other choices.)
Coercion is *not* the only way to get kids to help. They will do so when
they feel that their help is appreciated. Coercion probably is the only way
to get them to help in a certain way with a particular amount on a specific
time schedule though.
If we look at family and home as our gift to our children on one hand and as
an equal partnership (without imposing responsibilty since the children
didn't choose to enter the partnership) on the other hand, then they *will*
help when they feel they are necessary and when they feel their help is
appreciated and is making a contribution. (Age is also a big factor. My 10
yo daughter voluntarily brings in bags from the car and unloads them all
onto the table whereas last year it often seemed like I was asking her to
climb Mt. Everest if I suggested it. ;-) The only difference is age.)
If we treat them as conscripted labor who must help because they live here
too and mom works provide the life they have, they'll respond as any adult
would to that attitude.
There's a huge psychic difference between "Would you pick these up?" when
the child knows that "No" isn't an acceptable answer and "Would you help
me?" when the child knows that "No" is an acceptable answer. It's a lot more
pleasant to help someone out who needs your help than it is to do something
that you have no choice in. I've found a few minutes of volunteered, joyful
help that I express appreciation over leads to more minutes and more
volunteering. Though coercing help may get me longer more frequent help,
it's only result is getting the job done, not leading to someone more eager
to help or with whom I have a better relationship.
of safety. He sees this as a contest of wills between your ability to
control him and his ability to not be controlled rather than a sensible
choice between safe and unsafe. In his mind he wins if he gets to defy your
rules -- regardless of the consequences.
*Especially* in terms of safety, I'd stop playing. I see the goal as helping
him understand rather than obedience. (Even if it's obedience to a being
sensible.) (I think I saw a number of suggestions by others that didn't
involve power struggles.)
Lots of people have had good things to say about Raising Your Spirited Child
by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka (which might be helpful). But she's also written a
book called Kids, Parents and Power Struggles that might be even closer to
being on target.
Joyce
> Okay everyone here has established that i am a horrible parentThese parenting discussions arise not because someone is being judged and
> because I require that my children must put their dirty clothes
> (usually a swimsuit) in the laundry room instead of throwing it on
> the ceiling fan
found guilty of bad parenting and should do it the way someone else says but
because of the insistence that certain methods must be employed in order for
certain results to happen. In this case it's the insistence that coercion is
necessary for children to learn responsibility.
It is that assumption that gets challenged. There are people here raising
their children without coercion, without insisting on chores whose children
are growing into responsible, thoughtful people. Parenting with coercion is
a choice not a necessity.
Coercion undoubtedly is necessary to get kids to conform to a standard that
arises from a parent's desires rather than natural consequences. For example
from a child's point of view there are no natural bad consequences to not
vacuuming the carpet every week (or month or ...) From a child's point of
view there seem to be way more pros to leaving toys out than to putting them
away.
But if a parent insists that everyone in the family must meet a certain
standard and the rest of the family members have different sets of standards
then coercion is going to be necessary for one person's standards to
override everyone else's. (A side lesson to this is that a really good
technique to get your way -- it must be good since parents use it a lot! --
is to be bigger and stronger and more intimidating.)
But the coercion is for the purposes of getting the parent's standard met,
*not* because children need it to turn into decent adults.
(That does *not* leave the only choice as letting the kids' standards
overrule. There *are* other choices.)
Coercion is *not* the only way to get kids to help. They will do so when
they feel that their help is appreciated. Coercion probably is the only way
to get them to help in a certain way with a particular amount on a specific
time schedule though.
If we look at family and home as our gift to our children on one hand and as
an equal partnership (without imposing responsibilty since the children
didn't choose to enter the partnership) on the other hand, then they *will*
help when they feel they are necessary and when they feel their help is
appreciated and is making a contribution. (Age is also a big factor. My 10
yo daughter voluntarily brings in bags from the car and unloads them all
onto the table whereas last year it often seemed like I was asking her to
climb Mt. Everest if I suggested it. ;-) The only difference is age.)
If we treat them as conscripted labor who must help because they live here
too and mom works provide the life they have, they'll respond as any adult
would to that attitude.
There's a huge psychic difference between "Would you pick these up?" when
the child knows that "No" isn't an acceptable answer and "Would you help
me?" when the child knows that "No" is an acceptable answer. It's a lot more
pleasant to help someone out who needs your help than it is to do something
that you have no choice in. I've found a few minutes of volunteered, joyful
help that I express appreciation over leads to more minutes and more
volunteering. Though coercing help may get me longer more frequent help,
it's only result is getting the job done, not leading to someone more eager
to help or with whom I have a better relationship.
> The nextThis is sounding way more like a power struggle than a lack of understanding
> stop sign he slowed down looked at me and grinned and said "I guess
> you will have to take my bike" and rode thru the intersection
> without even looking to see if a car was coming.
of safety. He sees this as a contest of wills between your ability to
control him and his ability to not be controlled rather than a sensible
choice between safe and unsafe. In his mind he wins if he gets to defy your
rules -- regardless of the consequences.
*Especially* in terms of safety, I'd stop playing. I see the goal as helping
him understand rather than obedience. (Even if it's obedience to a being
sensible.) (I think I saw a number of suggestions by others that didn't
involve power struggles.)
Lots of people have had good things to say about Raising Your Spirited Child
by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka (which might be helpful). But she's also written a
book called Kids, Parents and Power Struggles that might be even closer to
being on target.
Joyce
Deborah Eiseman
Wow, Joyce! I loved your post that began:
These parenting discussions arise not because someone is being judged and
found guilty of bad parenting and should do it the way someone else says but
because of the insistence that certain methods must be employed in order for
certain results to happen. In this case it's the insistence that coercion is
necessary for children to learn responsibility.
I was getting ready to try to sort the whole thing through myself - but I am so glad you beat me to it! You did a much clearer job than I would have. This is an issue that we have been dealing with for awhile. My 7.5 year old is very strong willed and we have worked at respecting her autonomy - but it is a struggle sometimes to figure out how to get all of our needs met. Anyway, aside from books - I have had no one to learn from. (thank goodness for books!) I have always known there had to be better ways. So, we are mindfully working at this. Some days I do much better than others. Today, fortunately seems to be one of those better days. Anyway, thanks for your clear thinking and sharing. I am pretty new to this list - but I have already benefitted from your previous posts. I can tell that this list will be a valuable place for me to be.
I also wanted to mention that for me the link to cnvc that someone (sorry... I don't remember which post) included earlier didn't work. In case others had that problem, the general website is www.cnvc.org but I don't know where in the site that quote is listed. The quote was: "Question number one:What do you want the child to do differently? If we ask only that question it can certainly seem that punishment sometimes works, because certainly through the threat of punishment or application of punishment, we can at times influence a child to do what we would like the child to do. However when we add a second question , it has been my experience that parents see that punishment (I, Deborah, think you can read this as any type of coercion) never works. The second question is: What do we want the child's reasons to be for acting as we would like them to act? It's that question that helps us to see that punishment not only doesn't work, but it gets in the way of our children doing things for reasons that we would like to do them."
This quote is from my favorite (because for me it is an essential touchstone) parenting book. Actually it is only a 24 page booklet, by Marshall Rosenberg titled "Raising Children Compassionately: Parenting the Nonviolent Communication Way".
Marshall's ideas are really helpful both for parenting and for all relationships. I am pretty new to his stuff and it's going to be an uphill climb for me - but one that I KNOW will be well worth it. If the quote interests you check out the website.
Here's one more quote from that booklet that relates to this topic:
"When people hear demands, it looks to them as though our caring and respect and love are conditional. It looks as though we are only going to care for them as people when they do what we want." And, by the way, for those of you new to these ideas, I feel compelled to say that Marshall isn't recommending "permissive" parenting. It's a whole different perspective.
Anyway,hope the web link and author source is of help to someone ... and Joyce , thanks again!
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
These parenting discussions arise not because someone is being judged and
found guilty of bad parenting and should do it the way someone else says but
because of the insistence that certain methods must be employed in order for
certain results to happen. In this case it's the insistence that coercion is
necessary for children to learn responsibility.
I was getting ready to try to sort the whole thing through myself - but I am so glad you beat me to it! You did a much clearer job than I would have. This is an issue that we have been dealing with for awhile. My 7.5 year old is very strong willed and we have worked at respecting her autonomy - but it is a struggle sometimes to figure out how to get all of our needs met. Anyway, aside from books - I have had no one to learn from. (thank goodness for books!) I have always known there had to be better ways. So, we are mindfully working at this. Some days I do much better than others. Today, fortunately seems to be one of those better days. Anyway, thanks for your clear thinking and sharing. I am pretty new to this list - but I have already benefitted from your previous posts. I can tell that this list will be a valuable place for me to be.
I also wanted to mention that for me the link to cnvc that someone (sorry... I don't remember which post) included earlier didn't work. In case others had that problem, the general website is www.cnvc.org but I don't know where in the site that quote is listed. The quote was: "Question number one:What do you want the child to do differently? If we ask only that question it can certainly seem that punishment sometimes works, because certainly through the threat of punishment or application of punishment, we can at times influence a child to do what we would like the child to do. However when we add a second question , it has been my experience that parents see that punishment (I, Deborah, think you can read this as any type of coercion) never works. The second question is: What do we want the child's reasons to be for acting as we would like them to act? It's that question that helps us to see that punishment not only doesn't work, but it gets in the way of our children doing things for reasons that we would like to do them."
This quote is from my favorite (because for me it is an essential touchstone) parenting book. Actually it is only a 24 page booklet, by Marshall Rosenberg titled "Raising Children Compassionately: Parenting the Nonviolent Communication Way".
Marshall's ideas are really helpful both for parenting and for all relationships. I am pretty new to his stuff and it's going to be an uphill climb for me - but one that I KNOW will be well worth it. If the quote interests you check out the website.
Here's one more quote from that booklet that relates to this topic:
"When people hear demands, it looks to them as though our caring and respect and love are conditional. It looks as though we are only going to care for them as people when they do what we want." And, by the way, for those of you new to these ideas, I feel compelled to say that Marshall isn't recommending "permissive" parenting. It's a whole different perspective.
Anyway,hope the web link and author source is of help to someone ... and Joyce , thanks again!
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]