Responsibility
[email protected]
I'm new at posting to this site, so I hope mercy will be in order. Tia, I
want to offer you support. I agree with your philosophy of personal
responsibility. I love my family and would die for them in an instant if it
were necessary. I also believe in personal responsibility, even in children.
We do our chores together as a family team, but if I have asked time and
again that something be done and it is not, I am not adverse to allowing a
little natural consequence to come into play. This is not because I am some
control freak or unloving, unenlightened mom, but because the real world does
require some modicum of self-control and responsibility and my children can
begin to learn that here in the loving forgiving realm of our home. Don't let
anyone feel you are not being a good mom because of your methods. There are
many great ways to parent, not just one. :-) Nat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
want to offer you support. I agree with your philosophy of personal
responsibility. I love my family and would die for them in an instant if it
were necessary. I also believe in personal responsibility, even in children.
We do our chores together as a family team, but if I have asked time and
again that something be done and it is not, I am not adverse to allowing a
little natural consequence to come into play. This is not because I am some
control freak or unloving, unenlightened mom, but because the real world does
require some modicum of self-control and responsibility and my children can
begin to learn that here in the loving forgiving realm of our home. Don't let
anyone feel you are not being a good mom because of your methods. There are
many great ways to parent, not just one. :-) Nat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Judie C. Rall
> You had also talked about the housework. and the ants in your sons room.He has a trash can, and a laundry hamper, but still can't get
> That can be hard to get rid of but have you talked with him about ways to get
> rid of the problem. Offer to help him clean out all the food in the room and
> problem solve...like getting an extra large trash can that he can't miss when he
> tosses the pizza crust from the bed to the corner. Or if he at least puts
> the dishes where you can see them you could pick them up occasionally to keep
> down the ants.
anything in them. Then, when the trash is full, it sits there two
months, or more, before it's taken out. And I DO help him. The only
time dishes get to the sink is when I "help" him take them to the
kitchen. But he sure didn't need my help MAKING the mess.
> You have the responsibility to clean it up if you take on thatIt's my responsibility to pick my husband's dirty underwear off the
> responsibility. If you have a standard of clean in your head that you want for your house
> than it is your responsibility to meet that standard, no one else's.
floor and my son's dirty dishes, but it's not their responsibility if
they don't want to? Doesn't that sound wrong to you?
Judie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/31/03 5:42:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
adonai@... writes:
take care of. He paid for the class or rather you did. But after you pay
for it, it is yours. You can go or not go. The teacher isn't someone you are
responsible to. They get paid either way. I would talk to him about it being
a lot of money and maybe there are different ways to find out about the class
or whatever before spending the money.
You had also talked about the housework. and the ants in your sons room.
That can be hard to get rid of but have you talked with him about ways to get
rid of the problem. Offer to help him clean out all the food in the room and
problem solve...like getting an extra large trash can that he can't miss when he
tosses the pizza crust from the bed to the corner. Or if he at least puts
the dishes where you can see them you could pick them up occasionally to keep
down the ants.
I? Nobody else wants to share the responsibility, and I don't want
to do it, so why not just forget it?<<
You have the responsibility to clean it up if you take on that
responsibility. If you have a standard of clean in your head that you want for your house
than it is your responsibility to meet that standard, no one else's. But you do
have a choice. Maybe there standard of clean is much lower and the house
hasn't reached that level yet. And if you don't want to clean it then don't. But
think happy thoughts about it. (so to speak). Don't think or say it like a
martyr. Don't let the mess sit there and ruin your day. Let it sit there and
think of wonderful things to do with that time. And then you can say it with
a smile on your face. "The house is a mess and I don't want to clean it so I
am going outside to fly a kite with my son or go read a book or do some
quilting (my fav). "
Or try cleaning because you want to. pick up those things that are really
irritating you and ask for help. Don't ask for help making the person feel like
they have to but ask and be willing to accept a no. And let no be OK with
you.
It isn't always a me against them situation it is an us living and working
together.
My very disorganized thoughts.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
adonai@... writes:
> >>Well then, I guess I need a definition of responsibility, because toI am not sure I put the class in the category of something you have a duty to
> me, responsibility is doing those things that I have a duty to take
> care of. And we all have those kind of things.<<
>
>
take care of. He paid for the class or rather you did. But after you pay
for it, it is yours. You can go or not go. The teacher isn't someone you are
responsible to. They get paid either way. I would talk to him about it being
a lot of money and maybe there are different ways to find out about the class
or whatever before spending the money.
You had also talked about the housework. and the ants in your sons room.
That can be hard to get rid of but have you talked with him about ways to get
rid of the problem. Offer to help him clean out all the food in the room and
problem solve...like getting an extra large trash can that he can't miss when he
tosses the pizza crust from the bed to the corner. Or if he at least puts
the dishes where you can see them you could pick them up occasionally to keep
down the ants.
>>So I am sitting here in my messy house thinking, I have aresponsibility to clean this up, but I don't want to, so why should
I? Nobody else wants to share the responsibility, and I don't want
to do it, so why not just forget it?<<
You have the responsibility to clean it up if you take on that
responsibility. If you have a standard of clean in your head that you want for your house
than it is your responsibility to meet that standard, no one else's. But you do
have a choice. Maybe there standard of clean is much lower and the house
hasn't reached that level yet. And if you don't want to clean it then don't. But
think happy thoughts about it. (so to speak). Don't think or say it like a
martyr. Don't let the mess sit there and ruin your day. Let it sit there and
think of wonderful things to do with that time. And then you can say it with
a smile on your face. "The house is a mess and I don't want to clean it so I
am going outside to fly a kite with my son or go read a book or do some
quilting (my fav). "
Or try cleaning because you want to. pick up those things that are really
irritating you and ask for help. Don't ask for help making the person feel like
they have to but ask and be willing to accept a no. And let no be OK with
you.
It isn't always a me against them situation it is an us living and working
together.
My very disorganized thoughts.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< So I am sitting here in my messy house thinking, I have a
responsibility to clean this up, but I don't want to, so why should
I? Nobody else wants to share the responsibility, and I don't want
to do it, so why not just forget it? >>
Is it threatening health? Or is it just not up to House Beautiful standards?
If the photographer's not coming, and if people are happy, that seems
preferable to people being unhappy but the house being "neater."
<<That's how my son feels, and if you walk in his room right now, you
will see an unmade bed, piles of dirty clothes, dirty dishes, empty
glasses, food trash and empty food containers, and ants following a
little trail to his room because they know that's where the food
crumbs are. >>
Maybe you could pick some of those dishes up and ask him to put his clothes
in the washer and smile at him and tell him you're glad he's part of your
family.
<< You will walk by him and his hair stinks because he
refuses to take a shower and wash it. >>
Maybe he'd like to go to the swimming pool. He could shower on the way in
and on the way out, and you could get out of the house and have a good hour just
being with him.
<< Eventually this is going to
get to be a health hazard, but that's ok because we don't have to do
anything we don't WANT to do. >>
You don't have to be hostile or defensive if you don't want to, but for
various reasons sometimes people seem to think it's preferable to sweetness and
peace.
<<Where do we draw the line here?>>
Each of us draws the line different places on different days. Each of us
has priorities. If money and housekeeping are the first two priorities,
unschooling will be harder than if relationships and learning have higher because to
me, responsibility is doing those things that I have a duty to take
care of. And we all have those kind of things. >>
Responsibility has to do with who you're answerable to for various things.
To whom do you have to make your response?
I know people who grew up under an oppressive load of rules and requirements
and cleanliness standards, who had REALLY clean rooms, but weren't allowed to
have company, so nobody ever saw them, and they couldn't visit elsewhere
unless they were through cleaning, and cleaning seemed never to end.
The mother felt responsible to voices in her head that said "it's okay to
make them work, because YOU had to work, and it made you a better person." But
the mom wasn't much of a good person. She stayed home and she cleaned. She
insulted her three daughters. She swatted them with electrical cords.
She cared more about her relationship with the voices in her head (voices of
relatives who had been mean to her, and who weren't even alive anymore) than
in her relationship with her own children.
Her "responsibility" and her priorities were not conducive to natural
learning, to a peaceful home, nor to trust.
I'm choosing to be responsible to my children and to my own inner child and
to my true self, knowing firsthand that parents can put children last or close
to last, and childhood doesn't last very long. I chose when Kirby was a baby
to REALLY listen to him and BE with him. Not just to "be with him" in
proximity, but to have my life be intwined with his life, not in a buying underwear
and being resentful way, but in a feeling, caring, direct way. I paid
attention to what he liked and wondered. I never tried to make him eat what he
didn't want to eat (and that worked out well) or make him sleep when he wasn't
sleepy (and that worked out well) or stay in a room in the dark, afraid, when he
would rather be with me or his dad (and that worked out well).
One loving thing leads to another.
Sandra
responsibility to clean this up, but I don't want to, so why should
I? Nobody else wants to share the responsibility, and I don't want
to do it, so why not just forget it? >>
Is it threatening health? Or is it just not up to House Beautiful standards?
If the photographer's not coming, and if people are happy, that seems
preferable to people being unhappy but the house being "neater."
<<That's how my son feels, and if you walk in his room right now, you
will see an unmade bed, piles of dirty clothes, dirty dishes, empty
glasses, food trash and empty food containers, and ants following a
little trail to his room because they know that's where the food
crumbs are. >>
Maybe you could pick some of those dishes up and ask him to put his clothes
in the washer and smile at him and tell him you're glad he's part of your
family.
<< You will walk by him and his hair stinks because he
refuses to take a shower and wash it. >>
Maybe he'd like to go to the swimming pool. He could shower on the way in
and on the way out, and you could get out of the house and have a good hour just
being with him.
<< Eventually this is going to
get to be a health hazard, but that's ok because we don't have to do
anything we don't WANT to do. >>
You don't have to be hostile or defensive if you don't want to, but for
various reasons sometimes people seem to think it's preferable to sweetness and
peace.
<<Where do we draw the line here?>>
Each of us draws the line different places on different days. Each of us
has priorities. If money and housekeeping are the first two priorities,
unschooling will be harder than if relationships and learning have higher because to
me, responsibility is doing those things that I have a duty to take
care of. And we all have those kind of things. >>
Responsibility has to do with who you're answerable to for various things.
To whom do you have to make your response?
I know people who grew up under an oppressive load of rules and requirements
and cleanliness standards, who had REALLY clean rooms, but weren't allowed to
have company, so nobody ever saw them, and they couldn't visit elsewhere
unless they were through cleaning, and cleaning seemed never to end.
The mother felt responsible to voices in her head that said "it's okay to
make them work, because YOU had to work, and it made you a better person." But
the mom wasn't much of a good person. She stayed home and she cleaned. She
insulted her three daughters. She swatted them with electrical cords.
She cared more about her relationship with the voices in her head (voices of
relatives who had been mean to her, and who weren't even alive anymore) than
in her relationship with her own children.
Her "responsibility" and her priorities were not conducive to natural
learning, to a peaceful home, nor to trust.
I'm choosing to be responsible to my children and to my own inner child and
to my true self, knowing firsthand that parents can put children last or close
to last, and childhood doesn't last very long. I chose when Kirby was a baby
to REALLY listen to him and BE with him. Not just to "be with him" in
proximity, but to have my life be intwined with his life, not in a buying underwear
and being resentful way, but in a feeling, caring, direct way. I paid
attention to what he liked and wondered. I never tried to make him eat what he
didn't want to eat (and that worked out well) or make him sleep when he wasn't
sleepy (and that worked out well) or stay in a room in the dark, afraid, when he
would rather be with me or his dad (and that worked out well).
One loving thing leads to another.
Sandra
Shyrley
Judie C. Rall wrote:
tolerate and what the rest of the family want. I used to break down and
have a major rant every few months which did no-one any good.
So I sat the kids and husband down and told them how I felt. I told them
how I felt the give and take was all take on their part and give on
mine. I told them that I didn't feel like doing laundry, cooking meals,
having sex etc etc when I felt like this.
Then they told me stuff about how some mess didn't bother them or that
they genuinely didn't notice it.
We then discussed ways of making the family more harmonious. This
involved me not making snide comments but actually asking for help when
I needed it rather than hoping they would notice and then feeling
resentful when they didn't. It also involved me respecting the
boundaries of their bedrooms. It involved them trying to notice and
pitching in when I asked if they weren't busy.
It's not perfect of course. Kids don' tnotice dirty dishes piling up in
the sink or dirty laundry on the floor but I do. They do notice however
when they run out of clothes but if it ain't by the washing machine then
I ain't doing it. Hubby discovers if I'm less stressed and feeling
valued then he gets my attention.
What you said above....I'd say, no, it isn't your reponsibility unless
you make it yours.
Good luck
Shyrley
>Sounds like you should ne negotiating a comfort zone of what you can
>It's my responsibility to pick my husband's dirty underwear off the
>floor and my son's dirty dishes, but it's not their responsibility if
>they don't want to? Doesn't that sound wrong to you?
>
>Judie
>
>
>
>
tolerate and what the rest of the family want. I used to break down and
have a major rant every few months which did no-one any good.
So I sat the kids and husband down and told them how I felt. I told them
how I felt the give and take was all take on their part and give on
mine. I told them that I didn't feel like doing laundry, cooking meals,
having sex etc etc when I felt like this.
Then they told me stuff about how some mess didn't bother them or that
they genuinely didn't notice it.
We then discussed ways of making the family more harmonious. This
involved me not making snide comments but actually asking for help when
I needed it rather than hoping they would notice and then feeling
resentful when they didn't. It also involved me respecting the
boundaries of their bedrooms. It involved them trying to notice and
pitching in when I asked if they weren't busy.
It's not perfect of course. Kids don' tnotice dirty dishes piling up in
the sink or dirty laundry on the floor but I do. They do notice however
when they run out of clothes but if it ain't by the washing machine then
I ain't doing it. Hubby discovers if I'm less stressed and feeling
valued then he gets my attention.
What you said above....I'd say, no, it isn't your reponsibility unless
you make it yours.
Good luck
Shyrley
Pam Hartley
>From: [email protected]No, it's not your responsibility, unless you take it on. I am assuming that
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Digest Number 3960
>Date: Sun, Aug 31, 2003, 4:53 PM
>
>> You have the responsibility to clean it up if you take on that
>> responsibility. If you have a standard of clean in your head that you
> want for your house
>> than it is your responsibility to meet that standard, no one else's.
>
> It's my responsibility to pick my husband's dirty underwear off the
> floor and my son's dirty dishes, but it's not their responsibility if
> they don't want to?
neither your husband nor son is standing over you saying, "Pick up my
underwear off the floor. Now." and forcing you to do so.
If the underwear on the floor bother you and you pick them up, that's your
choice. If the underwear on the floor bother you and you ask the owner to
remove them, I would think they would be likely to do so unless your timing
or delivery are obstreperous, or there are some big-time family problems, in
which case it might be a good idea to get some outside help (lots of good
suggestions right here on this list today, but also family counseling, a
pastor, even a few good books on family dynamics, can all help, too.)
Pam
[email protected]
**Well, that doesn't seem to bother the rest of my family, because nobody
ever asks to help me clean up, even if they were involved in making the mess.
Unless I ASK them to help clean up, they don't. It doesn't bother them to stand
there and watch me clean up.**
If this includes your husband, which it seems to, your children are unlikely
to help as long as their father does not help. Especially boys. Especially
teen boys. It sucks, but there it is.
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ever asks to help me clean up, even if they were involved in making the mess.
Unless I ASK them to help clean up, they don't. It doesn't bother them to stand
there and watch me clean up.**
If this includes your husband, which it seems to, your children are unlikely
to help as long as their father does not help. Especially boys. Especially
teen boys. It sucks, but there it is.
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/1/03 2:40:05 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< If you're cleaning resentfully, he'll resent you for cleaning and he won't
help. >>
This is really great.
Likely, there are some people wondering what this could possibly have to do
with unschooling, but it can apply to cooking/eating, taking kids on outings,
buying books, renting movies...
The attitude of the parents is at least half of the attitude of the children.
When children are little, their parents are their WORLD, and it can be a
safe, comforting world, or a jittery, dangerous world.
Unschooling won't work as well in jittery-dangerous worlds.
Sandra
<< If you're cleaning resentfully, he'll resent you for cleaning and he won't
help. >>
This is really great.
Likely, there are some people wondering what this could possibly have to do
with unschooling, but it can apply to cooking/eating, taking kids on outings,
buying books, renting movies...
The attitude of the parents is at least half of the attitude of the children.
When children are little, their parents are their WORLD, and it can be a
safe, comforting world, or a jittery, dangerous world.
Unschooling won't work as well in jittery-dangerous worlds.
Sandra
Julie Solich
<< If you're cleaning resentfully, he'll resent you for cleaning and he
won't help. >>
This is really great. Likely, there are some people wondering what this
could possibly have to do with unschooling, but it can apply to
cooking/eating, taking kids on outings, buying books, renting movies...>>
Yeah, it's about freedom isn't it? Freedom offered with resentment, expected
gratitude, and guilt attached, isn't freedom at all.
Julie
information, are provided at:
won't help. >>
This is really great. Likely, there are some people wondering what this
could possibly have to do with unschooling, but it can apply to
cooking/eating, taking kids on outings, buying books, renting movies...>>
Yeah, it's about freedom isn't it? Freedom offered with resentment, expected
gratitude, and guilt attached, isn't freedom at all.
Julie
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