Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling after homeschoolingANDcleaning rooms
Debra Kattler
Debra wrote:
someone else thinks is important on their timetable. Maybe
I don't want to take responsibility for clean clothes.
Maybe I will want to next year (when I'm 16). Maybe it will
never be important to me to learn. Isn't this analogous to
respecting a persons timetable for learning to read?
And if you wanted or needed to be reminded, couldn't you
arrange to have someone remind you? I subscribe to
Flylady.net and she reminds me every day to do lots of
things which I then either do or don't. But as in my late
for school example, it's just not true that "no one reminds
me to do laundry." By that I mean, it is possible to find a
way to be reminded or to have someone else do the task, or
many other solutions.
I guess I think unschooling includes not feeling that it's
necessary to teach someone how to take responsibility for
oneself. It's like everything else, if it's important to a
person, they will learn it.
Debra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Then Tia wrote:
> >Is this really a natural consequence? I mean can't the
> >problem be prevented? A parent can go into the room and
>
> >put them in the laundry if that's what it takes or take a
>
> >basket and ask the kids to throw their socks in when they
>
> >are putting in a load or whatever. I'm sure there are
> many
> >ways to not end up in this situation. Choosing to not
> clean
> >the socks until someone is completely out of them and
> >complaining about it is a parent's decision. It is not
> >natural. It is just another punishment in "sheeps
> >clothing."
>
> I don't think so. I think it's part of learning to takeBut it's "learning" to take responsibility for something
> responsibility for
> oneself. Nobody comes around and reminds me to do *my*
> laundry. I know
> that I have enough underwear for just over a week. If I
> wash pretty much
> weekly, I have enough clean underwear.
> It's really not the end of the world to be out of socks.
> But then maybe
> the original post was about much smaller kids. I can't
> remember now. With
> younger kids I might remind if I noticed.
> Tia
someone else thinks is important on their timetable. Maybe
I don't want to take responsibility for clean clothes.
Maybe I will want to next year (when I'm 16). Maybe it will
never be important to me to learn. Isn't this analogous to
respecting a persons timetable for learning to read?
And if you wanted or needed to be reminded, couldn't you
arrange to have someone remind you? I subscribe to
Flylady.net and she reminds me every day to do lots of
things which I then either do or don't. But as in my late
for school example, it's just not true that "no one reminds
me to do laundry." By that I mean, it is possible to find a
way to be reminded or to have someone else do the task, or
many other solutions.
I guess I think unschooling includes not feeling that it's
necessary to teach someone how to take responsibility for
oneself. It's like everything else, if it's important to a
person, they will learn it.
Debra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>No. I really don't care whether my kid has clean socks to wear. It's not
>But it's "learning" to take responsibility for something
>someone else thinks is important on their timetable.
the end of the world to wear the same pair two days in a row.
>MaybeI don't think so. If it's never important to my kid to have clean clothes,
>I don't want to take responsibility for clean clothes.
>Maybe I will want to next year (when I'm 16). Maybe it will
>never be important to me to learn. Isn't this analogous to
>respecting a persons timetable for learning to read?
then it isn't important to him. I don't see any reason for me to be
involved. I'm no more pushing him to learn to wash his socks than I'm
pushing him to learn to read. If he wants clean socks, he washes
them. It's not that I would *never* under any circumstances wash his socks
or remind him. It just isn't my problem. It's his.
>And if you wanted or needed to be reminded, couldn't youI've done Flylady too. But it's no skin off her nose whether I do or don't
>arrange to have someone remind you? I subscribe to
>Flylady.net and she reminds me every day to do lots of
>things which I then either do or don't.
do those things. I guess if my son were having a terrible time remembering
his socks *and really wanted to remember*, I'd help him come up with some
sort of reminder system. But I wouldn't do it myself regularly. For one
thing, teens *hate* to be reminded. <g>
>But as in my lateSure, but it's not someone else's job to find those solutions. It's mine.
>for school example, it's just not true that "no one reminds
>me to do laundry." By that I mean, it is possible to find a
>way to be reminded or to have someone else do the task, or
>many other solutions.
>I guess I think unschooling includes not feeling that it'sExactly. If it's important to him to have clean socks, he'll learn it.
>necessary to teach someone how to take responsibility for
>oneself. It's like everything else, if it's important to a
>person, they will learn it.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Amy Thomlinson
Okay I am not talking about teenagers I am talking
about children 3-7 but how do things become important
to them. My kids have pokemon cards which they
frequently leave outside and then cry and scream and
beg grandma to buy them new ones because they didn't
take care of what they had. It isn't my
responsibility to care for them. I do make certain my
kids bicycles are out of the street but I also remind
them repeatedly not to leave them in the street. My
children used to have games, I didn't throw any
pieces away but they have taken pieces to this
grandmas house or this friends house or my older son
traded all the candyland cards for a tiny bottle and
so I did throw away all the games that no longer had
playing pieces after I ascertained that the pieces
were no longer in our house. So my children are no
longer allowed to have games because they will not
take care of them, they sometimes get toys taken away
for a while because I want them to learn that in the
cruel hard world in which they will live in someday
if they don't take care of their things the things
will be taken away and me taking away television
time or a toy for a while is better than them having
a car other expensive item stolen forever because they
didn't have mom around to make certain they took the
keys out of the car etc. I know people I work for
whose kids never have to take responsibility and
thats fine if they can afford the consquences but my
husband and I are dirt poor and can't allow are
children to suffer those kinds of things so we have
to teach them somehow. It is the way my family works
if yours doesn't work that way that is fine. But
for those of you who say that kids will learn
responsibility how did your children learn not to run
infront of moving cars or not to go with strangers
etc if children can learn only by doing and not my
any other means my little area is a very dangerous
place. My children will probably never do laundry as
long as they live at home but I do think they should
be able to put the dirty clothes in the laundry room
they should be able to pick up their own trash and
put dirty dishes in the sink. My childrens father
does none of this and when something bad happens he
always blames someone else it is never his fault and
my children seem to have his view of the world and I
am working to change that.
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
about children 3-7 but how do things become important
to them. My kids have pokemon cards which they
frequently leave outside and then cry and scream and
beg grandma to buy them new ones because they didn't
take care of what they had. It isn't my
responsibility to care for them. I do make certain my
kids bicycles are out of the street but I also remind
them repeatedly not to leave them in the street. My
children used to have games, I didn't throw any
pieces away but they have taken pieces to this
grandmas house or this friends house or my older son
traded all the candyland cards for a tiny bottle and
so I did throw away all the games that no longer had
playing pieces after I ascertained that the pieces
were no longer in our house. So my children are no
longer allowed to have games because they will not
take care of them, they sometimes get toys taken away
for a while because I want them to learn that in the
cruel hard world in which they will live in someday
if they don't take care of their things the things
will be taken away and me taking away television
time or a toy for a while is better than them having
a car other expensive item stolen forever because they
didn't have mom around to make certain they took the
keys out of the car etc. I know people I work for
whose kids never have to take responsibility and
thats fine if they can afford the consquences but my
husband and I are dirt poor and can't allow are
children to suffer those kinds of things so we have
to teach them somehow. It is the way my family works
if yours doesn't work that way that is fine. But
for those of you who say that kids will learn
responsibility how did your children learn not to run
infront of moving cars or not to go with strangers
etc if children can learn only by doing and not my
any other means my little area is a very dangerous
place. My children will probably never do laundry as
long as they live at home but I do think they should
be able to put the dirty clothes in the laundry room
they should be able to pick up their own trash and
put dirty dishes in the sink. My childrens father
does none of this and when something bad happens he
always blames someone else it is never his fault and
my children seem to have his view of the world and I
am working to change that.
>__________________________________________________
> >I guess I think unschooling includes not feeling
> that it's
> >necessary to teach someone how to take
> responsibility for
> >oneself. It's like everything else, if it's
> important to a
> >person, they will learn it.
>
> Exactly. If it's important to him to have clean
> socks, he'll learn it.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your
> consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
[email protected]
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Amy Thomlinson
<diamond_h2o@...> writes:
of busy streets is being hit by a car, true. Another way is to talk about
the dangers of fast cars. Another is to intentionally leave something
like a melon in the driveway and then run over it with our car. Another
is to crouch down in between two cars parallel-parked along a busy road
and watch the cars zipping by at eye level, so fast they blow your hair
back. Another is to watch how people you trust always act carefully and
cautiously around cars and roads.
Punishing a child for running in a road doesn't lead to any sort of
learning, IMO. That's training, or operant conditioning. The child is
learning a behavior, not understanding a possible risk. Training doesn't
enable kids to make good decisions on their own, it just trains them to
make certain reponses to a small set of stimuli.
Your posts sound like you're really frustrated with your husband and wish
he would help you out more. That's a valid issue. However, I think the
way you're raising your children is more likely to result in adults like
your husband than in responsible, self-motivated adults, based on the
examples I've seen posted to this list.
dar
My children will probably never do laundry as
<diamond_h2o@...> writes:
>But for those of you who say that kids will learnThere are many, many ways to learn. One way to learn about the dangers
> responsibility how did your children learn not to run
> in front of moving cars or not to go with strangers
> etc if children can learn only by doing and not my
> any other means my little area is a very dangerous
> place.
of busy streets is being hit by a car, true. Another way is to talk about
the dangers of fast cars. Another is to intentionally leave something
like a melon in the driveway and then run over it with our car. Another
is to crouch down in between two cars parallel-parked along a busy road
and watch the cars zipping by at eye level, so fast they blow your hair
back. Another is to watch how people you trust always act carefully and
cautiously around cars and roads.
Punishing a child for running in a road doesn't lead to any sort of
learning, IMO. That's training, or operant conditioning. The child is
learning a behavior, not understanding a possible risk. Training doesn't
enable kids to make good decisions on their own, it just trains them to
make certain reponses to a small set of stimuli.
Your posts sound like you're really frustrated with your husband and wish
he would help you out more. That's a valid issue. However, I think the
way you're raising your children is more likely to result in adults like
your husband than in responsible, self-motivated adults, based on the
examples I've seen posted to this list.
dar
My children will probably never do laundry as
> long as they live at home but I do think they should
> be able to put the dirty clothes in the laundry room
> they should be able to pick up their own trash and
> put dirty dishes in the sink. My childrens father
> does none of this and when something bad happens he
> always blames someone else it is never his fault and
> my children seem to have his view of the world and I
> am working to change that.
>
>
> >
> > >I guess I think unschooling includes not feeling
> > that it's
> > >necessary to teach someone how to take
> > responsibility for
> > >oneself. It's like everything else, if it's
> > important to a
> > >person, they will learn it.
> >
> > Exactly. If it's important to him to have clean
> > socks, he'll learn it.
> > Tia
> >
> > No one can make you feel inferior without your
> > consent.
> > Eleanor Roosevelt
> > *********************************************
> > Tia Leschke
> > leschke@...
> > On Vancouver Island
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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In a message dated 6/21/02 12:30:58 PM, diamond_h2o@... writes:
<< So my children are no
longer allowed to have games because they will not
take care of them, >>
My kids have dozens of games which *I* took care of. Now that they're older,
they're really happy to have them, and they take care of these and others
they've gotten, because they see the advantage now of having a ten year old
game you really love.
I wouldn't have let them take game parts out of the house. I would have
talked them into taking the whole game or none of it.
To banish games from an unschooling home is going to remove one of the best
learning tools ever.
<<they sometimes get toys taken away
for a while because I want them to learn that in the
cruel hard world in which they will live in someday >>
Someday?
They might get a broken leg someday. I did, when I was 32 years old.
I would not have been better prepared for that broken leg had my mother
broken my finger every year or two. And there are people who do NOT have a
cruel world tear them up. So the preparation for that was... why?
<<my husband and I are dirt poor and can't allow are
children to suffer those kinds of things >>
If you look at the suffering itself as something to be avoided rather than
looking at the things, maybe your priorities will change a little.
<< But for those of you who say that kids will learn
responsibility how did your children learn not to run
infront of moving cars or not to go with strangers
etc >>
They were with me. I didn't hold their hand every second, but if a car was
near I did, and I talked to them about why and advised them on safe and
unsafe places to stand.
How did YOUR children learn not to go with strangers? Did you take TV away
each time they did? I don't think so. It likely involved rational
discussion.
<< My childrens father
does none of this and when something bad happens he
always blames someone else it is never his fault and
my children seem to have his view of the world and I
am working to change that..>
Some of it could be genetic, but whether it is or not, being sweet and loving
is better than being harsh.
Sandra
<< So my children are no
longer allowed to have games because they will not
take care of them, >>
My kids have dozens of games which *I* took care of. Now that they're older,
they're really happy to have them, and they take care of these and others
they've gotten, because they see the advantage now of having a ten year old
game you really love.
I wouldn't have let them take game parts out of the house. I would have
talked them into taking the whole game or none of it.
To banish games from an unschooling home is going to remove one of the best
learning tools ever.
<<they sometimes get toys taken away
for a while because I want them to learn that in the
cruel hard world in which they will live in someday >>
Someday?
They might get a broken leg someday. I did, when I was 32 years old.
I would not have been better prepared for that broken leg had my mother
broken my finger every year or two. And there are people who do NOT have a
cruel world tear them up. So the preparation for that was... why?
<<my husband and I are dirt poor and can't allow are
children to suffer those kinds of things >>
If you look at the suffering itself as something to be avoided rather than
looking at the things, maybe your priorities will change a little.
<< But for those of you who say that kids will learn
responsibility how did your children learn not to run
infront of moving cars or not to go with strangers
etc >>
They were with me. I didn't hold their hand every second, but if a car was
near I did, and I talked to them about why and advised them on safe and
unsafe places to stand.
How did YOUR children learn not to go with strangers? Did you take TV away
each time they did? I don't think so. It likely involved rational
discussion.
<< My childrens father
does none of this and when something bad happens he
always blames someone else it is never his fault and
my children seem to have his view of the world and I
am working to change that..>
Some of it could be genetic, but whether it is or not, being sweet and loving
is better than being harsh.
Sandra
Debra Kattler
>I have a hard time with this logic. So you are saying that
> In a message dated 6/21/02 12:30:58 PM,
> diamond_h2o@... writes:
> <<they sometimes get toys taken away
> for a while because I want them to learn that in the
> cruel hard world in which they will live in someday >>
since the world is a cruel hard place (in your opinion),
home should be too? Why not make home a respite from the
cruel hard world? I don't believe that suffering has to be
learned. My belief is that if the world is hard (at times),
then one is better served by learning how to make ones life
easier and more pleasant, not learning how to "suck it
up."
Debra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]