Tia Leschke

>Is this really a natural consequence? I mean can't the
>problem be prevented? A parent can go into the room and
>put them in the laundry if that's what it takes or take a
>basket and ask the kids to throw their socks in when they
>are putting in a load or whatever. I'm sure there are many
>ways to not end up in this situation. Choosing to not clean
>the socks until someone is completely out of them and
>complaining about it is a parent's decision. It is not
>natural. It is just another punishment in "sheeps
>clothing."

I don't think so. I think it's part of learning to take responsibility for
oneself. Nobody comes around and reminds me to do *my* laundry. I know
that I have enough underwear for just over a week. If I wash pretty much
weekly, I have enough clean underwear.
It's really not the end of the world to be out of socks. But then maybe
the original post was about much smaller kids. I can't remember now. With
younger kids I might remind if I noticed.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Debra Kattler

Is this really a natural consequence? I mean can't the
problem be prevented? A parent can go into the room and
put them in the laundry if that's what it takes or take a
basket and ask the kids to throw their socks in when they
are putting in a load or whatever. I'm sure there are many
ways to not end up in this situation. Choosing to not clean
the socks until someone is completely out of them and
complaining about it is a parent's decision. It is not
natural. It is just another punishment in "sheeps
clothing."

Debra

Sandra wrote:
>Socks have to do with socks. If there are natural
consequences, that will
>promote learning better than arbitrarily created
consequences will.
>Sandra

Jean wrote:
Thank you Sandra. We did the same thing. The natural
consequence of not
getting dirty clothes into the laundry is not having clean
clothes.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/20/02 1:55:17 PM, leschke@... writes:

<< Nobody comes around and reminds me to do *my* laundry. >>

No, but there should be a difference between the responsibilities of adults
and stay-at-home moms, and the responsibilities of full-time-employed other
adults, and kids, in my opinion.

My husband doesn't dress up a lot to go to work, but if I notice the laundry
pile in our bedroom getting up there, I will at least grab some of the shirts
and underwear so he can wear his most comfortable favorites.

It seems that the more I do for my family, the more they're willing to do for
me. And I'm hoping they'll grow up to want to do things for other people,
too, and so I'm trying to be the kind of person I would like for them to be
too.

<<It's really not the end of the world to be out of socks. >>

If it's twenty minutes until time to be somwhere that the person's being paid
to be, on time, it's a serious matter to have no socks.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/20/02 4:16:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> It seems that the more I do for my family, the more they're willing to do
> for
> me. And I'm hoping they'll grow up to want to do things for other people,
> too, and so I'm trying to be the kind of person I would like for them to be
> too.

I just don't want my son or daughter to grow up thinking that doing laundry
is woman's work, or that mowing the lawn is mans work. That is why I don't
separate everyone's laundry, no one does *just their* laundry. Someone will
put a load of whites in, someone else will separate the clothes in the dryer
into everyone's respected baskets. I do the laundry and cook and clean and I
do it joyfully. I want to do these things. My kids and husband see this and
they want to help out as well. I suppose if I grumbled and gritched as I did
these things and made my kids do their laundry, then everyone would think it
was a pain in the butt to do household chores. As it stands now Moly enjoys
picking out a recipe, writing down a list of groceries, shopping, paying,
putting the things away and cooking it all up. Jack loves to do the dryer. He
loves the warm clothes, they way they smell, how soft they are as he puts
them into the basket they belong in, and he absolutely loves cleaning out the
lint trap! (I don't know why, but he does) Moly gets a kick out of vacuuming.
I don't think I am taking advantage of my kids time, if they wanted to do
something else I wouldn't care. Besides we have all found that it takes much
less of our time if we all pitch in for a few minutes a day, doing a little
bit at a time than the time it takes if we let things pile up and have to
tackle the mess all at once.
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Kattler

SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/20/02 9:49:13 AM,
> debra@... writes:
>
> << Choosing to not clean
> the socks until someone is completely out of them and
> complaining about it is a parent's decision. It is not
> natural. It is just another punishment in "sheeps
> clothing." >>
>
> If I consciously thought "AHA! Kirby's socks have not
> been in any of these
> five loads of laundry!" then it would be malice and
> entrapment on my part.

Right. Obviously, as you said later in this email (which I
snipped), it can happen (that socks don't get washed). What
I am taking issue with is the idea that if children are
allowed to experience "natural" consequences, they will
learn.

I believe it is my role as a parent, to help my children not
experience negative consequences if I can help it. Sure,
you can't prevent them all but I would not stand by and
watch that bad thing happen for the sake of a lesson. Of
course, running out of socks is not the end of the world,
LOL. But I am making a point about what some people call
natural consequences being used as a learning tool.

Here's another example. You stay up late, you will miss the
bus and be late for school. (An example that won't step on
any toes in this group perhaps!) It sounds logical enough
but it just isn't true that if you stay up late you will
necessarily be late for school. Maybe you set out clothes
and stuff the night before so it takes less time in the
morning. Maybe you hand the kid a sandwich on their way out
the door instead of the usual sit down breakfast. Maybe you
give the kid a ride to school so the missed bus isn't an
issue, skip school that day (hee hee) etc. etc. etc. Many
ways to solve the problem so that the supposed natural
consequence doesn't happen.

I see no reason to withhold privileges from them in addition
to being the washerwoman.

No argument from me here :-)

Debra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Kattler

>

In my last email, this sentence was Sandra's but the blue
line got erased by accident. Sorry if it was confusing.

> I see no reason to withhold privileges from them in
> addition
> to being the washerwoman.

Debra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy Thomlinson

Since I am not a stay at home mom does that make it
all right for my house to have different rules. I
clean houses and do laundry for other people and get
paid $100 each day I work, but I see what horrible
things CAN happen when children and adults are not
held at all responsible for their things (including
space). I once cleaned a house in which an 11 year
old boy had taken a package of oreo cookies licked the
insides and stuck the black parts all over his room
which ended up making permanent marks on the walls.
I had to spend an extra 2 hours on his room which
made the rest of the house suffer because I couldn't
do a good job on the rest of the house when I had to
spend so much time on one room. I think children
should learn to respect things my children don't
have to clean their rooms I do that but they have to
pick up all the things that can fit in the vacuum
before I vacuum and once a week I dust in their
bedrooms and every 4-6 months I clean everything from
top to bottom. But all the small toys that aren't
picked up I take away for a time. When they get the
toys back it is as good as getting new toys. I do
give them fair warning about the toys on the floor
which means I tell my 7 year old that he needs to put
his pokemon cards in their box and the action figures
in their box and all the art supplies need to go in
the desk. I don't tell him just to do it and then
come back in a few minutes expecting it done.
How does a child learn to respect things if they are
not held responsible in some manner for them. My
children have to pick up popped waterballoons and
trash they create from out of the yard out of respect
for birds that might try to eat it, etc.

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/20/02 1:55:17 PM,
> leschke@... writes:
>
> << Nobody comes around and reminds me to do *my*
> laundry. >>
>
> No, but there should be a difference between the
> responsibilities of adults
> and stay-at-home moms, and the responsibilities of
> full-time-employed other
> adults, and kids, in my opinion.
>
> My husband doesn't dress up a lot to go to work, but
> if I notice the laundry
> pile in our bedroom getting up there, I will at
> least grab some of the shirts
> and underwear so he can wear his most comfortable
> favorites.
>
> It seems that the more I do for my family, the more
> they're willing to do for
> me. And I'm hoping they'll grow up to want to do
> things for other people,
> too, and so I'm trying to be the kind of person I
> would like for them to be
> too.
>
> <<It's really not the end of the world to be out of
> socks. >>
>
> If it's twenty minutes until time to be somwhere
> that the person's being paid
> to be, on time, it's a serious matter to have no
> socks.
>
> Sandra
>
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[email protected]

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Amy Thomlinson
<diamond_h2o@...> writes:
>I dogive them fair warning about the toys on the floor
> which means I tell my 7 year old that he needs to put
> his pokemon cards in their box

I've heard people tell their child "You need to _____" before, and I've
never quite understood the "need" part of that. I understand the sentence
to mean "I want you to ___", right? So why is it phrased as something the
child needs, when it sounds like you're the one who actually needs (or
wants) it.


> How does a child learn to respect things if they are
> not held responsible in some manner for them.

I'm not sure if *things* should be respected, actually. But I do think
they should be well-treated, in general, to avoid having them damaged or
destroyed. Rain has learned this by mostly through watching how I treat
things, and by having things of her own that she enjoys having, and
caring for. She's as responsible as she wants to be, and she generally
takes the responsibility as she's ready for it. Right now, at 9, she does
an occasionally load of laundry but generally I do it. I'm responsible
for laundry. OTOH, she does almost all of the upkeep on her room - it's
a tiny room, admittedly, maybe 8x9, but she didn't have her own room for
years and she really enjoys having this one, and fixing it up.

That, to me, is how unschooling works - kids do things as they're ready.
IMO, if you create power struggles and try to make them do things sooner,
you shoot yourself in the foot and it often takes years longer, or maybe
they never really master doing it on their own because whenever they do
they feel like they're "losing" the struggle by doing what you coerced
them into doing.

Just for the record, we're not especially neat, actually we're somewhere
between lived-in and downright messy, most days... but it works for us,.

dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/20/02 6:38:24 PM, diamond_h2o@... writes:

<< How does a child learn to respect things if they are
not held responsible in some manner for them. >>

Some people learn not to respect things from their parents' example.

I was just telling Holly this morning that yes, her room has too much stuff.
And I would be willing to help her go through and decide what to give away or
pack away, but I would NOT do what was done to me, which is sometimes things
just disappeared forever. A favorite orange skirt; just gone. Probably
because it had to be drycleaned and my mom just got drunk and threw it in the
trash can (which we burned daily). I'm guessing. It was just one of the
gone things.

Some parents throw parts of games and puzzles away. That creates TOTAL trash
out of the parts still there, and doesn't encourage kids to take care of
things as much as it would if they saved the found pieces and had retrieve
and refile sessions to get them where they go.

Kirby still has ever issue of Nintendo Power he has ever received, in
labelled fileboxes. I didn't tell him to do that. But I did provide boxes
for him, and shelving.

Kirby still has every Ninja Turtle action figure he ever had and all the
parts. He has the parts because I helped him keep them. (He might be
missing April O'Neil's original gun. But I'm guessing it will show up in a
junk-drawer or can around here somewhere someday.)

Sticking oreos on the wall isn't the consequence of not making kids do their
own laundry, I'm pretty sure.

-=- My
children have to pick up popped waterballoons and
trash they create from out of the yard out of respect
for birds that might try to eat it, etc.-=-

Mine pick up their own trash anywhere, and a fair amount of other people's.
I don't make them, they've just always seen me and their dad and our friends
do it without fanfare. I used to take trashbags and gardening tools to the
park with us and I would pull the goatheads (a weed here that ends up being
hundreds of caltrop-style stickers when the frost comes, if they're not
pulled earlier). The kids often came and helped me, just because they wanted
to. If I had forced them to, they couldn't possibly have done it because
they wanted to. Nobody was forcing me to, I just knew that every one I
pulled would prevent dozens more the next year.

I could make my kids do things that would make my life easier today, but it
could be at the expense of making all our lives truly better in five or ten
years.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
><<It's really not the end of the world to be out of socks. >>
>
>If it's twenty minutes until time to be somwhere that the person's being paid
>to be, on time, it's a serious matter to have no socks.

Considering that people used to wear their clothes for a week or so at a
time, I really don't think two days with the same pair of socks is going to
get him fired. If they're really high, he could sprinkle some baking soda
into his shoes to absorb the smell.

It isn't that I don't enjoy doing things for my family. I do. But I
prefer to be making a choice to do those things, rather than having people
expect it of me.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/21/02 12:35:55 AM, leschke@... writes:

<< Considering that people used to wear their clothes for a week or so at a
time, I really don't think two days with the same pair of socks is going to
get him fired. If they're really high, he could sprinkle some baking soda
into his shoes to absorb the smell. >>

I'm more concerned about health issues and comfort than the smell. And socks
worn without washing wear out, too, so there's an expense and
replacement-bother to consider.

When people wore their clothes for a week or so, at least in the experience
of my grandmothers (so not into the 19th century, but to the beginning of
20th), they still washed underwear and small items (handkerchiefs, if they
didn't have lots) between laundry days, in a bucket or a washbasin.

Maybe it's just my La Leche League propaganda kicked in, but I still see
myself as my child's partner, rather than adversary or "trainer." I've seen
divorces materialize out of little things like no clean laundry, and I treat
my relationships with my children carefully as I do mine with my husband.
I've seen kids not want to have anything to do with their parents years later
(if it doesn't start when they're 14) and I'm not interested in going that
route either, just to teach them "habits." If they missed being invested in
their own sock supply as teens, they can catch up on that responsibility
lesson in just the first month they're on their own.

But in truth my kids are NOT irresponsible. I'm backup. And their
responsibility isn't coming from failures when I stood back, but from their
wanting to contribute to the partnership out of a cooperative nature and
positive regard. Kirby keeps an alarm set; I double check, and he's up and
in the shower 95% of the time now (up from 80% a year ago; he's older and
more experienced).

At night I ask who needs to get up at a certain time, and that's their
alarm-setting reminder AND my backup reminder.

With laundry, it's "I'm doing laundry," and the three of them deliver their
dirty clothes, if they're not already there before I mention it.

I'm glad we have a washer and dryer in the house. I have dealt with
laundramats and apartment laundries, and that is a stress all on its own. So
I admit my situation is easier because if things are missed we can do them
later the same day.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>I'm more concerned about health issues and comfort than the smell. And socks
>worn without washing wear out, too, so there's an expense and
>replacement-bother to consider.

I don't think we're talking constant here. If it was a constant problem,
I'm sure we'd find some other way to deal with it. I think Lars has
forgotten maybe a handful of times since he took over doing his own laundry
7 years ago. If I forget, I wear socks and underwear two days in a row
*once*, and it doesn't kill me. But then I'm really good at remembering
for a long time after that. (and my memory is *not* one of my strong
points) When he forgets, he gets better at remembering, and one day with
somewhat dirty socks doesn't seem to kill him either.


>Maybe it's just my La Leche League propaganda kicked in, but I still see
>myself as my child's partner, rather than adversary or "trainer."

So do I. And just like my dh and I each have certain things we take
responsibility for, so does our son. Dh and I sometimes negotiate
different responsibilities, and I'm happy to pitch in with his when he's
swamped. He does the same for me. And we do the same for our son. I
guess if Lars acted like it bothered him to do his laundry, I'd look at a
different plan. He took it in stride years ago.

>I've seen
>divorces materialize out of little things like no clean laundry, and I treat
>my relationships with my children carefully as I do mine with my husband.

If my husband divorced me *because* there wasn't any clean laundry, I'd say
there were a lot more things wrong with the relationship than
laundry. None of this is done in an adverserial way with either son or dh.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island