Brown

Hi Randy

Welcome to the list. You asked:

> How
> *does* one know if our children are developing and learning as they should?

It certainly is a question I have asked, and worried over. But after a while I
realised that there were other questions I had to answer first.

The number one thing, IMO, is to decide how you would like your child to develop
and what you want your child to learn. That sounds obvious, but it wasn't to me.
I took my 5yo out of school after 7 weeks, knowing it wasn't right for us, but
for years struggled with different ways to teach / get him to learn the same
sort of things school taught - and worried as to whether he was <developing and
learning as they should>. Which, of course, meant that what I was reading - and
believing - about unschooling wasn't happening because I always had this agenda
of having him 'develop and learn as he should'.

It's been 13 1/2 years now. My son has a job and has left home and is doing
fine. I have 3 more sons (16,12,9) and I still struggle with the 'shoulds', even
though my 'shoulds' have changed. I still catch myself worrying about math,
science, writing, reading, even though I tried to banish them to the bottom of
my list a long time ago.

An example. Reading. I have worried about it for years. #1 learned to read at 9
1/2. #2 learned at 8 1/2. I worried a lot, in spite of all the reading I had
done on this subject. #4 learned at 4. I thought I'd come to terms with it. All
3 of them learned pretty quickly once they started. They really do learn when
they're ready. I stopped worrying about the shoulds of development and learning.
I thought. #3 finally learned to read just before he was 12. He still hates it.
He's still not reading as well as a 12 yo 'should'. He doesn't want to read. He
won't read. I really wish I had never found out what he 'should' be able to do.
He IS making progress, and that's what I 'should' focus on.

Now if you think about it and decide that you want your kids to be 'average' or
better in ordinary old school subjects, and it is important for you to know,
then go get them tested. Then you'll know. But remember that once you know what
they 'should' be able to do, and where they stand in relation to that standard,
your relationship is changed. Inevitably. Irrevocably.

We feel that values/feeling states like responsibility, self-esteem, happiness,
honesty etc. are more important than traditional subjects like math, science
etc. By testing, and gaining that knowledge we have damaged his self esteem,
and our relationship. Not lots, I hope, but a little. Yes, I would like him to
read better, but I already knew from observation that he was improving. And IMO
any parent can see by observation if their child is learning. I believe that if
they are progressing, and are getting the encouragement they need then they are
developing and learning as they should. Why bother about what the average or
norm is? I feel I failed my son by testing his reading just because I gave in to
conditioning and worried about whether he was developing and learning as he
'should'.

> I am just saying that we were very concerned when we started this process
> several years ago about how we would know that our children would be able to
> compete in the next century with their peers from around the world. So we
> educated ourselves about what *they* say our children ought to know. And we
> have kept a close eye to make sure that our children are measuring up or
> exceeding these standards educationally. This gives us a certain level of
> comfort we that we felt we needed.

A while back our then Minister of Education here in New Zealand made a statement
about ensuring that all children were up to average! I laughed at this, of
course, but it did make me think. It seems like all of us want our children to
be average or better. That, of course, is an impossibility. So setting that
expectation, is setting at least some children up for failure. So I thought,
what's the answer? The answer for me is to make sure that I put their self
esteem and happiness before academic achievement. That doesn't mean I don't
think it's important for them to learn to write, compute etc. It's just not the
be all and end all, and not even near the top of my list (except when I slip
back into the old conditioning).

Sorry this is so long - this subject has been / is one of my hardest battles
with myself!

Carol

[email protected]

carol,
go girl! thanks for sharing from someone who has "been there." what a
lesson you have illustrated. it was a powerful post and one i will remember.

erin

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

Thank you, Carol, for sharing your 'battle' with yourself. It really
helps us (me) rookies gain some perspective. Maybe our self-battle against
the *shoulds* regarding academic achievement will be reduced to. say, a
'struggle'!
Suz
-----Original Message-----
From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:12 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Life learning


>From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
>
>Hi Randy
>
>Welcome to the list. You asked:
>
>> How
>> *does* one know if our children are developing and learning as they
should?
>
>It certainly is a question I have asked, and worried over. But after a
while I
>realised that there were other questions I had to answer first.
>
>The number one thing, IMO, is to decide how you would like your child to
develop
>and what you want your child to learn. That sounds obvious, but it wasn't
to me.
>I took my 5yo out of school after 7 weeks, knowing it wasn't right for us,
but
>for years struggled with different ways to teach / get him to learn the
same
>sort of things school taught - and worried as to whether he was <developing
and
>learning as they should>. Which, of course, meant that what I was
eading - and
>believing - about unschooling wasn't happening because I always had this
agenda
>of having him 'develop and learn as he should'.
>
>It's been 13 1/2 years now. My son has a job and has left home and is doing
>fine. I have 3 more sons (16,12,9) and I still struggle with the 'shoulds',
even
>though my 'shoulds' have changed. I still catch myself worrying about math,
>science, writing, reading, even though I tried to banish them to the bottom
of
>my list a long time ago.
>
>An example. Reading. I have worried about it for years. #1 learned to read
at 9
>1/2. #2 learned at 8 1/2. I worried a lot, in spite of all the reading I
had
>done on this subject. #4 learned at 4. I thought I'd come to terms with it.
All
>3 of them learned pretty quickly once they started. They really do learn
when
>they're ready. I stopped worrying about the shoulds of development and
learning.
>I thought. #3 finally learned to read just before he was 12. He still hates
it.
>He's still not reading as well as a 12 yo 'should'. He doesn't want to
read. He
>won't read. I really wish I had never found out what he 'should' be able to
do.
>He IS making progress, and that's what I 'should' focus on.
>
>Now if you think about it and decide that you want your kids to be
'average' or
>better in ordinary old school subjects, and it is important for you to
know,
>then go get them tested. Then you'll know. But remember that once you know
what
>they 'should' be able to do, and where they stand in relation to that
standard,
>your relationship is changed. Inevitably. Irrevocably.
>
> We feel that values/feeling states like responsibility, self-esteem,
happiness,
>honesty etc. are more important than traditional subjects like math,
science
>etc. By testing, and gaining that knowledge we have damaged his self
esteem,
>and our relationship. Not lots, I hope, but a little. Yes, I would like him
to
>read better, but I already knew from observation that he was improving. And
IMO
>any parent can see by observation if their child is learning. I believe
that if
>they are progressing, and are getting the encouragement they need then they
are
>developing and learning as they should. Why bother about what the average
or
>norm is? I feel I failed my son by testing his reading just because I gave
in to
>conditioning and worried about whether he was developing and learning as he
>'should'.
>
>> I am just saying that we were very concerned when we started this process
>> several years ago about how we would know that our children would be able
to
>> compete in the next century with their peers from around the world. So
we
>> educated ourselves about what *they* say our children ought to know. And
we
>> have kept a close eye to make sure that our children are measuring up or

>> exceeding these standards educationally. This gives us a certain level
of
>> comfort we that we felt we needed.
>
>A while back our then Minister of Education here in New Zealand made a
statement
>about ensuring that all children were up to average! I laughed at this, of
>course, but it did make me think. It seems like all of us want our children
to
>be average or better. That, of course, is an impossibility. So setting that
>expectation, is setting at least some children up for failure. So I
thought,
>what's the answer? The answer for me is to make sure that I put their self
>esteem and happiness before academic achievement. That doesn't mean I don't
>think it's important for them to learn to write, compute etc. It's just not
the
>be all and end all, and not even near the top of my list (except when I
slip
>back into the old conditioning).
>
>Sorry this is so long - this subject has been / is one of my hardest
battles
>with myself!
>
>Carol
>
>>Check it out!
>http://www.unschooling.com
>

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

I agree that testing and comparing children to one another is
disastrous. However, I also believe that for me to decide what my
children need to know would be disastrous. My 13 year old has a
completely different learning style than I do and completely
different interests. I'm always supportive of his interests - took
him to the library yesterday to help him find some books. We've
talked about college because he plans on going and we have resources
- ourselves included- to let him know what he needs to do to achieve
that goal. Still, it will be his choice whether he memorizes this
fact or that, learns algebra, geometry, etc. He's not living in a
vacuum. His sister attends college and his dad is a college
professor. I really believe that he is capable of seeking out his
own educational path. Yes, there were times in the past when we got
nervous and started *doing* math or writing. All that did was
interrupt the process. Fortunately, he had a strong
enough personality to resist our intrusions and show us what real
learning was all about. I wouldn't dare interfere now because I
couldn't possibly top what he's doing.

Diane in KS

Randy's Mail

I appreciate your post and your sharing and I agree with you mostly on the
testing thing. I am not concerned about how my children compare to other
children academically. I am concerned about how they are doing in relation
to how I think they can do, and how all that plays into their self-esteem.
Testing just seems like a way to compare children to each other just so
"they" can say whether a particular child passes or fails at something. We
do not believe too much in failure around here and we certainly do not
subject our children to this kind of comparisons. We do use questions and
reviews which could be called tests I suppose. But these are only for us to
know how to help our children in areas we think might be important. They
look forward to them as learning opportunities because they know there is no
negative stigma associated with them (no grades or pass or fail nonsense).
And while love and approval and many other important fundamentals play an
important role in a child's self-esteem, we think achievement does also.

-- RJS

Brown

Oh, yes, yes, yes
Carol

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz wrote:

> From: "Jeff & Diane Gwirtz" <jagwirtz@...>
>
> I agree that testing and comparing children to one another is
> disastrous. However, I also believe that for me to decide what my
> children need to know would be disastrous. My 13 year old has a
> completely different learning style than I do and completely
> different interests. I'm always supportive of his interests - took
> him to the library yesterday to help him find some books. We've
> talked about college because he plans on going and we have resources
> - ourselves included- to let him know what he needs to do to achieve
> that goal. Still, it will be his choice whether he memorizes this
> fact or that, learns algebra, geometry, etc. He's not living in a
> vacuum. His sister attends college and his dad is a college
> professor. I really believe that he is capable of seeking out his
> own educational path. Yes, there were times in the past when we got
> nervous and started *doing* math or writing. All that did was
> interrupt the process. Fortunately, he had a strong
> enough personality to resist our intrusions and show us what real
> learning was all about. I wouldn't dare interfere now because I
> couldn't possibly top what he's doing.
>
> Diane in KS
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 8:12:29 PM EST, mjcmbrwn@... writes:

<< he answer for me is to make sure that I put their self
esteem and happiness before academic achievement. >>
Carol,
That was a very thoughtful and beautiful post, it says so much to what we
want to do for our kids! thanks
Teresa

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> There are so many skills that are necessary for a society. Yet many of
> us want it to be someone else's kids who grow up to: put up drywall, lay
> tile, deliver mail, maintain and repair autos, cut hair, etc. This way of
> thinking seems exploitive to me. We do want SOMEONE to do these things
> because they are badly needed. But if we don't value these jobs and think of
> them as undesireable, it seems like we are using these people. Does this
> make any sense?
>
It makes perfect sense. It's like we give lip-service to valuing
certain occupations, but secretly want our child to win the Nobel
Prize. I live in a college town and PhDs are a dime a dozen.
Intellectual snobbery can run rampant. Dh has never fallen into this
trap, but he works with a lot of people who have. They're very
offended if someone forgets the Dr. before their name or asks them to
do some menial task. Dh's students call him by his first name and he
has been criticized for this. There's even a social club at the
university (we don't belong) that only invites faculty at a certain
level or above. Dh often finds that he's more comfortable with the
classified employees than he is with the other faculty members.
Dh's brother is a diesel mechanic. School was not fun for him!
Now, he has his own very successful
business and can take apart and fix any kind of engine. Still, he
often struggles with feeling inferior because of the way society
views him. He wasn't successful in school and it haunts him.
It's so sad that something so unsuccessful as public education is
society's measuring stick.

Diane in KS

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> way. So I take two steps forward and one back again. I may get there yet.LOL
>
Hey - perfect definition of unschooling!!!!!!!!!
Enjoy your son's love of drawing. If he likes geometry and drawing,
maybe architecture is in his future. One thing we've learned about
math is that it definitely doesn't have to be learned in the same
order that they approach it in ps. My 13 year old seems to alternate
quite a bit - algebra-geometry.

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 6:12:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:

<< It seems like all of us want our children to
be average or better. That, of course, is an impossibility. So setting that
expectation, is setting at least some children up for failur >>

Carol,
I agree with so much of your post! The whole concept of "competing"
bothers me because inherent in it is the fact that some will have to be
assessed as inferior for others to be average or superior. Also, I feel that
many of our societies are too focused on competing rather than working
together for the mutual benefit of all.

Lucy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/14/99 8:50:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jagwirtz@... writes:

<< My 13 year old has a
completely different learning style than I do and completely
different interests. >>

Diane,
I know exactly what you mean. I have learned this the hard way
sometimes. For too long, I believed that my interests should be interesting
to the others in my family. I love literature, history, philosophy,
architecture, interior design, gardening, etc. My husband is a very hands-on
person who used to be in fire protection when he was in the Air Force and now
is a tile setter. He can do almost anything related to construction and is
planning to build our home next year. Yet I used to feel that he was kind of
lacking because he didn't share my more "intellectual" interests. (I am
embarrassed to admit it but it's the truth.) My kids each have their own
interests and apptitudes as well. All of us find certain interests we share,
which makes it nice, but I have stopped trying to make my kids and husband
have all of my interests.
There are so many skills that are necessary for a society. Yet many of
us want it to be someone else's kids who grow up to: put up drywall, lay
tile, deliver mail, maintain and repair autos, cut hair, etc. This way of
thinking seems exploitive to me. We do want SOMEONE to do these things
because they are badly needed. But if we don't value these jobs and think of
them as undesireable, it seems like we are using these people. Does this
make any sense?

Lucy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/99 9:12:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:

<< It seems like all of us want our children to
be average or better. That, of course, is an impossibility. So setting that
expectation, is setting at least some children up for failure. So I thought,
what's the answer? The answer for me is to make sure that I put their self
esteem and happiness before academic achievement. That doesn't mean I don't
think it's important for them to learn to write, compute etc. It's just not
the
be all and end all, and not even near the top of my list (except when I slip
back into the old conditioning). >>

I was thinking of all this recently as I watched my talented son draw. He
can read well, he can write but hates too and struggles with it. For now
basic math is a challenge but he likes and does well in geometry. His passion
though for now is drawing. I was afraid he had lost this when he was in
school. There was so little time for him to follow his desires that his
artistic talent which is one of his greatest assets was being pushed aside.
He was becoming convinced he was a failure because he couldn't do some of the
school stuff as fast as others. The shame of it was that few of his school
mates has his talent for drawing. His talent did not show at school, but his
failure did and was affecting all of him.
So do I let him follow his desires or do I cram multiplication at him?
How hard this is when I have been conditioned to believe there is ONE right
way. So I take two steps forward and one back again. I may get there yet.LOL

Laura

Lisa Bugg

For too long, I believed that my interests should be interesting
> to the others in my family. I love literature, history, philosophy,
> architecture, interior design, gardening, etc. My husband is a very
hands-on
> person who used to be in fire protection when he was in the Air Force and
now
> is a tile setter. He can do almost anything related to construction and
is
> planning to build our home next year. Yet I used to feel that he was kind
of
> lacking because he didn't share my more "intellectual" interests. (I am
> embarrassed to admit it but it's the truth.) My kids each have their own
> interests and apptitudes as well. All of us find certain interests we
share,
> which makes it nice, but I have stopped trying to make my kids and husband
> have all of my interests.
> There are so many skills that are necessary for a society. Yet many
of
> us want it to be someone else's kids who grow up to: put up drywall, lay
> tile, deliver mail, maintain and repair autos, cut hair, etc. This way of
> thinking seems exploitive to me. We do want SOMEONE to do these things
> because they are badly needed. But if we don't value these jobs and think
of
> them as undesireable, it seems like we are using these people. Does this
> make any sense?
>
> Lucy

Not only does it make sense, I would like to use it for the site. :)

We need to take this discussion out of just our unschooling world, but into
the homeschooling world and beyond.

I'm tired of meeting homeschoolers who think I'm trying to outschool the
schools.

A mom and her 14 year old son sat in my home today. Mom thought I was going
to come into her home and homeschool her son for her...... she never really
recovered from the shock that that wasn't going to happen, but her son..
eeewwww boy. That child caught a whiff of something different and by the
time he left my house he was thinking at the speed of light. He wants to be
a mechanic, and here I was talking about physics and cultural changes that
came about because of the assembly line and computer technology and what he
needed to be open to as he matured. And how not cowing down to all those
powers that be who tried to force him to just *do the work* would be the
most important thing he's ever done. When I talked about how strong he must
be to resists all that crap (although I didn't use that word today) from all
those adults last year, he got it. When I told him that if he could
remember what it felt like to hold his ground during that time and show his
future children how to do that, we'd get out of this mess we're in where
kids are killing each other at school. Boy did he get that one.

Now, if ya'll just keep typing your hearts out about these matters, we'll
build a resource that'll help change the world. ;)



Lisa

[email protected]

What you say is so true, Lisa. My dd's passion is animals--mostly horses
and dogs, but anything that lives will do. She and a friend did a
project--figuring how much is would cost to care for a horse for a year--they
figured out one time costs(tack, barn, fencing, the horse etc), and ongoing
costs ( feed, vet, farrier, etc). they compared costs of local tack and feed
shops and mail-order catalogs. They averaged feed costs. They were amazing!!!
Sarah(my 11 yo dd) got her own dog last year. She was a rescue dog from the
SPCA and was afraid of everything. she hid her food. she backed out of rooms.
She cried when she was touched. She was afraid of her collar and leash. she
was quite literally afraid of her own shadow. In the beginning Sarah hand fed
her until she'd eat on her own, she slept with her until she was able to
sleep on her own(attachment dog parenting!!). In 4H Sarah took the dog
obedience project with her dog, and they place first in their class at the
county fair. Sarah can tell you everything she has learned about Tibetan
Terriers(her dog's breed), she can tell you what she has found to be
effective in working with abused animals(we have 3 SPCA dogs). She has had
the time to explore her passion and to live it. Sarah and her dog are a
testiment to the power of unconditional love, and to the time to just *be*.
Now she and her friend are learning about dog agility--measuring and setting
us agility courses, etc. *This* is relevant learning
Debra

Campbell & Wyman

This post really moved me. One of my daughters has the same gift with
animals and I nurture her passions as well. I , too, think that the time we
spend caring for ourselves (and listening to our hearts and dreams) and
others (and walking their walk) is very important Thanks for sharing this.

Brooke

> Sarah(my 11 yo dd) got her own dog last year. She was a rescue dog from
the
>SPCA and was afraid of everything. she hid her food. she backed out of
rooms.
>She cried when she was touched. She was afraid of her collar and leash. she
>was quite literally afraid of her own shadow. In the beginning Sarah hand
fed
>her until she'd eat on her own, she slept with her until she was able to
>sleep on her own(attachment dog parenting!!). In 4H Sarah took the dog
>obedience project with her dog, and they place first in their class at the
>county fair. Sarah can tell you everything she has learned about Tibetan
>Terriers(her dog's breed), she can tell you what she has found to be
>effective in working with abused animals(we have 3 SPCA dogs). She has had
>the time to explore her passion and to live it. Sarah and her dog are a
>testiment to the power of unconditional love, and to the time to just *be*.
> Now she and her friend are learning about dog agility--measuring and
setting
>us agility courses, etc. *This* is relevant learning
> Debra

brynlee@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/14/99 11:44:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
LASaliger@... writes:

<< There are so many skills that are necessary for a society. Yet many
of
us want it to be someone else's kids who grow up to: put up drywall, lay
tile, deliver mail, maintain and repair autos, cut hair, etc. This way of
thinking seems exploitive to me. We do want SOMEONE to do these things
because they are badly needed. But if we don't value these jobs and think
of
them as undesirable, it seems like we are using these people. Does this
make any sense? >>

It's funny but I have never felt this way. My husband is a painter and
has been for over 25 yrs. as is his father, his brothers and now one of my
sons. I do not mean to imply that I am offended because I know many people
feel this way. I also like to work with my hands and have always encouraged
my kids to. I have conflict with many people because almost everyone has the
belief that all people should go to college and find a good white collar job.
I can see so much opportunity in the service sector in the future. No one
wants to do much physical work anymore, my dh is busy year round and has to
turn folks away. There is a 4-6 month wait to have some part on the kids
mini-motorcycle fixed. I see loads of opportunity to make a good living out
there for the taking.

Laura

John O. Andersen

Laura,

Yes, yes, yes!!

And physical labor carries another added benefit:

It makes it hard to get fat!!!!

John


----- Original Message -----
From: <Bonknit@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Life learning


> From: Bonknit@...
>
> In a message dated 10/14/99 11:44:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> LASaliger@... writes:
>
> << There are so many skills that are necessary for a society. Yet
many
> of
> us want it to be someone else's kids who grow up to: put up drywall, lay
> tile, deliver mail, maintain and repair autos, cut hair, etc. This way
of
> thinking seems exploitive to me. We do want SOMEONE to do these things
> because they are badly needed. But if we don't value these jobs and
think
> of
> them as undesirable, it seems like we are using these people. Does this
> make any sense? >>
>
> It's funny but I have never felt this way. My husband is a painter and
> has been for over 25 yrs. as is his father, his brothers and now one of my
> sons. I do not mean to imply that I am offended because I know many
people
> feel this way. I also like to work with my hands and have always
encouraged
> my kids to. I have conflict with many people because almost everyone has
the
> belief that all people should go to college and find a good white collar
job.
> I can see so much opportunity in the service sector in the future. No one
> wants to do much physical work anymore, my dh is busy year round and has
to
> turn folks away. There is a 4-6 month wait to have some part on the kids
> mini-motorcycle fixed. I see loads of opportunity to make a good living
out
> there for the taking.
>
> Laura
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
>