[email protected]

>I have to agree that the poster should not have taken the kids off their
>meds. Their beliefs about the need for them is irrelevant, as is the danger
>of taking tehm off cold turkey.
>I firmly believe that I have many rights as a parent, which can be summed up
>briefly as the right to do what I think is best for my children. In my
>opinion, what is best for them is out of hospital births, breastfeeding,
>encouraging questions, unschooling, etc. If ANY one, relative or not, were
>to do something contrary to the choices we made, behind my back and without
>asking, they would never be trusted again to be with my children
>unsupervised.

You are to be commended for such an attitude. However, that wasn't an
issue in this case. While my sister wanted us to drug her children, we
made it clear that we would not take them if that was a condition; that she
could suggest it if she wished but that our intention was that it would be
a drug-free week. She didn't like it, but if she wished for them not to go
under those conditions, she was free to keep them home.

>Yes, I agree with many here who say Ritalin is overprescribed and that ADD
>doesn't apply in an unschooling life. Again, to me those things were
>irrelevant. WHat really bothered me was someone deliberately violated a
>parent's wishes and decisions.

As explained, untrue.

>PS> My disagreement wasn't personal, as I don't know the original poster and
>can't remember her name.

"His". And my name is Marc, and I don't take them personally. Nor am I
intending these replies personally, which is why I usually strip out the
name of the person to whom I am responding. I am discussing the points,
not the poster.

>From another post...

>I am not a health food nut, but if my kids stay with friends who are, they
>eat what that other family is eating. I don't take my kids to church, but
>when other people have, I haven't made a big deal, because the kids can say
>no if they really don't want to go. Even if someone took Holly and marched
>her through a full week of Vacation Bible School and Baptist-life to try to
>convince her that she had to be born again, I could be calm about that,
>because Holly knows enough to be analytical and is not easily led.

This is one of the best attitudes you can have with children -- you do the
best you can with them, allow them to make their own choices, and bear
responsibility for those choices -- since that's what's going to happen
ANYWAY. Besides, the best way for them to see what they like (or not) of
their own lifestyle is to allow them to sample the lifestyles of others.

One of the reasons we pick up my nephews on occassion is to allow them to
live in an environment free of drugging, verbal and physical abuse, and the
other problems of their existence that they are forced to live with EVERY
DAY, and maybe show them that life doesn't have to be that bad all the
time. They may choose to change their situations or attitudes later in
life because of that taste of life from "the other side", or not. But we
felt it was important to give them that taste.

>We allow TV watching at our house, and video games. I would NOT even begin
>to agree to keep someone else's child for a week (nephews, neighbors,
>friends) on the parents' terms if they were to say "Don't let him watch TV"
>or "Make him go to bed at 9:00" or "If he says a bad word he has to be
>spanked." They can keep him themselves.

Just as an aside, we're avid fans of no television. By the same token, one
of our family friends had their boy spend a weekend with us -- and they
knew in advance that there was no TV available. They have the courtesy to
not demand that we go out and buy a TV for their kid to watch. A year
later, their child STILL talks of all the things we did with him that
weekend -- which I doubt one could say about any video game or TV show the
youngster watched a year ago.

>And if a family drugs their child even when he's home because a doctor said
>it was a good idea, if his being drugged daily is crucial to their peace of
>mind, they should keep him with them ever moment, because not all people are
>willing to give children stupifying drugs.

Well, now, that certainly describes me. As far as I am concerned, drugging
children in most cases I consider to be abusive, just as making that child
swallow a cupful of hard liquor would be (interestingly, the result is
about the same -- lethargy, lack of initiative, etc). There are precious
few children who TRULY need ANY sort of psychoactive "medication".

Some time, I'm going to post the transcript of a conversation we had once
with the younger nephew, when we asked him if he knew WHY he was on drugs.
It was an excruciatingly sad conversation, which I am certain that could
have been repeated with a couple of million other young, innocent boys.

>From yet another message:

><< Don't you realize that when children have been on medication, that they
> cannot
> go COLD TURKEY??? >>
>
>You can with Ritalin.
>In fact, many, many parents are advised to only give it to them during the
>school week and leave them off it on the weekends. Seems like a big HUGE,
>in-your-face way of saying they only need to be drugged to keep them zombies
>while in school.

Jeez, now THAT sums it up very well! Thank you thank you thank you.

-- Marc

[email protected]

>> Needless to say, I did not like what she was willingly doing to her
>> innocent little boys.
>>
>> My wife and I took them on a week's vacation, and we swore that they would
>> be going cold-turkey off of those chemicals. For a week, they didn't see
>> Pill One. We marched their little butts all over creation and back, and
>> didn't slow down a bit to wait for them, so they HAD to keep up
>
>Don't you realize that when children have been on medication, that they
>cannot
>go COLD TURKEY???

First of all, please remember some Netiquette. The strident tone, as
indicated with the multiple punctuation and caps (to indicate "shouting" as
opposed to simple emphasis) is unecessary. Their usage undermines your
point, by indicating it's an emotionalized reply rather than a logical one.

>You are very fortunate that these two boys didn't
>experience
>withdrawl,

Were you a physician, I could not patronize you if you had that little
information. My wife IS a physician, and while I am not any longer in any
health-care field, I have some experience with the effects of substance
abuse, and I know what I am speaking of.

Ritalin is related to several other abused substances and has similar
characteristics. "Withdrawal" is not among the dangers of the drug.

>and may I remind you that you took a very BIG chance in doing
>this?

Nope. That is incorrect. Leaving these boys ON Ritalin is more dangerous
than taking them off. You may wish to read the list of side effects of the
drug, if you doubt. Those side effects are the main reason kids who are
given Ritalin or its substitutes are often later given additional dangerous
chemicals; a veritable cocktail of substances -- each of which is supposed
to counteract the side effects of the previously administered drug.

>Please anyone that reads this letter please be aware that cold turkey is
>wrong
>even if it involves you as an adult. These medications alter the chemicals in
>the body, and are there for a purpose and by no means are gone and out of
>the system within a week.

Anyone who reads my original letter should also be aware that taking their
child off of Ritalin and any other psychoactive drug cocktails they have
their kids on is a GOOD choice.

>I think you better investigate medications and
>withdrawl before you take a chance like this again, especially with some
>one elses children.

You may wish to do the same; I have already done so.

I must admit, I'm just a little astounded by the lack of accurate
information people have received about these dangerous drugs. You mistrust
the school system enough to get your kids away from it, but when it comes
to the ill-advised mass medicating the school system has made "standard
operating procedure", some of you seem to have fallen for the bureaucrats'
"wisdom". Unfortunate, at best.

I'll say it again: Just Say No to drugs. Your child does NOT need
psychoactive substances. They are DANGEROUS and unnecessary. Get them
away from them for all the same reasons you got them away from the schools.

-- Marc

[email protected]

<<While my sister wanted us to drug her children, we
made it clear that we would not take them if that was a condition; that she
could suggest it if she wished but that our intention was that it would be
a drug-free week. She didn't like it, but if she wished for them not to go
under those conditions, she was free to keep them home.>>
Ahh, this makes it VERY different. I made an assumption that the parent did
Not know/agree. I am sorry for not asking for clarity.
<<. I am discussing the points,
not the poster.>>
Same! :o)
<<One of the reasons we pick up my nephews on occassion is to allow them to
live in an environment free of drugging, verbal and physical abuse, and the
other problems of their existence that they are forced to live with EVERY
DAY, and maybe show them that life doesn't have to be that bad all the
time. They may choose to change their situations or attitudes later in
life because of that taste of life from "the other side", or not. But we
felt it was important to give them that taste.>>
I agree that this is a loving thing to do for them. I have similar family
members and have recently decided to spend more time with my nephews so that
they can see a "normal" (HAH!) family.
Thank you Marc, for helping me to think a little differently!

~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

alaurashome

> One of the reasons we pick up my nephews on occassion is to allow
them to
> live in an environment free of drugging, verbal and physical
abuse, and the
> other problems of their existence that they are forced to live
with EVERY
> DAY, and maybe show them that life doesn't have to be that bad all
the
> time. They may choose to change their situations or attitudes
later in
> life because of that taste of life from "the other side", or not.
But we
> felt it was important to give them that taste.


Marc,

I was a child that lived with verbal and physical abuse that was due
to my father's use of alcohol and my mother's inability to stop
him. I prayed every night for them to divorce or to just leave me
alone.

I don't know if my grandparents knew about the abuse, but they made
all the difference in my life. Their house was a calm and loving
place where I could relax. Those brief visits gave me hope and kept
me from suicide or insanity. I commend you efforts. I am sure that
you are having more of an impact on their lives than you could
imagine.

Alaura

Sue

>
> I was a child that lived with verbal and physical abuse that was due
> to my father's use of alcohol and my mother's inability to stop
> him. I prayed every night for them to divorce or to just leave me
> alone.
>
> I don't know if my grandparents knew about the abuse, but they made
> all the difference in my life. Their house was a calm and loving
> place where I could relax. Those brief visits gave me hope and kept
> me from suicide or insanity. I commend you efforts. I am sure that
> you are having more of an impact on their lives than you could
> imagine.
>
> Alaura
>
I can so relate to this however it wasn't until I moved out of home that I
realised that what I considered to be a normal environment was indeed far
from it. It took me a very long time to to gain a balance of what "normal"
was like. Abuse in childhood has so many far more reaching consequenses. One
example would be that my boundaries would be so weak that I would take crap
over and over again thinking it was normal and then explode out of control
when I couldn't take it any longer. It has been a huge learning curve to
acknowledge my own true feelings, having trust in them and to respond
appropriately - meaning when the situation first happens instead of weeks or
months later after continual episodes.

Sue
>


>
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Alan & Brenda Leonard

on 6/15/02 07:38, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> I can so relate to this however it wasn't until I moved out of home that I
> realised that what I considered to be a normal environment was indeed far
> from it.

Yes. I can totally relate to this. It is always reassuring to hear that
I'm not the only one. It has been very hard for me to become more "normal"
(not that most people would consider me normal on any given day.....!), but
you know what I mean. Things that seem so normal to me, I know are not, and
I have to stop and think rather than react. My husband grew up with
wonderful parenting, and it seems to be easier for him to be a good parent.
He has examples to look to. Unschooling helps with this so much. I think
it's because it's a whole different path than the one I took, so I don't
have skewed ideas about how it looked for me. Does that make any sense?

brenda