labels
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/2002 10:13:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
together, are called ADD.
The question is whether or not it is useful IN an unschooling environment, to
use the label on our kids.
Which is REALLY just part of the bigger question of using any labels on
unschooled kids.
If my kids were IN school, I'd want them labeled as Gifted - because the
gifted kids get extra attention and resources, etc.
At home, as unschoolers, labelling them as "gifted" would do what? Make them
conceited? Make them think that their own particular kind of intelligence is
what counts and that the really WONDERFUL car mechanic we have is somehow
less gifted because he has a different kind of intelligence? I can't see any
good coming from labelling them with anything at all - as unschoolers.
I'd use more descriptive words for REAL traits, instead. In the case of
giftedness, I have a child with extraordinary interpersonal intelligence and
I have ALWAYS talked to her about her amazing ability to understand people
and their behaviors and motivations, etc. She has always needed to talk about
it a lot because it is NOT always easy to have much greater understanding of
human behavior than everyone around you. We don't call her "gifted" - but we
might talk about what its like to have such understanding as she has. Another
daughter loves language - words, meanings, foreign languges, and all kinds of
literary expression. We don't call her "gifted." We just know that she's
interested in words and languages and we support that. Labelling her wouldn't
change how we live because we support and facilitate her own particular
specific way of being.
The traits that, put together, are called ADD are still just personal,
individual traits and not all kids or adults have all of them and they can be
expressed very differently in different people. As a parent of a kid with a
lot of those traits, I'd want to read the ADD literature, etc., to get ideas
and support. But I wouldn't want my children to have that label in their
heads anymore, maybe less, than I'd want them to have the "gifted" label in
their heads.
I would use the traits my child actually has -- when talking to my child
about her own personality and behavior - but not the label.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> For those of you out there that may be interested in the veracity ofNobody questions whether a set of behaviors, a syndrome, exist that, put
> ADD, here are a couple of URL's to get you started on making your own
> decision.
together, are called ADD.
The question is whether or not it is useful IN an unschooling environment, to
use the label on our kids.
Which is REALLY just part of the bigger question of using any labels on
unschooled kids.
If my kids were IN school, I'd want them labeled as Gifted - because the
gifted kids get extra attention and resources, etc.
At home, as unschoolers, labelling them as "gifted" would do what? Make them
conceited? Make them think that their own particular kind of intelligence is
what counts and that the really WONDERFUL car mechanic we have is somehow
less gifted because he has a different kind of intelligence? I can't see any
good coming from labelling them with anything at all - as unschoolers.
I'd use more descriptive words for REAL traits, instead. In the case of
giftedness, I have a child with extraordinary interpersonal intelligence and
I have ALWAYS talked to her about her amazing ability to understand people
and their behaviors and motivations, etc. She has always needed to talk about
it a lot because it is NOT always easy to have much greater understanding of
human behavior than everyone around you. We don't call her "gifted" - but we
might talk about what its like to have such understanding as she has. Another
daughter loves language - words, meanings, foreign languges, and all kinds of
literary expression. We don't call her "gifted." We just know that she's
interested in words and languages and we support that. Labelling her wouldn't
change how we live because we support and facilitate her own particular
specific way of being.
The traits that, put together, are called ADD are still just personal,
individual traits and not all kids or adults have all of them and they can be
expressed very differently in different people. As a parent of a kid with a
lot of those traits, I'd want to read the ADD literature, etc., to get ideas
and support. But I wouldn't want my children to have that label in their
heads anymore, maybe less, than I'd want them to have the "gifted" label in
their heads.
I would use the traits my child actually has -- when talking to my child
about her own personality and behavior - but not the label.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
"The traits that, put together, are called ADD are still just personal,
individual traits and not all kids or adults have all of them and they can be
expressed very differently in different people. As a parent of a kid with a
lot of those traits, I'd want to read the ADD literature, etc., to get ideas
and support. But I wouldn't want my children to have that label in their
heads anymore, maybe less, than I'd want them to have the "gifted" label in
their heads.
I would use the traits my child actually has -- when talking to my child
about her own personality and behavior - but not the label. "
Dear Pam and All,
I thought your response to the ADD discussion was very well put!
I would like to introduce myself. We are new to homeschooling. We started in
January after I pulled my son out of school. He was truly miserable after
having been mercilessly bullied, teased, excluded and treated like a weirdo.
He is an extremely bright 13 year old individualist. He too was labeled "ADD"
by the school system (and me, I'm ashamed to say). That label that I
initially embraced (so that I could say "It's not my fault, it's this rotten
condition") did nothing for him but justify adults at the school treating him
like a weirdo and imbecile. They dumbed down his work and radiated lowered
expectations like some sort of cancer. The parents followed their lead, and
the children followed the school adults and parents' lead. At one time we
tried Ritalin. He became an obedient miserable unimaginative robot. Ritalin
made us realize the wonderful side of his so-called condition, because
suddenly that brilliant spark was absent. Over the years I've met many kids
labeled as ADD, and the only thing that they all seem to have in common is
their individuality. Yes, they can be frustrating, but that is because they
refuse to behave like servile sheep.
Although we are doing a sort of eclectic school at home I am fascinated by
the unschooling philosophy and perhaps someday I'll have the guts to try it.
I believe that if we had unschooled from the beginning it would have been a
good thing. But we are starting rather late in the game, and there are so
many things that I want to be certain he learns. Public school was such an
incredible waste of time and energy.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
individual traits and not all kids or adults have all of them and they can be
expressed very differently in different people. As a parent of a kid with a
lot of those traits, I'd want to read the ADD literature, etc., to get ideas
and support. But I wouldn't want my children to have that label in their
heads anymore, maybe less, than I'd want them to have the "gifted" label in
their heads.
I would use the traits my child actually has -- when talking to my child
about her own personality and behavior - but not the label. "
Dear Pam and All,
I thought your response to the ADD discussion was very well put!
I would like to introduce myself. We are new to homeschooling. We started in
January after I pulled my son out of school. He was truly miserable after
having been mercilessly bullied, teased, excluded and treated like a weirdo.
He is an extremely bright 13 year old individualist. He too was labeled "ADD"
by the school system (and me, I'm ashamed to say). That label that I
initially embraced (so that I could say "It's not my fault, it's this rotten
condition") did nothing for him but justify adults at the school treating him
like a weirdo and imbecile. They dumbed down his work and radiated lowered
expectations like some sort of cancer. The parents followed their lead, and
the children followed the school adults and parents' lead. At one time we
tried Ritalin. He became an obedient miserable unimaginative robot. Ritalin
made us realize the wonderful side of his so-called condition, because
suddenly that brilliant spark was absent. Over the years I've met many kids
labeled as ADD, and the only thing that they all seem to have in common is
their individuality. Yes, they can be frustrating, but that is because they
refuse to behave like servile sheep.
Although we are doing a sort of eclectic school at home I am fascinated by
the unschooling philosophy and perhaps someday I'll have the guts to try it.
I believe that if we had unschooled from the beginning it would have been a
good thing. But we are starting rather late in the game, and there are so
many things that I want to be certain he learns. Public school was such an
incredible waste of time and energy.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/03 6:46:45 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I've never heard of a physiological test for LD,ADD, ADHD, or DIS.
Everything I've seen is always a symptom checklist. Can anyone elighten me?
There is no brain scan that I have ever heard of that will show ADD!! I can
only speak for FAS and ADD since that's my brothers difficulites.
The FAS is a real, true condition, brought on by his alcoholic birth mother
(he is adopted), the ADD was only real in the school system. It wouldn't have
mattered, nor would the label have been necessary out of that system.
He was medicated and told he had a disability and I believe with all my heart
that it helped lead him to the drug addicted, prison life he now lives.
My parent's did the best they knew how with the diagnoses they were given by
the phsycologist (NOT from a brain scan).
They were wrong. They loved him dearly, but they were wrong.
Some people would rather hold onto labels than move into the life of
accepting their children for who they are, right now today, and just BE with
them (not talking about real life disabilities once again, don't want to
offend anyone dealing with those).
There isn't much we can do to help someone that needs labels more than they
need to honor their children for who they are.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< I've never heard of a physiological test for LD,ADD, ADHD, or DIS.
Everything I've seen is always a symptom checklist. Can anyone elighten me?
>>You aren't the one that needs enlightening Mary.
There is no brain scan that I have ever heard of that will show ADD!! I can
only speak for FAS and ADD since that's my brothers difficulites.
The FAS is a real, true condition, brought on by his alcoholic birth mother
(he is adopted), the ADD was only real in the school system. It wouldn't have
mattered, nor would the label have been necessary out of that system.
He was medicated and told he had a disability and I believe with all my heart
that it helped lead him to the drug addicted, prison life he now lives.
My parent's did the best they knew how with the diagnoses they were given by
the phsycologist (NOT from a brain scan).
They were wrong. They loved him dearly, but they were wrong.
Some people would rather hold onto labels than move into the life of
accepting their children for who they are, right now today, and just BE with
them (not talking about real life disabilities once again, don't want to
offend anyone dealing with those).
There isn't much we can do to help someone that needs labels more than they
need to honor their children for who they are.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2003 8:35:36 PM Central Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
you are stuck on the labels issue, I have seen no one on this
list who needs lables for thier kids than to honor their kids.
So who are you talking about ?
The parents who have children with disabilites whether it
is physical or mental issues on this list, have been the most
kind and insightful people. I also consider this an insult as
one of these parents.
Are we dealing again with the "word" game again? NOW<
we can't use special needs, as you don't like it? And now
some of us have to tread lightly when writing? Come on,
give me a break.
Also, how dare you even make comments in regards to
a group of people, and make accusations of not accepting
these children for who they are? I do not know of any
parent of this issue not go above and beyond as a parent.
If I have misunderstood your ideals here, please let me know
how I have mistaken your post.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Some people would rather hold onto labels than move into the life ofAre you kidding me? Think about this,
> accepting their children for who they are, right now today, and just BE
> with
> them (not talking about real life disabilities once again, don't want to
> offend anyone dealing with those).
> There isn't much we can do to help someone that needs labels more than they
>
> need to honor their children for who they are.
you are stuck on the labels issue, I have seen no one on this
list who needs lables for thier kids than to honor their kids.
So who are you talking about ?
The parents who have children with disabilites whether it
is physical or mental issues on this list, have been the most
kind and insightful people. I also consider this an insult as
one of these parents.
Are we dealing again with the "word" game again? NOW<
we can't use special needs, as you don't like it? And now
some of us have to tread lightly when writing? Come on,
give me a break.
Also, how dare you even make comments in regards to
a group of people, and make accusations of not accepting
these children for who they are? I do not know of any
parent of this issue not go above and beyond as a parent.
If I have misunderstood your ideals here, please let me know
how I have mistaken your post.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>He was medicated and told he had a disability and I believe with all myMy dear, seet, and now dead brother Marty grew up in the 40's and 50's.
>>heart that it helped lead him to the drug addicted, prison life he now
>>lives.>>
Parenting was so different then. He grew up with only the labels of
troublemaker, smartass, and JD. He spent years as a heroin and then a
methadone addict. He spent years in prison. I'm sure if he were in the
school system as a child now, his labels would be more like ADHD, Dyslexia
or SID. Kinder maybe? Yes. Helpful? I don't think so. They would still be
labelling what was wrong with instead of celebrating what was right with him
He was bright. VERY bright. He was charming beyond belief. His passion as a
child was making scale models of buildings he knew and visited. As an adult
he was a leiutenant in the Fire Dept., generous to a fault and owned his own
business. He went to his death still unconvinced that he was a worthy soul.
A perfect being. Special BEFORE his weak areas, not in spite of them.
>>My parent's did the best they knew how>>Mine did too. And they LOVED him fiercely in spite of it all. They didn't
know how to reach him. No one ever told them it was okay to be
unconventional. They didn't know how to let go and help him move with his
strengths.
But I do. I know that I can label my kids' with places they can improve and
hold that in my heart as part of Who They Are, or I can let it go. I can
celebrate and talk about what makes them good and right and special. Even in
the midst of flying tantrums and teenage moods. I can reassure them day
after day that Who They Are is all they need to be. They can change some
behaviors, they can challenge their minds, they can buff up their bodies.
But in the end they are Who They Are and that's good.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/03 9:28:31 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Are we dealing again with the "word" game again? NOW<
we can't use special needs, as you don't like it? >>
I have never said anything about the term "special needs" not once. Are you
reading, or knee jerk reacting?
I don't like the term "disabled" and I explained why.
As a person that has cared for chilren with mental disabilities including
very real things like Downs Syndrome (hell, I've had coworkers with Downs
too), dealt with ADD and FAS in my family, been around children with intense
sensitivities (my nephews, niece and my youngest child would all fit the
extremely sensitive/needy/temper tantrumy descriptions) I take offense to
your tone that I don't seem to have a clue.
"Also, how dare you even make comments in regards to
a group of people, and make accusations of not accepting
these children for who they are?"
This is a pretty testy tone for someone to take when they just posted that
they will "write what they want as a list member".
You seem to have Teresa's ability to read accusations into general comments,
not even aimed at ANYONE in particular. Phew! It must be draining to go
around assuming so much about what folks are saying.....
Here was my comment that seemed to set you off:
need the ADD or ADHD label. I dont think it's the best way to see your child,
holding onto unecessary labels.
It isn't honoring them for who they are as well as you can without the label.
It's how a person sees their child.
Are you saying that a parent seeing a disability, where it's just a
uniqueness of the individual, is going to be able to honor that child as well?
Because I disagree.
But once again, a general comment got turned into an assumption that it was
about a specific person, when it wasn't.
To me, that's a sign that there is something there for you to think about.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< Are we dealing again with the "word" game again? NOW<
we can't use special needs, as you don't like it? >>
I have never said anything about the term "special needs" not once. Are you
reading, or knee jerk reacting?
I don't like the term "disabled" and I explained why.
As a person that has cared for chilren with mental disabilities including
very real things like Downs Syndrome (hell, I've had coworkers with Downs
too), dealt with ADD and FAS in my family, been around children with intense
sensitivities (my nephews, niece and my youngest child would all fit the
extremely sensitive/needy/temper tantrumy descriptions) I take offense to
your tone that I don't seem to have a clue.
"Also, how dare you even make comments in regards to
a group of people, and make accusations of not accepting
these children for who they are?"
This is a pretty testy tone for someone to take when they just posted that
they will "write what they want as a list member".
You seem to have Teresa's ability to read accusations into general comments,
not even aimed at ANYONE in particular. Phew! It must be draining to go
around assuming so much about what folks are saying.....
Here was my comment that seemed to set you off:
> Some people would rather hold onto labels than move into the life ofRead the SOME PEOPLE....it's a general comment about how people think they
> accepting their children for who they are, right now today, and just BE
> with
> them (not talking about real life disabilities once again, don't want to
> offend anyone dealing with those).
> There isn't much we can do to help someone that needs labels more than they
>
> need to honor their children for who they are.
need the ADD or ADHD label. I dont think it's the best way to see your child,
holding onto unecessary labels.
It isn't honoring them for who they are as well as you can without the label.
It's how a person sees their child.
Are you saying that a parent seeing a disability, where it's just a
uniqueness of the individual, is going to be able to honor that child as well?
Because I disagree.
But once again, a general comment got turned into an assumption that it was
about a specific person, when it wasn't.
To me, that's a sign that there is something there for you to think about.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2003 9:46:59 PM Central Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
zenmomma@... writes:
> He spent years in prison. I'm sure if he were in the[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> school system as a child now, his labels would be more like ADHD, Dyslexia
> or SID. Kinder maybe? Yes. Helpful? I don't think so.
>
> Interesting topic.
> When we look at these disabilities, maybe what we know now vs. 20
> years ago, would have changed alot of peoples lives. Maybe it would
> have saved alot of heartache for family members.
> I see the logic of what I am writing, it sounds really good, but alas,
> maybe you are right, its 2003, and still my son was taunted, teased
> treated like an outcast for being different in PS.
> Nothing changes if nothing changes?
>
> Linda
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2003 9:53:30 PM Central Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
taken it out of context. thats ok, don't worry about it.
Read the SOME PEOPLE....it's a general comment about how people think they
need the ADD or ADHD label. I dont think it's the best way to see your child,
holding onto unecessary labels.
I agree that inorder to help a child grow and flourish, one has to step out
of the circle that has been drawn by doctors, teachers, etc.
A parent has to go beyond the perimiters set, and recognize that one can
open the world to this child.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> y tone for someone to take when they just posted thatThis was not my word for word statement and you have
> they will "write what they want as a list member".
taken it out of context. thats ok, don't worry about it.
Read the SOME PEOPLE....it's a general comment about how people think they
need the ADD or ADHD label. I dont think it's the best way to see your child,
holding onto unecessary labels.
I agree that inorder to help a child grow and flourish, one has to step out
of the circle that has been drawn by doctors, teachers, etc.
A parent has to go beyond the perimiters set, and recognize that one can
open the world to this child.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/03 7:57:24 PM, encadia@... writes:
<< Are we dealing again with the "word" game again? >>
We are dealing in words.
It's not a game.
Lives are changed here.
Words can be hurtful.
Labelling kids can hurt them. A deaf kid will know he's deaf.
A child whose attention span doesn't fit school's 50 minute lesson
requirements does NOT need be labelled if he's unschooled. A child who is
great at spatial and math but really not so great at reading until he's a
little older does not need to be labelled if he's unschooled.
<<
Are you kidding me? Think about this,
you are stuck on the labels issue, I have seen no one on this
list who needs lables for thier kids than to honor their kids.>>
Whether you've seen it or not, it happens.
Whether there are any on this list at the moment doing it, it happens.
<<The parents who have children with disabilites whether it
is physical or mental issues on this list, have been the most
kind and insightful people. >>
Did you miss the posts that said that there are kids here who would have been
labelled had they gone to school, but since they didn't go to school they
weren't?
What constitutes a disability? A doctor's diagnosis or the symptoms?
The parents desire to label the symptoms?
If a parent refuses the diagnosis or the symptoms, choosing instead to honor
each child as an unlabelled, uncompared individual, do they then go into your
category of not knowing anything about special needs kids?
If you think this is nothing but word games, maybe dealing in words isn't
your strength. That's okay. It's not a disability not to be great with
words, but the things I'm really not good at, I don't jump in and mess up. I
don't play rugby or volleyball; I don't keep books for any clubs I'm in.
Others can do that better. I'm competent to sing. Some people have no
business pushing forward and singing, if they can't carry a tune, don't know
the lyrics, can't harmonize or read the music (whatever's involved in
whatever singing project is at hand.
So I sing and I write. I don't do sports or bookkeeping.
If you think discussions about terminology and categorization are 'word
games,' maybe you're trying to sing without being able to hear the
differences in the tones we're using.
<<And now some of us have to tread lightly when writing? Come on,
give me a break.>>
"Tread lightly" meaning not go beyond what they know?
"Tread lightly" meaning not be hateful or disruptive?
<<Also, how dare you even make comments in regards to
a group of people, and make accusations of not accepting
these children for who they are? >>
I have seen many homeschooling parents look for excuses and labels to justify
why their children are 'behind.' They would rather declare their children to
be learning disabled and ADHD than to change their methods or risk being
blamed for not being good homeschooling moms. I could name you names of
people I know in person, but I won't do it.
If you hang around homeschoolers long enough you'll see it too, unless you
don't want to see it.
Sandra
<< Are we dealing again with the "word" game again? >>
We are dealing in words.
It's not a game.
Lives are changed here.
Words can be hurtful.
Labelling kids can hurt them. A deaf kid will know he's deaf.
A child whose attention span doesn't fit school's 50 minute lesson
requirements does NOT need be labelled if he's unschooled. A child who is
great at spatial and math but really not so great at reading until he's a
little older does not need to be labelled if he's unschooled.
<<
Are you kidding me? Think about this,
you are stuck on the labels issue, I have seen no one on this
list who needs lables for thier kids than to honor their kids.>>
Whether you've seen it or not, it happens.
Whether there are any on this list at the moment doing it, it happens.
<<The parents who have children with disabilites whether it
is physical or mental issues on this list, have been the most
kind and insightful people. >>
Did you miss the posts that said that there are kids here who would have been
labelled had they gone to school, but since they didn't go to school they
weren't?
What constitutes a disability? A doctor's diagnosis or the symptoms?
The parents desire to label the symptoms?
If a parent refuses the diagnosis or the symptoms, choosing instead to honor
each child as an unlabelled, uncompared individual, do they then go into your
category of not knowing anything about special needs kids?
If you think this is nothing but word games, maybe dealing in words isn't
your strength. That's okay. It's not a disability not to be great with
words, but the things I'm really not good at, I don't jump in and mess up. I
don't play rugby or volleyball; I don't keep books for any clubs I'm in.
Others can do that better. I'm competent to sing. Some people have no
business pushing forward and singing, if they can't carry a tune, don't know
the lyrics, can't harmonize or read the music (whatever's involved in
whatever singing project is at hand.
So I sing and I write. I don't do sports or bookkeeping.
If you think discussions about terminology and categorization are 'word
games,' maybe you're trying to sing without being able to hear the
differences in the tones we're using.
<<And now some of us have to tread lightly when writing? Come on,
give me a break.>>
"Tread lightly" meaning not go beyond what they know?
"Tread lightly" meaning not be hateful or disruptive?
<<Also, how dare you even make comments in regards to
a group of people, and make accusations of not accepting
these children for who they are? >>
I have seen many homeschooling parents look for excuses and labels to justify
why their children are 'behind.' They would rather declare their children to
be learning disabled and ADHD than to change their methods or risk being
blamed for not being good homeschooling moms. I could name you names of
people I know in person, but I won't do it.
If you hang around homeschoolers long enough you'll see it too, unless you
don't want to see it.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
In a message dated 2/16/03 7:57:24 PM, encadia@... writes:
<< Are we dealing again with the "word" game again? >>
Again??
You've been on this list 4 days, right?
Or were you here before under a different name or something?
Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
<< Are we dealing again with the "word" game again? >>
Again??
You've been on this list 4 days, right?
Or were you here before under a different name or something?
Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/03 11:56:52 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< You've been on this list 4 days, right?
Or were you here before under a different name or something? >>
Encadia's been here a month. Another testy person joined a couple of days
ago and attacked, but I don't remember the name.
I don't care whether it's a day or a month, though--newer members should
assume that people who've been unschooling longer than they have might
actually know what they're talking about, rather than being so rude and
insulting.
Sandra
<< You've been on this list 4 days, right?
Or were you here before under a different name or something? >>
Encadia's been here a month. Another testy person joined a couple of days
ago and attacked, but I don't remember the name.
I don't care whether it's a day or a month, though--newer members should
assume that people who've been unschooling longer than they have might
actually know what they're talking about, rather than being so rude and
insulting.
Sandra
joanne comito
>needed to read this morning. I spent a restless night
> But I do. I know that I can label my kids' with
> places they can improve and
> hold that in my heart as part of Who They Are, or I
> can let it go. I can
> celebrate and talk about what makes them good and
> right and special. Even in
> the midst of flying tantrums and teenage moods. I
> can reassure them day
> after day that Who They Are is all they need to be.
> They can change some
> behaviors, they can challenge their minds, they can
> buff up their bodies.
> But in the end they are Who They Are and that's
> good.
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>
> This brought tears to my eyes. It's exactly what I
ruminating about my daughter and her difficulty making
friends. She is such a beautiful and wonderful
person, but has trouble being who she is in groups of
people. I need to remember what you wrote here, so I
don't view her from a "how can I fix this/her?" place.
Thank you.
Joanne
>__________________________________________________
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The Robbins' Nest
When I was still working ( for pay), there was a radiologist who was doing MRI's on patients (for free I think) with diagnosed ADHD. So, I know Dr's do the scans..... but I don't know how much the scan adds to the diagnosis and/or treatment. This was about 5 or 6 years ago. Here is a site that talks about it a little.
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00026546
Kimber
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00026546
Kimber
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/17/03 2:31:03 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< A perfect being. Special BEFORE his weak areas, not in spite of them. >>
THat is so sad Mary, I'm sorry.
The heartache of seeing someone you love be so destructive is heartwrenching
at times. I remember the little curly headed, dark eyed toddler that stared
in shock when he came to be with our family.
He had chubby cheeks and an impish grin......it just kills me that his
problems ended up defining his life. I wish I could change something for him,
but I can't.
I can only do as you said. Give my own children the wonderful childhood that
they deserve and let them be who they are...perfect and whole.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< A perfect being. Special BEFORE his weak areas, not in spite of them. >>
THat is so sad Mary, I'm sorry.
The heartache of seeing someone you love be so destructive is heartwrenching
at times. I remember the little curly headed, dark eyed toddler that stared
in shock when he came to be with our family.
He had chubby cheeks and an impish grin......it just kills me that his
problems ended up defining his life. I wish I could change something for him,
but I can't.
I can only do as you said. Give my own children the wonderful childhood that
they deserve and let them be who they are...perfect and whole.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
TheDanickes
<<Did you miss the posts that said that there are kids here who would have
been labelled had they gone to school, but since they didn't go to school
they weren't?>>
This is the very thing that put us on our path to unschooling. Our oldest
daughter went to PS because it was the thing to do. I had never questioned
the system at that point in my life and I had loved school as a child, so
sending her to school was status quo.
They first notified us that Ari was "behind" in her reading skills at the
beginning of 1st grade. She was six. The school sent her to be tutored at
a certain time in the afternoon while the other students did regular reading
in the classroom. I had no idea at that point what kind of damage this was
doing to her self-esteem and her love of books, but the simple act of
labeling her a "slow reader" started her on a downward spiral. She began to
fall behind in other areas she'd previously displayed no difficulties with.
The day she came home and told me she'd been moved to "the dumb math class"
I knew we had to do something drastic. We pulled her from school and
haven't looked back.
It took about a year and a half before Ari would even consider reading a
book. She's nearly 12 now and while she's not a "perfect" reader, she does
read for pleasure and makes out just fine. She's heavy into Shel
Silverstein right now, and has such a love for satire. When I think of how
we'd likely be struggling and fighting were she still in the system, it
makes me cringe.
I think labels sometimes make people more comfortable because they confirm
that something is really *wrong* and the differences in the child aren't
anyone's fault. But why do a child's differences have to be someone's
fault? Why can't they just be seen as something unique about the child?
And just to clarify, I'm speaking of learning differences, not physical
differences. Although I have 2 friends who have children with physical
differences who make homeschooling work quite well. One is an unschooler
and the other is not.
Liz
been labelled had they gone to school, but since they didn't go to school
they weren't?>>
This is the very thing that put us on our path to unschooling. Our oldest
daughter went to PS because it was the thing to do. I had never questioned
the system at that point in my life and I had loved school as a child, so
sending her to school was status quo.
They first notified us that Ari was "behind" in her reading skills at the
beginning of 1st grade. She was six. The school sent her to be tutored at
a certain time in the afternoon while the other students did regular reading
in the classroom. I had no idea at that point what kind of damage this was
doing to her self-esteem and her love of books, but the simple act of
labeling her a "slow reader" started her on a downward spiral. She began to
fall behind in other areas she'd previously displayed no difficulties with.
The day she came home and told me she'd been moved to "the dumb math class"
I knew we had to do something drastic. We pulled her from school and
haven't looked back.
It took about a year and a half before Ari would even consider reading a
book. She's nearly 12 now and while she's not a "perfect" reader, she does
read for pleasure and makes out just fine. She's heavy into Shel
Silverstein right now, and has such a love for satire. When I think of how
we'd likely be struggling and fighting were she still in the system, it
makes me cringe.
I think labels sometimes make people more comfortable because they confirm
that something is really *wrong* and the differences in the child aren't
anyone's fault. But why do a child's differences have to be someone's
fault? Why can't they just be seen as something unique about the child?
And just to clarify, I'm speaking of learning differences, not physical
differences. Although I have 2 friends who have children with physical
differences who make homeschooling work quite well. One is an unschooler
and the other is not.
Liz
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/17/2003 12:27:28 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
SandraDodd@... writes:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have seen many homeschooling parents look for excuses and labels to
> justify
> why their children are 'behind.' They would rather declare their children
> to
> be learning disabled and ADHD than to change their methods or risk being
> blamed for not being good homeschooling moms.
>
> Ok, believe it or not this is where we do agree. In the first year of
> homeschooling,
> I had to constantly change and revise my methods in order to find what
> worked
> and what didn't.
>
> Linda
[email protected]
I am talking in regards to words that people have used in their
posts, as I have, and found that certain "words" are not to be
used here.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
posts, as I have, and found that certain "words" are not to be
used here.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I have been a member of the list before.
under a different name. Sandra you and I have talked about
this.
testy, I don't think I have reduced myself to name calling.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
under a different name. Sandra you and I have talked about
this.
testy, I don't think I have reduced myself to name calling.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/17/03 10:12:38 AM, encadia@... writes:
<< Ok, believe it or not this is where we do agree. >>
Why would you put "believe it or not" about agreeing with me?
<<In the first year of
more when they move to unschooling.
The things people are saying here are said to help others make those changes
more smoothly, for the sake of the children involved.
If you agree with me or others who have known these things for a long time,
it's not a "believe it or not" situation.
Sandra
<< Ok, believe it or not this is where we do agree. >>
Why would you put "believe it or not" about agreeing with me?
<<In the first year of
> homeschooling,Of course you did. Everybody changes when they homeschool. They change even
> I had to constantly change and revise my methods in order to find what
> worked
> and what didn't. >>
more when they move to unschooling.
The things people are saying here are said to help others make those changes
more smoothly, for the sake of the children involved.
If you agree with me or others who have known these things for a long time,
it's not a "believe it or not" situation.
Sandra
zenmomma *
> > Interesting topic.Maybe. What I've seen is trading one heartache for another. Going from "your
> > When we look at these disabilities, maybe what we know now vs. 20
> > years ago, would have changed alot of peoples lives. Maybe it would
> > have saved alot of heartache for family members.
kid is bad" to "your kid is damaged." I don't think those are the only two
choices. I personally have found a better way. My kids share many traits
with their Uncle Marty. I celebrate them and try to find ways to help them
understand the positives of Who They Are.
> > I see the logic of what I am writing, it sounds really good, but alas,But it HAS changed in our lives! That's what I'm saying. My kids are not
> > maybe you are right, its 2003, and still my son was taunted, teased
> > treated like an outcast for being different in PS.
> > Nothing changes if nothing changes?
taunted, teased or treated like outcasts. And it's not solely because
they're out of school, although that is a BIG part of it. They understand
themselves first and foremost to be okay just as they are. Sounds trite and
logical and simple, but we had to work to get here. We still work at it
everyday. They are not defined by a quirk or intensity or momentary
outburst. They are first and foremost bright and lovable and *able* beings.
The rest is just stuff to be worked on and worked out.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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[email protected]
You wrote: <<testy, I don't think I have reduced myself to name calling.>>
The other day you posted some overly rude things in response to a post about
honoring individual children which ended "...they need to honor their
children for who they are."
*Are you kidding me?
*Are we dealing again with the "word" game again?
* And now some of us have to tread lightly when writing? Come on,
give me a break.
*Also, how dare you even make comments
"Testy" is not much of a name to call that kind of response.
It means irritable or touchy or reactive.
Instead of writing about how others write, and instead of challenging helpful
unschooling moms with noise like "how dare you" and "give me a break," how
about you write about your own children and how unschooling works at your
house?
If you have no children or unschooling at your house that's okay, you can
just read. But I don't think you have just as much "right" to express your
irritation and negativity on the list as others have to express their joy and
hope. The purpose of the list isn't to make people feel better about
labeling their kids, or to feel bad about their progress with unschooling.
Sandra
The other day you posted some overly rude things in response to a post about
honoring individual children which ended "...they need to honor their
children for who they are."
*Are you kidding me?
*Are we dealing again with the "word" game again?
* And now some of us have to tread lightly when writing? Come on,
give me a break.
*Also, how dare you even make comments
"Testy" is not much of a name to call that kind of response.
It means irritable or touchy or reactive.
Instead of writing about how others write, and instead of challenging helpful
unschooling moms with noise like "how dare you" and "give me a break," how
about you write about your own children and how unschooling works at your
house?
If you have no children or unschooling at your house that's okay, you can
just read. But I don't think you have just as much "right" to express your
irritation and negativity on the list as others have to express their joy and
hope. The purpose of the list isn't to make people feel better about
labeling their kids, or to feel bad about their progress with unschooling.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/17/03 10:50:33 AM, encadia@... writes:
<< I am talking in regards to words that people have used in their
posts, as I have, and found that certain "words" are not to be
used here. >>
Words (they're real words, not so-called words, which you imply by using
quotation marks) indicate what the writer is thinking.
If a contributor talks about teaching her learning disabled child, it's
HIGHLY likely that someone is going to try to nudge her toward thinking of
how her child can learn just as ALL unschoolers learn, without the teaching
and without the label. At her own pace in her own way.
<< I am talking in regards to words that people have used in their
posts, as I have, and found that certain "words" are not to be
used here.>>
How about talking about unschooling instead of about people and posting?
My kids have learned lots that I didn't bring to them. Helping them find
more and more opportunities to learn is WAY more useful than teaching them.
It doesn't matter one single bit whether if they were in school they would be
ahead or behind or misunderstanding directions or "gifted" or "special,"
because each of them is living his or her own, real, whole life NOW. REALLY
living, and really learning.
They have learned more without even realizing it was happening than all the
information that would have been on all the tests they would have taken if
they had been in school already for twelve or thirteen years.
Most of us learned more outside school than inside too, probably. But these
guys are SOLIDLY and fully learning without sorting out what's "important"
and what's "trivia," because in the end none of it is trivia if it all fits
together to increase their understanding.
Sandra
<< I am talking in regards to words that people have used in their
posts, as I have, and found that certain "words" are not to be
used here. >>
Words (they're real words, not so-called words, which you imply by using
quotation marks) indicate what the writer is thinking.
If a contributor talks about teaching her learning disabled child, it's
HIGHLY likely that someone is going to try to nudge her toward thinking of
how her child can learn just as ALL unschoolers learn, without the teaching
and without the label. At her own pace in her own way.
<< I am talking in regards to words that people have used in their
posts, as I have, and found that certain "words" are not to be
used here.>>
How about talking about unschooling instead of about people and posting?
My kids have learned lots that I didn't bring to them. Helping them find
more and more opportunities to learn is WAY more useful than teaching them.
It doesn't matter one single bit whether if they were in school they would be
ahead or behind or misunderstanding directions or "gifted" or "special,"
because each of them is living his or her own, real, whole life NOW. REALLY
living, and really learning.
They have learned more without even realizing it was happening than all the
information that would have been on all the tests they would have taken if
they had been in school already for twelve or thirteen years.
Most of us learned more outside school than inside too, probably. But these
guys are SOLIDLY and fully learning without sorting out what's "important"
and what's "trivia," because in the end none of it is trivia if it all fits
together to increase their understanding.
Sandra
zenmomma *
>I am talking in regards to words that people have used in theirHow about certain "ideas"-the idea of labels like ADD, LD, etc. being
>posts, as I have, and found that certain "words" are not to be
>used here.
helpful or not-are being discussed, debated, and examined here?
No one is saying that people cannot use any term to they like to describe
their child. But if someone else wants to discuss why they think there might
be a better way, well that's what this list is about. :o)
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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zenmomma *
>>testy, I don't think I have reduced myself to name calling.>>Huh?
This has been said before, but it's so helpful to repeat it as a mantra. The
long standing members of this group, the experienced unschoolers here, the
folks donating their time and energy online and IRL trying to help others
understand unschooling, are NOT out to tear anyone down. We don't know most
people here as anything other than a screen name and a question or comment.
The newer members of this group, the new and not as experienced unschoolers
are looking for a way. If they are here, it must mean it's because they
think that talking with more experienced folks will help them get on the
path the are seeing, but not yet on.
People have commented to me that I am very calm. That my zen nature really
does come through in my posts. If that's true, it's because I assume every
one here is coming from a good place. I try to act not react. I've seen some
snarky remarks thrown my way in the last couple of days. I let them flow
past me. Why would I want to capture them, hold them and react to them? Much
better for my soul to let them float on by so that I can concentrate on
being my best self.
I try to picture the best parts of every person on this list, even when it
seems hard or impossible. It's what I do for my kids and what I try to do
with all my human interactions.
We're comrades. We're allies in unschooling. We want the best for each
other. We disagree. We agree. It is what is.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/17/2003 12:32:29 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
SandraDodd@... writes:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If a contributor talks about teaching her learning disabled child, it's
> HIGHLY likely that someone is going to try to nudge her toward thinking of
>
> how her child can learn just as ALL unschoolers learn, without the teaching
>
> and without the label. At her own pace in her own way.
>
> Great Advice!
>
> Linda
Pam Hartley
----------
got that all settled weeks ago.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Oh dear, are we back to the Imaginary Forbidden Words List? I thought we'd
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 3056
>Date: Mon, Feb 17, 2003, 11:06 AM
>
> I am talking in regards to words that people have used in their
> posts, as I have, and found that certain "words" are not to be
> used here.
got that all settled weeks ago.
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/17/2003 12:51:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
boys' "Unmom" if Ben and I both kick the bucket--teaches there.) for "LD
kids"--children with learning differences. As if all other kids learn exactly
the same! Anyway. It's VERY expensive---twice as much as the expensive
private school here. And the GOAL is to FIX these children so that they can
return to the regular private school. SO. These children KNOW from the get-go
that they're damaged---the teachers are trying to "fix" them so that they can
return to Heathwood "ready" to learn.
My friend Gillian, is trying to change the school so that the kids DON'T feel
that they are "broken". I think it's an uphill battle, but more power to her!
She'd like to make it a Howard Gardner School where each child's strengths
are celebrated even if they aren't "math and verbal". She doesn't want them
to feel that they are "damaged" even if that's the message they get from kids
in other schools, their parents and families, and the teachers. I can only
wish her luck!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma@... writes:
> Maybe. What I've seen is trading one heartache for another. Going from "yourThere's a school here in town (and a very good friend of ours---in fact, the
>
> kid is bad" to "your kid is damaged." I don't think those are the only two
> choices.
boys' "Unmom" if Ben and I both kick the bucket--teaches there.) for "LD
kids"--children with learning differences. As if all other kids learn exactly
the same! Anyway. It's VERY expensive---twice as much as the expensive
private school here. And the GOAL is to FIX these children so that they can
return to the regular private school. SO. These children KNOW from the get-go
that they're damaged---the teachers are trying to "fix" them so that they can
return to Heathwood "ready" to learn.
My friend Gillian, is trying to change the school so that the kids DON'T feel
that they are "broken". I think it's an uphill battle, but more power to her!
She'd like to make it a Howard Gardner School where each child's strengths
are celebrated even if they aren't "math and verbal". She doesn't want them
to feel that they are "damaged" even if that's the message they get from kids
in other schools, their parents and families, and the teachers. I can only
wish her luck!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
lets just forget it an move on.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
This is exactly the reason why we are unschooling.
My older brother is the same way, but is going to be OK, has been treated and is healing himself now, at age 47. I have been explaining unschooling to my bro lately and he is amazed at this thinking. He said to me, which really touched me, "Alec is lucky to have you as his mom", it was such a rush. I sat there crying on the phone.
So much of the time I beat myself up with what I am doing wrong and its really difficult sometimes to see the good I'm doing. My brother pointed it out. I
I am so happy to have found unschooling.
Kelli
zenmomma * <zenmomma@...> wrote:
Parenting was so different then. He grew up with only the labels of
troublemaker, smartass, and JD. He spent years as a heroin and then a
methadone addict. He spent years in prison. I'm sure if he were in the
school system as a child now, his labels would be more like ADHD, Dyslexia
or SID. Kinder maybe? Yes. Helpful? I don't think so. They would still be
labelling what was wrong with instead of celebrating what was right with him
He was bright. VERY bright. He was charming beyond belief. His passion as a
child was making scale models of buildings he knew and visited. As an adult
he was a leiutenant in the Fire Dept., generous to a fault and owned his own
business. He went to his death still unconvinced that he was a worthy soul.
A perfect being. Special BEFORE his weak areas, not in spite of them.
know how to reach him. No one ever told them it was okay to be
unconventional. They didn't know how to let go and help him move with his
strengths.
But I do. I know that I can label my kids' with places they can improve and
hold that in my heart as part of Who They Are, or I can let it go. I can
celebrate and talk about what makes them good and right and special. Even in
the midst of flying tantrums and teenage moods. I can reassure them day
after day that Who They Are is all they need to be. They can change some
behaviors, they can challenge their minds, they can buff up their bodies.
But in the end they are Who They Are and that's good.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My older brother is the same way, but is going to be OK, has been treated and is healing himself now, at age 47. I have been explaining unschooling to my bro lately and he is amazed at this thinking. He said to me, which really touched me, "Alec is lucky to have you as his mom", it was such a rush. I sat there crying on the phone.
So much of the time I beat myself up with what I am doing wrong and its really difficult sometimes to see the good I'm doing. My brother pointed it out. I
I am so happy to have found unschooling.
Kelli
zenmomma * <zenmomma@...> wrote:
>>He was medicated and told he had a disability and I believe with all myMy dear, seet, and now dead brother Marty grew up in the 40's and 50's.
>>heart that it helped lead him to the drug addicted, prison life he now
>>lives.>>
Parenting was so different then. He grew up with only the labels of
troublemaker, smartass, and JD. He spent years as a heroin and then a
methadone addict. He spent years in prison. I'm sure if he were in the
school system as a child now, his labels would be more like ADHD, Dyslexia
or SID. Kinder maybe? Yes. Helpful? I don't think so. They would still be
labelling what was wrong with instead of celebrating what was right with him
He was bright. VERY bright. He was charming beyond belief. His passion as a
child was making scale models of buildings he knew and visited. As an adult
he was a leiutenant in the Fire Dept., generous to a fault and owned his own
business. He went to his death still unconvinced that he was a worthy soul.
A perfect being. Special BEFORE his weak areas, not in spite of them.
>>My parent's did the best they knew how>>Mine did too. And they LOVED him fiercely in spite of it all. They didn't
know how to reach him. No one ever told them it was okay to be
unconventional. They didn't know how to let go and help him move with his
strengths.
But I do. I know that I can label my kids' with places they can improve and
hold that in my heart as part of Who They Are, or I can let it go. I can
celebrate and talk about what makes them good and right and special. Even in
the midst of flying tantrums and teenage moods. I can reassure them day
after day that Who They Are is all they need to be. They can change some
behaviors, they can challenge their minds, they can buff up their bodies.
But in the end they are Who They Are and that's good.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 2/17/03 1:44:38 PM, encadia@... writes:
<< lets just forget it an move on. >>
Feel free to start posting about your family's unschooling anytime here.
If you stop posting about labels when YOU want to, that's great.
Others will stop when they want to.
It IS a crucial part of changing attitudes from school-based standards to
natural learning.
Sandra
<< lets just forget it an move on. >>
Feel free to start posting about your family's unschooling anytime here.
If you stop posting about labels when YOU want to, that's great.
Others will stop when they want to.
It IS a crucial part of changing attitudes from school-based standards to
natural learning.
Sandra