Joel Hawthorne

Mary, I hate to see you go. The Christian unschoolers, attachment parenting
types are a hopeful light in the dark for me. I think (in my brain) that the
two are mutually hard to reconcile but I continue to see both on the internet
and here in Vancouver where I live people who combine the two quite gracefully.

Yes keep shouting it from the rooftops. I'll save this post of yours to pass on
to people in the future as it says volumes about a number of important issues.
Do drop by this list occasionally. I understand the volume problem.

Good luck. I am glad for your website and I think I will bookmark it and pass
on it on to those folks who seem like they need it. Indeed best wishes.

mrstar wrote:

> From: "mrstar" <mrstar@...>
>
> Joel wrote<<<Speaking of vaccinations: I would avoid Hep B vaccinations for
> children>>>
>
> Reading this reminded me of the notice I got in the mail from the health
> department a few weeks ago. It reads:
>
> Immunization Changes
>
> HepatitisB is no longer being offered at birth to newborns (at least in
> Idaho). HepatitisB is one of the vaccines containing thimerosol (no one ever
> mentioned this word to me, ever. I had to learn it myself a few years back),
> A bactericidal MERCURIC compound. To avoid any possible risk of MERCURY to
> the developing newborn brain, physicians are choosing to delay Hep B series
> until the infant is two months or older ( the rest is the revised schedule)
> (parenthesis and emphasis mine)
>
> I found this interesting. I have read (and posted) plenty of information on
> vaccinations but never anything so self damning from the medical
> community/government. No one ever said the words thimerisol, mercuric or
> mercury to me nor did I read it in any of the pamphlets they gave me when my
> children were vaccinated (before I got myself educated). My oldest has all
> but the ones you get right before you enter school and he missed out on the
> HepB I believe (have records somewhere) my next one did his last at 18
> months and I did refuse the hepB in the hospital and delayed it 2 months. My
> youngest got to her 4 months shots and low and behold she is by far the most
> healthy, able to fight sickness, robust child of them all (my other two are
> step and I haven't got mom convinced yet). I still have much to learn but
> after what I have read and heard so far I am definitely on a better track
> than I was.
>
> As for delivery, My oldest was born in a small hospital, great doctor but
> very main stream. They couldn't monitor baby that well (I was heavy) so they
> suggested one of those monitors that they reach in and SCREW to the babies
> skull. That spot got infected and he had to be on antibiotics before he was
> a week old. Aside from that major problem the rest was cake. My second was
> born in a much larger hospital. My friend had had her son there a few months
> prior and she had told me a story of the nurse wheeling her baby off in the
> baby cart thing and not knowing that grandma was right behind her, used the
> cart to push open the doors, jarring the baby. Grandma got irate. I got an
> earful before I even went in so I went in on the offensive. Delivery was
> fine but right afterwards, as they were getting ready to move us to our room
> (used a 'birthing room' but you can't stay there past an hour) some burley
> nurse came over to me sitting in a wheel chair and started, without warning
> I might add, punching me in the stomach (or so it seemed) she was pushing
> and pushing really hard while I was in a sitting position. No one ever
> mentioned this to me, it didn't happen with my first child and it was very
> traumatizing. Not once did I ever allow them to take my son out of the room
> without escort and when I was questioned by the nurse about it, I told my
> friends story. Turned out to be the same nurse. She asked to be taken off my
> case and rightly so. After that they kissed my behind but refused to take
> the iv out of my arm, I had to make it bleed for them to take it out at
> which time they informed me that I had to have it cause it contained pitocin
> (which I had not been informed I was receiving, I thought it was just
> fluids). I told them tough, get it out now or I will take it out. I refused
> the hep B for my son but they insisted in revaccinating me for rubella and
> how could I argue with the threat of a deaf child if I got it with my next
> pregnancy (I was still so very ignorant). I got out of there 18 hrs after I
> delivered but not until the head nurse came in and made sure everything was
> good with me. The gave me a little trouble with my husband staying with me
> the entire time and sleeping with me in the bed but I would have walked if
> they hadn't allowed it.
>
> My 3rd (and last) child was born at a birthing center, underwater. I still
> had to be induced (she was late, the others were right on time)but in the
> least invasive way. I was there 8 hours total, I got to hold my baby right
> away and no one did anything to her. Am I the only one who didn't know that
> it is preferable to not bath the baby thoroughly when they are born. She had
> the softest sweetest skin (and still does) and I think it is from all that
> stuff they scrubbed off my other two. I would recommend this experience for
> anyone who is afraid to go it alone. My doctor listened to me and respected
> me and my decisions but it was right near a hospital incase of
> complications. Now, of course, if I were able to do it again, have another,
> I would stay home, rent a pool and go for it.
>
> Just keep talking folks, to anyone who will listen and even to those who
> won't. It is not just what you say about your birth experiences, your
> unschooling, your family and it's closeness, it is what they see. They see
> healthy, extraordinary children, people, individuals. My children are by far
> not the most unschooled, confidant, well cared for, together children (I am
> just starting to see the light as I pull my head out of the sand) but I can
> still see the difference between them and mainstream children. I watched a
> weekend dad at the park this morning so ill at ease with his 2 yr old, so
> untuned and he was trying so hard but was just clueless. I went out tonight
> to burger king to let my kids run around for a bit (so I could stay up late
> tonight, we family bed now and usually all go at once) and there , in
> playland was a maybe 3 month old baby in a baby carrier/carseat planted on a
> table top with mom sitting out in the restaurant out of site. There were two
> preteen boys climbing on the outside of the equipment totally not watching.
> It broke my heart, sweet baby with bottle propped in his mouth, mom shoving
> fries at the other end of the establishment. I think I am going to stay home
> for a few more years!!
>
> Okay, I am done rambling and ranting. I am up way too late and can't keep a
> coherent thought for more than a few minutes. I hate to do it but I must
> seriously consider leaving this list. I have no more time. I have so many
> unanswered posts sitting in my files and I am going to just have to let
> them go. I really enjoy it here, but as it was when I first started, it is
> yet, far too big for my little bit of time. I would (while I am at it with
> my monster post) like to again extend an invitation to anyone interested to
> check out my list Gods_way_naturally on onelist. It is for Christian
> unschoolers who are into attachment parenting, non coercive parenting and
> simple, natural living and natural health alternatives. (or at least
> interested in the above, we have folks to whom only a few of those apply). E
> mail me at mrstar@... if you are interested. It has been great
> hanging here and I may come back in a few years when they are not all so
> small here.
>
> Blessings,
> Mary in Idaho (who is getting out now before she gets too sappy)
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

mrstar

Joel wrote<<<Speaking of vaccinations: I would avoid Hep B vaccinations for
children>>>

Reading this reminded me of the notice I got in the mail from the health
department a few weeks ago. It reads:

Immunization Changes

HepatitisB is no longer being offered at birth to newborns (at least in
Idaho). HepatitisB is one of the vaccines containing thimerosol (no one ever
mentioned this word to me, ever. I had to learn it myself a few years back),
A bactericidal MERCURIC compound. To avoid any possible risk of MERCURY to
the developing newborn brain, physicians are choosing to delay Hep B series
until the infant is two months or older ( the rest is the revised schedule)
(parenthesis and emphasis mine)

I found this interesting. I have read (and posted) plenty of information on
vaccinations but never anything so self damning from the medical
community/government. No one ever said the words thimerisol, mercuric or
mercury to me nor did I read it in any of the pamphlets they gave me when my
children were vaccinated (before I got myself educated). My oldest has all
but the ones you get right before you enter school and he missed out on the
HepB I believe (have records somewhere) my next one did his last at 18
months and I did refuse the hepB in the hospital and delayed it 2 months. My
youngest got to her 4 months shots and low and behold she is by far the most
healthy, able to fight sickness, robust child of them all (my other two are
step and I haven't got mom convinced yet). I still have much to learn but
after what I have read and heard so far I am definitely on a better track
than I was.

As for delivery, My oldest was born in a small hospital, great doctor but
very main stream. They couldn't monitor baby that well (I was heavy) so they
suggested one of those monitors that they reach in and SCREW to the babies
skull. That spot got infected and he had to be on antibiotics before he was
a week old. Aside from that major problem the rest was cake. My second was
born in a much larger hospital. My friend had had her son there a few months
prior and she had told me a story of the nurse wheeling her baby off in the
baby cart thing and not knowing that grandma was right behind her, used the
cart to push open the doors, jarring the baby. Grandma got irate. I got an
earful before I even went in so I went in on the offensive. Delivery was
fine but right afterwards, as they were getting ready to move us to our room
(used a 'birthing room' but you can't stay there past an hour) some burley
nurse came over to me sitting in a wheel chair and started, without warning
I might add, punching me in the stomach (or so it seemed) she was pushing
and pushing really hard while I was in a sitting position. No one ever
mentioned this to me, it didn't happen with my first child and it was very
traumatizing. Not once did I ever allow them to take my son out of the room
without escort and when I was questioned by the nurse about it, I told my
friends story. Turned out to be the same nurse. She asked to be taken off my
case and rightly so. After that they kissed my behind but refused to take
the iv out of my arm, I had to make it bleed for them to take it out at
which time they informed me that I had to have it cause it contained pitocin
(which I had not been informed I was receiving, I thought it was just
fluids). I told them tough, get it out now or I will take it out. I refused
the hep B for my son but they insisted in revaccinating me for rubella and
how could I argue with the threat of a deaf child if I got it with my next
pregnancy (I was still so very ignorant). I got out of there 18 hrs after I
delivered but not until the head nurse came in and made sure everything was
good with me. The gave me a little trouble with my husband staying with me
the entire time and sleeping with me in the bed but I would have walked if
they hadn't allowed it.

My 3rd (and last) child was born at a birthing center, underwater. I still
had to be induced (she was late, the others were right on time)but in the
least invasive way. I was there 8 hours total, I got to hold my baby right
away and no one did anything to her. Am I the only one who didn't know that
it is preferable to not bath the baby thoroughly when they are born. She had
the softest sweetest skin (and still does) and I think it is from all that
stuff they scrubbed off my other two. I would recommend this experience for
anyone who is afraid to go it alone. My doctor listened to me and respected
me and my decisions but it was right near a hospital incase of
complications. Now, of course, if I were able to do it again, have another,
I would stay home, rent a pool and go for it.

Just keep talking folks, to anyone who will listen and even to those who
won't. It is not just what you say about your birth experiences, your
unschooling, your family and it's closeness, it is what they see. They see
healthy, extraordinary children, people, individuals. My children are by far
not the most unschooled, confidant, well cared for, together children (I am
just starting to see the light as I pull my head out of the sand) but I can
still see the difference between them and mainstream children. I watched a
weekend dad at the park this morning so ill at ease with his 2 yr old, so
untuned and he was trying so hard but was just clueless. I went out tonight
to burger king to let my kids run around for a bit (so I could stay up late
tonight, we family bed now and usually all go at once) and there , in
playland was a maybe 3 month old baby in a baby carrier/carseat planted on a
table top with mom sitting out in the restaurant out of site. There were two
preteen boys climbing on the outside of the equipment totally not watching.
It broke my heart, sweet baby with bottle propped in his mouth, mom shoving
fries at the other end of the establishment. I think I am going to stay home
for a few more years!!

Okay, I am done rambling and ranting. I am up way too late and can't keep a
coherent thought for more than a few minutes. I hate to do it but I must
seriously consider leaving this list. I have no more time. I have so many
unanswered posts sitting in my files and I am going to just have to let
them go. I really enjoy it here, but as it was when I first started, it is
yet, far too big for my little bit of time. I would (while I am at it with
my monster post) like to again extend an invitation to anyone interested to
check out my list Gods_way_naturally on onelist. It is for Christian
unschoolers who are into attachment parenting, non coercive parenting and
simple, natural living and natural health alternatives. (or at least
interested in the above, we have folks to whom only a few of those apply). E
mail me at mrstar@... if you are interested. It has been great
hanging here and I may come back in a few years when they are not all so
small here.

Blessings,
Mary in Idaho (who is getting out now before she gets too sappy)

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/10/99 4:40:23 AM EST, jhawthorne@... writes:

<< They couldn't monitor baby that well (I was heavy) so they
> suggested one of those monitors that they reach in and SCREW to the babies
> skull. >>

I also went through this with my son. I was not heavy, they just did not
want me to hear his heartrate drop so I would not become distressed. I was
only 18 when he was born and pretty ignorant but after the moniter had
dropped out for the third time, I refused to let them put it back in! The
nurses tried to humor me, but I was not in the mood. Ha ha!
Also, both of my chldren were induced, even though I told the doctors
their due dates were wrong. Again, as I said, I was young and nieve. If I
were to go through it now I would do things much differently.
Lori in TX