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In a message dated 5/10/02 8:31:23 AM, kinkade@... writes:

<< I guess, I don't hold much respect for the ps or teachers who claim that
it is better. Any of them who claim it is, have either not been in the system
long enough to know better, or are deceiving themselves. >>

IF you believe that learning is more important than grades and that the
schools are deeply flawed, what do you care about the difference between an F
and a D or a D and a C?

Get this: For mother's day a friend printed out an article on a study on IQ
and breastfeeding. The study was done in Denmark, and showed a 6 point
average advantage on IQ tests for teens and adults who had been breasted
until they were nine months old. (They didn't check for level of
education/dropping out, etc, just straight correspondence, and they found no
further difference if the children were nursed past the nine months.)

In the article, about the six points, it said

<<That gap "is not the difference between an Einstein and a mentally retarded
child," said study director June Machover Reinisch. But she said it could be
the difference "between normal and bright-normal, or bright-normal and
superior.">>

The very ideas of a scale which would be considered an important reality
being divided into "normal and bright-normal" and on from there to the
important edge between "bright-normal and superior" is SUCH A JOKE.

AND... we know these IQ tests are after verbal, logical and mathematical
stuff. How did breastfeeding affect musical ability? Affinity with nature?
Kinesthetic abilities? Interpersonal skills? WHO CARES!? Those things
aren't "real" and measurable.

So happy mother's day to me--I might have brought my kids from normal to
*bright*0-normal.

marji

At 11:52 5/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>AND... we know these IQ tests are after verbal, logical and mathematical
>stuff. How did breastfeeding affect musical ability? Affinity with nature?
>Kinesthetic abilities? Interpersonal skills? WHO CARES!? Those things
>aren't "real" and measurable.
>
>So happy mother's day to me--I might have brought my kids from normal to
>*bright*0-normal.

Thank you for saying this! It's a shame that we human mammals have lost
our way so badly that we need to be coaxed to do the right thing and that
we need statistics and instruments to measure the benefits of what should
be obvious to our naked eyes: A thriving, healthy, HAPPY child. What more
could anyone possibly want (aside from unlimited free time :-) )?

I have always thought that the ability to breastfeed was, in fact, a
Mother's Day gift, year-round, in and of itself, and I was always grateful
for it. So, Happy Mother's Day!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/10/02 10:22:24 AM, zintz@... writes:

<< What more
could anyone possibly want (aside from unlimited free time :-) )? >>

and a new van...

gruvystarchild

YES!! Great posts.
I breastfeed my baby because it's what nature intended for me to do!
I breastfeed him because he's happier and healthier and I don't need
anyone to tell me that my body can produce a better milk for him than
something made in a factory!!
I breastfeed him until he's ready to not be breastfed and I'm sad
that a person might only do it the first year because so many of the
studies might not point to long term benefits.
If he needs it, then it's my job to provide it.
And the side benefit is we are bonding each and every time he latches
on and I look into those beautiful eyes.

> >AND... we know these IQ tests are after verbal, logical and
mathematical
> >stuff. How did breastfeeding affect musical ability? Affinity
with nature?
> >Kinesthetic abilities? Interpersonal skills? WHO CARES!?
Those things
> >aren't "real" and measurable.
> >
> >So happy mother's day to me--I might have brought my kids from
normal to
> >*bright*0-normal.
>
> Thank you for saying this! It's a shame that we human mammals have
lost
> our way so badly that we need to be coaxed to do the right thing
and that
> we need statistics and instruments to measure the benefits of what
should
> be obvious to our naked eyes: A thriving, healthy, HAPPY child.
What more
> could anyone possibly want (aside from unlimited free time :-) )?
>
> I have always thought that the ability to breastfeed was, in fact,
a
> Mother's Day gift, year-round, in and of itself, and I was always
grateful
> for it. So, Happy Mother's Day!
>
> [

Kinkade

Sandra,

Obviously you missed the point I was trying to make...

Duh!! I don't care about the grade... the point I was trying to make is that they have this standard... hence the grade. But they don't live up to it themselves... I was saying how terribly flawed this whole ps system really is.

I am not sure why, but for some reason you seem to have it in for me. It was my hope to meet other Unschoolers (people who think learning is a great thing, exploring new things is a wonderful experience), I had hoped that I would gain insight, and learn. I had hoped I would find support. Not be yelled at or put down every time my opinions or thoughts don't line up with yours. You may not think so, but it is not easy to come to a group of people and open up and share. It is scary... what if this isn't the way Unschooling works? I shared in hopes of learning. I don't mind being told that you disagree, or that I could be wrong... Great.... Teach me. Oh wait, you don't teach. Then lead me to the answers to find on my own. I am sorry to say that all I see is an atmosphere of hostility. I will do you the favor of leaving all groups you are on. If this is what the Unschooler is like, I may need to reconsider my decisions about Unschooling. This is most certainly not the atmosphere I wish to bring my children into.

Good Bye....

Rebecca

----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 11:52 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] institutes and measures



In a message dated 5/10/02 8:31:23 AM, kinkade@... writes:

<< I guess, I don't hold much respect for the ps or teachers who claim that
it is better. Any of them who claim it is, have either not been in the system
long enough to know better, or are deceiving themselves. >>

IF you believe that learning is more important than grades and that the
schools are deeply flawed, what do you care about the difference between an F
and a D or a D and a C?

Get this: For mother's day a friend printed out an article on a study on IQ
and breastfeeding. The study was done in Denmark, and showed a 6 point
average advantage on IQ tests for teens and adults who had been breasted
until they were nine months old. (They didn't check for level of
education/dropping out, etc, just straight correspondence, and they found no
further difference if the children were nursed past the nine months.)

In the article, about the six points, it said

<<That gap "is not the difference between an Einstein and a mentally retarded
child," said study director June Machover Reinisch. But she said it could be
the difference "between normal and bright-normal, or bright-normal and
superior.">>

The very ideas of a scale which would be considered an important reality
being divided into "normal and bright-normal" and on from there to the
important edge between "bright-normal and superior" is SUCH A JOKE.

AND... we know these IQ tests are after verbal, logical and mathematical
stuff. How did breastfeeding affect musical ability? Affinity with nature?
Kinesthetic abilities? Interpersonal skills? WHO CARES!? Those things
aren't "real" and measurable.

So happy mother's day to me--I might have brought my kids from normal to
*bright*0-normal.


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In a message dated 5/12/02 5:39:39 PM, kinkade@... writes:

<< Obviously you missed the point I was trying to make...>>

Perhaps I did.

<< Duh!! I don't care about the grade... the point I was trying to make is
that they have this standard... hence the grade. >>

The post seemed to be irritated about details of grading. Grades doesn't
prove or disprove learning. Outside of school itself, grades are meaningless.

Unschooling is way outside of school.

<<I am not sure why, but for some reason you seem to have it in for me. >>

This isn't so at all. I'm sorry you feel that way. I had answered that post
with no clue who it was from. I was only talking about the idea of numbers
and comparisons between one range (as grades, or IQ points) and another.

The story about breastfeeding and IQ had just reminded me that the whole idea
of putting huge labels and importance on ranges of test scores is hugely
flawed, artificial, and of very little use in the real world (including the
real unschooling world).

<<I am sorry to say that all I see is an atmosphere of hostility. I will do
you the favor of leaving all groups you are on. >>

It does me no benefit or harm. I didn't mean to be hostile, I was trying to
discuss the idea of grading, and the futility of being upset about grades
once you decide to unschool.

Sandra

hsmomof4kiddies

<< I had answered that post with no clue who it was from. >>

Old Chinese Proverb:

Better to keep mouth shut and be thought a fool, than open mouth and
remove all doubt.

Fetteroll

> I am not sure why, but for some reason you seem to have it in for me.

One of the purposes of this list is to discuss ideas.

Not people.

Sometimes we become so attached to our ideas and beliefs that when someone
takes one and examines it the examination can feel like a personal attack.

There is support and encouragement here. There is also examination of ideas,
beliefs and entrenched ways of thinking.

Some people prefer the first so they can come slowly to this new way of
thinking. Some people prefer the second so an "aha" moment can dramatically
change their thinking. Hopefully the two needs can coexist peacefully here.

It's helpful to keep in mind that everyone is here to help in the best way
they know how.

Just as unschoolers accept that every child will learn differently, so too
do adults. Some people need support. Some people need to read examples from
others lives. Some people need very detailed step by step answers. Some
people need to have their thinking shaken up. All those needs can be met
here. We just need to pick and choose from the variety that is being freely
offered. A style of answer someone doesn't like may be exactly what someone
else needs to hear. (So it's also helpful to keep in mind that what may feel
like a conversation between two people is actually a public discussion and
examination of ideas with many silent people listening and learning.)

If someone finds their ideas being examined and it makes them uncomfortable,
some people find it useful to ask themselves why the examination makes them
uncomfortable. Other people find it useful to read as though their best
friend were saying the words so they don't mistakenly read in a tone that
wasn't intended. And other people find it useful to just skip posts by
certain people whose style rubs them the wrong way. (It may be a style that
someone else is getting a great deal out of.)

But above all remember people are just trying to help. If it doesn't help
you it's helping someone else.

> << I had answered that post with no clue who it was from. >>
>
> Old Chinese Proverb:
>
> Better to keep mouth shut and be thought a fool, than open mouth and
> remove all doubt.

Not noticing who a post is from is a sometimes unconscious but sometimes
deliberate practice.

By not noticing who wrote an email we can respond to and discuss the *ideas*
expressed without letting our answer be colored by who we are responding to.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

Kinkade

Joyce,

I understand you are trying to keep the peace. But in this case, it isn't that I have a problem with being told I may be wrong. Well, it isn't worth getting into again. If you really want to understand it, it would be easier to read through the thread on that topic, but you would need to include the thread on a couple of other groups as well. Her attacks were not limited to this group. That is probably why I took it "Personally". I am sorry I have made so much trouble for you to worry about. Like I said, I will be leaving. As for not knowing who you are responding to... well I think it is important when you are in an ongoing thread to have an idea of who the "players" are. That simple thing would have saved a lot of trouble.

Have a great day,

Rebecca
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 8:08 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Personal attacks and the purpose of this list


> I am not sure why, but for some reason you seem to have it in for me.

One of the purposes of this list is to discuss ideas.

Not people.

Sometimes we become so attached to our ideas and beliefs that when someone
takes one and examines it the examination can feel like a personal attack.

There is support and encouragement here. There is also examination of ideas,
beliefs and entrenched ways of thinking.

Some people prefer the first so they can come slowly to this new way of
thinking. Some people prefer the second so an "aha" moment can dramatically
change their thinking. Hopefully the two needs can coexist peacefully here.

It's helpful to keep in mind that everyone is here to help in the best way
they know how.

Just as unschoolers accept that every child will learn differently, so too
do adults. Some people need support. Some people need to read examples from
others lives. Some people need very detailed step by step answers. Some
people need to have their thinking shaken up. All those needs can be met
here. We just need to pick and choose from the variety that is being freely
offered. A style of answer someone doesn't like may be exactly what someone
else needs to hear. (So it's also helpful to keep in mind that what may feel
like a conversation between two people is actually a public discussion and
examination of ideas with many silent people listening and learning.)

If someone finds their ideas being examined and it makes them uncomfortable,
some people find it useful to ask themselves why the examination makes them
uncomfortable. Other people find it useful to read as though their best
friend were saying the words so they don't mistakenly read in a tone that
wasn't intended. And other people find it useful to just skip posts by
certain people whose style rubs them the wrong way. (It may be a style that
someone else is getting a great deal out of.)

But above all remember people are just trying to help. If it doesn't help
you it's helping someone else.

> << I had answered that post with no clue who it was from. >>
>
> Old Chinese Proverb:
>
> Better to keep mouth shut and be thought a fool, than open mouth and
> remove all doubt.

Not noticing who a post is from is a sometimes unconscious but sometimes
deliberate practice.

By not noticing who wrote an email we can respond to and discuss the *ideas*
expressed without letting our answer be colored by who we are responding to.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator


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~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 5/13/02 8:26:11 AM, kinkade@... writes:

<< If you really want to understand it, it would be easier to read through
the thread on that topic, but you would need to include the thread on a
couple of other groups as well. Her attacks were not limited to this group.
That is probably why I took it "Personally". >>

I'm only on this and one other unschooling list, so the promise to sign off
all other lists I'm on was an exaggeration, and the public statement that I'm
"attacking" on other groups is unfair. And I didn't mean to attack here.
When ideas are put out for hundreds of people to read, there they are, in
public. I don't keep notes and charts on who's who, who's where, who's
homeschooled how long, who has kids how old. I'm just looking at the ideas
presented and sharing my own experiences on those ideas, practices, theories,
whatever.

Sandra

Jennifer Ackerman

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