Legislative heads up
Freedom Panther
Passing this on from another list. A "heads up," as it were.
Freedompanther
Subject: proposed legislation - a look out call to all of us !!!!
Home-School Diplomas Nullified by Proposed Legislation
By Zan Tyler
Editor of the Crosswalk.com HomeSchool Channel
May 03, 2002
Watch out for legislation like this in your state. As home schoolers we can
never relax!
Crosswalk.com HomeSchool Channel - The Alarming Saga of House Bill 3364
(A special thanks to SCAIHS' attorney Ken Wingate and HSLDA attorney Dee
Black for their collaborative efforts in composing this article.)
The Discovery of House Bill 3364
The home schooling community in South Carolina has a team of people who are
committed to the process of protecting parental rights in the South Carolina
General Assembly. We have legal counsel in Washington, legal counsel in
South Carolina, grassroots activists, and home schooling advocates who
constantly monitor and analyze pending legislation. In addition, many of us
work diligently to maintain a positive and visible presence at the state
capitol.
Several weeks ago Tandy Collier (home schooling mother and support group
leader from the Upstate) asked me to take a look at a bill, which had
already passed the entire State House of Representatives and was currently
residing in the Senate Education Committee.
As I read through the text of H. 3364, I was amazed, flabbergasted, and
appalled at what I was reading. I took a deep breath and read the bill
again, thinking that somehow it would become more palatable with a second
reading. It was worse. I called Dee Black with Home School Legal Defense
Association (HSLDA). He was deeply concerned. I called Ken Wingate, the
South Carolina attorney for SCAIHS, and he echoed the concerns of HSLDA.
Others that I contacted voiced similar concern-including Lee Safley,
president of the South Carolina Home Educators Association (SCHEA).
The Text of House Bill 3364
The bill is short, and you should read it in its entirety.
A BILL
TO AMEND THE CODE OF LAWS OF SOUTH CAROLINA, 1976, BY ADDING SECTION
59-39-155 SO AS TO PROVIDE THAT IF ANY STATE LICENSING, APPOINTMENT,
ELECTION, ADMISSION, EMPLOYMENT, OR OTHER PROCESS REQUIRES THE APPLICANT TO
POSSESS A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR ITS EQUIVALENT, NO SUCH DIPLOMA OR
CERTIFICATE SHALL BE ACCEPTABLE FOR PURPOSES OF THAT PROCESS UNLESS THE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION CERTIFIES THAT THE STANDARDS OF THE INSTITUTION
GRANTING THE DIPLOMA OR CERTIFICATE OR THE STANDARDS OF ANY TESTING USED TO
GRANT THE DIPLOMA OR CERTIFICATE ARE AT LEAST COMPARABLE TO THOSE OF THE
STATE.
_________________________________________________________________
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Freedompanther
Subject: proposed legislation - a look out call to all of us !!!!
Home-School Diplomas Nullified by Proposed Legislation
By Zan Tyler
Editor of the Crosswalk.com HomeSchool Channel
May 03, 2002
Watch out for legislation like this in your state. As home schoolers we can
never relax!
Crosswalk.com HomeSchool Channel - The Alarming Saga of House Bill 3364
(A special thanks to SCAIHS' attorney Ken Wingate and HSLDA attorney Dee
Black for their collaborative efforts in composing this article.)
The Discovery of House Bill 3364
The home schooling community in South Carolina has a team of people who are
committed to the process of protecting parental rights in the South Carolina
General Assembly. We have legal counsel in Washington, legal counsel in
South Carolina, grassroots activists, and home schooling advocates who
constantly monitor and analyze pending legislation. In addition, many of us
work diligently to maintain a positive and visible presence at the state
capitol.
Several weeks ago Tandy Collier (home schooling mother and support group
leader from the Upstate) asked me to take a look at a bill, which had
already passed the entire State House of Representatives and was currently
residing in the Senate Education Committee.
As I read through the text of H. 3364, I was amazed, flabbergasted, and
appalled at what I was reading. I took a deep breath and read the bill
again, thinking that somehow it would become more palatable with a second
reading. It was worse. I called Dee Black with Home School Legal Defense
Association (HSLDA). He was deeply concerned. I called Ken Wingate, the
South Carolina attorney for SCAIHS, and he echoed the concerns of HSLDA.
Others that I contacted voiced similar concern-including Lee Safley,
president of the South Carolina Home Educators Association (SCHEA).
The Text of House Bill 3364
The bill is short, and you should read it in its entirety.
A BILL
TO AMEND THE CODE OF LAWS OF SOUTH CAROLINA, 1976, BY ADDING SECTION
59-39-155 SO AS TO PROVIDE THAT IF ANY STATE LICENSING, APPOINTMENT,
ELECTION, ADMISSION, EMPLOYMENT, OR OTHER PROCESS REQUIRES THE APPLICANT TO
POSSESS A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR ITS EQUIVALENT, NO SUCH DIPLOMA OR
CERTIFICATE SHALL BE ACCEPTABLE FOR PURPOSES OF THAT PROCESS UNLESS THE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION CERTIFIES THAT THE STANDARDS OF THE INSTITUTION
GRANTING THE DIPLOMA OR CERTIFICATE OR THE STANDARDS OF ANY TESTING USED TO
GRANT THE DIPLOMA OR CERTIFICATE ARE AT LEAST COMPARABLE TO THOSE OF THE
STATE.
_________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]
I read this recently. I laughed because it seemed to be a funny thing to get
upset about. (the diploma itself). It strikes me as one of those sky is
falling things. But if anyone feels that I am misunderstanding, please let
me know how *you* feel.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
upset about. (the diploma itself). It strikes me as one of those sky is
falling things. But if anyone feels that I am misunderstanding, please let
me know how *you* feel.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/8/02 9:28:26 PM, freedompanther@... writes:
<< A BILL
TO AMEND THE CODE OF LAWS OF SOUTH CAROLINA, 1976, BY ADDING SECTION
59-39-155 SO AS TO PROVIDE THAT IF ANY STATE LICENSING, APPOINTMENT,
ELECTION, ADMISSION, EMPLOYMENT, OR OTHER PROCESS REQUIRES THE APPLICANT TO
POSSESS A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR ITS EQUIVALENT, NO SUCH DIPLOMA OR
CERTIFICATE SHALL BE ACCEPTABLE FOR PURPOSES OF THAT PROCESS UNLESS THE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION CERTIFIES THAT THE STANDARDS OF THE INSTITUTION
GRANTING THE DIPLOMA OR CERTIFICATE OR THE STANDARDS OF ANY TESTING USED TO
GRANT THE DIPLOMA OR CERTIFICATE ARE AT LEAST COMPARABLE TO THOSE OF THE
STATE.
If people want accreditation, they have always had to go to an accredited
school. Schools have many of their strictures in place to maintain (or gain)
accreditation.
Many private Christian schools are not accredited, and that's been the case
over the years, and they KNEW it.
-=-IF ANY STATE LICENSING, APPOINTMENT,
ELECTION, ADMISSION, EMPLOYMENT, OR OTHER PROCESS REQUIRES THE APPLICANT TO
POSSESS A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR ITS EQUIVALENT-=-
So what does that actually amount to in South Carolina? State licensing
like what? To serve alcohol? To groom dogs? Be a barber? Seriously--what
kind of state licenses?
Appointment and Election? To hold office or to be a notary public?
Admission and employment, we already have that problem just about everywhere.
Either a college will let you in or they won't. And if that bill goes
through, it might be easier to talk places into changing their policy (IF
necessary--it might not be necessary in many cases already) to "highest level
of education" (instead of "high school diploma, it could say high school
diploma or higher, and "some college" usually qualifies as "higher") and do
the "some college" route, OR what's already being done in most places: get
a GED.
IF there are non-accredited schools in the state already, that's likely who
they're after--trying to raise the standards of those schools, or try to give
public schooled kids an advantage.
Do they intend the phrase "any state..." to refer to the entire list? State
employment as opposed to ANY employment? It seems so to me, but just a
clarification on that could help.
Do people really want the law watered down to the point that any parent can
print off a diploma at any point along the way and have it be just as real as
that of an accredited school?
Sandra
<< A BILL
TO AMEND THE CODE OF LAWS OF SOUTH CAROLINA, 1976, BY ADDING SECTION
59-39-155 SO AS TO PROVIDE THAT IF ANY STATE LICENSING, APPOINTMENT,
ELECTION, ADMISSION, EMPLOYMENT, OR OTHER PROCESS REQUIRES THE APPLICANT TO
POSSESS A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR ITS EQUIVALENT, NO SUCH DIPLOMA OR
CERTIFICATE SHALL BE ACCEPTABLE FOR PURPOSES OF THAT PROCESS UNLESS THE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION CERTIFIES THAT THE STANDARDS OF THE INSTITUTION
GRANTING THE DIPLOMA OR CERTIFICATE OR THE STANDARDS OF ANY TESTING USED TO
GRANT THE DIPLOMA OR CERTIFICATE ARE AT LEAST COMPARABLE TO THOSE OF THE
STATE.
>>That's no big deal, is it really? Especially for unschoolers?
If people want accreditation, they have always had to go to an accredited
school. Schools have many of their strictures in place to maintain (or gain)
accreditation.
Many private Christian schools are not accredited, and that's been the case
over the years, and they KNEW it.
-=-IF ANY STATE LICENSING, APPOINTMENT,
ELECTION, ADMISSION, EMPLOYMENT, OR OTHER PROCESS REQUIRES THE APPLICANT TO
POSSESS A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR ITS EQUIVALENT-=-
So what does that actually amount to in South Carolina? State licensing
like what? To serve alcohol? To groom dogs? Be a barber? Seriously--what
kind of state licenses?
Appointment and Election? To hold office or to be a notary public?
Admission and employment, we already have that problem just about everywhere.
Either a college will let you in or they won't. And if that bill goes
through, it might be easier to talk places into changing their policy (IF
necessary--it might not be necessary in many cases already) to "highest level
of education" (instead of "high school diploma, it could say high school
diploma or higher, and "some college" usually qualifies as "higher") and do
the "some college" route, OR what's already being done in most places: get
a GED.
IF there are non-accredited schools in the state already, that's likely who
they're after--trying to raise the standards of those schools, or try to give
public schooled kids an advantage.
Do they intend the phrase "any state..." to refer to the entire list? State
employment as opposed to ANY employment? It seems so to me, but just a
clarification on that could help.
Do people really want the law watered down to the point that any parent can
print off a diploma at any point along the way and have it be just as real as
that of an accredited school?
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 5/9/02 7:08 AM, ElissaJC@... at ElissaJC@... wrote:
goes through a legislature is seemingly a potential disaster for
homeschoolers.
And Crosswalk.com seems to be holding hands with HSLDA.
Personally I look to my inclusive state homeschooling group for objective
information about what is and isn't important as far as legislation goes.
Joyce
> It strikes me as one of those sky isIt's fairly typical of the type of thing HSLDA sends out. Every thought that
> falling things.
goes through a legislature is seemingly a potential disaster for
homeschoolers.
And Crosswalk.com seems to be holding hands with HSLDA.
Personally I look to my inclusive state homeschooling group for objective
information about what is and isn't important as far as legislation goes.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/9/02 6:14:40 AM, ninnyridge03@... writes:
<< I don't think the issue here is so much how WE feel about the diploma, but
how our kids are going to approach not having one when they reach the age of
needing one. >>
Every homeschooler has thought of that already, I'm sure.
<< But nevertheless there's still the obstacle of overcoming the age-old
tradition of having that piece of paper from the STATE. >>
And homeschoolers, not being the state, never were going to give their kids
one anyway.
They can sign up with Calvert or American School and get a diploma, or they
can get a GED. Legislation in South Carolina changes NONE of this.
Accreditation of schools is where you should be reading, I think. If we want
to be accredited, we'll be back to the requirements some states used to have
that one parent had to have teacher training, or that a homeschooling parent
had to have a college degree.
-=-We had between 650-1000 homeschoolers show up at the State House yesterday
by 9am, from all over the state. This bill was shot down in short order.-=-
So legislatures rolled from pressure from potential voters?
There are more professional educators than there are homeschooling parents.
Maybe they'll show up next time, and their union actually has some money!
-=-*REAL*??? Isn't this what we as homeschoolers are trying to overcome???
The fact that people think the only REAL thing in education is what the state
hands down?!? -=-
Are you talking about learning or are you talking about a certificate?
I don't do "education," btw--it's too structured and tainted.
I deal in learning.
Learning is a reality nobody can take away from you. The things a person
knows and the way he learns those things have nothing to do with any state or
national jurisdiction. The laws cannot keep a person from learning.
A state accredited institution has the authority to give a binding, official
diploma. That is a legal reality I chose to have nothing to do with. My
children will NOT have a state diploma. They might take a GED at some point,
but although I can creat impressive and flowery diploma text and print them a
jazzy diploma with their names in GOLD metallic foil on a $2 diploma blank,
it will not be the legal equal of a diploma from an accredited institution.
-=-I think what we're facing here is the state allowing homeschool but then
underminig the efforts of parents by refusing to acknowledge the childs
education as genuine.-=-
No, I think you were unrealistic if you thought that having children at home
was going to equal a diploma. If they're enrolled in a correspondence school
or using a curriculum, is that course the equivalent of the state's
curriculum? Probably. If so, no problem.
If they are NOT enrolled or using a curriculum (unschooling or eclectic or
whatever), then they knew they weren't on the path to a diploma.
If someone wants a high school diploma, they're giving them out at all the
public high schools.
If someone chose not to want one, why act surprised later on?
Sandra
Sandra
<< I don't think the issue here is so much how WE feel about the diploma, but
how our kids are going to approach not having one when they reach the age of
needing one. >>
Every homeschooler has thought of that already, I'm sure.
<< But nevertheless there's still the obstacle of overcoming the age-old
tradition of having that piece of paper from the STATE. >>
And homeschoolers, not being the state, never were going to give their kids
one anyway.
They can sign up with Calvert or American School and get a diploma, or they
can get a GED. Legislation in South Carolina changes NONE of this.
Accreditation of schools is where you should be reading, I think. If we want
to be accredited, we'll be back to the requirements some states used to have
that one parent had to have teacher training, or that a homeschooling parent
had to have a college degree.
-=-We had between 650-1000 homeschoolers show up at the State House yesterday
by 9am, from all over the state. This bill was shot down in short order.-=-
So legislatures rolled from pressure from potential voters?
There are more professional educators than there are homeschooling parents.
Maybe they'll show up next time, and their union actually has some money!
-=-*REAL*??? Isn't this what we as homeschoolers are trying to overcome???
The fact that people think the only REAL thing in education is what the state
hands down?!? -=-
Are you talking about learning or are you talking about a certificate?
I don't do "education," btw--it's too structured and tainted.
I deal in learning.
Learning is a reality nobody can take away from you. The things a person
knows and the way he learns those things have nothing to do with any state or
national jurisdiction. The laws cannot keep a person from learning.
A state accredited institution has the authority to give a binding, official
diploma. That is a legal reality I chose to have nothing to do with. My
children will NOT have a state diploma. They might take a GED at some point,
but although I can creat impressive and flowery diploma text and print them a
jazzy diploma with their names in GOLD metallic foil on a $2 diploma blank,
it will not be the legal equal of a diploma from an accredited institution.
-=-I think what we're facing here is the state allowing homeschool but then
underminig the efforts of parents by refusing to acknowledge the childs
education as genuine.-=-
No, I think you were unrealistic if you thought that having children at home
was going to equal a diploma. If they're enrolled in a correspondence school
or using a curriculum, is that course the equivalent of the state's
curriculum? Probably. If so, no problem.
If they are NOT enrolled or using a curriculum (unschooling or eclectic or
whatever), then they knew they weren't on the path to a diploma.
If someone wants a high school diploma, they're giving them out at all the
public high schools.
If someone chose not to want one, why act surprised later on?
Sandra
Sandra
Kinkade
<< There are more professional educators than there are homeschooling parents. Maybe they'll show up next time, and their union actually has some money! >>
They are not likely to get involved in anything like this. They won't usually take it personally. We, homeschoolers, take it personally whenever legislation threatens our "way of life".
<< It's fairly typical of the type of thing HSLDA sends out. Every thought that goes through a legislature is seemingly a potential disaster for
homeschoolers. >>
I would have to disagree with you on this one. HSLDA, tries to "see things coming". They have done a great deal of good for homeschoolers. The truth is, in many cases, we should be thanking them. They aren't afraid to get their hands dirty for us. For instance they are right now fighting quite hard for FLORIDA parents... not just homeschoolers. There is currently a bill waiting for Gov. Bush to sign or veto, well known for being the "Government Nanny" bill. It is quite a scary thing that is in the balance. Anyone of you in Florida, should be aware of this one. Let's just say that if this bill passes, life for families in Florida will never be the same again.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
They are not likely to get involved in anything like this. They won't usually take it personally. We, homeschoolers, take it personally whenever legislation threatens our "way of life".
<< It's fairly typical of the type of thing HSLDA sends out. Every thought that goes through a legislature is seemingly a potential disaster for
homeschoolers. >>
I would have to disagree with you on this one. HSLDA, tries to "see things coming". They have done a great deal of good for homeschoolers. The truth is, in many cases, we should be thanking them. They aren't afraid to get their hands dirty for us. For instance they are right now fighting quite hard for FLORIDA parents... not just homeschoolers. There is currently a bill waiting for Gov. Bush to sign or veto, well known for being the "Government Nanny" bill. It is quite a scary thing that is in the balance. Anyone of you in Florida, should be aware of this one. Let's just say that if this bill passes, life for families in Florida will never be the same again.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/9/02 7:45:49 AM, kinkade@... writes:
<< They aren't afraid to get their hands dirty for us. >>
What are the salaries of those with the dirty hands, as it were?
<<Let's just say that if this bill passes, life for families in Florida will
never be the same again.>>
Instead of vague rhetoric like that, let's give facts.
On the other hand, let's talk about unschooling!
Unschooling works the same way regardless of local law. The way people learn
doesn't change with political action and the way people learn doesn't change
by where you live. There are some biological and psychological realities
which transcend law and even religion.
It seems (I could be wrong) that those posting about SC law and HSLDA are not
regulars on this list. I could be wrong.
It seems (I could be wrong) that discussion about diplomas and HSLDA is not
about unschooling.
Sandra
<< They aren't afraid to get their hands dirty for us. >>
What are the salaries of those with the dirty hands, as it were?
<<Let's just say that if this bill passes, life for families in Florida will
never be the same again.>>
Instead of vague rhetoric like that, let's give facts.
On the other hand, let's talk about unschooling!
Unschooling works the same way regardless of local law. The way people learn
doesn't change with political action and the way people learn doesn't change
by where you live. There are some biological and psychological realities
which transcend law and even religion.
It seems (I could be wrong) that those posting about SC law and HSLDA are not
regulars on this list. I could be wrong.
It seems (I could be wrong) that discussion about diplomas and HSLDA is not
about unschooling.
Sandra
[email protected]
For those who might not know why pushing HSLDA on this list is an idea that
makes me cranky, here is an excerpt from an article on HSLDA, and a link to
the full article, which is filled with links to their sources.
-=-The group's pervasive political focus leads some critics to charge that in
addition to acting as a home-school advocacy group, the HSLDA is actively
pursuing the goals of the religious right. Says Mark Hegener, co-founder of
Home Education Magazine, the HSLDA is "part of a socially conservative
constituency network using home schooling as a way to further its political
goals."
-=-Adds Chip Berlet, analyst at Political Research Associates and longtime
observer of the Christian right: "HSLDA shares the same goal with many other
groups that want to make schools -- whether public classrooms or home-based
ones -- a lot more conservative and fundamentalist Christian." The efforts of
HSLDA and similarly motivated organizations, says Berlet, are major players
behind recent efforts to mandate creationist curriculum and attack
environmental education, sex education and multicultural classroom material.
-=-
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/10/02/homeschooling_battle/index.html
makes me cranky, here is an excerpt from an article on HSLDA, and a link to
the full article, which is filled with links to their sources.
-=-The group's pervasive political focus leads some critics to charge that in
addition to acting as a home-school advocacy group, the HSLDA is actively
pursuing the goals of the religious right. Says Mark Hegener, co-founder of
Home Education Magazine, the HSLDA is "part of a socially conservative
constituency network using home schooling as a way to further its political
goals."
-=-Adds Chip Berlet, analyst at Political Research Associates and longtime
observer of the Christian right: "HSLDA shares the same goal with many other
groups that want to make schools -- whether public classrooms or home-based
ones -- a lot more conservative and fundamentalist Christian." The efforts of
HSLDA and similarly motivated organizations, says Berlet, are major players
behind recent efforts to mandate creationist curriculum and attack
environmental education, sex education and multicultural classroom material.
-=-
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/10/02/homeschooling_battle/index.html
Heather Woodward
We recently just battled a new bill proposed in CT - which currently is a state with pretty free homeschooling laws. Between that bill and the ones such as this diploma thing - I think it has nothing to do with the state making sure we have correctly educated our children - because it is clear that homeschoolers tend to be better educated than their public school peers. It is merely a matter of control. By requiring a specific diploma from an accredited institution they are trying to gain control. This was the same with the issues in CT. The legislatures were stating that their intent for their bill was to keep homeschoolers from using older siblings to babysit younger ones - or taking in foster children for the same reason. It was ridiculous. It has nothing to do with achieveing proper standards in education - because as is clear homeschoolers far surpass the state standards, it is all about CONTROL. Think how bad it makes them look when parents can pull their kids from the public system and succeed, while the public system is floundering - and they want to regulate us...go figure!
Ok - down from my soap box.. :)
Heather
Ok - down from my soap box.. :)
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: Betty Holder
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legislative heads up
----- Original Message -----
From: ElissaJC@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legislative heads up
I laughed because it seemed to be a funny thing to get
upset about. (the diploma itself). It strikes me as one of those sky is
falling things. But if anyone feels that I am misunderstanding, please let
me know how *you* feel.
~Elissa Cleaveland
I don't think the issue here is so much how WE feel about the diploma, but how our kids are going to approach not having one when they reach the age of needing one.
IMO meeting a standard at LEAST as high as the state's is no problem. Most homeschooled kids have surpassed that by leaps and bounds. But nevertheless there's still the obstacle of overcoming the age-old tradition of having that piece of paper from the STATE.
I know a lot of people are aware of the quality of education that a person gets from homeschooling by far exceeds the state's efforts, BUT this is still going to be an issue that we have to deal with. I can see the concern of those of us who homeschool and KNOW that our children are better educated that anything the state has turned out, yet are going to be turned away by many because the STATE has not sanctioned it.
Betty
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In a message dated 5/9/02 8:13:17 AM, bacwoodz@... writes:
<< It has nothing to do with achieveing proper standards in education -
because as is clear homeschoolers far surpass the state standards, >>
Just because the average test scores of homeschoolers who take tests are
high, on average, that doesn't mean individuals within that group take a pass
on it.
Just because my family can document the heck out of our unschooling if
necessary doesn't mean that a negligent family where the kids are getting no
parental attention doesn't exist.
Accreditation isn't new, so I don't understand why it would even be a topic
here.
MANY colleges have for years held applicants up or back for having diplomas
from sub-standard schools.
-=-it is all about CONTROL. Think how bad it makes them look when parents can
pull their kids from the public system and succeed, while the public system
is floundering - and they want to regulate us...go figure!-=-
We're already regulated. Always have been.
Even in Texas, which seems like NO laws and requirements, the legal
assumption is that the children are receiving an education equivalent to the
state's requirements. OR that the parents have settled for sub-standard
non-accredited, which religious families have been doing for years and years.
State accreditation is based on such things as which classes are offered,
which are required, what the educational and certification level of the
faculty is (parochial schools can have non-certified teachers; public schools
can't, except on provisional bases while they get certification (something
which is sometimes abused, but goes on the school's stats--they can only have
so many provisionals, and that's usually a special exception for some reason,
like they didnt' have a reading specialist so an English teacher took that
position while they looked for one, or some such--a non-certified music
teacher for a year or something like that), how current the textbooks are--I
don't know what all these days, or what it might be in South Carolina.
But it's not new.
Sandra
<< It has nothing to do with achieveing proper standards in education -
because as is clear homeschoolers far surpass the state standards, >>
Just because the average test scores of homeschoolers who take tests are
high, on average, that doesn't mean individuals within that group take a pass
on it.
Just because my family can document the heck out of our unschooling if
necessary doesn't mean that a negligent family where the kids are getting no
parental attention doesn't exist.
Accreditation isn't new, so I don't understand why it would even be a topic
here.
MANY colleges have for years held applicants up or back for having diplomas
from sub-standard schools.
-=-it is all about CONTROL. Think how bad it makes them look when parents can
pull their kids from the public system and succeed, while the public system
is floundering - and they want to regulate us...go figure!-=-
We're already regulated. Always have been.
Even in Texas, which seems like NO laws and requirements, the legal
assumption is that the children are receiving an education equivalent to the
state's requirements. OR that the parents have settled for sub-standard
non-accredited, which religious families have been doing for years and years.
State accreditation is based on such things as which classes are offered,
which are required, what the educational and certification level of the
faculty is (parochial schools can have non-certified teachers; public schools
can't, except on provisional bases while they get certification (something
which is sometimes abused, but goes on the school's stats--they can only have
so many provisionals, and that's usually a special exception for some reason,
like they didnt' have a reading specialist so an English teacher took that
position while they looked for one, or some such--a non-certified music
teacher for a year or something like that), how current the textbooks are--I
don't know what all these days, or what it might be in South Carolina.
But it's not new.
Sandra
Kinkade
<< Instead of vague rhetoric like that, let's give facts.>>
Sandra,
Obviously this is a touchy topic with you. I am sorry if I have offended you by my opinions. I just really value parents having the right to make decisions regarding their children freely, and without intimidation.
1.. S.B. 88, the Senate version of H.B. 1435, creates a new big government program called " Learning Gateway" and will involve "developing strategies for offering hospital visits or home visits by trained staff to new mothers."
2.. Upset by the defeat of H.B. 1435, Senate Majority Leader John McKay has pushed S.B. 88 into a fast track. He has pulled it from committee and sent it directly to the floor by "special order."
3.. The purpose of S.B. 88 is to "screen" children from birth to age 9 for "biological, environmental, and behavioral risks," and "learning problems." Furthermore, Learning Gateway providers will conduct "intake with families," conduct "needs/strength-based assessments of families," and "make referrals for needed services" and "developmental monitoring."
4.. This will all be done in "collaboration" with the Florida Department of Children and Family Services and numerous other big government agencies and programs.
( Ok, if you don't live in Florida you may not be aware of what Florida Department of Children and Family Services is capable of)
Recently like a little over a year ago, they "misplaced" a 5 year old girl in South Florida... only they just realized they don't know where she is... They regularly place children in homes where the "Foster" family, who is supposed to be screened, but often is not, severely hurts or kills the child... there's more but I think you get the idea. But this is the dept that will head this up.
1.. S.B. 86 and 88 mandates automatic referrals of high-risk newborns to the local Learning Gateway through the Office of Vital Statistics. Who determines what is considered "high risk"? There is no parental consent required for this referral. What happens if the parent chooses not to follow up on this referral?
2.. S.B. 86 and 88 direct that screening processes be developed and tested to address social/emotional/behavioral indicators which could be signs of future problems. Will the Florida Department of Children and Families take the child away if the parent chooses to follow his own doctor's advice instead of the government's?
3.. S.B. 86 and 88 require that an electronic data system be developed to track children who are screened, assessed, and referred for services. Will parents be able to remove the child from the government programs once the initial screening is done without their consent?
4.. S.B 86 and 88 create a huge, expensive bureaucracy, with the intent of expanding the program statewide. The pilot project is $6 million the first year for only three counties---what will it cost taxpayers to fund this program for the whole state?
This bill is currently known as S.B. 1844 and is sitting on the Gov's desk waiting for his decision. I am sorry if legal issues are not interesting to you. They are to me. I want to help insure that we, parents and homeschoolers like are free to raise our children the way we see fit. I want the freedom to refuse unnessasary medical treatment for my children. You really need to see the whole picture with the state and children. Not just Florida but the US. They already think they own our children, and that they are allowing us to take care of them for a while... this is looking like just another step towards their desire to control our children.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra,
Obviously this is a touchy topic with you. I am sorry if I have offended you by my opinions. I just really value parents having the right to make decisions regarding their children freely, and without intimidation.
1.. S.B. 88, the Senate version of H.B. 1435, creates a new big government program called " Learning Gateway" and will involve "developing strategies for offering hospital visits or home visits by trained staff to new mothers."
2.. Upset by the defeat of H.B. 1435, Senate Majority Leader John McKay has pushed S.B. 88 into a fast track. He has pulled it from committee and sent it directly to the floor by "special order."
3.. The purpose of S.B. 88 is to "screen" children from birth to age 9 for "biological, environmental, and behavioral risks," and "learning problems." Furthermore, Learning Gateway providers will conduct "intake with families," conduct "needs/strength-based assessments of families," and "make referrals for needed services" and "developmental monitoring."
4.. This will all be done in "collaboration" with the Florida Department of Children and Family Services and numerous other big government agencies and programs.
( Ok, if you don't live in Florida you may not be aware of what Florida Department of Children and Family Services is capable of)
Recently like a little over a year ago, they "misplaced" a 5 year old girl in South Florida... only they just realized they don't know where she is... They regularly place children in homes where the "Foster" family, who is supposed to be screened, but often is not, severely hurts or kills the child... there's more but I think you get the idea. But this is the dept that will head this up.
1.. S.B. 86 and 88 mandates automatic referrals of high-risk newborns to the local Learning Gateway through the Office of Vital Statistics. Who determines what is considered "high risk"? There is no parental consent required for this referral. What happens if the parent chooses not to follow up on this referral?
2.. S.B. 86 and 88 direct that screening processes be developed and tested to address social/emotional/behavioral indicators which could be signs of future problems. Will the Florida Department of Children and Families take the child away if the parent chooses to follow his own doctor's advice instead of the government's?
3.. S.B. 86 and 88 require that an electronic data system be developed to track children who are screened, assessed, and referred for services. Will parents be able to remove the child from the government programs once the initial screening is done without their consent?
4.. S.B 86 and 88 create a huge, expensive bureaucracy, with the intent of expanding the program statewide. The pilot project is $6 million the first year for only three counties---what will it cost taxpayers to fund this program for the whole state?
This bill is currently known as S.B. 1844 and is sitting on the Gov's desk waiting for his decision. I am sorry if legal issues are not interesting to you. They are to me. I want to help insure that we, parents and homeschoolers like are free to raise our children the way we see fit. I want the freedom to refuse unnessasary medical treatment for my children. You really need to see the whole picture with the state and children. Not just Florida but the US. They already think they own our children, and that they are allowing us to take care of them for a while... this is looking like just another step towards their desire to control our children.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I absolutely do *not* want HSLDA speaking for me. . . .ever. For Pete's
>I would have to disagree with you on this one. HSLDA, tries to "see things
>coming". They have done a great deal of good for homeschoolers. The truth
>is, in many cases, we should be thanking them. They aren't afraid to get
>their hands dirty for us. For instance they are right now fighting quite
>hard for FLORIDA parents... not just homeschoolers. There is currently a
>bill waiting for Gov. Bush to sign or veto, well known for being the
>"Government Nanny" bill. It is quite a scary thing that is in the balance.
>Anyone of you in Florida, should be aware of this one. Let's just say that
>if this bill passes, life for families in Florida will never be the same again.
sake, they don't even support unschoolers. I don't see why this would even
be discussed here.
Tia
What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Betty Holder
----- Original Message -----
From: ElissaJC@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legislative heads up
I laughed because it seemed to be a funny thing to get
upset about. (the diploma itself). It strikes me as one of those sky is
falling things. But if anyone feels that I am misunderstanding, please let
me know how *you* feel.
~Elissa Cleaveland
I don't think the issue here is so much how WE feel about the diploma, but how our kids are going to approach not having one when they reach the age of needing one.
IMO meeting a standard at LEAST as high as the state's is no problem. Most homeschooled kids have surpassed that by leaps and bounds. But nevertheless there's still the obstacle of overcoming the age-old tradition of having that piece of paper from the STATE.
I know a lot of people are aware of the quality of education that a person gets from homeschooling by far exceeds the state's efforts, BUT this is still going to be an issue that we have to deal with. I can see the concern of those of us who homeschool and KNOW that our children are better educated that anything the state has turned out, yet are going to be turned away by many because the STATE has not sanctioned it.
Betty
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Jennifer Ackerman
We had between 650-1000 homeschoolers show up at the State House yesterday
by 9am, from all over the state. This bill was shot down in short order.
The thing that concerned me was, not so much what this bill stood for, but
the fact that this bill did in fact pass the House and we didn't even know
about it. I don't like bills that can be detrimental to homeschoolers
being passed without our knowledge.
Jenn :-)
by 9am, from all over the state. This bill was shot down in short order.
The thing that concerned me was, not so much what this bill stood for, but
the fact that this bill did in fact pass the House and we didn't even know
about it. I don't like bills that can be detrimental to homeschoolers
being passed without our knowledge.
Jenn :-)
Julie Hiniker
Just an FYI I have issued my homeschooled children formal diplomas. i order
the ones HSLDA has on their website, have them filled out in beautiful
calligraphy and my hubby signs as principal and i as vice- principal. Never
been questioned when using it for anything. Service, jobs or looking into
college.
We had a formal graduation at our church with mom and dad presiding friends
playing music and pastor speaking for the last one who graduated. I have two
more graduating next year -- one from our homeschoola nd one from the local
public charter school. The Charter school student is having a hard time
getting his transcript accepted and understood. !!! Just to let you know
how some of us have? are doing it.
Julie in Mn
the ones HSLDA has on their website, have them filled out in beautiful
calligraphy and my hubby signs as principal and i as vice- principal. Never
been questioned when using it for anything. Service, jobs or looking into
college.
We had a formal graduation at our church with mom and dad presiding friends
playing music and pastor speaking for the last one who graduated. I have two
more graduating next year -- one from our homeschoola nd one from the local
public charter school. The Charter school student is having a hard time
getting his transcript accepted and understood. !!! Just to let you know
how some of us have? are doing it.
Julie in Mn
Betty Holder
Do people really want the law watered down to the point that any parent can
print off a diploma at any point along the way and have it be just as real as
that of an accredited school?
Sandra
*REAL*??? Isn't this what we as homeschoolers are trying to overcome??? The fact that people think the only REAL thing in education is what the state hands down?!? I think what we're facing here is the state allowing homeschool but then underminig the efforts of parents by refusing to acknowledge the childs education as genuine.
Betty
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
print off a diploma at any point along the way and have it be just as real as
that of an accredited school?
Sandra
*REAL*??? Isn't this what we as homeschoolers are trying to overcome??? The fact that people think the only REAL thing in education is what the state hands down?!? I think what we're facing here is the state allowing homeschool but then underminig the efforts of parents by refusing to acknowledge the childs education as genuine.
Betty
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Visit the Unschooling website:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Jennifer Ackerman <edje4him@s...>
wrote:
to them forcing theirs on me.
Here are some sites about H$LDA for those who are on the fence about
them. It's your call whether you want to join them or not, but please
be well informed before you do.
http://www.expage.com/page/folchslda
Poke around on this one but I think this subpage is good
http://folchslda.homestead.com/Represent.html
http://www.mainstream.net/nhpolitics/courtreports.html
Fpr those who want a ong involved one:
http://www.gomilpitas.com/homeschooling/weblinks/cases.htm
check out the stuff under this header about halfway down the page:
Gentle Spirit Case: Seelhoff vs. Welch
know what's going on in the legislatures around the country. And we
need to know what is being said on our behalf. H$LDA often intimates
that it represents ALL homeschoolers (even us) and our silence allows
that to continue unchallenged.
Bridget
wrote:
> There might be a problem with this if your were FORCED to join.HSLDA HAS
> done much to further homeschooling in the US legally. Let's beopen-minded
> and accepting of all views, not just the ones you agree with.It's not that I don't accept the views of others, it's that I object
to them forcing theirs on me.
Here are some sites about H$LDA for those who are on the fence about
them. It's your call whether you want to join them or not, but please
be well informed before you do.
http://www.expage.com/page/folchslda
Poke around on this one but I think this subpage is good
http://folchslda.homestead.com/Represent.html
http://www.mainstream.net/nhpolitics/courtreports.html
Fpr those who want a ong involved one:
http://www.gomilpitas.com/homeschooling/weblinks/cases.htm
check out the stuff under this header about halfway down the page:
Gentle Spirit Case: Seelhoff vs. Welch
>HSLDA are
> As for the postings from:
>
> "It seems (I could be wrong) that those posting about SC law and
> notI think this is an important conversation. Even unschoolers need to
> regulars on this list. I could be wrong."
>
> Some of us JUST JOINED...
>
> Jenn :-)
know what's going on in the legislatures around the country. And we
need to know what is being said on our behalf. H$LDA often intimates
that it represents ALL homeschoolers (even us) and our silence allows
that to continue unchallenged.
Bridget
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
I agree that I do NOT want them speaking for me. But, I think it is
very important that we discuss this here. Sticking our heads in the
sand and ignoring H$LDA is not going to make them go away. Talking to
new unschoolers about just what H$LDA is and represents is probably a
pretty good idea. When I was new to this, I was nearly taken in by
them myself. If my posts about them causes people to look a little
deeper before they sign on, I think that is a good thing.
Bridget
> I absolutely do *not* want HSLDA speaking for me. . . .ever. ForPete's
> sake, they don't even support unschoolers. I don't see why thiswould even
> be discussed here.Tia,
> Tia
>
I agree that I do NOT want them speaking for me. But, I think it is
very important that we discuss this here. Sticking our heads in the
sand and ignoring H$LDA is not going to make them go away. Talking to
new unschoolers about just what H$LDA is and represents is probably a
pretty good idea. When I was new to this, I was nearly taken in by
them myself. If my posts about them causes people to look a little
deeper before they sign on, I think that is a good thing.
Bridget
Fetteroll
on 5/9/02 2:23 PM, Jennifer Ackerman at edje4him@... wrote:
service, that
More on HSLDA
http://expage.com/page/folchslda
should be required reading.
perfectly fine nonintrustive law that HSLDA came in and mucked up without
asking the Michigan homeschoolers if they even wanted help.
collected and disseminated a great deal of information about HSLDA and HSLDA
cronies. So, let's keep ourselves well informed by reading more than one
side of the issue.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> There might be a problem with this if your were FORCED to join.I think before the list turns into a HSLDA dissemination and cheerleading
service, that
More on HSLDA
http://expage.com/page/folchslda
should be required reading.
> HSLDA HASI believe the homeschoolers in Michigan would strongly disagree. They had a
> done much to further homeschooling in the US legally.
perfectly fine nonintrustive law that HSLDA came in and mucked up without
asking the Michigan homeschoolers if they even wanted help.
> Let's be open-mindedThe Hegeners who support this list and the Unschooling.com website have
> and accepting of all views, not just the ones you agree with.
collected and disseminated a great deal of information about HSLDA and HSLDA
cronies. So, let's keep ourselves well informed by reading more than one
side of the issue.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Fetteroll
on 5/9/02 11:11 AM, Betty Holder at ninnyridge03@... wrote:
Most colleges rely on SAT and ACT scores. Many are familiar with
homeschooling and lack of transcripts.
There's the GED.
There's community college so an applicant can fill in "some college" and
skip the high school question entirely.
I don't need a state seal of approval for what my daughter's knows. Some
employers may question it, but there are plenty who won't.
For those who are concerned, there's some very good information at:
School is Dead, Learn in Freedom
http://www.learninfreedom.org/
Cafi Cohen's Homeschool Teens and College
http://www.homeschoolteenscollege.net/
Joyce
> but how our kids are going to approach not having one when they reach the ageThere are plenty of ways to get around not having a diploma.
> of needing one.
Most colleges rely on SAT and ACT scores. Many are familiar with
homeschooling and lack of transcripts.
There's the GED.
There's community college so an applicant can fill in "some college" and
skip the high school question entirely.
I don't need a state seal of approval for what my daughter's knows. Some
employers may question it, but there are plenty who won't.
For those who are concerned, there's some very good information at:
School is Dead, Learn in Freedom
http://www.learninfreedom.org/
Cafi Cohen's Homeschool Teens and College
http://www.homeschoolteenscollege.net/
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 5/9/02 11:53 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:
represent *all* homeschoolers regardless of style, race, religion and so on:
To join the NHEN Legislative egroup discussion about legal and legislative
issues related to homeschooling, go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NHEN-Legislative.
Joyce
> Even unschoolers need toThis is from the National Home Education Network, a group created to
> know what's going on in the legislatures around the country.
represent *all* homeschoolers regardless of style, race, religion and so on:
To join the NHEN Legislative egroup discussion about legal and legislative
issues related to homeschooling, go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NHEN-Legislative.
Joyce
Tia Leschke
>Tia,You're right. I agree that it's a good thing. My objection to the
>
>I agree that I do NOT want them speaking for me. But, I think it is
>very important that we discuss this here. Sticking our heads in the
>sand and ignoring H$LDA is not going to make them go away. Talking to
>new unschoolers about just what H$LDA is and represents is probably a
>pretty good idea. When I was new to this, I was nearly taken in by
>them myself. If my posts about them causes people to look a little
>deeper before they sign on, I think that is a good thing.
discussion was more that it was putting H$LDA in a good light.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
Ok, I just read your post Rebecca...this is all about Children and Family
services.
They don't come out to your home, they don't go around looking for
homeschooelers.
They do have social workers to evaluate people for food stamps and other
government assistance programs.
They have a load of high risk families coming to them, so these tactics for
screening are really nothing new.
They already have in place methods of screening these high risk applicants.
They offer (don't force, OFFER) these types of programs to families.
It's just a tweak of what is already happening. It has NOTHING to do with
homeschoolers, sorry.
Yes, there are gross misjudgements and overstepping of boundaries by some of
these governmental groups.
Still, we are talking about people that are using Children and family
services, not all homeschoolers. It's not going to affect you as an
unschooler.
And it isn't going to change a single FL law about homeschooling.
Please, please, please...do what many of us here have done and read more
about the truth of these issues and how they will ( or won't in this case)
affect you.
Don't assume we aren't aware.
HSLDA is not your friend.....wake up!
Ren
services.
They don't come out to your home, they don't go around looking for
homeschooelers.
They do have social workers to evaluate people for food stamps and other
government assistance programs.
They have a load of high risk families coming to them, so these tactics for
screening are really nothing new.
They already have in place methods of screening these high risk applicants.
They offer (don't force, OFFER) these types of programs to families.
It's just a tweak of what is already happening. It has NOTHING to do with
homeschoolers, sorry.
Yes, there are gross misjudgements and overstepping of boundaries by some of
these governmental groups.
Still, we are talking about people that are using Children and family
services, not all homeschoolers. It's not going to affect you as an
unschooler.
And it isn't going to change a single FL law about homeschooling.
Please, please, please...do what many of us here have done and read more
about the truth of these issues and how they will ( or won't in this case)
affect you.
Don't assume we aren't aware.
HSLDA is not your friend.....wake up!
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/9/2002 7:51:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kinkade@...
writes:
Lists have reasons for existence and the unschooling list is for talking
about unschooling. I suggest you go to the NHEN legislative list - that is
where people tend to go who really want to talk about legislation like this.
I don't have a problem with some information being passed around - but this
list is already TOO busy and people here, who ARE interested, can be referred
elsewhere.
[email protected]
--pamS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> . I am sorry if legal issues are not interesting to you. They are to me[email protected]
Lists have reasons for existence and the unschooling list is for talking
about unschooling. I suggest you go to the NHEN legislative list - that is
where people tend to go who really want to talk about legislation like this.
I don't have a problem with some information being passed around - but this
list is already TOO busy and people here, who ARE interested, can be referred
elsewhere.
[email protected]
--pamS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/9/2002 8:57:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:
talk about state legislation. (Try [email protected]) There
are 50 states in this country and there is new legislation going on all over
the place. If we start talking about legislation here, this list will
completely lose its focus.
Let's talk about unschooling.
--pamS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom@... writes:
> I think this is an important conversation. Even unschoolers need toEven unschoolers can figure out how to find someplace more appropriate to
> know what's going on in the legislatures around the country. And we
> need to know what is being said on our behalf. H$LDA often intimates
> that it represents ALL homeschoolers (even us) and our silence allows
> that to continue unchallenged.
talk about state legislation. (Try [email protected]) There
are 50 states in this country and there is new legislation going on all over
the place. If we start talking about legislation here, this list will
completely lose its focus.
Let's talk about unschooling.
--pamS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/9/02 9:30:21 AM, edje4him@... writes:
<< Let's be open-minded
and accepting of all views, not just the ones you agree with. >>
Accepting views I don't agree with as well as I accept those I DO agree with
would make me an idiot, wouldn't it? HSLDA has its own website and
propaganda machine. I tried to point out something by a totally neutral
outfit--I didn't post Cheryl's site, or HEM's article--I went for the middle.
HSLDA supporters think they ARE in the middle. They're wrong.
<<HSLDA HAS done much to further homeschooling in the US legally.>>
Sure, just ask them. Their own claims make it seem that homeschooling was
illegal before they came along and that is a full-on lie.
They don't intend to help unschoolers, and this IS an unschooling list.
-=-"It seems (I could be wrong) that those posting about SC law and HSLDA are
not regulars on this list. I could be wrong."
-=-Some of us JUST JOINED...-=-
That was my suspicion. Please join and read a while to see what's being
discussed before telling us the sky is falling but HSLDA could save us.
Sandra
<< Let's be open-minded
and accepting of all views, not just the ones you agree with. >>
Accepting views I don't agree with as well as I accept those I DO agree with
would make me an idiot, wouldn't it? HSLDA has its own website and
propaganda machine. I tried to point out something by a totally neutral
outfit--I didn't post Cheryl's site, or HEM's article--I went for the middle.
HSLDA supporters think they ARE in the middle. They're wrong.
<<HSLDA HAS done much to further homeschooling in the US legally.>>
Sure, just ask them. Their own claims make it seem that homeschooling was
illegal before they came along and that is a full-on lie.
They don't intend to help unschoolers, and this IS an unschooling list.
-=-"It seems (I could be wrong) that those posting about SC law and HSLDA are
not regulars on this list. I could be wrong."
-=-Some of us JUST JOINED...-=-
That was my suspicion. Please join and read a while to see what's being
discussed before telling us the sky is falling but HSLDA could save us.
Sandra
Jennifer Ackerman
There might be a problem with this if your were FORCED to join. HSLDA HAS
done much to further homeschooling in the US legally. Let's be open-minded
and accepting of all views, not just the ones you agree with.
As for the postings from:
"It seems (I could be wrong) that those posting about SC law and HSLDA are
not
regulars on this list. I could be wrong."
Some of us JUST JOINED...
Jenn :-)
At 10:03 AM 5/9/2002 EDT, you wrote:
done much to further homeschooling in the US legally. Let's be open-minded
and accepting of all views, not just the ones you agree with.
As for the postings from:
"It seems (I could be wrong) that those posting about SC law and HSLDA are
not
regulars on this list. I could be wrong."
Some of us JUST JOINED...
Jenn :-)
At 10:03 AM 5/9/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> For those who might not know why pushing HSLDA on this list is an ideathat in
>that
> makes me cranky, here is an excerpt from an article on HSLDA, and a link to
> the full article, which is filled with links to their sources.
>
> -=-The group's pervasive political focus leads some critics to charge
> addition to acting as a home-school advocacy group, the HSLDA is activelymaterial.
> pursuing the goals of the religious right. Says Mark Hegener, co-founder of
>"part of a socially conservative
> constituency network using home schooling as a way to further its political
>"
>
> -=-Adds Chip Berlet, analyst at Political Research Associates and longtime
>"HSLDA shares the same goal with many other
> groups that want to make schools -- whether public classrooms or home-based
>" The efforts of
> HSLDA and similarly motivated organizations, says Berlet, are major players
> behind recent efforts to mandate creationist curriculum and attack
> environmental education, sex education and multicultural classroom
> -=-
>
>
> http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/10/02/homeschooling_battle/index.html
>
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Kinkade
<< Let's be open-minded and accepting of all views, not just the ones you agree with. >>
I have always been one who believes that everyone has the right to express their own opinions. We don't all have to agree with what another person says. But I think that we should all be tolerant of each other. We are all individual. We all have our own reasons for what we believe. If you disagree with what is said, that is great. But don't get angry when you haven't changed the mind of the person you disagree with. Instead lets try to understand, we all come from different places in life. Maybe you know something we don't. Great! Share that. I know that I have learned a great deal today through this discussion. As much as it has been said that this discussion doesn't belong here... I think it does. We are here to learn, to gain knowledge from those who have traveled this road before us. I can honestly say, that I have gained more today than you can imagine.
<< Accepting views I don't agree with as well as I accept those I DO agree with would make me an idiot, wouldn't it? >>
Perhaps... but accepting peoples right to different views won't make you an idiot. It will make you tolerant. It reminds me of prejudices. "If you aren't what I am, or believe what I believe, then you are wrong!" That is a dangerous attitude, don't you think?
I intend to follow the links that were provided. I also intend to do some more research on my own about HSLDA. If I gave the impression that I was promoting them, I am truly sorry. I was simply replying to what another post was about. The only reason I gave the more detailed information about the issue in FL is because I was "requested" to do so. I didn't originally go into it, because I didn't think this was the place to discuss FL law.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have always been one who believes that everyone has the right to express their own opinions. We don't all have to agree with what another person says. But I think that we should all be tolerant of each other. We are all individual. We all have our own reasons for what we believe. If you disagree with what is said, that is great. But don't get angry when you haven't changed the mind of the person you disagree with. Instead lets try to understand, we all come from different places in life. Maybe you know something we don't. Great! Share that. I know that I have learned a great deal today through this discussion. As much as it has been said that this discussion doesn't belong here... I think it does. We are here to learn, to gain knowledge from those who have traveled this road before us. I can honestly say, that I have gained more today than you can imagine.
<< Accepting views I don't agree with as well as I accept those I DO agree with would make me an idiot, wouldn't it? >>
Perhaps... but accepting peoples right to different views won't make you an idiot. It will make you tolerant. It reminds me of prejudices. "If you aren't what I am, or believe what I believe, then you are wrong!" That is a dangerous attitude, don't you think?
I intend to follow the links that were provided. I also intend to do some more research on my own about HSLDA. If I gave the impression that I was promoting them, I am truly sorry. I was simply replying to what another post was about. The only reason I gave the more detailed information about the issue in FL is because I was "requested" to do so. I didn't originally go into it, because I didn't think this was the place to discuss FL law.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kinkade
<< Still, we are talking about people that are using Children and family services, not all homeschoolers. It's not going to affect you as an unschooler. And it isn't going to change a single FL law about homeschooling. >>
No, this is not talking about people who are "using" Children and Family services... we are talking about every woman who delivers a baby. This first contact / interview will take place in the hospital. The child/ren will be followed until age 9. Recommendations for health, educational, and other services will be "recommended". If you don't comply or want this, you have no choice. There is nothing in this that allows for a family to opt out. That last part is what bothers me. Just for the record to be set straight, I didn't first hear about this from HSLDA, I just know that they are trying to stop it.
<< Please, please, please...do what many of us here have done and read more about the truth of these issues and how they will ( or won't in this case) affect you. >>
This case will affect me as a FL resident. It will affect anyone living in FL.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No, this is not talking about people who are "using" Children and Family services... we are talking about every woman who delivers a baby. This first contact / interview will take place in the hospital. The child/ren will be followed until age 9. Recommendations for health, educational, and other services will be "recommended". If you don't comply or want this, you have no choice. There is nothing in this that allows for a family to opt out. That last part is what bothers me. Just for the record to be set straight, I didn't first hear about this from HSLDA, I just know that they are trying to stop it.
<< Please, please, please...do what many of us here have done and read more about the truth of these issues and how they will ( or won't in this case) affect you. >>
This case will affect me as a FL resident. It will affect anyone living in FL.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/9/02 12:53:41 PM, kinkade@... writes:
<< I also intend to do some more research on my own about HSLDA. If I gave
the impression that I was promoting them, I am truly sorry. >>
I've read about them for years, since I started homeschooling. At first they
sent me all their applications and scare-mail. I asked around about whether
we should join. I read their literature and the opposing stuff. I decided
against it.
Later I met Cheryl Seelhoff online and heard some horrible things, and
started watching again more closely, for another round.
<<I was simply replying to what another post was about. The only reason I
gave the more detailed information about the issue in FL is because I was
"requested" to do so. I didn't originally go into it, because I didn't think
this was the place to discuss FL law. >>>
Sorry if I overreacted then. What I saw was two people whose names I didn't
recognize leaving scare stories here, and the Florida summary without detail
matched almost exactly some of the HSLDA tactics. We were told when Clinton
was first going to run for president that if we voted for him we would
probably lose our right to homeschool, and our daughters would never be safe.
Those kinds of political "advisements" [VOTE FOR THIS OR YOUR LIFE WILL
CHANGE HORRIBLY!!!!] are irritating, and even more irritating is the fact
that there is apparently a small army of people who respond to it. When
HSLDA sends out a state advisory to call your representatives and congressmen
TODAY and say THIS: and gives the script, or a form letter, or an e-mail
form letter, I suppose some people gasp and run to do it. The effect of
that must be to make legislators think homeschoolers are easily-panicked
sheep.
Being neither a blind follower nor easily panicked, I'm ashamed of the
association.
Sandra
<< I also intend to do some more research on my own about HSLDA. If I gave
the impression that I was promoting them, I am truly sorry. >>
I've read about them for years, since I started homeschooling. At first they
sent me all their applications and scare-mail. I asked around about whether
we should join. I read their literature and the opposing stuff. I decided
against it.
Later I met Cheryl Seelhoff online and heard some horrible things, and
started watching again more closely, for another round.
<<I was simply replying to what another post was about. The only reason I
gave the more detailed information about the issue in FL is because I was
"requested" to do so. I didn't originally go into it, because I didn't think
this was the place to discuss FL law. >>>
Sorry if I overreacted then. What I saw was two people whose names I didn't
recognize leaving scare stories here, and the Florida summary without detail
matched almost exactly some of the HSLDA tactics. We were told when Clinton
was first going to run for president that if we voted for him we would
probably lose our right to homeschool, and our daughters would never be safe.
Those kinds of political "advisements" [VOTE FOR THIS OR YOUR LIFE WILL
CHANGE HORRIBLY!!!!] are irritating, and even more irritating is the fact
that there is apparently a small army of people who respond to it. When
HSLDA sends out a state advisory to call your representatives and congressmen
TODAY and say THIS: and gives the script, or a form letter, or an e-mail
form letter, I suppose some people gasp and run to do it. The effect of
that must be to make legislators think homeschoolers are easily-panicked
sheep.
Being neither a blind follower nor easily panicked, I'm ashamed of the
association.
Sandra