[email protected]

In a message dated 5/2/2002 7:15:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> You can "make" a child "do math." They do it all the time in school. That
> means you can cause them by threat or force or shame or whatever to sit and
>
> put numbers on a piece of paper. But they're not really doing anything
> themselves, and you can make them loathe numbers on paper.

I have fairly recently come to an even more radical new understanding of the
harm that is done by having kids doing school math throughout their
elementary school years. I've been tutoring several high school age kids and
several adults, individually, to help them get ready for various exams that
they want to take (CHSPE and CBEST and SAT). Several things have really
struck me.

1. Anxiety about math, anxiety that started in primary or secondary school,
is REALLY TRULY something that blocks intelligent, motivated peoples' brains
from being able to learn. Even anxiety that only appears to be a bit mild,
even anxiety that people don't recognize as anxiety, has a HUGE blocking
affect. People who get all twitchy and have actual physical reactions to
math, whose head starts to hurt just thinking about it, whose eyes glaze over
and who physically turn their heads away when something looks mathy, who have
such a strong reaction to it that they KNOW they are anxious about it - those
are just the tip of a HUGE iceberg. Most math-anxious people don't have such
strong physical or emotional reactions. Most just sort of shut down when math
is brought up. "I understand math okay, I just don't like it much." "I just
mostly avoid math." "I did fine in math, but never felt like I really
understood it." "I liked arithmetic until we got to algebra." These are all
indications of math anxiety, too. It is truly epidemic.

2. I have come to believe that MOST adults suffer from enough math anxiety
that it holds them back and prevents them from understanding things they
ought to understand, prevents them from choosing careers or hobbies that
they'd really enjoy, encourages them to leave significant technical decisions
to other people, disempowers people - makes them feel powerless and slightly
overwhelmed by the world around them, leaves them unable to intelligently
consider statistical data so they either give too much credence to it (become
gullible) or too little (say things like, "statistics can prove anything" and
completely ignore all quantitative evidence JUST because it is quantitative).

3. IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT. Those of us with less math anxiety are mostly just
lucky!!! Some of us are just extra contrary - I RECOGNIZED, for example, that
I was being more or less "programmed" to think I couldn't do or understand
math, that it was too hard and too much work and that girls, especially,
ought to just do their best but not expect too much from themselves. I was
lucky that I had a quiet, but very contrary and stubborn, nature AND that I
was in high school in the 60's and had a feminist math teacher. I wasn't
going to let "the establishment" keep me from doing something just because I
was a GIRL - so I mentally battled all the math anxiety that I had (and I DID
have a fair amount - especially the kind that says, "You're a fake, you're
just memorizing how to do this stuff and you don't relly understand it and
one of these days they're going to FIND YOU OUT and you'll be humiliated.")
Because I worked hard at overcoming the tidal wave of reasons I shouldn't
understand math, and because I got labeled (by friends and family) as being
"good at math," I just kept trying to understand - out of FEAR of being
shamed and of letting people down. So I pushed through it - but very very few
people did. Neither of my sisters survived school unscathed by extreme math
anxiety. Both men and women suffer from it. All this math anxiety is not
"natural." It was and is still being caused by schools.

4. The problem is what is taught. Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Fill in the blank. A negative number multiplied by another negative number
gives a _________ answer. (positive) If you know this - can you explain why
it is true?

To change a decimal number to a percentage, what do you do with the decimal
point? (.75 becomes 75% -- you move the decimal point two places to the
right.) Can you easily and quickly explain why?

How do you divide one fraction by another one? Invert and multiply. So (1/2
divided by 1/4) is (1/2 times 4/1) which is 4/2 or 2. What? Dividing one
fraction by another one gives you a number bigger than either of those you
started with? Why?

If you can DO these but not explain them, you're a victim of school math. (If
you refused to even have a look at them - if you skimmed right past the
little math questions and didn't let yourself even try to think about them,
you're a victim of school math, too.) If you could explain them, you are one
of the very very few adults who can and I'd be interested in hearing from you
about how you did get through school with this ability.

I can read Italian - I can read it with a pretty darn good accent, even.
Someone taught me the pronunciation "rules" and I can do it well. I don't
understand more than a tiny fraction of what I'm reading and I know I'm
almost entirely faking it and it is a worthless skill for me to have (maybe
unless I'm an opera singer) and if I read aloud in Italian to Italians they'd
discover I was a fake right away (probably by the mistakes in my intonation -
I'd put emphasis in the wrong places in the sentences since I don't
understand what I'm reading.)

Schools actually TEACH kids to do math in an equivalent way. They teach rules
to follow, they teach HOW to do arithmetic, to kids who don't understand what
they're doing - the kids practice adding and subtracting, multiplying and
dividing, reducing fractions and finding "greatest common factors" and
working with negative numbers and all the rest of that - as if learning the
rules for manipulating numbers was the same as learning math. That is no more
true than learning the rules for pronouncing Italian words is the same as
learning the Italian language.

5. The problem is also WHEN stuff is taught.
Kids need to develop their math understanding - to have opportunities to
develop understanding of concepts - before they learn computation rules and
methods. They need to learn techniques at the right time - when the need
comes up as a natural outgrowth of fooling with the concepts. If they haven't
really given any thought yet to what happens and what it really means when
dividing one fraction by another fraction, but, because it is on the school
schedule, they are taught to divide one fraction by another by inverting and
multiplying, then that's it - they move on to something else. They may or may
not remember the technique later (since it was taught out of context and
before they could understand why it works) and they likely will never ever
again think about what is really happening when dividing one fraction by
another fraction. They never developed or investigated the concept, but
they've "learned" how to do it (whatever IT really is - they don't really
know) and few people will EVER really consider the question again -
especially since most will have developed significant math anxiety by that
time or shortly thereafter and will NOT think pondering what dividing one
fraction by another really means is any fun at all.

More to come - I've run out of time this morning.....

I'd REALLY like to hear your comments on these ideas, including your own
experiences.

--pam sorooshian


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vicki A. Dennis

Long term favorite topic of mine! See remarks interspersed below. Sorry not enough time for long explanations. I agree that the way arithmetic and other mathematics is taught leads to math incompetence and math phobia just as surely as the forced reading instruction and early intervention and intensive reading readiness work leads to greater numbers of either non-readers or very reluctant readers.

vicki
----- Original Message -----
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math (was diapers/ was curriculum)


Schools actually TEACH kids to do math in an equivalent way. They teach rules
to follow,

***My older son and I use the shorthand "cookbook" math about such courses who list recipes to solve problems and call it math.




- as if learning the
rules for manipulating numbers was the same as learning math. That is no more
true than learning the rules for pronouncing Italian words is the same as
learning the Italian language.

***a good picture. I will add to examples when I try to explain to folks (Or to hardened teachers) WHY making A's in "math" (even elementary school arithmetic is called math these days) through 13 years of school does NOT mean a student can think mathematically. In fact, most likely s/he has already been "ruined" for such thinking.

they've "learned" how to do it (whatever IT really is - they don't really
know)

***And even if the "answer" to a "word" problem would be incredibly ridiculous if they ever thought about their own life experiences, they will insist it MUST be right cuz they used the right formula and "did the math"!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nora or Devereaux Cannon

Actually I like cookbook math - doubling a cookie recipe or
converting a cheesecake recipe from a 9" springform pan to a 10"
volume - covers a myriad of traditional math phobia inducing
topics deliciously. I also commend quilted math; there is
nothing about angles that doesn't become intuitive when piecing a
complex quilt.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Vicki A. Dennis" <mamaxaos@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math (was diapers/ was
curriculum)


| Long term favorite topic of mine! See remarks interspersed
below. Sorry not enough time for long explanations. I agree
that the way arithmetic and other mathematics is taught leads to
math incompetence and math phobia just as surely as the forced
reading instruction and early intervention and intensive reading
readiness work leads to greater numbers of either non-readers or
very reluctant readers.
|
| vicki
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: PSoroosh@...
| To: [email protected]
| Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:29 AM
| Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math (was diapers/ was
curriculum)
|
|
| Schools actually TEACH kids to do math in an equivalent way.
They teach rules
| to follow,
|
| ***My older son and I use the shorthand "cookbook" math about
such courses who list recipes to solve problems and call it math.
|
|
|
|
| - as if learning the
| rules for manipulating numbers was the same as learning math.
That is no more
| true than learning the rules for pronouncing Italian words is
the same as
| learning the Italian language.
|
| ***a good picture. I will add to examples when I try to
explain to folks (Or to hardened teachers) WHY making A's in
"math" (even elementary school arithmetic is called math these
days) through 13 years of school does NOT mean a student can
think mathematically. In fact, most likely s/he has already
been "ruined" for such thinking.
|
| they've "learned" how to do it (whatever IT really is - they
don't really
| know)
|
| ***And even if the "answer" to a "word" problem would be
incredibly ridiculous if they ever thought about their own life
experiences, they will insist it MUST be right cuz they used the
right formula and "did the math"!
|
|
|
|
|
| [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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|
| ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject
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|
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|

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/2/02 10:34:22 AM, PSoroosh@... writes:

<< makes them feel powerless and slightly
overwhelmed by the world around them, leaves them unable to intelligently
consider statistical data so they either give too much credence to it (become
gullible) >>

Even people's own personal logic suffers because once it starts to feel like
math in their heads, they shut it out.

Just today at www.unschooling.com someone anonymous (using another name) who
might or might not be here said that as a pre-school teacher it is her
experience that kids who watch TV are less attentive, less independently
imaginative, and have a need to be entertained.

Why didn't it occur to her that a child who's not into schooly stuff, who
isn't very imaginative or independent and would like to be entertained could
get a lot of benefit out of TV?

Nope. Pre-formed opinions and prejudices, and a lack of clarity about cause
and effect led to an inability to rearrange factors and to explore
possibilities.

I have number phobias, but I'm not bad with word-logic, or "word problems."

I had quit reading Pam's post halfway through, with this one written up to
the line above this, and helped Holly set up an apple crisp recipe (now in
the oven). We didn't have the right two dishes, so used three small dishes,
which made me figure we should double the topping recipe. She was right on
that, no problem. I said something about two times 1/4, and she told me it
would be easier if I just said two fourths. That's true.

So I was in here typing the paragraph above, and halfway through Holly came
in with a question (and I took notes, on the pretense of needing to write it
down to be clear, but really I was excited and didn't want to forget it to
tell you guys).

"Is two times twelve the same as twelve times two?"

"Yes."

"Is it like that with everything?"

So I wrote it down and asked her what she meant by "everything."

She wondered if all multiplication was like that.

I didn't name any mathematical rules or principles by name, no commutatives
or anything. What I said was some multiplication was really cool, like 1/2
of 12 was the same as twelve halves. I used the example of measuring flour
if you only had a 1/2 cup measure.

She had interrupted by then though, and said "Like flipping a coin twelve
times instead of flipping twelve coins one time!?"

She understands it better than I do.

I told her in addition and multiplication you could switch either way, but
not with subtraction--

I showed her a number line and that 3-1 isn't the same as 1-3, but that
they're equivalent distances, and the absolute number is the same (the answer
is "two" both times, the only difference is whether it's plus or minus two).
She was ahead of me on that too.

Not bad for five minutes!!

Sandra

joanna514

> I'd REALLY like to hear your comments on these ideas, including
your own
> experiences.
>
> --pam sorooshian
>
>
Dang, Pam!
I'm printing this one out!
I admit, I was a skimmer for the math questions. I started to try to
do the negative numbers one and my brain froze up and I read but
didn't even try the others. :-(
I'VE BEEN DAMAGED!!!
Like I didn't already know that.
Keep it coming!
Joanna

Tia Leschke

>
>More to come - I've run out of time this morning.....

I'm looking forward to it . . .*and* those explanations. <g>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Suzanna and Darrell

Thanks, for this post! My husband has been reluctant to let go of alot of
the schoolish ways even though he now hates math and hates to read. He even
had guidance counselors and teachers tell him not to bother with college
because he wasn't cut out for it. I am going to print out your post and have
him read it! He has loosened up a lot lately, but not enough. He is just
afraid that they won't learn enough math or be good enough readers if we
don't make them do it. They were both at "high school reading level" when we
pulled them out of elementary school, so I don't know why he is worried
about their reading abilities.

Thanks,
Suzanna

>> You can "make" a child "do math." They do it all the time in school.
That
>> means you can cause them by threat or force or shame or whatever to sit
and
>>
>> put numbers on a piece of paper. But they're not really doing anything
>> themselves, and you can make them loathe numbers on paper.

>I have fairly recently come to an even more radical new understanding of
the
>harm that is done by having kids doing school math throughout their
>elementary school years. I've been tutoring several high school age kids
and
>several adults, individually, to help them get ready for various exams that
>they want to take (CHSPE and CBEST and SAT). Several things have really
>struck me.

>1. Anxiety about math, anxiety that started in primary or secondary school,
>is REALLY TRULY something that blocks intelligent, motivated peoples'
brains
>from being able to learn. Even anxiety that only appears to be a bit mild,
>even anxiety that people don't recognize as anxiety, has a HUGE blocking
>affect. People who get all twitchy and have actual physical reactions to
>math, whose head starts to hurt just thinking about it, whose eyes glaze
over
>and who physically turn their heads away when something looks mathy, who
have
>such a strong reaction to it that they KNOW they are anxious about it -
those
>are just the tip of a HUGE iceberg. Most math-anxious people don't have
such
>strong physical or emotional reactions. Most just sort of shut down when
math
>is brought up. "I understand math okay, I just don't like it much." "I just
>mostly avoid math." "I did fine in math, but never felt like I really
>understood it." "I liked arithmetic until we got to algebra." These are all
>indications of math anxiety, too. It is truly epidemic.
>
>2. I have come to believe that MOST adults suffer from enough math anxiety
>that it holds them back and prevents them from understanding things they
>ought to understand, prevents them from choosing careers or hobbies that
>they'd really enjoy, encourages them to leave significant technical
decisions
>to other people, disempowers people - makes them feel powerless and
slightly
>overwhelmed by the world around them, leaves them unable to intelligently
>consider statistical data so they either give too much credence to it
(become
>gullible) or too little (say things like, "statistics can prove anything"
and
>completely ignore all quantitative evidence JUST because it is
quantitative).
>
>3. IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT. Those of us with less math anxiety are mostly
just
>lucky!!! Some of us are just extra contrary - I RECOGNIZED, for example,
that
>I was being more or less "programmed" to think I couldn't do or understand
>math, that it was too hard and too much work and that girls, especially,
>ought to just do their best but not expect too much from themselves. I was
>lucky that I had a quiet, but very contrary and stubborn, nature AND that I
>was in high school in the 60's and had a feminist math teacher. I wasn't
>going to let "the establishment" keep me from doing something just because
I
>was a GIRL - so I mentally battled all the math anxiety that I had (and I
DID
>have a fair amount - especially the kind that says, "You're a fake, you're
>just memorizing how to do this stuff and you don't relly understand it and
>one of these days they're going to FIND YOU OUT and you'll be humiliated.")
>Because I worked hard at overcoming the tidal wave of reasons I shouldn't
>understand math, and because I got labeled (by friends and family) as being
>"good at math," I just kept trying to understand - out of FEAR of being
>shamed and of letting people down. So I pushed through it - but very very
few
>people did. Neither of my sisters survived school unscathed by extreme math
>anxiety. Both men and women suffer from it. All this math anxiety is not
>"natural." It was and is still being caused by schools.
>
>4. The problem is what is taught. Let me ask you a couple of questions.
>
>Fill in the blank. A negative number multiplied by another negative number
>gives a _________ answer. (positive) If you know this - can you explain
why
>it is true?
>
>To change a decimal number to a percentage, what do you do with the decimal
>point? (.75 becomes 75% -- you move the decimal point two places to the
>right.) Can you easily and quickly explain why?
>
>How do you divide one fraction by another one? Invert and multiply. So (1/2
>divided by 1/4) is (1/2 times 4/1) which is 4/2 or 2. What? Dividing one
>fraction by another one gives you a number bigger than either of those you
>started with? Why?
>
>If you can DO these but not explain them, you're a victim of school math.
(If
>you refused to even have a look at them - if you skimmed right past the
>little math questions and didn't let yourself even try to think about them,
>you're a victim of school math, too.) If you could explain them, you are
one
>of the very very few adults who can and I'd be interested in hearing from
you
>about how you did get through school with this ability.

>I can read Italian - I can read it with a pretty darn good accent, even.
>Someone taught me the pronunciation "rules" and I can do it well. I don't
>understand more than a tiny fraction of what I'm reading and I know I'm
>almost entirely faking it and it is a worthless skill for me to have (maybe
>unless I'm an opera singer) and if I read aloud in Italian to Italians
they'd
>discover I was a fake right away (probably by the mistakes in my
intonation -
>I'd put emphasis in the wrong places in the sentences since I don't
>understand what I'm reading.)

>Schools actually TEACH kids to do math in an equivalent way. They teach
rules
>to follow, they teach HOW to do arithmetic, to kids who don't understand
what
>they're doing - the kids practice adding and subtracting, multiplying and
>dividing, reducing fractions and finding "greatest common factors" and
>working with negative numbers and all the rest of that - as if learning the
>rules for manipulating numbers was the same as learning math. That is no
more
>true than learning the rules for pronouncing Italian words is the same as
>learning the Italian language.

>5. The problem is also WHEN stuff is taught.
>Kids need to develop their math understanding - to have opportunities to
>develop understanding of concepts - before they learn computation rules and
>methods. They need to learn techniques at the right time - when the need
>comes up as a natural outgrowth of fooling with the concepts. If they
haven't
>really given any thought yet to what happens and what it really means when
>dividing one fraction by another fraction, but, because it is on the school
>schedule, they are taught to divide one fraction by another by inverting
and
>multiplying, then that's it - they move on to something else. They may or
may
>not remember the technique later (since it was taught out of context and
>before they could understand why it works) and they likely will never ever
>again think about what is really happening when dividing one fraction by
>another fraction. They never developed or investigated the concept, but
>they've "learned" how to do it (whatever IT really is - they don't really
>know) and few people will EVER really consider the question again -
>especially since most will have developed significant math anxiety by that
>time or shortly thereafter and will NOT think pondering what dividing one
>fraction by another really means is any fun at all.

>More to come - I've run out of time this morning.....

>I'd REALLY like to hear your comments on these ideas, including your own
>experiences.

>--pam sorooshian

Elizabeth Hill

**1. Anxiety about math, anxiety that started in primary or secondary
school,
is REALLY TRULY something that blocks intelligent, motivated peoples'
brains
from being able to learn.**

Hey, Pam --

So true!

I just got my California Homeschooler journal today and I was so excited
to see that Frank Smith is doing a book on this topic.

Quote "Teachers College Press will publish his latest book, The Glass
Wall, Why Mathematics Can Seem Difficult, in summer 2002"

Betsy

[email protected]

I went to Jr. High in the era of "individualized instruction." Which meant,
in our school anyway, that we each had headphones, a cassette tape set and a
workbook. We did SRA Math and we could listen to a tape over and over and
then take the test as many times as we wanted. When we got a C or higher, we
moved on to the next test.

So, I memorized what I had to for each unit and that was it. By the time I
got to college math, I was seriously phobic because I didn't understand
anything. And all I cared about was getting a good enough grade to stay in
my major. I took statistics and probability for my Psych major, and had to
take it twice. Then, when I realized I was going to have to take Advanced
Stats, I was terrified. I hired a tutor and all I told him was...I don't
care about theory or why this stuff is done. All I want to do is get a B or
a C and be done with this. And that was the last formal math experience I
ever had.

Until teaching my children. And doing with them the same thing I'd had
"done" to me, because I wasn't sure any other way to go about it.

I'm still not sure how to get to that "informal" place where I can explore
the fascination of math with my kids, because I don't even know where that
place is. I had to laugh when I read Pam's little quiz and the notes
underneath about the person who just skimmed through the problems and tried
to ignore them. That's me to a tee.

So, I feel in between a rock and a hard place with this subject. I
understand the drawbacks you and others have pointed out about "teaching
math." But, I know it's not good to ignore the subject either and I'm afraid
that's what I'll do. How do we make it fun again...start at square one? And
where exactly is that?

Math Phobic to the max...

Caro


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nora or Devereaux Cannon

Back to square one: One squared is One ....

I know that I have significant holes in my math confidence - and
they fall in precisely those places that for some reason had not
come up in my "real life" before they were muddied up in school.
I remember, at about age 3, hearing the story of the man who
tricked the Emperor of China - with a chess board and some rice.
The Schtick is that the Emperor was to put one grain of rice on
the first square of the chess board, 2 on the next, then 4, then
16 - squaring the number of grains for each of the 64 squares. I
made it all the way across the first row (counting the square
obligingly given me by me grandfather, before I understood that
it worked). A couple of years later, we had an adding machine in
the house (dating myself here). My father casually mentioned
that all the multiples of nine had digits that added up to a
multiple of nine. I probably went through a case of machine tape
exploring that wonder. And there were always puzzle books
around, written at various grade levels, but full of the
mysteries of how a theorem is proved and what you can do to
calculate how high you threw a ball, with nothing more
significant than a 45 degree angle made by folding the corner of
a piece of typing paper and 2 drinking straws to view along.

On the other hand, I am clueless about percentages - at home we
just converted fractions to decimals and went on without thinking
about 30% increase, so when that mess was crammed into my head,
it found no where to live. But the math that I acquired
naturally, because it was waaaay cool - or because I needed it to
get where I was headed stuck with me forever. So go back to
squaring one with math trivia and puzzle books and maybe with a
truly math literate friend who will see the math word play
immediately.


----- Original Message -----
From: <Burkfamily@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math (was diapers/ was
curriculum)


| I went to Jr. High in the era of "individualized instruction."
Which meant,
| in our school anyway, that we each had headphones, a cassette
tape set and a
| workbook. We did SRA Math and we could listen to a tape over
and over and
| then take the test as many times as we wanted. When we got a C
or higher, we
| moved on to the next test.
|
| So, I memorized what I had to for each unit and that was it.
By the time I
| got to college math, I was seriously phobic because I didn't
understand
| anything. And all I cared about was getting a good enough
grade to stay in
| my major. I took statistics and probability for my Psych
major, and had to
| take it twice. Then, when I realized I was going to have to
take Advanced
| Stats, I was terrified. I hired a tutor and all I told him
was...I don't
| care about theory or why this stuff is done. All I want to do
is get a B or
| a C and be done with this. And that was the last formal math
experience I
| ever had.
|
| Until teaching my children. And doing with them the same thing
I'd had
| "done" to me, because I wasn't sure any other way to go about
it.
|
| I'm still not sure how to get to that "informal" place where I
can explore
| the fascination of math with my kids, because I don't even know
where that
| place is. I had to laugh when I read Pam's little quiz and the
notes
| underneath about the person who just skimmed through the
problems and tried
| to ignore them. That's me to a tee.
|
| So, I feel in between a rock and a hard place with this
subject. I
| understand the drawbacks you and others have pointed out about
"teaching
| math." But, I know it's not good to ignore the subject either
and I'm afraid
| that's what I'll do. How do we make it fun again...start at
square one? And
| where exactly is that?
|
| Math Phobic to the max...
|
| Caro
|
|
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Hazy_lilly

I just read a book that my husband brought home called
Math Power How to help your child love math, even if
you Don't by Patricia Clark Kenschaft.

On the front cover it has Preventing math anxiety as
part of the list of the book.

It is not a complete unschooler's point of view of
math, but it helped. I think you can view the pages
on Amazon.com

Hazel

--- Suzanna and Darrell <truealaskans@...>
wrote:
> Thanks, for this post! My husband has been reluctant
> to let go of alot of
> the schoolish ways even though he now hates math and
> hates to read. He even
> had guidance counselors and teachers tell him not to
> bother with college
> because he wasn't cut out for it. I am going to
> print out your post and have
> him read it! He has loosened up a lot lately, but
> not enough. He is just
> afraid that they won't learn enough math or be good
> enough readers if we
> don't make them do it. They were both at "high
> school reading level" when we
> pulled them out of elementary school, so I don't
> know why he is worried
> about their reading abilities.
>
> Thanks,
> Suzanna
>
> >> You can "make" a child "do math." They do it all
> the time in school.
> That
> >> means you can cause them by threat or force or
> shame or whatever to sit
> and
> >>
> >> put numbers on a piece of paper. But they're not
> really doing anything
> >> themselves, and you can make them loathe numbers
> on paper.
>
> >I have fairly recently come to an even more radical
> new understanding of
> the
> >harm that is done by having kids doing school math
> throughout their
> >elementary school years. I've been tutoring several
> high school age kids
> and
> >several adults, individually, to help them get
> ready for various exams that
> >they want to take (CHSPE and CBEST and SAT).
> Several things have really
> >struck me.
>
> >1. Anxiety about math, anxiety that started in
> primary or secondary school,
> >is REALLY TRULY something that blocks intelligent,
> motivated peoples'
> brains
> >from being able to learn. Even anxiety that only
> appears to be a bit mild,
> >even anxiety that people don't recognize as
> anxiety, has a HUGE blocking
> >affect. People who get all twitchy and have actual
> physical reactions to
> >math, whose head starts to hurt just thinking about
> it, whose eyes glaze
> over
> >and who physically turn their heads away when
> something looks mathy, who
> have
> >such a strong reaction to it that they KNOW they
> are anxious about it -
> those
> >are just the tip of a HUGE iceberg. Most
> math-anxious people don't have
> such
> >strong physical or emotional reactions. Most just
> sort of shut down when
> math
> >is brought up. "I understand math okay, I just
> don't like it much." "I just
> >mostly avoid math." "I did fine in math, but never
> felt like I really
> >understood it." "I liked arithmetic until we got to
> algebra." These are all
> >indications of math anxiety, too. It is truly
> epidemic.
> >
> >2. I have come to believe that MOST adults suffer
> from enough math anxiety
> >that it holds them back and prevents them from
> understanding things they
> >ought to understand, prevents them from choosing
> careers or hobbies that
> >they'd really enjoy, encourages them to leave
> significant technical
> decisions
> >to other people, disempowers people - makes them
> feel powerless and
> slightly
> >overwhelmed by the world around them, leaves them
> unable to intelligently
> >consider statistical data so they either give too
> much credence to it
> (become
> >gullible) or too little (say things like,
> "statistics can prove anything"
> and
> >completely ignore all quantitative evidence JUST
> because it is
> quantitative).
> >
> >3. IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT. Those of us with less
> math anxiety are mostly
> just
> >lucky!!! Some of us are just extra contrary - I
> RECOGNIZED, for example,
> that
> >I was being more or less "programmed" to think I
> couldn't do or understand
> >math, that it was too hard and too much work and
> that girls, especially,
> >ought to just do their best but not expect too much
> from themselves. I was
> >lucky that I had a quiet, but very contrary and
> stubborn, nature AND that I
> >was in high school in the 60's and had a feminist
> math teacher. I wasn't
> >going to let "the establishment" keep me from doing
> something just because
> I
> >was a GIRL - so I mentally battled all the math
> anxiety that I had (and I
> DID
> >have a fair amount - especially the kind that says,
> "You're a fake, you're
> >just memorizing how to do this stuff and you don't
> relly understand it and
> >one of these days they're going to FIND YOU OUT and
> you'll be humiliated.")
> >Because I worked hard at overcoming the tidal wave
> of reasons I shouldn't
> >understand math, and because I got labeled (by
> friends and family) as being
> >"good at math," I just kept trying to understand -
> out of FEAR of being
> >shamed and of letting people down. So I pushed
> through it - but very very
> few
> >people did. Neither of my sisters survived school
> unscathed by extreme math
> >anxiety. Both men and women suffer from it. All
> this math anxiety is not
> >"natural." It was and is still being caused by
> schools.
> >
> >4. The problem is what is taught. Let me ask you a
> couple of questions.
> >
> >Fill in the blank. A negative number multiplied by
> another negative number
> >gives a _________ answer. (positive) If you know
> this - can you explain
> why
> >it is true?
> >
> >To change a decimal number to a percentage, what do
> you do with the decimal
> >point? (.75 becomes 75% -- you move the decimal
> point two places to the
> >right.) Can you easily and quickly explain why?
> >
> >How do you divide one fraction by another one?
> Invert and multiply. So (1/2
> >divided by 1/4) is (1/2 times 4/1) which is 4/2 or
> 2. What? Dividing one
> >fraction by another one gives you a number bigger
> than either of those you
> >started with? Why?
> >
> >If you can DO these but not explain them, you're a
> victim of school math.
> (If
> >you refused to even have a look at them - if you
> skimmed right past the
> >little math questions and didn't let yourself even
> try to think about them,
> >you're a victim of school math, too.) If you could
> explain them, you are
> one
> >of the very very few adults who can and I'd be
> interested in hearing from
> you
> >about how you did get through school with this
> ability.
>
> >I can read Italian - I can read it with a pretty
> darn good accent, even.
> >Someone taught me the pronunciation "rules" and I
> can do it well. I don't
> >understand more than a tiny fraction of what I'm
> reading and I know I'm
> >almost entirely faking it and it is a worthless
> skill for me to have (maybe
> >unless I'm an opera singer) and if I read aloud in
> Italian to Italians
> they'd
>
=== message truncated ===


=====
"When we make a choice we change the future" Deepak Chopra

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

[email protected]

I love this!

I'm sitting here thinking about my eight year old boy who figured that nine
thing out by himself. I was amazed. I had forgotten about it and was just
busily trying to teach "multiplication tables."

In fact, Johnny (my ds) led me back to unschooling in a way. This child
always has just been comfortable with numbers, in a way I never was. But,
when I started having him do worksheets and lessons in math, he froze up.
Writing down the numbers that just made sense to him in his head made
absolutely no sense to him.

He actually chuckled sometimes at the ridiculousness of the problems the math
book was asking him to do.

Boy, did it ever take me a long time to wake up.

I really loved the idea about the chessboard and grains of rice.

Caro


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/2/2002 7:21:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dcannon@... writes:

>>I know that I have significant holes in my math confidence - and
they fall in precisely those places that for some reason had not
come up in my "real life" before they were muddied up in school.<<

and

> >>so when that mess was crammed into my head,
> it found no where to live. <<

You are SO quotable. These are true GEMS.

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/2/2002 7:25:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hazy_lilly@... writes:


> I just read a book that my husband brought home called
> Math Power How to help your child love math, even if
> you Don't by Patricia Clark Kenschaft.

This is my absolute favorite math book for parents!!!!! There is nothing else
like it.

I'd like to write the same book, only for unschoolers specifically - and cut
down a little, because I think it's depth/length might be a little
intimidating to people who are already anxious about math. But you shouldn't
LET it intimidate you - you don't have to read it all at once, or all ever,
really. Just dabble in it - there is a LOT of great stuff.

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

susan marie

I mostly teach percentages by getting in discussions when we hear them.
How many times have you heard 40% off at a sale and think "what a great
deal". As my 11 yo dd said, "aren't you still giving them money? So how
are you SAVING anything?" The answer is, you're not. 40% off is still
60% on. Just remember that the little % sign has two zeros for the two
zeros in 100. Percentages are just parts of one hundred.

And when someone throws statistics at you, remember what Mark Twain
said: "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics". Always think about
the point of the statistic, and then think if it makes sense. Then look
at the numbers.

peace,
Susan

On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 09:42 PM, Nora or Devereaux Cannon wrote:

> Back to square one:  One squared is One ....
>
> I know that I have significant holes in my math confidence - and
> they fall in precisely those places that for some reason had not
> come up in my "real life" before they were muddied up in school.
> I remember, at about age 3, hearing the story of the man who
> tricked the Emperor of China - with a chess board and some rice.
> The Schtick is that the Emperor was to put one grain of rice on
> the first square of the chess board, 2 on the next, then 4, then
> 16 - squaring the number of grains for each of the 64 squares.  I
> made it all the way across the first row (counting the square
> obligingly given me by me grandfather, before I understood that
> it worked).  A couple of years later, we had an adding machine in
> the house (dating myself here).  My father casually mentioned
> that all the multiples of nine had digits that added up to a
> multiple of nine.  I probably went through a case of machine tape
> exploring that wonder.  And there were always puzzle books
> around, written at various grade levels, but full of the
> mysteries of how a theorem is proved and what you can do to
> calculate how high you threw a ball, with nothing more
> significant than a 45 degree angle made by folding the corner of
> a piece of typing paper and 2 drinking straws to view along.
>
> On the other hand, I am clueless about percentages - at home we
> just converted fractions to decimals and went on without thinking
> about 30% increase, so when that mess was crammed into my head,
> it found no where to live.  But the math that I acquired
> naturally, because it was waaaay cool - or because I needed it to
> get where I was headed stuck with me forever.  So go back to
> squaring one with math trivia and puzzle books and maybe with a
> truly math literate friend who will see the math word play
> immediately.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Burkfamily@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math (was diapers/ was
> curriculum)
>
>
> | I went to Jr. High in the era of "individualized instruction."
> Which meant,
> | in our school anyway, that we each had headphones, a cassette
> tape set and a
> | workbook.  We did SRA Math and we could listen to a tape over
> and over and
> | then take the test as many times as we wanted.  When we got a C
> or higher, we
> | moved on to the next test.
> |
> | So, I memorized what I had to for each unit and that was it.
> By the time I
> | got to college math, I was seriously phobic because I didn't
> understand
> | anything.   And all I cared about was getting a good enough
> grade to stay in
> | my major.  I took statistics and probability for my Psych
> major, and had to
> | take it twice.  Then, when I realized I was going to have to
> take Advanced
> | Stats, I was terrified.  I hired a tutor and all I told him
> was...I don't
> | care about theory or why this stuff is done.  All I want to do
> is get a B or
> | a C and be done with this.  And that was the last formal math
> experience I
> | ever had.
> |
> | Until teaching my children.  And doing with them the same thing
> I'd had
> | "done" to me, because I wasn't sure any other way to go about
> it.
> |
> | I'm still not sure how to get to that "informal" place where I
> can explore
> | the fascination of math with my kids, because I don't even know
> where that
> | place is.  I had to laugh when I read Pam's little quiz and the
> notes
> | underneath about the person who just skimmed through the
> problems and tried
> | to ignore them.  That's me to a tee.
> |
> | So, I feel in between a rock and a hard place with this
> subject.  I
> | understand the drawbacks you and others have pointed out about
> "teaching
> | math."  But, I know it's not good to ignore the subject either
> and I'm afraid
> | that's what I'll do.  How do we make it fun again...start at
> square one?  And
> | where exactly is that?
> |
> | Math Phobic to the max...
> |
> | Caro
> |
> |
> | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> |
> |
> | ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
> Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> | Buy Stock for $4
> | and no minimums.
> | FREE Money 2002.
> | http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/0xXolB/TM
> | ---------------------------------------------------------------
> ------~->
> |
> | ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject
> line! ~~~
> |
> | To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> | [email protected]
> |
> | Visit the Unschooling website:
> | http://www.unschooling.com
> |
> |
> |
> | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> |
> |
> |
>
>

>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Peace,
Susan

There is nothing so secular that it cannot be sacred, and that is one of
the deepest messages of the Incarnation. -- Madeleine L'Engle





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hazy_lilly

Pam,

Do you know of a book , Beyond math and flashcards?

I this one anyone good? I am tempted but I am not
sure if I am going to be lucky with it.

Thanks Hazel

--- PSoroosh@... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/2/2002 7:25:53 PM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> hazy_lilly@... writes:
>
>
> > I just read a book that my husband brought home
> called
> > Math Power How to help your child love math, even
> if
> > you Don't by Patricia Clark Kenschaft.
>
> This is my absolute favorite math book for
> parents!!!!! There is nothing else
> like it.
>
> I'd like to write the same book, only for
> unschoolers specifically - and cut
> down a little, because I think it's depth/length
> might be a little
> intimidating to people who are already anxious about
> math. But you shouldn't
> LET it intimidate you - you don't have to read it
> all at once, or all ever,
> really. Just dabble in it - there is a LOT of great
> stuff.
>
> --pamS
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
"When we make a choice we change the future" Deepak Chopra

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com