Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Learning consideration (was Other people's posting s...
[email protected]
My goodnesss.
I feel inarticulate here.
I meant that I didn't think it was inappropriate for the poster to point out
when he or she felt misunderstood after someone commented on their post.
I did not mean that we should all pick on individul posters and point out
what about that post we didn't like. In fact, that's the exact opposite of
what I meant. I was trying to say that it should be okay for a poster to
say...Wait a minute, I don't like the comment you made about my post...I
didn't mean it that way. Or that it should be okay for the poster simply to
point our their own sensitivities.
I guess I'm trying to be general, when I should be more specific.
That's clear as mud, I'm sure.
Caro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I feel inarticulate here.
I meant that I didn't think it was inappropriate for the poster to point out
when he or she felt misunderstood after someone commented on their post.
I did not mean that we should all pick on individul posters and point out
what about that post we didn't like. In fact, that's the exact opposite of
what I meant. I was trying to say that it should be okay for a poster to
say...Wait a minute, I don't like the comment you made about my post...I
didn't mean it that way. Or that it should be okay for the poster simply to
point our their own sensitivities.
I guess I'm trying to be general, when I should be more specific.
That's clear as mud, I'm sure.
Caro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/2002 12:40:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
PSoroosh@... writes:
ourselves here on this list as well.
I think there are definitely ways of saying things that are more sensitive
and more considerate, without taking away from honesty and forthrightness.
For example, sometimes just the way something is stated in black and white
can help. Sometimes when people take time just to word things differently,
it helps.
Diplomacy is something I've always strived for and hope my children see.
It's different than being weak and not being able to take a stand.
I'm glad you brought this up because I've been so frustrated with my
inability to articulate that this is what I meant in the first place...that I
don't think it's wrong to remind any people, all people, people on this list
and otherwise, that we can still address grievances or issues with diplomacy.
It's hard in this format, because if we were conversing and I had written
something about the diaper training analogy and somebody said something
different than what I meant, I could just say...Oh, I didn't mean it that
way. Here is what I meant.
In this online format, I sometimes go days between reading and posting what
other people have written and it's hard to explain sometimes what I really
mean. I'm new at it too.
Anyway, that's enough. I'm sorry I kind of got away from what I think you
want to do here by addressing how we work this issue with our kids. Still
just a bit frustrated. I don't think I'm really saying anything that's so
far from what anybody thinks. I just can't seem to spit it out.
Caro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PSoroosh@... writes:
> <<HOW do we help our kids develop into people who are courteous andI think this is precisely where I wanted to go with this-only directed at
> considerate
> enough to be good company and yet honest and forthright too?>>
ourselves here on this list as well.
I think there are definitely ways of saying things that are more sensitive
and more considerate, without taking away from honesty and forthrightness.
For example, sometimes just the way something is stated in black and white
can help. Sometimes when people take time just to word things differently,
it helps.
Diplomacy is something I've always strived for and hope my children see.
It's different than being weak and not being able to take a stand.
I'm glad you brought this up because I've been so frustrated with my
inability to articulate that this is what I meant in the first place...that I
don't think it's wrong to remind any people, all people, people on this list
and otherwise, that we can still address grievances or issues with diplomacy.
It's hard in this format, because if we were conversing and I had written
something about the diaper training analogy and somebody said something
different than what I meant, I could just say...Oh, I didn't mean it that
way. Here is what I meant.
In this online format, I sometimes go days between reading and posting what
other people have written and it's hard to explain sometimes what I really
mean. I'm new at it too.
Anyway, that's enough. I'm sorry I kind of got away from what I think you
want to do here by addressing how we work this issue with our kids. Still
just a bit frustrated. I don't think I'm really saying anything that's so
far from what anybody thinks. I just can't seem to spit it out.
Caro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/2002 7:50:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Burkfamily@... writes:
people, on the list. It always does.
And that is based on "induction" - meaning I'm basing it only on past
experience, a lot of it, and not on any logical explanation or theory about
why it might be true. <G>
seemingly rude and undiplomatic people have made things nice and clear for me
and I've really appreciated it. There are other times that people have said
things and been accused of being rude when I thought what they said was far
from rude, it was absolutely the most brilliant coherent clearthinking
inspiring thing I'd read in a year. I don't feel competent to say: "That was
unnecessarily undiplomatic." I just don't KNOW - it may have been EXACTLY the
blunt, to-the-point statement that someone needed to hear. Even if that
someone is sensitive or gets their feathers ruffled. I KNOW for a fact that
sometimes they go away and think about it and come back for more, later,
gratefully expressing appreciation for the directness they had previously
confused with rudeness.
post - that those who are less diplomatic will still be less diplomatic - and
if you also knew (2) that comments on how other listmembers post - even
gentle general reminders to be more diplomatic - would frequently lead to
long and acrimonious sidetracks away from the subject of the list, would you
still think it was a good idea?
DID exactly what you are saying here. If they feel like someone posted a rude
response to them and that they were misunderstood, it would be GREAT if they
came back with, "Oh, I didn't mean that...here's what I meant." But that
isn't the same as coming back and saying, "I didn't like your response to me.
I just want to say that you should take the time to reword your posts to be
more sensitive and considerate." See - that last is commenting on the
poster's posting style and the first was just talking about your own ideas
and clearing up what you, yourself, meant.
The first few years I was online and participating heavily in lots of
homeschooling discussions, one of the most GRATIFYING things I noticed was
that we all improved our ability to communicate in writing quite dramatically
over those first few years. It was awesome to watch it happening right before
our eyes. We unschooled ourselves into being "writers." People who really
were pretty confusing and hard to follow in the beginning, got more and more
clear and, one of the most cooooool things, they developed their own
distinctive writing styles.
We also learned that people simply need to hear things in really different
ways. I like to list things - point (1) and point (2) and so on. Some people
appreciate the organization of that kind of writing and others feel like it
is sort of cold and it turns them off. Everybody's style works better for
some people than for others.
And - by the way - some people feel attacked and picked apart when people
respond to their posts point-by-point, quoting bits and responding, like I
have done here. I just want you to know, Caro, that I'm not really intending
to do that to you - in fact, I ONLY do this when I think people have really
put an extra helping of good hard thinking into their posts and that there
are enough ideas there worth responding to point-by-point.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Burkfamily@... writes:
>But it messes up email list discussions when people point that out to OTHER
> I think this is precisely where I wanted to go with this-only directed at
> ourselves here on this list as well.
>
> I think there are definitely ways of saying things that are more sensitive
> and more considerate, without taking away from honesty and forthrightness.
>
> For example, sometimes just the way something is stated in black and white
> can help. Sometimes when people take time just to word things differently,
>
> it helps.
>
people, on the list. It always does.
And that is based on "induction" - meaning I'm basing it only on past
experience, a lot of it, and not on any logical explanation or theory about
why it might be true. <G>
> Diplomacy is something I've always strived for and hope my children see.I do too - but it isn't a clearcut line for me - there are times when
> It's different than being weak and not being able to take a stand.
>
seemingly rude and undiplomatic people have made things nice and clear for me
and I've really appreciated it. There are other times that people have said
things and been accused of being rude when I thought what they said was far
from rude, it was absolutely the most brilliant coherent clearthinking
inspiring thing I'd read in a year. I don't feel competent to say: "That was
unnecessarily undiplomatic." I just don't KNOW - it may have been EXACTLY the
blunt, to-the-point statement that someone needed to hear. Even if that
someone is sensitive or gets their feathers ruffled. I KNOW for a fact that
sometimes they go away and think about it and come back for more, later,
gratefully expressing appreciation for the directness they had previously
confused with rudeness.
> I'm glad you brought this up because I've been so frustrated with myIf you knew that (1) it wouldn't make any difference at all in how people
> inability to articulate that this is what I meant in the first place...that
> I
> don't think it's wrong to remind any people, all people, people on this
> list
> and otherwise, that we can still address grievances or issues with
> diplomacy.
>
post - that those who are less diplomatic will still be less diplomatic - and
if you also knew (2) that comments on how other listmembers post - even
gentle general reminders to be more diplomatic - would frequently lead to
long and acrimonious sidetracks away from the subject of the list, would you
still think it was a good idea?
> It's hard in this format, because if we were conversing and I had writtenI think things would go a lot more smoothly on a lot of email lists if people
> something about the diaper training analogy and somebody said something
> different than what I meant, I could just say...Oh, I didn't mean it that
> way. Here is what I meant.
>
DID exactly what you are saying here. If they feel like someone posted a rude
response to them and that they were misunderstood, it would be GREAT if they
came back with, "Oh, I didn't mean that...here's what I meant." But that
isn't the same as coming back and saying, "I didn't like your response to me.
I just want to say that you should take the time to reword your posts to be
more sensitive and considerate." See - that last is commenting on the
poster's posting style and the first was just talking about your own ideas
and clearing up what you, yourself, meant.
> In this online format, I sometimes go days between reading and posting whatYou're doing fine.
> other people have written and it's hard to explain sometimes what I really
> mean. I'm new at it too.
>
> Anyway, that's enough. I'm sorry I kind of got away from what I think you
> want to do here by addressing how we work this issue with our kids. Still
> just a bit frustrated. I don't think I'm really saying anything that's so
> far from what anybody thinks. I just can't seem to spit it out.
>
>
The first few years I was online and participating heavily in lots of
homeschooling discussions, one of the most GRATIFYING things I noticed was
that we all improved our ability to communicate in writing quite dramatically
over those first few years. It was awesome to watch it happening right before
our eyes. We unschooled ourselves into being "writers." People who really
were pretty confusing and hard to follow in the beginning, got more and more
clear and, one of the most cooooool things, they developed their own
distinctive writing styles.
We also learned that people simply need to hear things in really different
ways. I like to list things - point (1) and point (2) and so on. Some people
appreciate the organization of that kind of writing and others feel like it
is sort of cold and it turns them off. Everybody's style works better for
some people than for others.
And - by the way - some people feel attacked and picked apart when people
respond to their posts point-by-point, quoting bits and responding, like I
have done here. I just want you to know, Caro, that I'm not really intending
to do that to you - in fact, I ONLY do this when I think people have really
put an extra helping of good hard thinking into their posts and that there
are enough ideas there worth responding to point-by-point.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
And that is based on "induction" - meaning I'm basing it only on past
experience, a lot of it, and not on any logical explanation or theory about
why it might be true. <G>
Ahhh! NOW I understand what induction means! (other that a pitocin drip)
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
experience, a lot of it, and not on any logical explanation or theory about
why it might be true. <G>
Ahhh! NOW I understand what induction means! (other that a pitocin drip)
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/2/2002 3:37:33 AM Central Daylight Time,
PSoroosh@... writes:
who posts should be able to say Listen, you misunderstood me. I agree with
you that on the list it messes up the discussions. That doesn't stop me
from thinking that, theoretically, we could all try to be more diplomatic. I
agree that you're right. It doesn't necessarily help to point out to OTHER
people what we thought was not diplomatic.
ME judging other's posts to put on a label of diplomatic or not. As Joyce
pointed out, I can only control my own actions. The point of my posts has
been to try to encourage people on this list to think about these issues
while they're posting...not that we should all be quick to point out things
we didn't like after the posting has been done.
personal responsibility. That we all might think about diplomacy and tact
when we post and that once in awhile, a general discussion about those issues
is not going to, IMHO, hurt anyone. I totally agree that we will never get
anywhere, and in fact will be pulled down into the muck, if we start judging
each person's comments as to whether or not they are considering other;s
feelings.
(2) I agree that general reminders frequently lead to sidetracks and, as you
said, it's bad for the list. Again I want to emphasize that I didn't mean
that we should pick each other's posts apart for examples of diplomacy or
non-diplomacy(is that a word <G>?)
I just mean that I don't think it hurts to once in awhile have this
discussion...What is the difference between honesty and rudeness? How can we
get a point across while striving not to hurt others? These are topics I
think this list and many groups can address generally, without necessarily
pointing out what we feel were "slights" in other people's posts.
like your
time with this. It is REALLY helping to clarify my thoughts. I don't
consider it picking apart.
I'll get there, sooner or later. Where, I don't know, but somewhere!
Caro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PSoroosh@... writes:
>And really, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that the person
> <<But it messes up email list discussions when people point that out to
> OTHER
> people, on the list. It always does. >>
who posts should be able to say Listen, you misunderstood me. I agree with
you that on the list it messes up the discussions. That doesn't stop me
from thinking that, theoretically, we could all try to be more diplomatic. I
agree that you're right. It doesn't necessarily help to point out to OTHER
people what we thought was not diplomatic.
>True. Is anything really clearcut. Again, however, I wasn't talking about
>
>
>
> <<I do too - but it isn't a clearcut line for me ->>
ME judging other's posts to put on a label of diplomatic or not. As Joyce
pointed out, I can only control my own actions. The point of my posts has
been to try to encourage people on this list to think about these issues
while they're posting...not that we should all be quick to point out things
we didn't like after the posting has been done.
>(1) Yes, that's the way it will be in life. Again, I was ONLY talking about
> I wrote
> > and otherwise, that we can still address grievances or issues with
> > diplomacy.
>
> and Pam wrote:
> If you knew that (1) it wouldn't make any difference at all in how people
> post - that those who are less diplomatic will still be less diplomatic -
> and
> if you also knew (2) that comments on how other listmembers post - even
> gentle general reminders to be more diplomatic - would frequently lead to
> long and acrimonious sidetracks away from the subject of the list, would
> you
> still think it was a good idea?
personal responsibility. That we all might think about diplomacy and tact
when we post and that once in awhile, a general discussion about those issues
is not going to, IMHO, hurt anyone. I totally agree that we will never get
anywhere, and in fact will be pulled down into the muck, if we start judging
each person's comments as to whether or not they are considering other;s
feelings.
(2) I agree that general reminders frequently lead to sidetracks and, as you
said, it's bad for the list. Again I want to emphasize that I didn't mean
that we should pick each other's posts apart for examples of diplomacy or
non-diplomacy(is that a word <G>?)
I just mean that I don't think it hurts to once in awhile have this
discussion...What is the difference between honesty and rudeness? How can we
get a point across while striving not to hurt others? These are topics I
think this list and many groups can address generally, without necessarily
pointing out what we feel were "slights" in other people's posts.
>Yes-this IS what I meant. I don't think, either, that we should say "I don't
> I wrote:
> > It's hard in this format, because if we were conversing and I had written
> > something about the diaper training analogy and somebody said something
> > different than what I meant, I could just say...Oh, I didn't mean it that
> > way. Here is what I meant.
> >
> and Pam responded:
> <<I think things would go a lot more smoothly on a lot of email lists if
> people
> DID exactly what you are saying here. If they feel like someone posted a
> rude
> response to them and that they were misunderstood, it would be GREAT if
> they
> came back with, "Oh, I didn't mean that...here's what I meant." But that
> isn't the same as coming back and saying, "I didn't like your response to
> me.
> I just want to say that you should take the time to reword your posts to be
> more sensitive and considerate.>>
like your
> response to me. I'm talking about what I as POSTER can do...it's much morePam wrote:
> pro-active to do as you suggest and say...wait a minute, this is what I
> meant.
>
> <<You're doing fine... one of the most GRATIFYING things I noticed wasThanks-and this is what I'm noticing, too.
> that we all improved our ability to communicate in writing quite
> dramatically
> over those first few years. It was awesome to watch it happening right
> before
> our eyes. We unschooled ourselves into being "writers.">>
>Thanks for this, too. Actually, I'm very flattered that you're taking the
>
> <<And - by the way - some people feel attacked and picked apart when people
> respond to their posts point-by-point, quoting bits and responding, like I
> have done here. I just want you to know, Caro, that I'm not really
> intending
> to do that to you - in fact, I ONLY do this when I think people have really
> put an extra helping of good hard thinking into their posts and that there
> are enough ideas there worth responding to point-by-point.>>
time with this. It is REALLY helping to clarify my thoughts. I don't
consider it picking apart.
I'll get there, sooner or later. Where, I don't know, but somewhere!
Caro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< I totally agree that we will never get
anywhere, and in fact will be pulled down into the muck, if we start judging
each person's comments as to whether or not they are considering other;s
feelings. >>
This is a kind of fairly clean muck in itself, to take time out to discuss
discussing, instead of discussing unschooling though.
<< I just mean that I don't think it hurts to once in awhile have this
discussion...What is the difference between honesty and rudeness? >>
I think people are saying that it's different for different people, there
isn't a standard, and people draw the line different places.
Some people would prefer sweet chitchat, vaguely supportive, over any real
and potentially dangerous critique or information. Some other people think
that would be a total waste of time and wouldn't bother to belong to a list
that was basically a teaparty.
<< How can we get a point across while striving not to hurt others? >>
If you can do it, then you do it. If you think you can get a difficult point
across without hurting ANYONE's feelings, good luck.
If we say "breastfeeding is good," someone breaks down in tears and says we
shouldn't make her feel guilty because she bottle fed. Often the hurt is in
the reader, waiting to be touched, after which she says "YOU WERE
INSENSITIVE! You talked about cats when my cat died, you talked about hot
dogs when I'm a vegetarian, you said unschooling is best when you start
early, and my child is thirTEEEEEEN!!!!"
<<These are topics I
think this list and many groups can address generally, without necessarily
pointing out what we feel were "slights" in other people's posts. >>
It is frequently addressed here.
Sandra
anywhere, and in fact will be pulled down into the muck, if we start judging
each person's comments as to whether or not they are considering other;s
feelings. >>
This is a kind of fairly clean muck in itself, to take time out to discuss
discussing, instead of discussing unschooling though.
<< I just mean that I don't think it hurts to once in awhile have this
discussion...What is the difference between honesty and rudeness? >>
I think people are saying that it's different for different people, there
isn't a standard, and people draw the line different places.
Some people would prefer sweet chitchat, vaguely supportive, over any real
and potentially dangerous critique or information. Some other people think
that would be a total waste of time and wouldn't bother to belong to a list
that was basically a teaparty.
<< How can we get a point across while striving not to hurt others? >>
If you can do it, then you do it. If you think you can get a difficult point
across without hurting ANYONE's feelings, good luck.
If we say "breastfeeding is good," someone breaks down in tears and says we
shouldn't make her feel guilty because she bottle fed. Often the hurt is in
the reader, waiting to be touched, after which she says "YOU WERE
INSENSITIVE! You talked about cats when my cat died, you talked about hot
dogs when I'm a vegetarian, you said unschooling is best when you start
early, and my child is thirTEEEEEEN!!!!"
<<These are topics I
think this list and many groups can address generally, without necessarily
pointing out what we feel were "slights" in other people's posts. >>
It is frequently addressed here.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/2/2002 7:31:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Burkfamily@... writes:
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Burkfamily@... writes:
>Well know -- "Wherever you go, there you are!" ----Buckaroo Bonzai <G>
> I'll get there, sooner or later. Where, I don't know, but somewhere!
>
> Caro
>
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/2/2002 10:03:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<<> This is a kind of fairly clean muck in itself, to take time out to discuss
discussing. I've just been intrigued by the responses and it's really
started some thinking processes in myself
<<> Some people would prefer sweet chitchat, vaguely supportive, over any real
seem to have that quality.
can't strive to be diplomatic.
I wrote:
<<It is frequently addressed here.>>
Great. I'm looking forward to it.
Thanks to all and your great patience with my discussing discussing!
Caro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
<<> This is a kind of fairly clean muck in itself, to take time out to discuss
> discussing, instead of discussing unschooling though.>>Yes, you're right. And I think I, for one, have gone on too long discussing
discussing. I've just been intrigued by the responses and it's really
started some thinking processes in myself
<<> Some people would prefer sweet chitchat, vaguely supportive, over any real
> and potentially dangerous critique or information. Some other peopleI've been on lists like this. I purposely chose this list because it didn't
> think
> that would be a total waste of time and wouldn't bother to belong to a list
> that was basically a teaparty.>>
seem to have that quality.
>I know, but just because it doesn't seem possible doesn't mean I myself
>
> <<If we say "breastfeeding is good," someone breaks down in tears and says
> we
> shouldn't make her feel guilty because she bottle fed. Often the hurt is
> in
> the reader, waiting to be touched, after which she says "YOU WERE
> INSENSITIVE! You talked about cats when my cat died, you talked about hot
> dogs when I'm a vegetarian, you said unschooling is best when you start
> early, and my child is thirTEEEEEEN!!!!">>
can't strive to be diplomatic.
I wrote:
> <<These are topics Iand Sandra replied:
> think this list and many groups can address generally, without necessarily
> pointing out what we feel were "slights" in other people's posts. >>
>
<<It is frequently addressed here.>>
Great. I'm looking forward to it.
Thanks to all and your great patience with my discussing discussing!
Caro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]