tamokey

Carolyn,I did not have an unmedicated delivery and although I felt a
twinge of guilt at first, it faded quickly.� The important and only fact
that is relevant is a healthy child.� The same for the breasfeeding.�
Some things are meant to happen for a reason.� Please stop feeling
guilty or let down.� You did every thing that you could do and it was
just not meant to be.� It does not mean that you are less a mother
because you used medication.� You nutured that baby for nine months
inside your body and you did everything to insure that the baby was
delivered into this world healthy and safe.

Andi

> Just because it's from our bodies doesn't mean it always comes
> naturally and
> smoothly.� As another example, I know that unmedicated, unintervened
> birth
> is clearly best for babies, but Annie did not get one of those.� I
> regret it
> every day and think about it every day.� And we probably won't have
> another,
> so I won't get to experience the kinds of births I read about that
> other
> women have.� It hurts every time I read one, even though I'm happy for
> the
> women.� I relive the horrible beginning I gave Annie.� The one birth I
> will
> have experienced was horrible and almost tragically fatal.� I ain't no
> earth
> mother, even though I'm still nursing Annie at 25 mos.
>
> Having things we wish had gone differently is probably totally par for
> the
> course for parenting.� We do the best we can, always reflecting and
> trying
> to foresee whatever problems will arise and be as informed as we can
> and
> *still*, fate disposes.
>
> Carolyn

A. Yates

Carolyn,
I have three kids. The first was delivered with epidural, breaking of the
water ect... Then he had an infection and had to stay a week in the
hospital. Then and there I vowed the next would be different. I got my
chance 21 months later. I studied natural childbirth, practiced relaxation
ect... The delivery was wonderful and natural. I felt great (just fat).
The third I had at home, and was by far the most wonderful, though not the
easiest. I felt great afterward, the kids got to see their sister shortly
after birth (they weren't present), and we all got to sleep in our own bed.
I have regrets about the first too, but what did I know back then? By the
time the third had come around, I had learned so much, and I had experienced
two other births. Don't be hard on yourself. Move on and enjoy the
journey.
Ann

Joel Hawthorne

My wife had two kids the old hospital route 25+ years ago and then our 10 year
old was born with a midwife in hospital after we went there from home when there
was meconium in the water. We had a uneventful (almost oxymoronic) birth,
stayed for four hours, received what sadly seems to be typical abusive hospital
treatment (especially if you were trying for a home birth) and went home. Our
six year old was born at home, even though there was meconium in the water.
Fortunately the birth happened almost immediately after the water broke. In my
wife's experience the less medical involvement the easier, happier the birth. As
a nurse I continue to be almost incredulous at the treatment we received in
hospital. The power problems of some nurses are enormous. If they don't have
total control and if "patients" don't just do what they're told some nurses just
go nuts apparently. I really do wish there was a way to let people know ahead
of time about the home birth option and the non medical model for child birth.
The suffering of women under the medical model( most of whom should not be
there), is enormous.

Our then four year old was present for the birth and enjoyed it immensely. Our
grown twenties something daughter was present for both births. It was
wonderful.

"A. Yates" wrote:

> From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
>
> Carolyn,
> I have three kids. The first was delivered with epidural, breaking of the
> water ect... Then he had an infection and had to stay a week in the
> hospital. Then and there I vowed the next would be different. I got my
> chance 21 months later. I studied natural childbirth, practiced relaxation
> ect... The delivery was wonderful and natural. I felt great (just fat).
> The third I had at home, and was by far the most wonderful, though not the
> easiest. I felt great afterward, the kids got to see their sister shortly
> after birth (they weren't present), and we all got to sleep in our own bed.
> I have regrets about the first too, but what did I know back then? By the
> time the third had come around, I had learned so much, and I had experienced
> two other births. Don't be hard on yourself. Move on and enjoy the
> journey.
> Ann
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

I wish I had known about the home birthing earlier....though by our third
child I knew, but decided against it ( I just couldn't figure out how it
would work, though didn't explore it thoroughly). Our family physician's
wife home birthed most of their children. (They also homeschool, so he is
a 'true' physician for us!)
Anyway, Joel, your post reminded me of my hospital experience with my
second child.....I was there less than 24 hrs, and that seemed TOO long!!
I could hardly wait to get put of there and back to the peace of our
home...with our family together.
And since I got on this hospital treatment topic.....Our toddler was
recently hospitalized for croup. I battled all night with the resident who
wanted to run a whole myriad of ridiculous tests to rule out every rare and
unlikely disease in existence!! And he denied my simple request to have a
humidifier to help her breathe.<<<<GRRRR!!!>>>>
I literally had to fight off the phlebotomist (I can't remember why they
wanted to collect blood...); I had to refuse the test repeatedly and
finally, pulled my daughter out of her hands. The nurse also became my
enemy rather than my daughter's advocate......She claimed to me that she'd
try to convey my wishes to the resident, yet she advocated for him....and
snuck the phlebotomist back in the room at 5:30 a.m. when I had fallen
asleep. I saw her note that said I agreed to have the test in the early
a.m. -- which I did not. I was able to confront her before she left her
shift that morning. PHEW! It's exhausting in the retelling, too!!
Well, thanks for listening everyone.....sorry to be such a lurker
around here...I have so many opinions I'd like to contribute to these lively
discussions Alas, I have committed myself to a personal fitness program,
so my mornings are currently devoted to brisk 45 minute walks .... I'm
barely able to read my e-mail, much less resapond!! ;-)
Good night all....
Susan

>My wife had two kids the old hospital route 25+ years ago and then our 10
year
>old was born with a midwife in hospital after we went there from home when
there
>was meconium in the water. We had a uneventful (almost oxymoronic) birth,
>stayed for four hours, received what sadly seems to be typical abusive
hospital
>treatment (especially if you were trying for a home birth) and went home.
Our
>six year old was born at home, even though there was meconium in the water.
>Fortunately the birth happened almost immediately after the water broke.
In my
>wife's experience the less medical involvement the easier, happier the
birth. As
>a nurse I continue to be almost incredulous at the treatment we received in
>hospital. The power problems of some nurses are enormous. If they don't
have
>total control and if "patients" don't just do what they're told some nurses
just
>go nuts apparently. I really do wish there was a way to let people know
ahead
>of time about the home birth option and the non medical model for child
birth.
>The suffering of women under the medical model( most of whom should not be
>there), is enormous.
>
>Our then four year old was present for the birth and enjoyed it immensely.
Our
>grown twenties something daughter was present for both births. It was
>wonderful.
>

[email protected])

For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
hours, How?
I was absolutely miserable and wanted to come home so that maybe I could
get some sleep. The hospital would not release my son until he had some
kind of test , at 24 hours. Needless to say, when he was 24 hours old,
I called the nurses station to come get him for his test, and we were
released an hour and a half later. If I ever have another child , I'd
love to stay home, but how do you get around all the tests and
vaccinations that are required by the state?
Susan

[email protected]

In a message dated 99-10-09 08:08:55 EDT, you write:

<< another child , I'd
love to stay home, but how do you get around all the tests and
vaccinations that are required by the state?
Susan
>>
In my experience, vaccinations are a requirement of hospitals and government
schools, not actually a legal requirement, although they would like us to
believe so. I have opted to vaccinate my kids nut it definately isnt
required by law here.

Rachael

Lisa Bugg

The state has suggestions.. it is not law that you accept medical services,
you have the power to decline. With my first the doctor said, "I cannot
sign you out, but you can sign yourself out". And so we did. ;)

Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Ellis <susanspets@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 7:08 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] re: delivery


> From: susanspets@... (Susan Ellis)
>
> For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
> hours, How?
> I was absolutely miserable and wanted to come home so that maybe I could
> get some sleep. The hospital would not release my son until he had some
> kind of test , at 24 hours. Needless to say, when he was 24 hours old,
> I called the nurses station to come get him for his test, and we were
> released an hour and a half later. If I ever have another child , I'd
> love to stay home, but how do you get around all the tests and
> vaccinations that are required by the state?
> Susan
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/99 7:08:50 AM, susanspets@... writes:

<< how do you get around all the tests and
vaccinations that are required by the state? >>

remember the baby is your own! mostly everything can be refused if you
choose. research the "required" items and decide what you want. if there is
a bradley method childbirth instructor around, they are usually an excellent
source for finding out options in your area. coming home was wonderful for
us!
erin

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/99 4:08:53 AM PST, susanspets@... writes:

<<
For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
hours, How?
I was absolutely miserable and wanted to come home so that maybe I could
get some sleep. The hospital would not release my son until he had some
kind of test , at 24 hours. Needless to say, when he was 24 hours old,
I called the nurses station to come get him for his test, and we were
released an hour and a half later. If I ever have another child , I'd
love to stay home, but how do you get around all the tests and
vaccinations that are required by the state?
Susan
>>

The state can NOT compel you to test your child. ALL vaccinations are
optional - but they DO put the pressure on. The "24 hour" test is the PKU
(probably) it is routinely done in a hospital, but it is NOT effective in
determining if your child has a PKU problem. (blood disorder) until the baby
is about 2 weeks old. The hospital is "required" to test for PKU, and they
do it routinely before sending baby home just in case the parents do not come
back for their 2 week check up.

You are the parent, you can ALWAYS refuse whatever tests you do not want the
child to have. ALWAYS. Unfortunately, the medical establishment in general
usually puts so much pressure on parents, and they state "hospital policy"
etc. so that parents don't make waves. If you ever have a doctor or nurse
INSIST upon tests as "legally we must" - please tell them that they will need
to speak to your attorney about those tests, and that you will be taking your
baby home now.

Of course, if you feel comfortable with all the "musts", then disregard the
above. <g>

Mary

Joel Hawthorne

I am tempted to say tell them to (expletive deleted) but just to reinforce Mary's
observations in most circumstances simply, firmly saying no will do. There are
extreme circumstances where hospitals will get court orders etc. but these are
rare. They wanted to do PKU on our baby we said no we'd do it at home with the
midwife. They wanted to do antibiotic eye drops and we refused. We were abused
for our refusal but that is par for the course and (more expletives deleted
......these go on for some time #$%@^!!!!) to them about that.

Releasing one's self from the tyranny of experts takes work, time and support.
It is one of those "essences" of unschooling IMO.

LammiesX6@... wrote:

> From: LammiesX6@...
>
> In a message dated 10/9/99 4:08:53 AM PST, susanspets@... writes:
>
> <<
> For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
> hours, How?
> I was absolutely miserable and wanted to come home so that maybe I could
> get some sleep. The hospital would not release my son until he had some
> kind of test , at 24 hours. Needless to say, when he was 24 hours old,
> I called the nurses station to come get him for his test, and we were
> released an hour and a half later. If I ever have another child , I'd
> love to stay home, but how do you get around all the tests and
> vaccinations that are required by the state?
> Susan
> >>
>
> The state can NOT compel you to test your child. ALL vaccinations are
> optional - but they DO put the pressure on. The "24 hour" test is the PKU
> (probably) it is routinely done in a hospital, but it is NOT effective in
> determining if your child has a PKU problem. (blood disorder) until the baby
> is about 2 weeks old. The hospital is "required" to test for PKU, and they
> do it routinely before sending baby home just in case the parents do not come
> back for their 2 week check up.
>
> You are the parent, you can ALWAYS refuse whatever tests you do not want the
> child to have. ALWAYS. Unfortunately, the medical establishment in general
> usually puts so much pressure on parents, and they state "hospital policy"
> etc. so that parents don't make waves. If you ever have a doctor or nurse
> INSIST upon tests as "legally we must" - please tell them that they will need
> to speak to your attorney about those tests, and that you will be taking your
> baby home now.
>
> Of course, if you feel comfortable with all the "musts", then disregard the
> above. <g>
>
> Mary
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

faith buckley

I must be the only one on this list who feels this way, which wouldn't be a
first, but I was happy to stay in the hospital for the first 24 hours, but NO
more. Those beds tend to make your body hurt after a while!! Like it doesn't
hurt already!

I liked being waited on hand and foot! :-) I had a great group of nurses who
were totally concerned with what I wanted. With my first I was 19 and clueless
so I needed to stay to receive the help and advice. With my 2nd I was happy to
get home and get on with caring for the baby my way and feel comfortable. And I
only had a 5 yr old around, who was excited to see his sister. But when I had
the last one, I had a 7 yr old, my step-daughter (5) and my 2 year old, who was
too excited to maul her baby sister! The older ones weren't a problem but
Cheyenne was extremely attached to me and having a baby to compete with made her
a little anxious!

Also, with all of my births I'm glad I chose the hospital. I had complications
with all. With the first two, their heart rates were dropping severly and I was
only given 15 minutes to push or they were going to go C. I also was given
oxygen with both, was given demoral (sp?) with my first (what a waste, didn't
help a bit!) and had to lay down to deliver my 2nd, what a pain!!! Totally
screwed up my back! It turned out that she had the cord around her neck twice.
But with my 3rd, I believe bc of tons of prayer beforehand, I was able to sit up
in a rocking chair and rock through the contractions, which were extremely
painful, due to too much petocin (sp?). (My contractions weren't strong enough,
and I was 2 weeks late.) I also was able to get on my knees facing the back of
the bed to push. What a blessing! Especially bc she was sooooo big
(9lbs10-1/2oz)! But she came out blue and not breathing. My mother-in-law
totally lost it! She started breathing and surprise, surprise, after thinking
for 9 months we were having a boy, she turned out to be a girl!!! And a very
healthy one at that.

Well, that's my experience with childbirth, hospitals and medication.

Living for Him,
Faith

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/99 5:08:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
susanspets@... writes:

<< For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
hours, How? >>

Before the last one (homebirth) the previous two I didn't use an obstetrician
I went with our General Practitioner. I had the 3rd child and said okay I
want to go home. He asked that I stay at least 4 hours so he could check
blood pressure etc.

On the 4th one my GP was on vacation. They only available remotely similar
doctor was a young intern... I had her, said I wanted to go home do the
paperwork, he oh no you have to stay at least 24 hours. I told him no
thanks, do the paperwork or I'd ignore it and go home anyway. They called my
GP on vacation <g>, his response was send her home.

Midwives are VERY good about explaining tests and telling you that there are
options. My 4 month old hasn't had any immunizations, and won't until at
least age two. I don't know that I'd recommend a midwife with a first birth,
but I'd sure mention it, most first time mothers are a bit to scared to walk
away from the *professionals*.

But, I'm 43, I've had a lot of practice with the medical professionals and
kids. I don't do specialist unless absolutely necessary.

Charlotte

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

It's true you as a parent have the *right* to refuse treatment.....however,
as I stated in my earlier post, it's often quite a challenge to have this
right respected. My dd was forced to have a test which I adamantly and
repeatedly refused. I finally begged them to at least wait until I could
confer with my family physician OR the head of the peds dept, who would
come in the a.m. The nurse basically waited until I snoozed off for about a
half hour, then brought the lab person in to do the test. they started
this test and refused to stop when I awoke and requested it. turns out the
nurse wrote a note to the lab saying I agreed to do it at that time (around
5 a.m., when we were not even settled in the room until after 1 a.m.).
I only managed to get her out of one unnecessary test.....that's because
I had a chance to talk with the head of Peds when he did his daily review.
he agreed with me to cancel the other ordered test. here again, a lab
person came in expecting to do the test and we had to call the head of peds
to 'confirm' that my refusal was 'ok'!!?! later, a lab person returned to
try and do one test over (the 5 a.m. one) becuse it hadn't
'taken'.........GRRRRRRR!!!!!
Joel, I appreciate your 'inside' perspective. I have had a bit of a
look at the inside when I worked for a hospice a few yrs ago (social work).
At any rate, I was all to aware of the sad state of hospital medical
practice.....not a good place for a sick person!!!
Susan
who is grateful to have a place to be heard on this....looks like i'm
building a soapbox to stand on; I'll try to control myself ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: LammiesX6@... <LammiesX6@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, October 09, 1999 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re: delivery


>From: LammiesX6@...
>
>In a message dated 10/9/99 4:08:53 AM PST, susanspets@... writes:
>
><<
> For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
> hours, How?
> I was absolutely miserable and wanted to come home so that maybe I could
> get some sleep. The hospital would not release my son until he had some
> kind of test , at 24 hours. Needless to say, when he was 24 hours old,
> I called the nurses station to come get him for his test, and we were
> released an hour and a half later. If I ever have another child , I'd
> love to stay home, but how do you get around all the tests and
> vaccinations that are required by the state?
> Susan
> >>
>
>The state can NOT compel you to test your child. ALL vaccinations are
>optional - but they DO put the pressure on. The "24 hour" test is the PKU
>(probably) it is routinely done in a hospital, but it is NOT effective in
>determining if your child has a PKU problem. (blood disorder) until the
baby
>is about 2 weeks old. The hospital is "required" to test for PKU, and they
>do it routinely before sending baby home just in case the parents do not
come
>back for their 2 week check up.
>
>You are the parent, you can ALWAYS refuse whatever tests you do not want
the
>child to have. ALWAYS. Unfortunately, the medical establishment in
general
>usually puts so much pressure on parents, and they state "hospital policy"
>etc. so that parents don't make waves. If you ever have a doctor or nurse
>INSIST upon tests as "legally we must" - please tell them that they will
need
>to speak to your attorney about those tests, and that you will be taking
your
>baby home now.
>
>Of course, if you feel comfortable with all the "musts", then disregard the
>above. <g>
>
>Mary
>
>>Check it out!
>http://www.unschooling.com
>

[email protected]

<< In a message dated 10/9/99 7:08:50 AM, susanspets@... writes:

<< how do you get around all the tests and
vaccinations that are required by the state? >>
>>

Your pediatrician should give you all of this info and should answer any
questions you have. There are no dumb questions! That's what they are there
for.

Nance

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> Speaking of vaccinations: I would avoid Hep B vaccinations for children. I
> believe it is a pharmaceutical driven campaign which has the interests of the
> bottom line far ahead any possible public health benefits. I am not keen on most
>
Would you make this recommendation for all ages of children, Joel, or
just for young children?
My daughter (age 19) never received the Hep B vaccine because they weren't
giving it yet. Now my son (13) is in the age group that they're
pushing the vaccine for to "catch up." I'm always leary of new
vaccines and so we haven't gotten this one yet. Actually, according
to his records, he has had it, but I know he hasn't. I think when
I transferred his medical records here, they marked the HiB shot in
the Hep B spot. That's scary in and of itself.

Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...

Lisa Bugg

>
> Releasing one's self from the tyranny of experts takes work, time and
support.
> It is one of those "essences" of unschooling IMO.

It's why we are here, but how do we get to the offline community, who may
very well be isolated in regards to homeschooling methods? It seems I talk
and awful lot, but not very many people *get it*.

Lisa
>
> LammiesX6@... wrote:
>
> > From: LammiesX6@...
> >
> > In a message dated 10/9/99 4:08:53 AM PST, susanspets@... writes:
> >
> > <<
> > For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
> > hours, How?
> > I was absolutely miserable and wanted to come home so that maybe I
could
> > get some sleep. The hospital would not release my son until he had
some
> > kind of test , at 24 hours. Needless to say, when he was 24 hours old,
> > I called the nurses station to come get him for his test, and we were
> > released an hour and a half later. If I ever have another child , I'd
> > love to stay home, but how do you get around all the tests and
> > vaccinations that are required by the state?
> > Susan
> > >>
> >
> > The state can NOT compel you to test your child. ALL vaccinations are
> > optional - but they DO put the pressure on. The "24 hour" test is the
PKU
> > (probably) it is routinely done in a hospital, but it is NOT effective
in
> > determining if your child has a PKU problem. (blood disorder) until the
baby
> > is about 2 weeks old. The hospital is "required" to test for PKU, and
they
> > do it routinely before sending baby home just in case the parents do not
come
> > back for their 2 week check up.
> >
> > You are the parent, you can ALWAYS refuse whatever tests you do not want
the
> > child to have. ALWAYS. Unfortunately, the medical establishment in
general
> > usually puts so much pressure on parents, and they state "hospital
policy"
> > etc. so that parents don't make waves. If you ever have a doctor or
nurse
> > INSIST upon tests as "legally we must" - please tell them that they will
need
> > to speak to your attorney about those tests, and that you will be taking
your
> > baby home now.
> >
> > Of course, if you feel comfortable with all the "musts", then disregard
the
> > above. <g>
> >
> > Mary
> >
> > > Check it out!
> > http://www.unschooling.com
>
> --
> best wishes
> Joel
>
> All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
> Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
>
> Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which
conserve,
> restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative
> justice.
> We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
> http://www.cerj.org
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Joel Hawthorne

IMO have a midwife even if you have a planned hospital birth. They make an
enormous difference in any context.

Rhiahl@... wrote:

> From: Rhiahl@...
>
> In a message dated 10/9/99 5:08:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> susanspets@... writes:
>
> << For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
> hours, How? >>
>
> Before the last one (homebirth) the previous two I didn't use an obstetrician
> I went with our General Practitioner. I had the 3rd child and said okay I
> want to go home. He asked that I stay at least 4 hours so he could check
> blood pressure etc.
>
> On the 4th one my GP was on vacation. They only available remotely similar
> doctor was a young intern... I had her, said I wanted to go home do the
> paperwork, he oh no you have to stay at least 24 hours. I told him no
> thanks, do the paperwork or I'd ignore it and go home anyway. They called my
> GP on vacation <g>, his response was send her home.
>
> Midwives are VERY good about explaining tests and telling you that there are
> options. My 4 month old hasn't had any immunizations, and won't until at
> least age two. I don't know that I'd recommend a midwife with a first birth,
> but I'd sure mention it, most first time mothers are a bit to scared to walk
> away from the *professionals*.
>
> But, I'm 43, I've had a lot of practice with the medical professionals and
> kids. I don't do specialist unless absolutely necessary.
>
> Charlotte

> best wishes

Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

Joel Hawthorne

Great question. Answer it and change the world. I just keep slogging away,
talking away, hoping away and hope for the sea change for which we yearn. Keep
on keeping on.

Lisa Bugg wrote:

> From: "Lisa Bugg" <LisaBugg@...>
>
> >
> > Releasing one's self from the tyranny of experts takes work, time and
> support.
> > It is one of those "essences" of unschooling IMO.
>
> It's why we are here, but how do we get to the offline community, who may
> very well be isolated in regards to homeschooling methods? It seems I talk
> and awful lot, but not very many people *get it*.
>
> Lisa
> >

best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

Joel Hawthorne

Speaking of vaccinations: I would avoid Hep B vaccinations for children. I
believe it is a pharmaceutical driven campaign which has the interests of the
bottom line far ahead any possible public health benefits. I am not keen on most
vaccines. There is apparently growing concern about a possible connection
between vaccination and autism. Of course the medical establishment says there
is no connection though there are some doctors who believe there is.

Avoid fads eh?

Roop0625@... wrote:

> From: Roop0625@...
>
> In a message dated 99-10-09 08:08:55 EDT, you write:
>
> << another child , I'd
> love to stay home, but how do you get around all the tests and
> vaccinations that are required by the state?
> Susan
> >>
> In my experience, vaccinations are a requirement of hospitals and government
> schools, not actually a legal requirement, although they would like us to
> believe so. I have opted to vaccinate my kids nut it definately isnt
> required by law here.
>
> Rachael

best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

[email protected]

sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees....

<<I'm glad I chose the hospital....>> THEN... <<I was only given 15 minutes
to push or they were going to go C... was given demoral with my first (what a
waste, didn't
help a bit!)... had to lay down to deliver my 2nd, what a pain!!!... too much
pitocin...>>
(emphasis mine)

every one's birth experience is valid and you can choose to take from it what
you want. you were perhaps in true emergency situations and the hospital
might have saved lives! yet, many times one intervention leads to another
which can put women in more and more vulnerable situations! birth is a
normal happening and in most cases there would be no complications if let be.
yet from hospital births how often do we hear about this or that going
wrong? they become minor things when compared to losing a life, which is the
fear. and so, parents are left feeling indebted to the hospital when it at
times was more a part of the cause...

not so much your personal situation (which i do not judge) but it reminded me
that many times over i've heard similar stories and am reflecting that it
could be better out there.... more advocacy from within for the normalness of
birth, etc...

erin

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/99 9:40:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jagwirtz@...
writes:

<< My daughter (age 19) never received the Hep B vaccine because they
weren't
giving it yet. Now my son (13) is in the age group that they're
pushing the vaccine for to "catch up." >>

It's required for health care workers. My daughter is working in a lab at
Swedish Medical and she HAD to have it as a condition of employment. It's
probably necessary for her though due to possible blood contamination.

France has dropped the mandatory requirement for this vaccine. Also,
Australia put out an interesting report a few weeks ago stating that they
believe that they could reduce the crib death rates by 50% if infant
vaccinations were stopped.

Try www.909shot.com for more info.....

"Independent analysis of raw computer data generated by the
government-operated Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) confirms
that in 1996, there were 872 serious adverse events reported to VAERS in
children under 14 years of age who had been injected with hepatitis B
vaccine. The children were either taken to a hospital emergency room, had
life threatening health problems, were hospitalized or were left disabled
following vaccination. 214 of the children had received hepatitis B vaccine
alone and the rest had received hepatitis B vaccine in combination with other
vaccines. 48 children were reported to have died after they were injected
with hepatitis B vaccine in 1996 and 13 of them had received hepatitis B
vaccine only before their deaths. By contrast, in 1996 only 279 cases of
hepatitis B disease were reported in children under age 14. "

The rest of the article is there to read.

Charlotte

Joel Hawthorne

I would recommend that no one unless they are in a high risk category e.g.. injection
drug user, health care worker, and such like take the hep. B vaccine. Why. I would
certainly strongly advise against children taking it. I think great caution with all
of the vaccines is justified. If I were traveling to high risk areas I might
consider some vaccinations but beyond that I am very cautious. I am vaccinated for
Hep B because I am a nurse who has often worked with patients who use injection drugs
and have other risk factors.

This is non-expert advice just a my opinion.

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz wrote:

> From: "Jeff & Diane Gwirtz" <jagwirtz@...>
>
> > Speaking of vaccinations: I would avoid Hep B vaccinations for children. I
> > believe it is a pharmaceutical driven campaign which has the interests of the
> > bottom line far ahead any possible public health benefits. I am not keen on most
> >
> Would you make this recommendation for all ages of children, Joel, or
> just for young children?
> My daughter (age 19) never received the Hep B vaccine because they weren't
> giving it yet. Now my son (13) is in the age group that they're
> pushing the vaccine for to "catch up." I'm always leary of new
> vaccines and so we haven't gotten this one yet. Actually, according
> to his records, he has had it, but I know he hasn't. I think when
> I transferred his medical records here, they marked the HiB shot in
> the Hep B spot. That's scary in and of itself.
>
> Diane from KS
> jagwirtz@...
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve, restore
and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

Joel Hawthorne

In spades! the number of interventions which result in more interventions is
enormous. Situations which have formerly been handled successfully (e.g. a wide
variety of breech presentations) are now medical emergencies in part because the
skills which formerly were learned to deal with them have been abandoned. A
c-section for breech presentations is the current solution when skillful turning
of the baby was formerly done by skilled practitioners. Induction is now done
for a variety of feeble reasons as often as it is done for genuine life
threatening emergencies.

It is also impossible to know in any given situation how the birth would have
turned out if nature had been encouraged instead of thwarted. People tally up
the failed home births while ignoring the rotten outcomes of hospital birth. The
significance of the initial connection between mother and babe is played down.
Fortunately hospital nurseries are becoming the relics they ought to be. Even
preemies do better when they are handled and kept in close contact with a real
person.

The same forces which prevent us or at least dissuade us from looking
realistically at our parents come in to effect when looking at what we do to our
children.

I believe in any given individual instant people are doing the best they can but
it behooves us to look at the larger picture if we really want to change things
for the better. There is a rational role for medicine in birthing but it is very
small.

The vested interests of various groups e.g. hospitals, doctors, pharmaceutical
companies, insurance companies et. al. have to be examined to understand what is
really going on.

I have really gotten terribly chatty of late. I think unsubscribing from other
lists has just focused my talk-talk here. Seems to be what everybody's got....

MORELFAM@... wrote:

> From: MORELFAM@...
>
> sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees....
>
> <<I'm glad I chose the hospital....>> THEN... <<I was only given 15 minutes
> to push or they were going to go C... was given demoral with my first (what a
> waste, didn't
> help a bit!)... had to lay down to deliver my 2nd, what a pain!!!... too much
> pitocin...>>
> (emphasis mine)
>
> every one's birth experience is valid and you can choose to take from it what
> you want. you were perhaps in true emergency situations and the hospital
> might have saved lives! yet, many times one intervention leads to another
> which can put women in more and more vulnerable situations! birth is a
> normal happening and in most cases there would be no complications if let be.
> yet from hospital births how often do we hear about this or that going
> wrong? they become minor things when compared to losing a life, which is the
> fear. and so, parents are left feeling indebted to the hospital when it at
> times was more a part of the cause...
>
> not so much your personal situation (which i do not judge) but it reminded me
> that many times over i've heard similar stories and am reflecting that it
> could be better out there.... more advocacy from within for the normalness of
> birth, etc...
>
> erin
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> Try www.909shot.com for more info.....
>
Thanks for the info, Charlotte!


Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...

Carolyn Talarr

Joel wrote:

>Releasing one's self from the tyranny of experts takes work, time and
support.
>It is one of those "essences" of unschooling IMO.
>
I totally agree. And BTW, I didn't mean to hijack the thread because of a
small example I gave in reference to things we wish had gone differently,
but this is a great discussion that's taken off from it! (Thank you to the
people who wrote kind supportive replies. I really didn't mean to whine,
just to offer an example. When I really want to whine, you'll know it! :))

This kind of topic gets me so excited because it gets into critical
discourse analysis, a favorite pastime of mine (I didn't make up the term;
it's British and a kind of hybrid of sociolinguistics, dramaturgy, and
ethnography...) There's some Foucault in this too, of course, at base.

CDA is about picking apart the relationship between the investments and
powerplays that drive and weight dialogue in almost any situation, line by
line, pause by pause, and gesture by gesture. Dealing with doctors is a
prime situation for fun with CDA, because they know that they have *quasi*
legal power (and my mother was a doctor, I have lots of doctors in my
family, *but still*, or maybe *and so*!), and even more, they deal with
people at the *most* vulnerable moments of life.

Any interaction with anyone claiming to be a medical professional thus
starts off totally and almost laughably slanted in their direction; even if
they were to say something like "We must bleed you", the average person
would lie back and accept the correctness and inevitability of being bled.
Not that all medical advice is this wrong, of course. Just by way of
example of the weight of the authority that doctors wield. And not only the
words doctors say, but the lack of listening to patients, interruption
(someone else mentioned this stuff too), body language, etc.

Police, too--basically any member of any official institution. Like the
state schooling apparatus.

Ah, don't get me started. But I just thought I'd mention that the name of
the person who came up with critical discourse analysis is Norman
Fairclough, in case anyone wants to read some really entertaining, if
somewhat academic, detailed picking apart of the dynamics of language and
power...

Best,
Carolyn

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> My older son was born with miconium aspiration and had to go into the NICU.
> For me, I wanted to stay IN the hospital,and thus closer to him, for as
> long as possible. As it was I still had to leave empty handed. One of the
> hardest things I have ever had to do was to leave the hospital with an
>
I know how you feel Nanci. I too had to leave the hospital
empty-handed with my second. He was born with Group B strep and had
to stay for 10 days. We were treated very well by the Drs and nurses
during the time that we had to come and go from the hospital and I
will be forever grateful to them. I've heard of so many bad
experiences and have even experienced some of them myself, but in
this instance, I have nothing but praise. I also know that I would
never on my own have picked up the early symptoms of Group B that the
nurses did and so, while I love and fully support the idea of
homebirth, I'm pleased that this particular child was born in the
hospital. Now, they have screening for Group B strep - finally - so
it doesn't have to be a problem.

Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>For those of you who were released from the hospital inless than 24
>hours, How?
>I was absolutely miserable and wanted to come home so that maybe I could
>get some sleep. The hospital would not release my son until he had some
>kind of test , at 24 hours.

My older son was born with miconium aspiration and had to go into the NICU.
For me, I wanted to stay IN the hospital,and thus closer to him, for as
long as possible. As it was I still had to leave empty handed. One of the
hardest things I have ever had to do was to leave the hospital with an
empty infant seat in the car and arrive home without my first new baby.
Luckily he was able to come home the next day. But I think I was fortunate
in that I had a good doctor, nurses who listened to my wishes and a
comfortable private room next to the NICU.

Nanci K. in Idaho

[email protected]

>>it is not law that you accept medical services, you have the power to
decline. >>

For my second birth, a VBAC in a hospital with a midwife, I signed a
statement that I accepted all risk from my choice to not have a heparin
lock in place. At the time it was the procedure for VBAC's due to the
"high risk" of my uterus rupturing! I did research and found that there
are other options for emergency IV's. (I also knew that the risk of
rupture was extremely low).
Mary Ellen
If you want to do everything yourself,
insist on being the only one who can do it right.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

[email protected]

I must agree. I believe my cesarean birth was unnecessary, and I regret
that I had so poorly educated myself about birth the first time. Yes, I
am thankful to have a healthy child, but often feel that something was
taken from me, and from my child. Having an unmedicated VBAC is one of
the best experiences of my life!
Mary Ellen

If you want to do everything yourself,
insist on being the only one who can do it right.

>>>>sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees....

<<I'm glad I chose the hospital....>> THEN... <<I was only given 15
minutes
to push or they were going to go C... was given demoral with my first
(what a
waste, didn't
help a bit!)... had to lay down to deliver my 2nd, what a pain!!!... too
much
pitocin...>>
(emphasis mine)

every one's birth experience is valid and you can choose to take from it
what
you want. you were perhaps in true emergency situations and the hospital

might have saved lives! yet, many times one intervention leads to
another
which can put women in more and more vulnerable situations! birth is a
normal happening and in most cases there would be no complications if let
be.
yet from hospital births how often do we hear about this or that going
wrong? they become minor things when compared to losing a life, which is
the
fear. and so, parents are left feeling indebted to the hospital when it
at
times was more a part of the cause...

not so much your personal situation (which i do not judge) but it
reminded me
that many times over i've heard similar stories and am reflecting that it

could be better out there.... more advocacy from within for the
normalness of
birth, etc...

erin

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

I regret that I had so poorly educated myself about birth the first time.
Yes, I
>am thankful to have a healthy child, but often feel that something was
>taken from me, and from my child.
>Mary Ellen

I think that it is important to know and understand what we can change in
our lives, and be aware of what we can do differently in situations where
we get to "do it over again," like with having more children after a bad
experience. By the same token however, I feel that it is self destructive
to spend time lamenting things that are past. I look at every experience
in my life as a lesson, and some are much harder to take than others.
Sometimes (like with the loss of a loved one) it can be very hard to see
what you may have learned from it. The harder it is to take, the more
important the lesson. I cannot regret my past, because it has brought me
to who and where I am today, which is good.

Nanci K. in Idaho