[unschooling-dotcom] Forced Unschooling
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/27/2002 3:24:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bianchifam7@... writes:
If your son wants a curriculum, then he should get one, irrespective of any
of our prejudices against same.
Most likely, he will determine for himself that a curriculum is highly
overrated.
If, however, he does not, then his decision to follow a curriculum is, in and
of itself, a child-directed decision and is not contrary to unschooling.
Forcing a child to shun curricula, however, in my opinion, when the child
wishes to self-impose such structure, IS contrary to unschooling.
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bianchifam7@... writes:
> I can't imagine"Forced Unschooling" is a contradiction in terms.
> *forcing* someone to *unschool*.
If your son wants a curriculum, then he should get one, irrespective of any
of our prejudices against same.
Most likely, he will determine for himself that a curriculum is highly
overrated.
If, however, he does not, then his decision to follow a curriculum is, in and
of itself, a child-directed decision and is not contrary to unschooling.
Forcing a child to shun curricula, however, in my opinion, when the child
wishes to self-impose such structure, IS contrary to unschooling.
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>Forcing a child to shun curricula, however, in my opinion, when the childWell...except that this is a child who has never known any other way. He has
>>wishes to self-impose such structure, IS contrary to unschooling.>>
been told all his life that *this* (meaning schooly stuff) is how you learn.
In fact, it's the ONLY way you learn. And if you don't do it, and do it
"right", you'll fail to learn anything. He's scared. That's not the best
point from which to make the best decisions.
And this is not a criticism of his parents, or saying that his mom has told
him all this. This message is everywhere. He's probably truly afraid that
he'll amount to nothing and be ignorant his whole life. He needs to
experience another way in order to get comfortable with it. It's why we all
feel the need to find support. We're going against the accepted norm.
So, even though he's asking for curriculum, and I wouldn't force him to shun
it exactly, I would do my best to point out and share all the other millions
of real-world opportunities for learning out there.
My newest thought on the matter is to just keep telling him "next week".
We'll get that curriculum next week. Spelling tests? Oh yeah, I'll have
great words for you next week. If he goes along with the game of never
getting to the curriculum then great. If he gets upset and wants next week
"right now", then go to plan B and bring out the eclectic low-cost, no
pressure stuff.
Life is good.
~Mary
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[email protected]
In a message dated 4/27/2002 3:49:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
because Sarah has a lot of 4H stuff going on and we won't be home much
anyway? We'll get back to your work next week." which he seems OK with as he
doesn't normally really enjoy schoolwork, except for our space unit. And, I
know that he DOES realize learning can take place out of workbooks just from
some comments he makes, though I don't think he realizes that you can learn
everything you need to know out of them, if that makes any sense! He likes
doing unit studies and going on fieldtrips and such and he knows that he
learns things outside of "work time". Though, I don't think he understands
that he doesn't *need* all this "stuff" imposed on him to learn "properly",
which is something that's hard to get through to anyone, let alone a stubborn
ten year old, especially when you still have some doubts yourself.
Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five
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zenmomma@... writes:
> My newest thought on the matter is to just keep telling him "next week".Yes, that's what I've been doing! "Why don't we just take this week off
> We'll get that curriculum next week. Spelling tests? Oh yeah, I'll have
> great words for you next week. If he goes along with the game of never
> getting to the curriculum then great. If he gets upset and wants next week
> "right now", then go to plan B and bring out the eclectic low-cost, no
> pressure stuff.
because Sarah has a lot of 4H stuff going on and we won't be home much
anyway? We'll get back to your work next week." which he seems OK with as he
doesn't normally really enjoy schoolwork, except for our space unit. And, I
know that he DOES realize learning can take place out of workbooks just from
some comments he makes, though I don't think he realizes that you can learn
everything you need to know out of them, if that makes any sense! He likes
doing unit studies and going on fieldtrips and such and he knows that he
learns things outside of "work time". Though, I don't think he understands
that he doesn't *need* all this "stuff" imposed on him to learn "properly",
which is something that's hard to get through to anyone, let alone a stubborn
ten year old, especially when you still have some doubts yourself.
Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/27/02 1:35:00 PM, Katedavislawfirm@... writes:
<< Forcing a child to shun curricula, however, in my opinion, when the child
wishes to self-impose such structure, IS contrary to unschooling.
it!
<< Forcing a child to shun curricula, however, in my opinion, when the child
wishes to self-impose such structure, IS contrary to unschooling.
>>I guess I'm forcing Holly to shun another trip to England. We can't afford
it!
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/27/2002 8:40:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
"must" go to... Seattle, Boston, NYC, D.C. again (she went when she was 9 and
loved it), L.A. again (she's been a few times in her life, but not since she
was 10), Hawaii again (she went as a baby), Florida again (went at 3),
Colorado, Phoenix, plus all of Canada, Italy, France, England, Ireland, and
Australia - you get the picture! We'd have to be *extremely* wealthy for her
to go to all the places she wants to go to! LOL
Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I guess I'm forcing Holly to shun another trip to England. We can't affordLOL... And I'm forcing my 12 yod to shun the trips to her list of places she
> it!
"must" go to... Seattle, Boston, NYC, D.C. again (she went when she was 9 and
loved it), L.A. again (she's been a few times in her life, but not since she
was 10), Hawaii again (she went as a baby), Florida again (went at 3),
Colorado, Phoenix, plus all of Canada, Italy, France, England, Ireland, and
Australia - you get the picture! We'd have to be *extremely* wealthy for her
to go to all the places she wants to go to! LOL
Sandra
Homeschooling Mom to Five
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/27/2002 8:40:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
something <BEG>.
I guess I wasn't really thinking of "curriculum" the way some people mean it.
I was thinking that if he feels like he needs some sort of "program" that she
could take him to a teacher supply store and he could pick out some stuff
there. Maybe "Science Experiments You Can Eat," for example.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> << Forcing a child to shun curricula, however, in my opinion, when the childWell, yeah, but you can offer her the substitute of a Monte Python movie or
>
> wishes to self-impose such structure, IS contrary to unschooling.
> >>
>
> I guess I'm forcing Holly to shun another trip to England. We can't afford
>
> it!
something <BEG>.
I guess I wasn't really thinking of "curriculum" the way some people mean it.
I was thinking that if he feels like he needs some sort of "program" that she
could take him to a teacher supply store and he could pick out some stuff
there. Maybe "Science Experiments You Can Eat," for example.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/27/2002 11:40:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
disapproves of or discourages it.
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> In a message dated 4/27/02 1:35:00 PM, Katedavislawfirm@... writes:Saying one cannot afford curricula is not the same thing as saying one
>
> << Forcing a child to shun curricula, however, in my opinion, when the
> child
> wishes to self-impose such structure, IS contrary to unschooling.
> >>
>
> I guess I'm forcing Holly to shun another trip to England. We can't afford
>
> it!
>
disapproves of or discourages it.
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/02 9:22:58 AM, Katedavislawfirm@... writes:
<< Saying one cannot afford curricula is not the same thing as saying one
disapproves of or discourages it. >>
In the context of this discussion, a mother who no longer wants to use a
curriculum felt obligated to buy an expensive one because her son wanted it.
Someone suggested a cheaper one. In the course of helping someone get from
where a child thinks he needs something that as an unschooler he will NOT
need to a place where the family is peacefully unschooling is not really
aided by a suggestion to find a cheaper curriculum.
To suggest that if the mother doesn't believe in a curriculum she tell the
child to buy his own is somewhat facetious and somewhat right on the money
(literally).
Sandra
<< Saying one cannot afford curricula is not the same thing as saying one
disapproves of or discourages it. >>
In the context of this discussion, a mother who no longer wants to use a
curriculum felt obligated to buy an expensive one because her son wanted it.
Someone suggested a cheaper one. In the course of helping someone get from
where a child thinks he needs something that as an unschooler he will NOT
need to a place where the family is peacefully unschooling is not really
aided by a suggestion to find a cheaper curriculum.
To suggest that if the mother doesn't believe in a curriculum she tell the
child to buy his own is somewhat facetious and somewhat right on the money
(literally).
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2002 11:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I began participating in the discussion when someone on this list suggested
that it was inappropriate to even be seriously discussing a "curriculum" in
the light of the subject of this list.
I disagreed, and I continue to disagree, with that point.
MY point is that, in my opinion, an unschooled child should have the
opportunity to use a curriculum if the child wishes so to do (and if, of
course, a curriculum is affordable by the family).
I, personally, do not think that a curriculum -- if selected by and
implemented by the child -- is anti-unschooling. I understand and agree with
the opinions expressed by list members that the child's desire for a
curriculum should be tested, whether such testing is by way of time, money,
intellect, or some other way.
HOWEVER, and again in my opinion, it is hypocritical and prejudicial of us to
believe that it is unschooling when a child chooses to cook, play with sticks
in the dirt, or milk the cows, but that it is anti-unschooling for a child to
choose to self-impose a curriculum. The distinction between subject matters,
in my opinion, is artificial. As someone (I believe it was you, Sandra)
properly (I think) pointed out, unschooling is not about the subjects, it is
about the method. Thus, if this child wishes to use a curriculum then I
would not squelch that desire merely because of some fear that the act of
studying a curriculum might somehow interfere with one's concept of
unschooling. If the child chose it, then it is unschooling. That's my
understanding of unschooling, anyway, even though it may not be yours or
anyone else's.
In my opinion, then, the presence or absence of a curriculum does not
correlate with the presence or absence of unschooling. Whether the child
caused the presence or absence of a curriculum, however, does correlate with
the presence of absence of unschooling.
Kate Davis
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> << Saying one cannot afford curricula is not the same thing as saying oneI never suggested that the mother find a cheaper curriculum.
> disapproves of or discourages it. >>
>
> In the context of this discussion, a mother who no longer wants to use a
> curriculum felt obligated to buy an expensive one because her son wanted
> it.
> Someone suggested a cheaper one. In the course of helping someone get from
>
> where a child thinks he needs something that as an unschooler he will NOT
> need to a place where the family is peacefully unschooling is not really
> aided by a suggestion to find a cheaper curriculum.
>
> To suggest that if the mother doesn't believe in a curriculum she tell the
> child to buy his own is somewhat facetious and somewhat right on the money
> (literally).
>
> Sandra
>
I began participating in the discussion when someone on this list suggested
that it was inappropriate to even be seriously discussing a "curriculum" in
the light of the subject of this list.
I disagreed, and I continue to disagree, with that point.
MY point is that, in my opinion, an unschooled child should have the
opportunity to use a curriculum if the child wishes so to do (and if, of
course, a curriculum is affordable by the family).
I, personally, do not think that a curriculum -- if selected by and
implemented by the child -- is anti-unschooling. I understand and agree with
the opinions expressed by list members that the child's desire for a
curriculum should be tested, whether such testing is by way of time, money,
intellect, or some other way.
HOWEVER, and again in my opinion, it is hypocritical and prejudicial of us to
believe that it is unschooling when a child chooses to cook, play with sticks
in the dirt, or milk the cows, but that it is anti-unschooling for a child to
choose to self-impose a curriculum. The distinction between subject matters,
in my opinion, is artificial. As someone (I believe it was you, Sandra)
properly (I think) pointed out, unschooling is not about the subjects, it is
about the method. Thus, if this child wishes to use a curriculum then I
would not squelch that desire merely because of some fear that the act of
studying a curriculum might somehow interfere with one's concept of
unschooling. If the child chose it, then it is unschooling. That's my
understanding of unschooling, anyway, even though it may not be yours or
anyone else's.
In my opinion, then, the presence or absence of a curriculum does not
correlate with the presence or absence of unschooling. Whether the child
caused the presence or absence of a curriculum, however, does correlate with
the presence of absence of unschooling.
Kate Davis
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/02 10:21:49 AM, Katedavislawfirm@... writes:
<< As someone (I believe it was you, Sandra)
properly (I think) pointed out, unschooling is not about the subjects, it is
about the method. >>
That was in a discussion of whether unschooling was the same stuff as school.
It is the same stuff as when school is dealing with the real world.
If school could, or tried to present the whole real world then a school
curriculum wouldn't be the finite set of information that it ends up being.
If a parent lets a child believe that he will know all the math he'll ever
need to know by following a curriculum, that is not a stream that leads into
the greater ocean of discovery learning. If a parent leads a child to think
(or lets him continue to think) that a bought unit study on ancient history
is going to be IT, no more to learn after that, I think neither the parent
nor the child will get to unschooling anytime soon, any more than if I get on
I-40 and drive East can I come to Denver without eventually turning around
and coming ALL that way back, or veering around in a big circle and getting
back some northern route.
People aren't coming to this list to find out the most circuitous route to
unschooling.
Sandra
<< As someone (I believe it was you, Sandra)
properly (I think) pointed out, unschooling is not about the subjects, it is
about the method. >>
That was in a discussion of whether unschooling was the same stuff as school.
It is the same stuff as when school is dealing with the real world.
If school could, or tried to present the whole real world then a school
curriculum wouldn't be the finite set of information that it ends up being.
If a parent lets a child believe that he will know all the math he'll ever
need to know by following a curriculum, that is not a stream that leads into
the greater ocean of discovery learning. If a parent leads a child to think
(or lets him continue to think) that a bought unit study on ancient history
is going to be IT, no more to learn after that, I think neither the parent
nor the child will get to unschooling anytime soon, any more than if I get on
I-40 and drive East can I come to Denver without eventually turning around
and coming ALL that way back, or veering around in a big circle and getting
back some northern route.
People aren't coming to this list to find out the most circuitous route to
unschooling.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2002 2:24:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
If a parent lets a child believe that he will know all the math he'll ever >
parents "leading" children to believe anything, but was about children
leading themselves. I thought that that was what you believed, too. Again,
that might be my mistake.
I don't believe that encouraging a child to follow the child's desire to
follow a curriculum is "the most circuitous route to unschooling." On the
contrary, I believe that encouraging a child to follow the child's desire to
follow a curriculum (or to follow the cows, the moon, or the poets) lies at
the heart of unschooling.
Kate Davis
Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
If a parent lets a child believe that he will know all the math he'll ever >
> need to know by following a curriculum, that is not a stream that leadsI thought (and this might be my mistake) that unschooling was not about
> into
> the greater ocean of discovery learning. If a parent leads a child to
> think
> (or lets him continue to think) that a bought unit study on ancient history
>
> is going to be IT, no more to learn after that, I think neither the parent
> nor the child will get to unschooling anytime soon, any more than if I get
> on
> I-40 and drive East can I come to Denver without eventually turning around
> and coming ALL that way back, or veering around in a big circle and getting
>
> back some northern route.
>
> People aren't coming to this list to find out the most circuitous route to
> unschooling.
>
> Sandra
>
parents "leading" children to believe anything, but was about children
leading themselves. I thought that that was what you believed, too. Again,
that might be my mistake.
I don't believe that encouraging a child to follow the child's desire to
follow a curriculum is "the most circuitous route to unschooling." On the
contrary, I believe that encouraging a child to follow the child's desire to
follow a curriculum (or to follow the cows, the moon, or the poets) lies at
the heart of unschooling.
Kate Davis
Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
In a message dated 4/28/2002 2:24:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
previous to starting unschooling. So he just wanted to continue doing what
his mother believed and led him to believe was true for the past 3 (I think)
years about learning: that learning needed a curriculum. But he wants to do
it at a much higher level with the ABeka.
Joyce
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If a parent lets a child believe that he will know all the math he'll everKatedavislawfirm@... at Katedavislawfirm@... wrote:
> need to know by following a curriculum, that is not a stream that leads into
> the greater ocean of discovery learning. If a parent leads a child to think
> (or lets him continue to think) that a bought unit study on ancient history
> is going to be IT, no more to learn after that, I think neither the parent nor
> the child will get to unschooling anytime soon on 4/28/02 2:44 PM,
> I thought (and this might be my mistake) that unschooling was not aboutI think Sandra was the only one remembering the son had been homeschooled
> parents "leading" children to believe anything, but was about children
> leading themselves.
previous to starting unschooling. So he just wanted to continue doing what
his mother believed and led him to believe was true for the past 3 (I think)
years about learning: that learning needed a curriculum. But he wants to do
it at a much higher level with the ABeka.
Joyce