Elizabeth Hill

**Sometimes a pet that has never been let out of the house or cage for
years
won't go out even with the nicest invitation and encouragement. Some
zip out
every chance they get without an invitation. Kids are the same with
increased freedoms. Some will say "About time!" and zoom, and others
will
say "I'm okay without it."**

Anybody who wants to learn more about this concept can put "learned
helplessness" into a search engine.

I think learned helplessness is one of the things that our school system
teaches very well! (Which is not a good thing.)

Betsy

Cathy Hilde

Betsy,
I really appreciated your comments about learned helplessness. I agree
totally about schools being in the business of keeping kids dependent. As
example I hear comments all the time from my neighbors that they are
frustrated because they are not being able to help their 4th grader with
their math homework.
Ooops, got carried away there. Let me back up and introduce myself. I just
joined the list and have been lurking for a while. I am Cathy, Mom to an
almost 10 year old boy and a 7 year old girl. Both tremendous kids who were
in public schools until this year. We are really enjoying being with each
other.
I read a lot about the concept of learned helplessness when my son was
younger. He was born with down syndrome and as you can imagine I always
wanted to jump in and do for him. But because we pulled back I have seen
over the years in him such growth in his desire to be independent. Which is
great but the biggest surprise has been the growth in his problem solving
skills. My husband and I have had to resist every urge to make life easier
and less challenging for him. We could see that by just jumping in we would
be taking away from him the opportunity to figure life out on his own.
I have enjoyed the energy on this list and look forward to learning a lot!
Cathy
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Intro / helpless habits


**Sometimes a pet that has never been let out of the house or cage for
years
won't go out even with the nicest invitation and encouragement. Some
zip out
every chance they get without an invitation. Kids are the same with
increased freedoms. Some will say "About time!" and zoom, and others
will
say "I'm okay without it."**

Anybody who wants to learn more about this concept can put "learned
helplessness" into a search engine.

I think learned helplessness is one of the things that our school system
teaches very well! (Which is not a good thing.)

Betsy


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John Julian

<<**Sometimes a pet that has never been let out of the house or cage for
years
won't go out even with the nicest invitation and encouragement. Some
zip out
every chance they get without an invitation. Kids are the same with
increased freedoms. Some will say "About time!" and zoom, and others
will
say "I'm okay without it."**>>

I have had this explained to me as the prisonner missing the structure of prison after being released. My daughter, who has been out of school for two years is a free spirit - she was the "It's about time!" kid.

My son came out of a school which took "structure" to new heights, or depths, as it were. He has been home for one year.

Any helpful suggestions on ways to help a child who misses/needs? structure, yet remain true to unschooloing?

How long can it take to "deschool"? Could we still be experiencing "deschooling" after a year?

Thanks!

Shelly

(I plan to check on the internet as well - thanks for the suggestion.)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/25/02 1:00:08 PM, jsjulian@... writes:

<< Any helpful suggestions on ways to help a child who misses/needs?
structure, yet remain true to unschooloing? >>

Yes!

Let him create his own structure. Get him a daytimer or a big wall calendar,
and let him plan to his heart's content!

If it were me, I would provide whatever a structure-requesting kid wanted and
then would politely decline to enforce any of their self-imposed rules and
deadlines.

Several times Holly has proposed some structure or schedule or "rules" and I
ask why, or just kind of chat with her about what she hopes to accomplish,
and it's never gone past one day. But she does like to THINK about things
like what if she had to do five things by 11:00 a.m., and such.

<<How long can it take to "deschool"? Could we still be experiencing
"deschooling" after a year?>>

I don't figure deschooling can even START until after the parents and
children are really intending to unschool. Until unschooling is the true
goal, the kids might just see it as vacation between sessions--the lull
before the inevitable curricular storm, perhaps, to their way of thinking.

I wouldn't start counting the deschooling until AFTER you commit to not going
back to the actual or home-style "school."

Sandra

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/24/2002 6:12:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:


> I think learned helplessness is one of the things that our school system
> teaches very well! (Which is not a good thing.)

YES -- that is really a big one for me - very very big!! It is exactly what I
see in my college students. And it is very sad.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>Any helpful suggestions on ways to help a child who misses/needs?
>>structure, yet remain true to unschooloing?>>

I would give him what he asks for/needs right now, but not impose anything
on him. If he wants classes or homework, help him set those things up for
himself. But don't check if he attends or grade his work. Whatever he's
looking for, help him make it *his* project.

And while he's possibly phasing out of some of the structure, you can also
be offering some very cool alternatives for him. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary


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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

zenmomma *

>>Actually, we're not out of the school program (that was in my original
>>post.) My daughter is in public school right now.>>

Oops. Sorry, Jo Anna, I must have missed that. But I don't think I'll change
my advice. If you're planning on taking her out of the school system,
there's no good reason to leave her there another minute IMO. You can still
start your learning adventure now. And in doing so, you'll be saving her
from a couple of months of school and its baggage. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary




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Jo Anna C. Becker

Hmmm, I don't agree. While I understand what you're saying, this is
something we are easing into. In addition, she only has 5 weeks of school
left, and I think not letting her finish out the year with her friends and
her teacher would have a negative impact. As much as she doesn't enjoy
doing schoolwork, the thing she DOES like about school is her friends and
teacher, and the last few weeks are winding down on academics and focusing
on doing fun stuff. It's her favorite time of year!

Jo Anna

-----Original Message-----
From: zenmomma * [mailto:zenmomma@...]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Re: Intro / helpless habits


If you're planning on taking her out of the school system, there's no good
reason to leave her there another minute IMO. You can still start your
learning adventure now. And in doing so, you'll be saving her
from a couple of months of school and its baggage. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

. As much as she doesn't enjoy
> doing schoolwork, the thing she DOES like about school is her
friends and
> teacher, and the last few weeks are winding down on academics and
focusing
> on doing fun stuff. It's her favorite time of year!
>
> Jo Anna
>

If it were me, I would let my daughter know that she did not have to
worry about the school work or grades or anything that schools deem
important(except for behavior rules).
I would let her go if she felt like it and not go on days she didn't.
I would let her enjoy it for what she wants from it and not stress
about any of the acedemics.
That would probably be a hard thing to do for both of you.
She would probably just go along with the program, since she wants to
be there, but atleast the attitude would be different. It would be
her choice. If she doesn't go along, she probably doesn't really
want to be there, and you can take her out. You really are free!
Do what you want!
Joanna

zenmomma *

>>she only has 5 weeks of school left, and I think not letting her finish
>>out the year with her friends and her teacher would have a negative
>>impact.>>

I guess I wasn't being clear. :o) I never meant that you should force her
into unschooling or not let her finish the school year if that's what she
wants to do. That would certainly defeat the purpose of handing her back
some control over her own life/education wouldn't it? ;-)

I'll stick by this statement, though. "You can still start your
learning adventure now." If your focus moves away from the schoolwork and
out into experiences and doing and watching and learning, you all might get
to the joy and freedom faster. :o)

>>It's her favorite time of year!>>

Spring is my favorite time of the year too! :o) Aahhhh...flowers and green
grass instead of snow and ice. Bliss.

Life is good.
~Mary

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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/2002 8:56:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
joannab@... writes:


> Hmmm, I don't agree. While I understand what you're saying, this is
> something we are easing into. In addition, she only has 5 weeks of school
> left, and I think not letting her finish out the year with her friends and
> her teacher would have a negative impact. As much as she doesn't enjoy
> doing schoolwork, the thing she DOES like about school is her friends and
> teacher, and the last few weeks are winding down on academics and focusing
> on doing fun stuff. It's her favorite time of year!

Joanna -- I let Roya (who is now 17) finish her last 6 weeks of 4th grade
after "I" had decided she was going to homeschool after that. She didn't want
to try it. I asked her to give me a few months and promised we'd reconsider
then. After a few weeks there was NO WAY she was wanting to go back. We
started out doing "unit studies" and our first one was "the oceans." We went
to Sea World, the aquarium, and to the BEACH almost every single day. And I
did not fail to gently mention, "Look at those kids in school, while WE are
going to the beach," as we passed by. We rented tapes of sea chanteys and
drew lifesize whales (in chalk) in the street and went to a museum to see
seascapes and visited a "tall ship" and on and on. We had a great time and
Roya was thrilled and could absolutely see that this was REAL learning as
opposed to wasting her time in school.

And - she was worried about friends, so I put a big calendar on the
refrigerator and made playdates for her, in advance, and put them, along with
Girl Scout meetings and soccer practice times, on the calendar. That was
enough for her - knowing that she'd still have time with friends.

I let her finish school because she was happy there - it was ME who could see
how much better things could be - I was the one with the homeschooling
vision, not her. She had projects and performances and end-of-year activities
she was looking forward to.


--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

you know pam, every time i read your post i find more we have in common. i
just started hsing my daughteralmost 3 months ago. she was in the last of
fourth grade. she had a teacher who constantly attacked my parenting and
dee's self esteem.the things you did with your daughter sound alot like what
we are now doing.i so enjoy your advice comments and honesty.
tina