Reading/spelling was Paperback boogies JOYCE”S FEEDBACK

zenmomma *

24 Apr 2002, at 2:53pm

>>Spelling is proven to NOT be natural and I really detest the "whole
>>language" approach to spelling.>>

I'm curious as to where you've seen this proven? (I'm not attacking, I'm
really curious. :o)) My daughter has always been unschooled and learned to
read in what I guess would be called a whole language approach. She was
surrounded by language (written and spoken). We read to and with her,
answered her questions, played games, etc. No formal lessons of any kind.
She's 8 and a pretty good reader by most standards, I guess.

Her spelling also improves every day. She's doing this by real life writing.
Letters to friends, stories, poems, labels, charts, etc. Sometimes she asks
me for spellings and I'll throw in a helpful phonics rule. Lots of times
I'll just spell the word for her. Other times she knows instinctively or
something how to get to a correct spelling.I haven't seen any negative
spelling effects for her based on how she learned to read.

My son *does* have trouble with spelling and sounding out words. But he was
the one who got more phonics in his life. I also wouldn't blame phonics for
his difficulties, though. It think it has more to do with how his brain
works. He's a big-picture thinker and gobbles up entire paragraphs without
worrying about the details of one or two words. Works for him.

>>Most of us learned from ps, and maybe didn't remember all the rules, but
>>learned the basic i before e except after c, type thing.>>

Valerie Cifuentes

24 Apr 2002, at 3:50pm

>>>>>>I remember reading once that this rule is "not" true more often

than it "is"
true. Does anyone know...is this true? ;-)<<<<<<

>>>>Sometimes she asks me for spellings and I'll throw in a helpful

phonics rule. Lots of times I'll just spell the word for her.<<<<<<

Hrm:o) "Helpful" is an excellent choice of wording. :O) I'm not
trying to by coy.
But if you merely spell the word for her how can she be independent in
the future by knowing how to spell it herself because of a rule that she
knows and then branching off into other words herself WITHOUT your
input, unless needed. I think it would be frustrating to see a trend but
not have it given to me fully what the method is, which would save
plenty of time and energy. IMVHO.

I'm asking this meekly, "How can my children learn the consistency of
spelling rules if I dont teach them to them." Also; "Wouldn't it be
easier to just find a system that works and teach it to them for clarity
of focus?" At their own pace of course.

My reasoning right now is that I'm grateful for the ones that went
before me and produced something I can use to teach this to my children
since Im not in a position in my life to research and develop for them.
Someone has kindly done it for me. :O)

Please understand that the system I'm referring to does NOT give
redundant writing exercises and lists of spelling words to copy out. If
my child knows what "ull" sounds as in the word, "gull" then he has
captured the sound and I will not teach "full" "pull" "skull" and blah
blah blah. However, if my child knows what "ull" sounds like, he can
then create those words by himself in the future, and more like them!
With the knowledge of handy "rules" to spelling he has a guide to go by
and can hit the target more readily and I think that fosters
independence, motivation and confidence in conquering the English
language. :O) <phew!>

Moving on....... :o) Your so kind to entertain my thoughts as I ponder!
:O)

THE RULE IS TRUE.

(Hope it doesn't bore anyone! :O) I find it neato though!)

The Always ei rule:

Every key word in the following sentence uses the ei phonogram
regardless of its sound.

*Neither the counterfeit heifer nor her protein was seized by the weird
foreign sovereign who did not forfeit leisure either.

Okay,

We always use ie never ie after the letter "c".

conceit deceive ceiling receipt

**If we hear the name sound of the letter 'e' within an English root
word, and we know we must choose either ei or ie, we choose ie.

[Here is the line of reasoning if you are familiar with the Spalding
Spelling Notebook Page 3. Do I use ei or ie? If the word we want to
spell is in the Nonsense Sentence Column, we use ei. If the word says
the name sound 'a' as in 'veil', we use ei.

If there is letter "c" preceding the name sound 'e' as in 'receive', we
also must use ei. If our word is none of the first three columns, by the
process of elimination, the word must use the ie phonogram saying the
name sound 'e' in the root word.]

belief brief field piece priest

:o) This program studies the 1700 most commonly used words in the
English language as well as 74 phonograms and 41 rarities. I dont have
to waste time with words that they will not encounter frequently. And it
sticks to the English language, so I'm not forcing a foreign language on
them. Though we will be learning Spanish so we can communicate in a
second language.

BLESSINGS!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
-----Original Message-----
From: zenmomma * [mailto:zenmomma@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Reading/spelling was Paperback boogies
JOYCE"S FEEDBACK

>>Spelling is proven to NOT be natural and I really detest the "whole
>>language" approach to spelling.>>

I'm curious as to where you've seen this proven? (I'm not attacking, I'm

really curious. :o)) My daughter has always been unschooled and learned
to
read in what I guess would be called a whole language approach. She was
surrounded by language (written and spoken). We read to and with her,
answered her questions, played games, etc. No formal lessons of any
kind.
She's 8 and a pretty good reader by most standards, I guess.

Her spelling also improves every day. She's doing this by real life
writing.
Letters to friends, stories, poems, labels, charts, etc. Sometimes she
asks
me for spellings and I'll throw in a helpful phonics rule. Lots of times

I'll just spell the word for her. Other times she knows instinctively or

something how to get to a correct spelling.I haven't seen any negative
spelling effects for her based on how she learned to read.

My son *does* have trouble with spelling and sounding out words. But he
was
the one who got more phonics in his life. I also wouldn't blame phonics
for
his difficulties, though. It think it has more to do with how his brain
works. He's a big-picture thinker and gobbles up entire paragraphs
without
worrying about the details of one or two words. Works for him.

>>Most of us learned from ps, and maybe didn't remember all the rules,

but

>>learned the basic i before e except after c, type thing.>>

I remember reading once that this rule is "not" true more often than it
"is"
true. Does anyone know...is this true? ;-)

Life is good.
~Mary

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[email protected]

24 Apr 2002, at 4:07pm

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:50:02 -0400 "Valerie Cifuentes"
<homeschool@...> writes:

> If
> my child knows what "ull" sounds as in the word, "gull" then he has
> captured the sound and I will not teach "full" "pull" "skull" and blah
> blah blah. However, if my child knows what "ull" sounds like, he can
> then create those words by himself in the future, and more like
> them

Valerie Cifuentes

24 Apr 2002, at 5:39pm

See, to be there are two different sounds here - I say skull and gull so
they rhyme, and pull and full so they rhyme, but those two sets don't
rhyme with each other... and my dictiobary agrees with me. The letters
"ull" makes two different sounds, a regular short u sound ("uh") and
more
of a oo sound, but not quite oo as in pool...

So, phonics would mess me up here.<<<<<<<<<<<

Unfortunately I wrote those without really thinking, you are correct. My
excuse is that my posts have been long and my mind is turning mush like.
:o)

The phoneme 'u' has three sounds. uh "hut" u music oo as in put (and
there is a lift in this sound, not like skull.
Skull is using the first sound as in "hut"

The "u" make THREE sounds.

The dictionary is very helpful in deciphering our language.
Thanks for your feedback.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
-----Original Message-----
From: freeform@... [mailto:freeform@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] "i" before "e" except after "c" rule
:O)

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:50:02 -0400 "Valerie Cifuentes"
<homeschool@...> writes:

> If
> my child knows what "ull" sounds as in the word, "gull" then he has
> captured the sound and I will not teach "full" "pull" "skull" and

blah

> blah blah. However, if my child knows what "ull" sounds like, he can
> then create those words by himself in the future, and more like
> them

jfetteroll

24 Apr 2002, at 5:52pm

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Valerie Cifuentes" <homeschool@c...>
wrote:

> I'm asking this meekly, "How can my children learn the consistency
> of spelling rules if I don't teach them to them."

I suspect this is the type of thing we could discuss all day and not
make any real progress on because learning by immersion just doesn't
make as much sense as learning formally.

I don't think you'll be able to get this intellectually because right
now it's all just a bunch of weird unschoolers with this wacky theory
from your point of view. ;-)

But the thing that can't be argued with is that the kids *do* learn
to spell without being formally taught. It makes no sense from a
schoolish perspective but the data is there is there and needs
explained! ;-) So perhaps turn your thinking around from this can't
work to this does work so why does it work if it doesn't make sense?

My daughter (and thousands of other unschooled children) are learning
to spell without being taught. And they are doing it with no more
effort than learning to speak English.

> Also; "Wouldn't it be
> easier to just find a system that works and teach it to them for
> clarity of focus?" At their own pace of course.

*If* learning to spell without a system were difficult then it would
be easier. But learning without a program is painless and goes on
pretty much without a great deal of conscious effort.

Maybe it would help to realize that humans are naturally drawn to
discover patterns. We really can't help it. :-) And that's what
children naturally do with language without thinking about it. They
absorb huge amounts of data and they unconsciously search for
patterns. Just as they did learning to speak English. Think of all
the irregular verbs they mastered just by memorizing. And despite all
those irregular verbs they can conjugate brand new verbs using the
standard rule without being taught: I bake/he bakes/they bake, I
sluff/he sluffs/they sluff.

It makes no sense. But there are thousands of kids that can't be
explained away by "it makes no sense" :-)

Joyce

Valerie Cifuentes

24 Apr 2002, at 5:56pm

And then there's through though tough bough cough, which should rhyme,
phonetically speaking, but don't...

You may delete but for those who are interested.

Well the phoneme "ou" says

ou as in mouse,

o as in soul,

oo as in soup

u as in touch.

Where as ough has a total of SIX sounds!

o oo uff off aw ow

o as in though oo as in through uff as in rough off as in
cough as in bought ow as in bough

And then there's through though tough bough cough, which should rhyme,
phonetically speaking, but don't...

Dar

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Lynda

24 Apr 2002, at 6:22pm

Let's see, "I before E except after C and in words that say I or A like
Einstein and weigh."

The most readily known exceptions being: seize, either*, weird, foreign,
leisure, conscience, counterfeit, forfeit, leisure, neither, sufficient,
species, efficient, sufficient, neither, weirdo, foreigner, seizure,
forfeiture, protein, caffeine, heifer, sheik

And the I before E words: relief, believe, niece, chief, sieve, frieze,
field, yield, priest, shield, pie,

And the E before I words: receive, deceive, ceiling, conceit, vein, sleigh,
freight, eight, receipt, conceited, conceive

A words: neighbor, weigh, weight, sleigh, eight

I words: Eileen, height, sleight, stein, Einstein, science

*either depends on how you pronounce it as to whether or not it is an
exception.

So, the rule words would total slightly more than the exception words.

Lynda

----- Original Message -----
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Reading/spelling was Paperback boogies JOYCE"S
FEEDBACK

> >>Spelling is proven to NOT be natural and I really detest the "whole
> >>language" approach to spelling.>>
>
> I'm curious as to where you've seen this proven? (I'm not attacking, I'm
> really curious. :o)) My daughter has always been unschooled and learned to
> read in what I guess would be called a whole language approach. She was
> surrounded by language (written and spoken). We read to and with her,
> answered her questions, played games, etc. No formal lessons of any kind.
> She's 8 and a pretty good reader by most standards, I guess.
>
> Her spelling also improves every day. She's doing this by real life
writing.
> Letters to friends, stories, poems, labels, charts, etc. Sometimes she
asks
> me for spellings and I'll throw in a helpful phonics rule. Lots of times
> I'll just spell the word for her. Other times she knows instinctively or
> something how to get to a correct spelling.I haven't seen any negative
> spelling effects for her based on how she learned to read.
>
> My son *does* have trouble with spelling and sounding out words. But he
was
> the one who got more phonics in his life. I also wouldn't blame phonics
for
> his difficulties, though. It think it has more to do with how his brain
> works. He's a big-picture thinker and gobbles up entire paragraphs without
> worrying about the details of one or two words. Works for him.
>
> >>Most of us learned from ps, and maybe didn't remember all the rules, but
> >>learned the basic i before e except after c, type thing.>>
>
> I remember reading once that this rule is "not" true more often than it
"is"
> true. Does anyone know...is this true? ;-)
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
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>
>

Valerie Cifuentes

24 Apr 2002, at 6:37pm

That was neat! LOL!

Well, really I didnt address it as "I before E except after C"
But the way I addressed it was the IE phoneme. :OD

Which fits into all that you have written! LOL!
Thanks for that!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Valerie Cifuentes
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT FORWARDS, CHAIN LETTERS AND PETITIONS. THEY ARE
FILLING UP MY BOX AND TAKING UP MY TIME. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!
http://nolen.home.texas.net/valerie/Cifuentes.html
I'm A Navy Brat & Wife of HM2 Cifuentes; Active Duty Navy, & Mother of
Three Young Navy Brats!
*~*PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AS I CHECK EMAIL ONCE IN THE MORNING & EVENING
AFTER 3:00PM AND NOT ON SUNDAY (THE LORD'S DAY.)*~*
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynda [mailto:lurine@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Reading/spelling was Paperback boogies
JOYCE"S FEEDBACK

Let's see, "I before E except after C and in words that say I or A like
Einstein and weigh."

The most readily known exceptions being: seize, either*, weird,
foreign,
leisure, conscience, counterfeit, forfeit, leisure, neither, sufficient,
species, efficient, sufficient, neither, weirdo, foreigner, seizure,
forfeiture, protein, caffeine, heifer, sheik

And the I before E words: relief, believe, niece, chief, sieve, frieze,
field, yield, priest, shield, pie,

And the E before I words: receive, deceive, ceiling, conceit, vein,
sleigh,
freight, eight, receipt, conceited, conceive

A words: neighbor, weigh, weight, sleigh, eight

I words: Eileen, height, sleight, stein, Einstein, science

*either depends on how you pronounce it as to whether or not it is an
exception.

So, the rule words would total slightly more than the exception words.

Lynda

----- Original Message -----
From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Reading/spelling was Paperback boogies
JOYCE"S
FEEDBACK

> >>Spelling is proven to NOT be natural and I really detest the "whole
> >>language" approach to spelling.>>
>
> I'm curious as to where you've seen this proven? (I'm not attacking,
I'm
> really curious. :o)) My daughter has always been unschooled and
learned to
> read in what I guess would be called a whole language approach. She
was
> surrounded by language (written and spoken). We read to and with her,
> answered her questions, played games, etc. No formal lessons of any
kind.
> She's 8 and a pretty good reader by most standards, I guess.
>
> Her spelling also improves every day. She's doing this by real life
writing.
> Letters to friends, stories, poems, labels, charts, etc. Sometimes she
asks
> me for spellings and I'll throw in a helpful phonics rule. Lots of
times
> I'll just spell the word for her. Other times she knows instinctively
or
> something how to get to a correct spelling.I haven't seen any negative
> spelling effects for her based on how she learned to read.
>
> My son *does* have trouble with spelling and sounding out words. But
he
was
> the one who got more phonics in his life. I also wouldn't blame
phonics
for
> his difficulties, though. It think it has more to do with how his
brain
> works. He's a big-picture thinker and gobbles up entire paragraphs
without
> worrying about the details of one or two words. Works for him.
>
> >>Most of us learned from ps, and maybe didn't remember all the rules,
but
> >>learned the basic i before e except after c, type thing.>>
>
> I remember reading once that this rule is "not" true more often than
it
"is"
> true. Does anyone know...is this true? ;-)
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line!
~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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[email protected]

24 Apr 2002, at 10:10pm

In a message dated 4/24/02 1:52:28 PM, homeschool@... writes:

<< But if you merely spell the word for her how can she be independent in

the future by knowing how to spell it herself because of a rule that she

knows and then branching off into other words herself WITHOUT your

input, unless needed >>

If someone tells me how to get to their house, it doesn't keep me from
learning to read maps when necessary.

If someone is writing, their goal at that moment is writing, not learning to
spell. I'm glad to spell words for ANYONE who asks, no matter how much they
"should" know them or whether it's their first time. There are leisurely
times to discuss why leisurely isn't i before e, and times to just spell it
and move along.

Sandra

carolyn

24 Apr 2002, at 11:42pm

There's a reason why? I thought it just was. Now, I'm curious -- what
is the reason? If you're feeling leisurely, of course.

Carolyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> There are leisurely
> times to discuss why leisurely isn't i before e, and times to just
> spell it
> and move along.

zenmomma *

25 Apr 2002, at 10:17am

>>But if you merely spell the word for her how can she be independent in the
>>future by knowing how to spell it herself because of a rule that she knows
>>and then branching off into other words herself WITHOUT your input, unless
>>needed.>>

She's learning to spell because she recognizes the spelling patterns
herself. It's when I see that she's having difficulty that I'll present her
with a tip (or rule) to help her see them. It's only helpful to her when she
needs it. And her flow of writing is uninterrupted by the formalities of
spelling. She is a prolific writer, with notebooks full of stories, poems,
facts and observations. And from what I can see, her spelling improves every
day. I'm not about to mess with success. ;-)

I'm not saying that phonics rules are useless, or something to be avoided.
I'm just saying that in my experience the rules are not something that need
to be "taught" in a systemized fashion. Or that they are something that need
to be in place before a child can begin to write freely. For me, Casey's
writing has been evidence that spelling progress *can* be achieved playfully
and over time.

Thanks for the explanation of the i before e rule. I must admit though, that
all of the rule stuff was pretty dry reading and I tended to just skim over
it. And the fact that even you, who seem VERY well versed on your phonics
BTW :o), gave a wrong example with the "ull" sound, leads me to believe
there are easier ways to achieve the goal than trying to always remember a
rule.

Since you are so passionate and knowledgable about the phonics rules, you
may be able to pass on this knowledge to your kids in a natural, playful
way. The way Sandra does with word origins to her kids. Something to ponder
before you whip out the lesson plans. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary

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