[email protected]

In a message dated 4/24/02 8:45:26 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< My second thought is that you seem to be saying that any homeschooler
or parent for that matter who doesn't take to unschooling must not
respect their children properly. So is that really what you think? >>

This is asked in such a way it might be hard for it to be answered calmly.

We can't (nor can any one person among us) make everyone happy. The world is
a big place, and luckily we're not responsible for making even any one single
person happy on this list, or in our homes, or anywhere else.

People are free to move around (especially those on the internet!) and if
they're in pain, one click of the mouse takes the stimulus away. (Remember
Bill Cosby's "Chicken Heart" routine? The solution was "TURN OFF THE RADIO!")

On a clearly marked unschooling list, unschooling advice is to be expected.
If in a specifically discussed incident (like "I make my kids practice piano
an hour a day") it would not be unreasonable for someone to say "If a child
is wanting to take a two week or two year break from piano, couldn't you
respect the child's wishes?"

That would be a definite suggestion that putting the hour of practice ahead
of the child's feelings about the practice could be disrespectful. It's a
definite invitation for the parent to reconsider priorities.

We can't be expected to make all UNSCHOOLERS happy, so let's not move toward
wanting to make all unschoolers AND structured schoolers happy. Nobody's
doing that.

It wouldn't be okay to interrupt church to say "So are you really saying that
those who don't believe as you do could go to hell for it?" Or to interrupt
a Kirby vaccuum sales pitch to say, "SO, you're saying these are stronger and
better made than Hoovers?"

If someone believes something strongly, they believe it to be better than
those other options they considered and moved away from to get where they
are. Those who have stopped smoking think that is a better thing than two
packs a day. Those who used to drink but have stopped probably do NOT sit
around thinking, "Gee.... I'm sure I'm no better off than when I was drinking
a case of beer a day..."

Those who go to AA could come out and say "He called me a drunk! He
suggested perhaps I'm not as respectful to my family while I'm drinking as I
could be!"

AA sponsors don't go door to door in pairs saying, "Do you know about
Alcoholics Anonymous? Would you like to know more?" People go to them.

And people come to unschooling lists to find out about unschooling. If we
water it down to a really comfortable, evasive, mushy vague thing, they won't
learn bout unschooling. If we don't ask them to question their attitudes and
priorities, they might not come to question them.

For personal enlightenment, people have their whole lives.
For getting from a frustrating place of homeschooling not working to a
comfortable unschooling place, some families have fifteen years stretching
out in front of them. Some have three, and they need some quicker advice.

If this were run as a school-style course of study, we would have a new batch
of people all at once, and the first week could be really soft and gentle,
and we could build up to the hard stuff gradually over twelve weeks or
whatever. But people come here for a day, or a year. We don't know how long
they'll be here. Some people come for a while, go away and think, and come
back.

Some people (in any class, or at any AA, church, piano school, work party)
don't REALLY intend to learn in good faith. They're there because someone
made them be, or they're there because their friend is, or because they want
to go, check it out, prove they don't like it, and tell someone (mom?
husband? kids?) "Okay, I tried it. It's stupid. I'm not going back."

Sandra

Jennifer Deets

Sandra's response struck me because of what I've noticed in the neighborhood. One 8-year-old girl who hardly every plays outside but who has been out more recently said to my 8-year-old daughter, "My mom [a high school teacher] said that homeschool kids don't really learn anything." I asked, with more trepidation than I expected to feel, "So what did you say to her?" Alexandra replied, "I told her, 'That's not true.'" And off she ran.

Here's my hunch. Because homeschooling, and especially unschooling, is a life choice that implicitly judges schools as not optimum places for kids and their learning, folks who send their kids to schools might feel that we who don't are thereby judging them. They respond to percieved criticisms of their choices by becoming defensive or by attacking.

It may be true that I think our choice is best for us, but I also think it's a pretty good choice in general. I see many families who could probably be happier if they let go of the expectation that learning happens best in schools and if they rid themselves of this idea that it's not fun to be with their children most days. So, in a sense, my actions do reflect a judgement. I don't, however, tell my kids that "school kids don't learn anything." We talk about freedom and choices more than academic-type stuff. I don't want them to dismiss or to be afraid of school because the day might come when they want to go. Plus, to think of schools that way is mighty disrespectful of all the people who have been schooled and who have done great and wonderful things, so we try to focus on balance.

Jennifer


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

**Some people (in any class, or at any AA, church, piano school, work
party)
don't REALLY intend to learn in good faith. They're there because
someone
made them be, or they're there because their friend is, or because they
want
to go, check it out, prove they don't like it, and tell someone (mom?
husband? kids?) "Okay, I tried it. It's stupid. I'm not going back."**

I'm betting that everyone here is here because *something* about
Unschooling piqued their curiosity. Even if inside their heads they are
thinking "Damn, I can't imagine how that could work!"

A desire to lift the veil and see the inner mechanisms and poke around
and try to see if they truly work seems to me a pretty good start for
learning. Curiousity and faith aren't the same things, but curiousity
strikes me as a reasonable attitude to bring to this list.

(I know I'm really tangenting off sideways from what you said. I'm just
dinking around w. your ideas, not trying to refute them. Just bend 'em
a little.)

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/24/02 1:06:41 PM, jdeets@... writes:

<< I don't, however, tell my kids that "school kids don't learn anything."
We talk about freedom and choices more than academic-type stuff. I don't want
them to dismiss or to be afraid of school because the day might come when
they want to go. >>

I feel that same way. Since I had fun in school and learned lots (in and out
both, and by reading the library for sure), I don't badmouth school to the
kids, but I do remind them of the realities of not getting to get up and
leave when you're bored and such minor details. Holly's the only one who's
ever wanted to go, and visiting with a friend cured her pretty quickly.

I don't want them to be afraid of school because the day might come when they
HAVE to go. Although I guess if a metor fell on every adult in my immediate
life who might take them, some of the unschoolers I know might possibly
volunteer to let them visit for a while, especially as the boys are already
adult-sized people.

Sandra

Jennifer Deets

We've been busy (who hasn't) -- in three days the inbox sure does fill up!!

Anyway, I hadn't even thought of the possibility of leaving them without parents, nevermind all relatives...(delusions of immortality?). But you bring up a good point.

Lisa Delpit, in "Other People's Children," writes about the "culture of power" in schools. She is addressing the needs of children who are not raised in middle-class, Standard-American-English-speaking homes (an issue unto itself). Her basic point is that teachers need to be explicit about what the "rules" of this culture are and they need to tech the rules explicitly to all kids. Extending that to unschooling, if we are explicit about what schools are, what teachers typically expect, and how to get by, our kids' real learning can still happen whenever and however they want it to even if they have to go to school.... I'm sure some of us spend the better portion of our days at jobs that serve the purpose of providing needed income while the rest of our time is spent pursuing our real interests....

Jennifer


I don't badmouth school to the
kids, but I do remind them of the realities of not getting to get up and
leave when you're bored and such minor details. Holly's the only one who's
ever wanted to go, and visiting with a friend cured her pretty quickly.

I don't want them to be afraid of school because the day might come when they
HAVE to go. Although I guess if a metor fell on every adult in my immediate
life who might take them, some of the unschoolers I know might possibly
volunteer to let them visit for a while, especially as the boys are already
adult-sized people.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

This post has made me ponder about cultural differences a bit and
wonder how muchof the misunderstanding here is rooted in cultural
differences between us.

I've been thinking alot about this this year because of our exchange
student. He's been here 8 months now. He still asks if he can take
juice or the fruit that is out specifically so it can be had by any
who want it. He still asks if he can take a shower. He still says
thank you every night to whoever cooked and to me (for allowing it) if
he heated something up for himself. IT DRIVES ME NUTS!!! I keep
telling him it is not necessary to ask about the things he knows are
there for all, like the fruit. And some day, I'm going to break and
tell him he can't have a shower 'cuz I like him stinky!

But the thing is, I know that this is because for 18 years he was
raised in a culture where this sort of thing is expected or even maybe
required. Gender roles are different in his country and I can see the
effects (less now than when he first got here but still some effects
are there.) And I wonder what he will take home with him? We he
have a difficult time because we are so different and he has gotten
used to our much less formal ways?

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Jennifer Deets" <jdeets@c...> wrote:
Her basic point is that teachers need to be
explicit about what the "rules" of this culture are and they need to
tech the rules explicitly to all kids. Extending that to unschooling,
if we are explicit about what schools are, what teachers typically
expect, and how to get by, our kids' real learning can still happen
whenever and however they want it to even if they have to go to
school.... I'm sure some of us spend the better portion of our days at
jobs that serve the purpose of providing needed income while the rest
of our time is spent pursuing our real interests....
>
> Jennifer
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/02 7:32:58 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< He still asks if he can take
juice or the fruit that is out specifically so it can be had by any
who want it. He still asks if he can take a shower. He still says
thank you every night to whoever cooked and to me (for allowing it) if
he heated something up for himself. IT DRIVES ME NUTS!!! >>

I think thanking the cook is a really good thing.
The others could be handled by a response like "You can eat this stuff
ANYtime," and even if you have to say it for months, you're being gracious to
someone who was being gracious to you and showing honest gratitude.

My husband and I have always said "please" and "thank you" to each other.
The kids picked it up easily, before they were aware.

And still, anytime someone makes food here and we sit down together and eat,
there's going to be honest commentary if something is especially good, and a
definite "thanks for making the lasagna!" or "Thanks for doing the salad,
Holly."

When Holly has friends leave she says "Thanks for coming over!" and when she
leaves friends' houses, she says "Thanks for letting me play," or "thanks for
having me over--I had a good time," or some such. We didn't coach her or
"make" her say these things. She has asked sometimes things like "What
should I say when people say 'Happy Birthday'?" or "What do I say when
people say 'You're cute'?" She's around people who communicate gratitude and
she wants to do it too.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 4/28/02 9:27 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> But the thing is, I know that this is because for 18 years he was
> raised in a culture where this sort of thing is expected or even maybe
> required.

I suspect it has a much different meaning there. I don't think he's asking
permission to take a shower. I think it's his culture's way of making sure
his plans aren't interfering with someone else's plans. If you told him no
he can't take a shower in order to get him to stop asking, it would be like
telling him to stop being considerate of others. It might be on the same
level as telling you to stop informing your family you're running down to
the store for a minute.

Joyce

rumpleteasermom

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind if he sau=ys thanks and such. But
thanking me for allowing him to cook for himself drives me nuts. So
does asking to take a shower some of the time.

He's been a good influence on Wyndham that way. Made W realize that
he should be thanking me when i do stuff for him, just like I thank W
for the stuff he does for me.

But the differences made me think of the cultural aspects and that's
why I was chatting about it.

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> I think thanking the cook is a really good thing.
> The others could be handled by a response like "You can eat this
stuff
> ANYtime," and even if you have to say it for months, you're being
gracious to
> someone who was being gracious to you and showing honest gratitude.
>
> My husband and I have always said "please" and "thank you" to each
other.
> The kids picked it up easily, before they were aware.
>
> And still, anytime someone makes food here and we sit down together
and eat,
> there's going to be honest commentary if something is especially
good, and a
> definite "thanks for making the lasagna!" or "Thanks for doing the
salad,
> Holly."
>
> When Holly has friends leave she says "Thanks for coming over!" and
when she
> leaves friends' houses, she says "Thanks for letting me play," or
"thanks for
> having me over--I had a good time," or some such. We didn't coach
her or
> "make" her say these things. She has asked sometimes things like
"What
> should I say when people say 'Happy Birthday'?" or "What do I say
when
> people say 'You're cute'?" She's around people who communicate
gratitude and
> she wants to do it too.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated Central Daylight Time, SandraDodd@... writes:


> <<And people come to unschooling lists to find out about unschooling. If we
> water it down to a really comfortable, evasive, mushy vague thing, they
> won't
> learn bout unschooling. If we don't ask them to question their attitudes
> and
> priorities, they might not come to question them. >>
>

Yes Sandra, that's right. But, I don't know that picking semantics apart
(and I'm not talking about defining the word unschooling) is the same as
trying to turn the list into a comfortable, evasive, mushy, vague thing.

For example, when I'm trying to describe some feelings I'm having about
letting go and the general idea is that it's good and somebody takes the
trouble to write and point out that the full moon was not that day but the
next, I think that's nitpicking.

And when someone either purposely or by accident writes "do respect" and is
corrected in front of everyone, I think this also has little to do with
unschooling.

I can only speak for myself. But, frankly, it is intimidating for me to
write when I have to worry that every thing I say is going to be scrutinized
so carefully. To me, that whole attitude is very "schoolish."

I agree completely with you that there needs to be definitive reasons for
this list existing and that there are standards of unschooling to uphold. I
also don't think this list should be vague and mushy, because then it
wouldn't help anybody.

I have found yours and other people's straightforward, frank comments very
helpful.

But I also think that words are powerful things and that sometimes we need
to measure whether something we're about to say (write) is really necessary
to get our point across. I think sometimes the temptation to be sarcastic or
to point out things that really aren't pertinent to the writer's message can
be hurtful and that as fellow human beings, we need to think about that.

Yes, the old adge is...If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
And I do agree with that. We're all here by choice as far as I know. I am.

But that doesn't stop me from thinking that we can disagree in a respectful
way and that we can refrain from pointing out small idiosnycracies in
people's posts that don't really have anything to do with the whole picture
of unschooling. That's much different, I think, than turning the list into a
mushy, vague, thing that has no definitiveness.

I'm afraid to hit the send button on this, because it's been really nice to
sort of sit out of this discussion. But, I really feel it is important that
I learn not to be afraid to stand up for what I think, and that I will not
become confident as an unschooler, until I am able to defend my own actions.

So, here goes! I'm sticking my neck out (a bit anyway!)

Caro


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

Oh, Caro, I hate to disagree with you after you stuck your neck out and
everything!

By saying we could disagree respectfully -- which *is* a great idea! -- that
is assuming that some are being deliberately, maliciously disrespectful.
Yes, I know, I know, it's impossible to read some people's style or what
some people say as anything other than disrespectful. But we have to *trust*
that people are honestly and sincerely trying to help. (And it's my job to
get rid of the ones who aren't.)

But, and this is hard, if people are being who they are and how they are
bothers some people, well ...

We could jump on them to shut them up by pointing out how rude we keep
reading their words. But then we're saying it's right to silence or change
someone for expressing themselves the way they find most helpful just
because that style bugs us. And what about the next person who bugs us? Do
we silence/change them too? And the next person? And the next person?

Or we can learn to ignore those who (unintentionally) bother us and allow
them the same right of free speech that we appreciate others give to us.

It can seem like strong voices can take away our right to speak because we
feel intimidated by them. But that's not so. *They* aren't stopping us. *We*
stop ourselves from speaking because we don't want to feel that
intimidation.

That's a problem in *us*. We can't stop people from doing something we feel
is intimidating if they aren't doing so deliberately and maliciously.

But we *can* fix ourselves. We can decide their words aren't going to bother
us. We can decide to read their words another way. We can ignore them. We
can choose not to allow thier words to have power over us anymore. We have
that power.

We have *tremendous* power to change ourselves. We have very little power
(or right) to force someone else to change.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/02 12:55:28 PM, Burkfamily@... writes:

<< And when someone either purposely or by accident writes "do respect" and
is
corrected in front of everyone, I think this also has little to do with
unschooling. >>

If they're writing about how important spelling is and that they have the
secret and we're all in the ignorant dark... spelling counts THAT time.

<<But that doesn't stop me from thinking that we can disagree in a respectful
way and that we can refrain from pointing out small idiosnycracies in
people's posts that don't really have anything to do with the whole picture
of unschooling. That's much different, I think, than turning the list into a
mushy, vague, thing that has no definitiveness.>>

You're right.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 4:31:32 PM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> If they're writing about how important spelling is and that they have the
> secret and we're all in the ignorant dark... spelling counts THAT time.
>

Yes- you're right there. I didn't catch that! Thanks for posting back. I'm
behind a few days and I need to get more on topic!

Take care-

Caro


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 7:22:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> I don't think he's asking
> permission to take a shower. I think it's his culture's way of making sure
> his plans aren't interfering with someone else's plans

Because we don't have enough hot water, there needs to be 30 minutes or more
in between each shower around here, to let the water heat back up. And we
can't wash dishes or clothes or water the lawn or use any other water while
someone is showering. So it is really important for everyone around here to
plan ahead and coordinate showertaking with everybody else's plans.

--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 11:55:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Burkfamily@... writes:


> But that doesn't stop me from thinking that we can disagree in a respectful
> way and that we can refrain from pointing out small idiosnycracies in
> people's posts that don't really have anything to do with the whole picture
>
> of unschooling. That's much different, I think, than turning the list into
> a
> mushy, vague, thing that has no definitiveness.

As a really LOOOONG time email discussion list afficionado -- let me just say
that most of us refrain from pointing out small indosyncracies. Most of us
refrain from commenting on other people's posting styles. Most of us try
really hard to understand the REAL point of what someone is writing.

But - there will almost always be people around who are either fairly new to
email list discussions or just never caught on that nitpicking is
discouraging and destructive. So - another thing we've learned is that it is
almost always better to just ignore such comments.

SOMETIMES comments are called nitpicking when they are really not - sometimes
they are very very much to the point. And sometimes someone is just pointing
out something, because it is extra information, not realizing that it is
going to feel like criticizing to the person they are correcting. I think the
full moon thing was probably like that - that it was just a fyi thought - I'm
sure it wasn't intended to detract from your real point, which was poignant
and came across loud and clear, by the way!!!

--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Burkfamily@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/28/2002 4:31:32 PM Central Daylight Time,
> SandraDodd@a... writes
> > If they're writing about how important spelling is and that they
have the
> > secret and we're all in the ignorant dark... spelling counts
THAT time.
> >
>
> Yes- you're right there. I didn't catch that! Thanks for posting
back. I'm
> behind a few days and I need to get more on topic!
>
> Take care-
>
> Caro
>

Have you considered that by pointing out her spelling/word choice
mistake you just reinforced her belief that it is important?

Bridget

Hazy_lilly

--- rumpleteasermom <rumpleteasermom@...> wrote:
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Burkfamily@a...
> wrote:
> > In a message dated 4/28/2002 4:31:32 PM Central
> Daylight Time,
> > SandraDodd@a... writes
> > > If they're writing about how important spelling
> is and that they
> have the
> > > secret and we're all in the ignorant dark...
> spelling counts
> THAT time.
> > >
> >
> > Yes- you're right there. I didn't catch that!
> Thanks for posting
> back. I'm
> > behind a few days and I need to get more on topic!
> >
> > Take care-
> >
> > Caro
> >
>
> Have you considered that by pointing out her
> spelling/word choice
> mistake you just reinforced her belief that it is
> important?
>
> Bridget

I am not sure were the conversation started but I am
going to jump in. Is spelling important? I thought
as unschoolers we did not emphasize in spelling
corrections in our children's writting. I certainly
don't. Now I am wondering if I am suppose to. Most of
the literature i read on spelling including school
type literature speaks about not correcting grammer
and spelling. They will naturally spell well in the
end. Every time they write children will spell better.
Every time we point out the errors we block their
creativity and lower their trust in the writing
process. Am I wrong? Is it just by preference of
choice?

Hazel

Excuse the typos




>
>
>
>


=====
"When we make a choice we change the future" Deepak Chopra

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

rumpleteasermom

Hazel,
No spelling is not important. At least most of the time. I did
explain to Rachel that her jobs apps would be taken less seriously if
there were loads of misspelled words. But in a forum like this it is
irrelevant.
My comment goes back to a thread from a day or two ago. Someone was
saying that spelling was important and happened to misspell something
in the post. Someone else pointed it out saying that it's only to be
expected that if you misspell a word in a post about spelling you
should be corrected.
Today, it occurred to me, that by doing that, the second poster
probably reinforced the first poster's belief that spelling is
important, unintentionally, but in a way that probably hit home
nonetheless.
Again, I'm just pondering and wondering.

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Hazy_lilly <hazy_lilly@y...> wrote:

> > Have you considered that by pointing out her
> > spelling/word choice
> > mistake you just reinforced her belief that it is
> > important?
> >
> > Bridget
>
> I am not sure were the conversation started but I am
> going to jump in. Is spelling important? I thought
> as unschoolers we did not emphasize in spelling
> corrections in our children's writting. I certainly
> don't. Now I am wondering if I am suppose to. Most of
> the literature i read on spelling including school
> type literature speaks about not correcting grammer
> and spelling. They will naturally spell well in the
> end. Every time they write children will spell better.
> Every time we point out the errors we block their
> creativity and lower their trust in the writing
> process. Am I wrong? Is it just by preference of
> choice?
>
> Hazel
>
> Excuse the typos

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 9:26:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hazy_lilly@... writes:


> I am not sure were the conversation started but I am
> going to jump in. Is spelling important? I thought
> as unschoolers we did not emphasize in spelling
> corrections in our children's writting. I certainly
> don't. Now I am wondering if I am suppose to. Most of
> the literature i read on spelling including school
> type literature speaks about not correcting grammer
> and spelling. They will naturally spell well in the
> end. Every time they write children will spell better.
> Every time we point out the errors we block their
> creativity and lower their trust in the writing
> process. Am I wrong? Is it just by preference of
> choice?
>
> Hazel
>
> Excuse the typos
>

I, for one, believe that spelling is important. Presentation can mean the
difference between being understood and being misunderstood, or, worse, being
dismissed out of hand without any effort at understanding.

I do not believe that children "will naturally spell well in the end" if the
child has not chosen to focus on spelling at some point in time. Spelling,
in my opinion, is counter-intuitive.

And, although I very strongly believe that spelling is important, I generally
try to look past spelling, and to read for content. Words in a properly
spelled sentence are easier to read than are words in an improperly spelled
sentence. Similarly, diction, accent, and intonation are also important in
spoken language. A speaker delivering a most important speech might lose
many in the audience if the spoken words are monotonous, or slurred. It is
my opinion that if one really desires to be heard or understood, then one
should at least attempt to present the materials in a "proper" manner (that
is, "properly spelled").

Fur exsample, if i were to tryto make my point about spilling by misspleelin
words, then most people reading the sentence would, I think, dismiss the idea
as hogwash, or goobeldygock. And I would have just wasted my time trying to
make a point that nobody even considered as a result of the poor
presentation.

In any event, I have "strewn" spellers throughout the bookshelves in my home,
and hope that my children determine for themselves at some point in time that
spelling well is a good idea.

Kate Davis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

Let me clarify what I said before a bit. I don't think spelling is
always unimportant. I just think that in this context and in many
others it should not be considered important.

But I do believe spelling and grammar are important for some
documents. That's why it is important to learn where to get help.
How to proofread, use a spell checker and grammar checker, things like
that, are important if you are going to be a writer or in business or
a lawyer, etc. when you grow up. I don't really care if my mechanic
uses proper grammar though, I only care if he can fix my car.

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Katedavislawfirm@a... wrote:

>
> I, for one, believe that spelling is important. Presentation can
mean the
> difference between being understood and being misunderstood, or,
worse, being
> dismissed out of hand without any effort at understanding.
>
> I do not believe that children "will naturally spell well in the
end" if the
> child has not chosen to focus on spelling at some point in time.
Spelling,
> in my opinion, is counter-intuitive.

Fetteroll

on 4/29/02 9:14 AM, Hazy_lilly at hazy_lilly@... wrote:

> I am not sure were the conversation started but I am
> going to jump in. Is spelling important? I thought
> as unschoolers we did not emphasize in spelling
> corrections in our children's writting. I certainly
> don't. Now I am wondering if I am suppose to. Most of
> the literature i read on spelling including school
> type literature speaks about not correcting grammer
> and spelling. They will naturally spell well in the
> end. Every time they write children will spell better.
> Every time we point out the errors we block their
> creativity and lower their trust in the writing
> process. Am I wrong? Is it just by preference of
> choice?

This was a special instance. The poster was asking how unschooled kids could
possibly learn to spell because English wasn't regular so kids obviously
needed the rules explicitly taught. She insisted there wasn't any way the
kids could possibly figure them out on their own. And she had all sorts of
studies that proved her point and a program she used. She couldn't
understand why anyone wouldn't just use it rather than leaving things to
chance that couldn't possibly happen anyway.

We gave her plenty of examples of how it worked with our kids, pointing out
that inventive spelling was a stage they go through and they do figure out
the rules unconsciously even without being able recite them. But studies are
obviously are a more reliable indicator of reality than observed reality ;-)

In this barrage of how important spelling is, she did make a number of
spelling errors. It was just an irony that someone pointed out to her.

So, no, don't worry about pointing out spelling errors. They'll learn in
their own time. :-) Just help them how ever they want to be helped.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 6:34:43 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< Have you considered that by pointing out her spelling/word choice
mistake you just reinforced her belief that it is important? >>

I never said I didn't think it was important.
What I said (and half a dozen others did too) is that it can be learned
without using her one specific spelling method, and can be learned without
using ANY "spelling method."

Sandra

Hazy_lilly

--- Katedavislawfirm@... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/29/2002 9:26:06 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> hazy_lilly@... writes:
>
>
> > I am not sure were the conversation started but I
> am
> > going to jump in. Is spelling important? I
> thought
> > as unschoolers we did not emphasize in spelling
> > corrections in our children's writting. I
> certainly
> > don't. Now I am wondering if I am suppose to.
> Most of
> > the literature i read on spelling including school
> > type literature speaks about not correcting
> grammer
> > and spelling. They will naturally spell well in
> the
> > end. Every time they write children will spell
> better.
> > Every time we point out the errors we block their
> > creativity and lower their trust in the writing
> > process. Am I wrong? Is it just by preference of
> > choice?
> >
> > Hazel
> >
> > Excuse the typos
> >
>
> I, for one, believe that spelling is important.
> Presentation can mean the
> difference between being understood and being
> misunderstood, or, worse, being
> dismissed out of hand without any effort at
> understanding.
>
> I do not believe that children "will naturally spell
> well in the end" if the
> child has not chosen to focus on spelling at some
> point in time. Spelling,
> in my opinion, is counter-intuitive.
>
> And, although I very strongly believe that spelling
> is important, I generally
> try to look past spelling, and to read for content.
> Words in a properly
> spelled sentence are easier to read than are words
> in an improperly spelled
> sentence. Similarly, diction, accent, and
> intonation are also important in
> spoken language. A speaker delivering a most
> important speech might lose
> many in the audience if the spoken words are
> monotonous, or slurred. It is
> my opinion that if one really desires to be heard or
> understood, then one
> should at least attempt to present the materials in
> a "proper" manner (that
> is, "properly spelled").
>
> Fur exsample, if i were to tryto make my point about
> spilling by misspleelin
> words, then most people reading the sentence would,
> I think, dismiss the idea
> as hogwash, or goobeldygock. And I would have just
> wasted my time trying to
> make a point that nobody even considered as a result
> of the poor
> presentation.
>
> In any event, I have "strewn" spellers throughout
> the bookshelves in my home,
> and hope that my children determine for themselves
> at some point in time that
> spelling well is a good idea.
>
> Kate Davis


I agree that proper spelling is nescessary for
documents, speeches, and when proving a point. I was
referring to when children are just starting to learn
to write.
I thought children learn to spell and use grammer
from reading. In your opnion do you feel that proper
spelling and should start from the beggining.

Hazel
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
"When we make a choice we change the future" Deepak Chopra

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

Hazy_lilly

--- Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
> on 4/29/02 9:14 AM, Hazy_lilly at
> hazy_lilly@... wrote:
>
> > I am not sure were the conversation started but I
> am
> > going to jump in. Is spelling important? I
> thought
> > as unschoolers we did not emphasize in spelling
> > corrections in our children's writting. I
> certainly
> > don't. Now I am wondering if I am suppose to.
> Most of
> > the literature i read on spelling including school
> > type literature speaks about not correcting
> grammer
> > and spelling. They will naturally spell well in
> the
> > end. Every time they write children will spell
> better.
> > Every time we point out the errors we block their
> > creativity and lower their trust in the writing
> > process. Am I wrong? Is it just by preference of
> > choice?
>
> This was a special instance. The poster was asking
> how unschooled kids could
> possibly learn to spell because English wasn't
> regular so kids obviously
> needed the rules explicitly taught. She insisted
> there wasn't any way the
> kids could possibly figure them out on their own.
> And she had all sorts of
> studies that proved her point and a program she
> used. She couldn't
> understand why anyone wouldn't just use it rather
> than leaving things to
> chance that couldn't possibly happen anyway.
>
> We gave her plenty of examples of how it worked with
> our kids, pointing out
> that inventive spelling was a stage they go through
> and they do figure out
> the rules unconsciously even without being able
> recite them. But studies are
> obviously are a more reliable indicator of reality
> than observed reality ;-)
>
> In this barrage of how important spelling is, she
> did make a number of
> spelling errors. It was just an irony that someone
> pointed out to her.
>
> So, no, don't worry about pointing out spelling
> errors. They'll learn in
> their own time. :-) Just help them how ever they
> want to be helped.
>
> Joyce


Ok, thank you was starting to get confused.

Hazel
>
>


=====
"When we make a choice we change the future" Deepak Chopra

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 8:28:58 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< In this barrage of how important spelling is, she did make a number of
spelling errors. >>

It was more than just how important spelling was--it was a continuing
assertion that there were rules to cover all the words, and we needed
seriously to get those rules into our children. The mistakes she made were
simple words, too--and things readers can recognize from seeing them
repeatedly. They were things my own kids with never a spelling lesson could
have spelled (not Holly, maybe, but the boys could have).

Because her posts were a steady stream of challenging our ignorance while
trying to promote her own narrow view of the only one way, and I read every
single word of her posts, it was my personal choice (not a list policy, not
the work of a committee) to ask her questions to draw out how much she might
know about the history of those spellings (none that she ever admitted to),
and to point out that her rules might not be working. I think I noted three
of her errors, over two posts.

I believe she left the list rather than defend her claims anyway.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 10:56:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hazy_lilly@... writes:


> I agree that proper spelling is nescessary for
> documents, speeches, and when proving a point. I was
> referring to when children are just starting to learn
> to write.
> I thought children learn to spell and use grammer
> from reading. In your opnion do you feel that proper
> spelling and should start from the beggining.
>
> Hazel
>

No.

Kate Davis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 4/29/02 9:45 AM, Katedavislawfirm@... at Katedavislawfirm@...
wrote:

> Words in a properly
> spelled sentence are easier to read than are words in an improperly spelled
> sentence.

And I think this is one of those things that's hard for teachers of spelling
to grasp. That someone would actually observe misspelling and come to the
conclusion that if they want to avoid confusing people that using standard
spelling is a good idea. That kids would actually care about how well
someone is able to read what they write.

But of course in school, the kids often don't care, neither about how well
they're communicating or what they're communicating. So it's presupposed
that lack of interest is inherent in the kids, not a product of school.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 6:41:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> My comment goes back to a thread from a day or two ago. Someone was
> saying that spelling was important and happened to misspell something
> in the post. Someone else pointed it out saying that it's only to be
> expected that if you misspell a word in a post about spelling you
> should be corrected.
> Today, it occurred to me, that by doing that, the second poster
> probably reinforced the first poster's belief that spelling is
> important, unintentionally, but in a way that probably hit home
> nonetheless.

Well - except the discussion wasn't about whether or not spelling was
important - it was about whether or not kids must absolutely be taught some
full set of "spelling rules" - in a formal way - in order to become good
spellers.

The poster was arguing that good spelling came from knowing all those
spelling rules, but she, herself, had misspellings (not typos) in her post.
So pointing that out was a way of pointing out that knowing all those
spelling rules was NOT going to guarantee good spelling.

--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 6:55:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Katedavislawfirm@... writes:


> I do not believe that children "will naturally spell well in the end" if the
>
> child has not chosen to focus on spelling at some point in time. Spelling,
>
> in my opinion, is counter-intuitive.

So - what do you think needs to happen?

My 14 and 17 yo's spell extremely well. They have extensive vocabularies and
seldom, if ever, misspell a word. Neither has ever focussed on spelling - it
just came naturally to them.

My 11 yo does not spell well, yet. Maybe she will, naturally, or maybe she
won't. But I doubt that any sort of "spelling lessons" are going to do her
much good unless SHE decides that that is something of great interest to her.

--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 2:04:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
PSoroosh@... writes:


> In a message dated 4/29/2002 6:55:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> Katedavislawfirm@... writes:
>
>
> > I do not believe that children "will naturally spell well in the end" if
> the
> >
> > child has not chosen to focus on spelling at some point in time.
> Spelling,
> >
> > in my opinion, is counter-intuitive.
>
> So - what do you think needs to happen?
>
> My 14 and 17 yo's spell extremely well. They have extensive vocabularies
> and
> seldom, if ever, misspell a word. Neither has ever focussed on spelling -
> it
> just came naturally to them.
>
> My 11 yo does not spell well, yet. Maybe she will, naturally, or maybe she
> won't. But I doubt that any sort of "spelling lessons" are going to do her
> much good unless SHE decides that that is something of great interest to
> her.
>
> --pamS
> Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or
> seem
> harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what
> feels
> uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
>

In response to the question "what do [I] think needs to happen," please be
advised that I have no opinion one way or the other. Although I think that
spelling is important, and that it is a learned ability, I am not concerned
about whether anyone in particular learns or does not learn how to spell.

Kate Davis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]