Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Kids Asking For School / WAS New question
John Julian
We have had the same challenge here. We live in one of those Illinois neighborhoods with no fences - so there are like twenty backyards connecting - 90% of those with kids who are our children's ages (11, 9, 3).
It is wonderful that they have this park environment so close to home, and within view of many caring parents, but it is also extremely challenging with regards to homeschooling & unschooling.
Gino commented once that he wished he was learning more at home like he did in school. This made no sense to me - he hated school - tantrummed all the time about it - before school / after school / during school. A friend suggested the "prisoner missing prison" idea. It made a lot of sense as he was in a "special" school that rewarded or consequenced behaviors every 5 minutes with a behavioral assessment chart ("e" for excellent, "s","n", etc.). We pulled him out in May of 2001, so we're coming up on one year - and this may still be a deschooling issue - especially since his "school" experiences were so extreme (behavioral hospital and school).
Recently, the kids asked if they could go back to school. After recovering from my shock (and feeling rejected and hurt - yes, unfortunately I took it personal!!), I decided to probe a little deeper.
It turns out that Gino (9) didn't like waiting all day for his friends to come home at 4:00. Solution : We talked about what actually occurs during the course of a typical "school" day. He wasn't convinced and felt that he could, and wanted to try it. I suggested trying a "school type" day at home to see how it would feel, and he agreed. Literally ten minutes into the "school" day, he was complaining about the simple Math worksheet I gave him for "Math" time. I explained that in school, you do not have a choice (as he well knows from his past school experiences). That led to pounding on the floor, throwing the workbook, and shouting, "I don't want to do this - I want to do what I want to do!".
I'm thinking, "YES Exactly!!", but I showed some restraint, said nothing, and he went off to play with his hot wheels. Later he came back and we were able to talk. We have scheduled more "get togethers" with other homeschoolers during the day, to try and satisfy his need to hang out with friends before 4:00 !
I do feel that he came away from the experience with a negative though - that he can't "make it" in school. A sort of "everybody else can do it but I can't" mentality about the whole thing. Perhaps there is a better way to handle these situations when they arise??
For my daughter Sabra (10, almost 11), it turns out that she thought she was homeschooling because she wasn't smart enough to succeed in school. Of course she was pleased as punch when dh and I fell out of our chairs exclaiming, "Sabra, you're not in school because you're TOO smart and precious to be there!!!" And believe me, she has been told this many times. I think it may be a general worry that comes up from time to time that has more to do with not being like "everyone else". Maybe they experience some of the same insecurities / doubts that I do from time to time - in which case I need to get my thing together and be clear on my own views.
One thing (of many) my children taught me is that I need to be talking, talking, and talking some more about these ideas, and all sorts of others! We talk all the time - but I was still surprised to find out what kind of ideas were lurking in their heads.
Shelly
It is wonderful that they have this park environment so close to home, and within view of many caring parents, but it is also extremely challenging with regards to homeschooling & unschooling.
Gino commented once that he wished he was learning more at home like he did in school. This made no sense to me - he hated school - tantrummed all the time about it - before school / after school / during school. A friend suggested the "prisoner missing prison" idea. It made a lot of sense as he was in a "special" school that rewarded or consequenced behaviors every 5 minutes with a behavioral assessment chart ("e" for excellent, "s","n", etc.). We pulled him out in May of 2001, so we're coming up on one year - and this may still be a deschooling issue - especially since his "school" experiences were so extreme (behavioral hospital and school).
Recently, the kids asked if they could go back to school. After recovering from my shock (and feeling rejected and hurt - yes, unfortunately I took it personal!!), I decided to probe a little deeper.
It turns out that Gino (9) didn't like waiting all day for his friends to come home at 4:00. Solution : We talked about what actually occurs during the course of a typical "school" day. He wasn't convinced and felt that he could, and wanted to try it. I suggested trying a "school type" day at home to see how it would feel, and he agreed. Literally ten minutes into the "school" day, he was complaining about the simple Math worksheet I gave him for "Math" time. I explained that in school, you do not have a choice (as he well knows from his past school experiences). That led to pounding on the floor, throwing the workbook, and shouting, "I don't want to do this - I want to do what I want to do!".
I'm thinking, "YES Exactly!!", but I showed some restraint, said nothing, and he went off to play with his hot wheels. Later he came back and we were able to talk. We have scheduled more "get togethers" with other homeschoolers during the day, to try and satisfy his need to hang out with friends before 4:00 !
I do feel that he came away from the experience with a negative though - that he can't "make it" in school. A sort of "everybody else can do it but I can't" mentality about the whole thing. Perhaps there is a better way to handle these situations when they arise??
For my daughter Sabra (10, almost 11), it turns out that she thought she was homeschooling because she wasn't smart enough to succeed in school. Of course she was pleased as punch when dh and I fell out of our chairs exclaiming, "Sabra, you're not in school because you're TOO smart and precious to be there!!!" And believe me, she has been told this many times. I think it may be a general worry that comes up from time to time that has more to do with not being like "everyone else". Maybe they experience some of the same insecurities / doubts that I do from time to time - in which case I need to get my thing together and be clear on my own views.
One thing (of many) my children taught me is that I need to be talking, talking, and talking some more about these ideas, and all sorts of others! We talk all the time - but I was still surprised to find out what kind of ideas were lurking in their heads.
Shelly
----- Original Message -----
From: bonknit@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:54 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] New question
Hi all, I am new here, have been lurking for a few days and reading the
recent discussions.
My question is How do you deal with others as you move towards an
unschooling lifestyle? How about when it's the kids themselves that keep
telling you they are not learning anything when you know they are? My kids
had previously been in school and play with kids who go to school so I know
where some of the flack comes from but it is still so hard to deal with. It
makes me feel phony when I try to explain to them how them doing this or that
is math or history, etc.
Please also help me to find ways to move dh along. BTW, my kids are 11
and 14, both boys.
Laura
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=For my daughter Sabra (10, almost 11), it turns out that she thought she was
homeschooling because she wasn't smart enough to succeed in school.=
Marty, who is now 13, said something like that when he was eight or so.
Neighbor-kids were talking to him, and he came home sad. He didn't want to
tell me what they were saying, but it was sometime later (months) that he
admitted that he had thought maybe he was being kept home because he was
somehow not smart enough to go to school.
So my solution is NEVER LET THEM PLAY WITH THE NEIGHBORS.
<LOL!>
Not really, but sometimes I think the get more harm than good from playing
with some kids.
Sandra
homeschooling because she wasn't smart enough to succeed in school.=
Marty, who is now 13, said something like that when he was eight or so.
Neighbor-kids were talking to him, and he came home sad. He didn't want to
tell me what they were saying, but it was sometime later (months) that he
admitted that he had thought maybe he was being kept home because he was
somehow not smart enough to go to school.
So my solution is NEVER LET THEM PLAY WITH THE NEIGHBORS.
<LOL!>
Not really, but sometimes I think the get more harm than good from playing
with some kids.
Sandra
John Julian
<So my solution is NEVER LET THEM PLAY WITH THE NEIGHBORS.
<LOL!>
Not really, but sometimes I think the get more harm than good from playing
with some kids.
Sandra>
At a recent hs support group meeting, the topic was "socializing w/ non-homeschoolers". One member actually schedules any activities which her kids want to participate in during the "after-school" hours, to avoid extended playtimes w/ the neighborhood kids!
Sounds seriously tempting!
Sandra, may I ask - what did you tell Marty? and Did it work?
Thanks!
Shelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<LOL!>
Not really, but sometimes I think the get more harm than good from playing
with some kids.
Sandra>
At a recent hs support group meeting, the topic was "socializing w/ non-homeschoolers". One member actually schedules any activities which her kids want to participate in during the "after-school" hours, to avoid extended playtimes w/ the neighborhood kids!
Sounds seriously tempting!
Sandra, may I ask - what did you tell Marty? and Did it work?
Thanks!
Shelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Kidlet #5's answer to a ps kid that was giving him a ration really made me
want to jump up and down and screaming of YAHOO!!!
"Yeah right. You're always complaining you're bored, you hate the teachers,
you have too much homework! You sit in a stuffy old school all day with
someone telling you what to fill your brain with. I go where ever I want,
I'm not bored, I'm having fun, I don't have any homework and I fill my brain
with what I want in my brain! So who's the dumb one here?"
Lynda
want to jump up and down and screaming of YAHOO!!!
"Yeah right. You're always complaining you're bored, you hate the teachers,
you have too much homework! You sit in a stuffy old school all day with
someone telling you what to fill your brain with. I go where ever I want,
I'm not bored, I'm having fun, I don't have any homework and I fill my brain
with what I want in my brain! So who's the dumb one here?"
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Kids Asking For School / WAS New question
> =For my daughter Sabra (10, almost 11), it turns out that she thought she
was
> homeschooling because she wasn't smart enough to succeed in school.=
>
> Marty, who is now 13, said something like that when he was eight or so.
> Neighbor-kids were talking to him, and he came home sad. He didn't want
to
> tell me what they were saying, but it was sometime later (months) that he
> admitted that he had thought maybe he was being kept home because he was
> somehow not smart enough to go to school.
>
> So my solution is NEVER LET THEM PLAY WITH THE NEIGHBORS.
>
> <LOL!>
> Not really, but sometimes I think the get more harm than good from playing
> with some kids.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
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> http://www.unschooling.com
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>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/22/02 4:08:12 PM, jsjulian@... writes:
<< Sandra, may I ask - what did you tell Marty? and Did it work? >>
I hugged him and nearly cried.
I said I had NO idea he thought that, and that I didn't think it was a good
idea to tell kids they were really smart, but that there were LOTS of things
he knew that [same neighbors by name] didn't, like... and I started listing
his strengths. And his sweetness. And his kindness to even his rude friends.
I don't think he was convinced right at first, but that was also about the
time he started knowing more unschooled kids his age, so the combination of
my awareness (and being more careful about noting things that would reassure
him, in subtle ways) and seeing how these other non-schooled kids were made
him much more confident.
Sandra
<< Sandra, may I ask - what did you tell Marty? and Did it work? >>
I hugged him and nearly cried.
I said I had NO idea he thought that, and that I didn't think it was a good
idea to tell kids they were really smart, but that there were LOTS of things
he knew that [same neighbors by name] didn't, like... and I started listing
his strengths. And his sweetness. And his kindness to even his rude friends.
I don't think he was convinced right at first, but that was also about the
time he started knowing more unschooled kids his age, so the combination of
my awareness (and being more careful about noting things that would reassure
him, in subtle ways) and seeing how these other non-schooled kids were made
him much more confident.
Sandra
Camille Bauer
<< Sandra, may I ask - what did you tell Marty? and Did it work? >>
I hugged him and nearly cried.>>
Can I ask what you might have said, say he was MUCH younger :) DS thinks school is for playing with friends, and riding a big yellow bus....
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I hugged him and nearly cried.>>
Can I ask what you might have said, say he was MUCH younger :) DS thinks school is for playing with friends, and riding a big yellow bus....
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Wellll, unpopular opinion here. Guess it is because we actually believe in
trusting our kids. Youngest kidlet wanted to go to school because all her
little friends were going and she saw all the "fun" kids had in school on
television. Plus, they have a school fair thingy at the mall and make out
like k is all about fun and playing.
We had a long talk about how restrictive it was and how we didn't really
think it would be a good idea but she asked if she couldn't try it. So we
said fine. then we had another long talk about how she didn't have to stay
if she didn't want to and that we'd rather have her home living life and
enjoying herself than going to ps.
She went for a few weeks. We were in hysterics about it but made sure she
didn't see us laughing. If we asked if she still wanted to go and give her
the it isn't quitting speech, she say, "No, I have to give it a chance."
Then she came home one day mad as a wet hen!!! When we got home she
stompted off, threw her "school" clothes in the garbage (she changed her
mind later saying it wasn't their fault <g>) and said, "I'm not going back.
I tried but they lied." Later we asked what she meant about them lying.
She said they tell you going to school is fun and it isn't, "They make you
sit on the floor and not move!" "They make you wear a coat even if you
aren't cold!" "Everybody has to do the same thing and they thinks we're
babies." The ultimate sin was to treat her like a baby, guess that comes
from being the baby.
Now when someone brings up school, you'll get a lecture about not putting
children in "kiddy prison." She also makes an "x" with her fingers when we
drive by the school to ward off the "evil."
Knowing this child, if we had said "no," or tried to distract her, she'd
have boiled away under the surface and it would have only gotten worse.
Instead, we trusted her to know what she wanted and trusted her to say
"when."
Lynda
trusting our kids. Youngest kidlet wanted to go to school because all her
little friends were going and she saw all the "fun" kids had in school on
television. Plus, they have a school fair thingy at the mall and make out
like k is all about fun and playing.
We had a long talk about how restrictive it was and how we didn't really
think it would be a good idea but she asked if she couldn't try it. So we
said fine. then we had another long talk about how she didn't have to stay
if she didn't want to and that we'd rather have her home living life and
enjoying herself than going to ps.
She went for a few weeks. We were in hysterics about it but made sure she
didn't see us laughing. If we asked if she still wanted to go and give her
the it isn't quitting speech, she say, "No, I have to give it a chance."
Then she came home one day mad as a wet hen!!! When we got home she
stompted off, threw her "school" clothes in the garbage (she changed her
mind later saying it wasn't their fault <g>) and said, "I'm not going back.
I tried but they lied." Later we asked what she meant about them lying.
She said they tell you going to school is fun and it isn't, "They make you
sit on the floor and not move!" "They make you wear a coat even if you
aren't cold!" "Everybody has to do the same thing and they thinks we're
babies." The ultimate sin was to treat her like a baby, guess that comes
from being the baby.
Now when someone brings up school, you'll get a lecture about not putting
children in "kiddy prison." She also makes an "x" with her fingers when we
drive by the school to ward off the "evil."
Knowing this child, if we had said "no," or tried to distract her, she'd
have boiled away under the surface and it would have only gotten worse.
Instead, we trusted her to know what she wanted and trusted her to say
"when."
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Camille Bauer" <goddessofwisdom2@...>
To: "Unschooling_dotcom" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Kids Asking For School / WAS New question
> << Sandra, may I ask - what did you tell Marty? and Did it work? >>
>
> I hugged him and nearly cried.>>
>
> Can I ask what you might have said, say he was MUCH younger :) DS thinks
school is for playing with friends, and riding a big yellow bus....
>
> CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/22/02 9:22:17 PM, goddessofwisdom2@... writes:
<< Can I ask what you might have said, say he was MUCH younger :) DS thinks
school is for playing with friends, and riding a big yellow bus.... >>
Holly used to want to go to school, before she was old enough. I was willing
to let her, but we talked about it pretty regularly.
What she wanted was to go because her friend across the street went. But
they would not have been in the same grade. So whenever we'd pass an
elementary during school hours, I would show her that only SOME of the kids
were out to play at any one time, and they weren't supposed to play with kids
in other grades, or sometimes even in other classes. And that the
kindergarten kids never were mixed in with first graders.
I also told her that in school the other kids will tease each other a lot for
playing with kids in earlier grades, and that I was afraid Kellee wouldn't be
as nice to Holly in school, even if she had a chance, as she was when they
played at each other's houses.
As evidence of that, I told her to notice how often kids in school ask new
kids they meet "What grade are you in?" She started noting that, and we
would discuss it. Because my boys would say "I'm not in a grade," or "I
don't go to school," the other kids had to decide based solely on interest,
merit, "playability," or personality! They weren't used to that, really.
They seemed more used to deciding whether to play based on that answer and
then all that was left was to determine dominance.
She started to see that for herself, and it helped.
She still isn't a fluent reader at ten, but she was precocious about
interpersonal stuff, and understands now things about parenting, sibling
relations, dynamics between friends that I didn't figure out until I was
grown. I think it's mostly because I was not allowed in and out of real
families and mixed-age groups, because.... I was limited to kids in my own
grade, largely. And when I visited their families, I was treated as "a
fourth grader" or whatever I happened to "BE" at the time.
Sandra
<< Can I ask what you might have said, say he was MUCH younger :) DS thinks
school is for playing with friends, and riding a big yellow bus.... >>
Holly used to want to go to school, before she was old enough. I was willing
to let her, but we talked about it pretty regularly.
What she wanted was to go because her friend across the street went. But
they would not have been in the same grade. So whenever we'd pass an
elementary during school hours, I would show her that only SOME of the kids
were out to play at any one time, and they weren't supposed to play with kids
in other grades, or sometimes even in other classes. And that the
kindergarten kids never were mixed in with first graders.
I also told her that in school the other kids will tease each other a lot for
playing with kids in earlier grades, and that I was afraid Kellee wouldn't be
as nice to Holly in school, even if she had a chance, as she was when they
played at each other's houses.
As evidence of that, I told her to notice how often kids in school ask new
kids they meet "What grade are you in?" She started noting that, and we
would discuss it. Because my boys would say "I'm not in a grade," or "I
don't go to school," the other kids had to decide based solely on interest,
merit, "playability," or personality! They weren't used to that, really.
They seemed more used to deciding whether to play based on that answer and
then all that was left was to determine dominance.
She started to see that for herself, and it helped.
She still isn't a fluent reader at ten, but she was precocious about
interpersonal stuff, and understands now things about parenting, sibling
relations, dynamics between friends that I didn't figure out until I was
grown. I think it's mostly because I was not allowed in and out of real
families and mixed-age groups, because.... I was limited to kids in my own
grade, largely. And when I visited their families, I was treated as "a
fourth grader" or whatever I happened to "BE" at the time.
Sandra
John Julian
Thanks, Sandra
Sounds similar to our reaction. I like the suggestion to concentrate on our kids' strengths, rather than just telling them they're "smarter". Probably a quick defensive reaction for my daughter on my part!
Shelly
I hugged him and nearly cried.
I said I had NO idea he thought that, and that I didn't think it was a good
idea to tell kids they were really smart, but that there were LOTS of things
he knew that [same neighbors by name] didn't, like... and I started listing
his strengths. And his sweetness. And his kindness to even his rude friends.
I don't think he was convinced right at first, but that was also about the
time he started knowing more unschooled kids his age, so the combination of
my awareness (and being more careful about noting things that would reassure
him, in subtle ways) and seeing how these other non-schooled kids were made
him much more confident.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sounds similar to our reaction. I like the suggestion to concentrate on our kids' strengths, rather than just telling them they're "smarter". Probably a quick defensive reaction for my daughter on my part!
Shelly
I hugged him and nearly cried.
I said I had NO idea he thought that, and that I didn't think it was a good
idea to tell kids they were really smart, but that there were LOTS of things
he knew that [same neighbors by name] didn't, like... and I started listing
his strengths. And his sweetness. And his kindness to even his rude friends.
I don't think he was convinced right at first, but that was also about the
time he started knowing more unschooled kids his age, so the combination of
my awareness (and being more careful about noting things that would reassure
him, in subtle ways) and seeing how these other non-schooled kids were made
him much more confident.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]