Language, terminology and thought
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/22/02 8:38:34 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
<< I guess the problem I have with this is that vocabulary does not
influence my thinking much anymore. And I'm encouraging my kids to
learn that words are words. For example, we might be having roast for
dinner or we might be having a hunk of dead cow. Either way, it's the
same thing. >>
Being called "girl" isn't the same as being called a woman, when the woman is
an engineer, or a secretary. When men call women "girls" they do mean
something by it, and it does color and affect the way they're treated.
Being called "African American" isn't quite the same as "the 'n' word."
Words are more powerful than most people realize.
When a family discussed their children's learning in terms of who taught them
what, it shows they think thinks need to be taught. There are truly young
mothers who think they "taught" their children to walk, or to speak.
So until people can change the terminology they use, they can't really change
mindsets. If a homeschooling family with a bought curriculum says "my son is
in 8th grade," that makes sense in their context. If an unschooler says "I'm
unschooling an 8th grader," that says to me that they are still living in the
shadow of the school.
No unschooled child is an any-"grader," if they're living an ungraded life of
full-time learning.
Sandra
<< I guess the problem I have with this is that vocabulary does not
influence my thinking much anymore. And I'm encouraging my kids to
learn that words are words. For example, we might be having roast for
dinner or we might be having a hunk of dead cow. Either way, it's the
same thing. >>
Being called "girl" isn't the same as being called a woman, when the woman is
an engineer, or a secretary. When men call women "girls" they do mean
something by it, and it does color and affect the way they're treated.
Being called "African American" isn't quite the same as "the 'n' word."
Words are more powerful than most people realize.
When a family discussed their children's learning in terms of who taught them
what, it shows they think thinks need to be taught. There are truly young
mothers who think they "taught" their children to walk, or to speak.
So until people can change the terminology they use, they can't really change
mindsets. If a homeschooling family with a bought curriculum says "my son is
in 8th grade," that makes sense in their context. If an unschooler says "I'm
unschooling an 8th grader," that says to me that they are still living in the
shadow of the school.
No unschooled child is an any-"grader," if they're living an ungraded life of
full-time learning.
Sandra
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Well, heck, when I worked at the hotel with the truck drivers, I was
the *girl* behind the counter, or the *girl* up front. But they all
respected me just the same. Actually, maybe moreso, because I didn't
ask them to change their vocabulary to meet my expectations but I
could converse with them about a variety of subjects.
And despite whet the sexist a-hole who owned the second hotel I worked
at thought I was not in danger of being raped because I could carry on
a conversation with a truck driver.
Bridget
>woman is
> Being called "girl" isn't the same as being called a woman, when the
> an engineer, or a secretary. When men call women "girls" they domean
> something by it, and it does color and affect the way they'retreated.
Well, heck, when I worked at the hotel with the truck drivers, I was
the *girl* behind the counter, or the *girl* up front. But they all
respected me just the same. Actually, maybe moreso, because I didn't
ask them to change their vocabulary to meet my expectations but I
could converse with them about a variety of subjects.
And despite whet the sexist a-hole who owned the second hotel I worked
at thought I was not in danger of being raped because I could carry on
a conversation with a truck driver.
Bridget
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/22/2002 11:49:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> living in theGreat name for a book, Sandra.
> shadow of the school.
>
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/22/2002 3:06:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
determined that unschooling list-reading may be hazardous to your peace of
mind." <G>
or maybe:
"Some of the advice you get here might challenge you, shock you, disturb you,
or seem harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and
what feels uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to
hear. If you don't like the way someone says something, ignore it. If you
disagree with the content of what they say, offer your own alternative
ideas."
pamS
This post is intended to contribute to us understanding unschooling better or
to building a sense of community.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> I don't think we should be second guessing people on what advice they give.How about saying something like this - "Warning: the Unschooling General has
> As long as it's unschooling advice, then the format and style is up to
> them.
> I think perhaps we need a way of informing new people of the different
> varieties the advice can come in and tell them they're free to pick and
> choose.
determined that unschooling list-reading may be hazardous to your peace of
mind." <G>
or maybe:
"Some of the advice you get here might challenge you, shock you, disturb you,
or seem harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and
what feels uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to
hear. If you don't like the way someone says something, ignore it. If you
disagree with the content of what they say, offer your own alternative
ideas."
pamS
This post is intended to contribute to us understanding unschooling better or
to building a sense of community.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
"Some of the advice you get here might challenge you, shock you, disturb
you,
or seem harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and
what feels uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to
hear. If you don't like the way someone says something, ignore it. If you
disagree with the content of what they say, offer your own alternative
ideas."
I think this is an excellent sentence (well, I guess it's really a
paragraph) It really can be hard to "hear" such a radically different way of
thinking. I don't think I was able to hear alot of unschooling ideas when I
first started learning about it and I was sure it was right for us!
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
you,
or seem harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and
what feels uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to
hear. If you don't like the way someone says something, ignore it. If you
disagree with the content of what they say, offer your own alternative
ideas."
I think this is an excellent sentence (well, I guess it's really a
paragraph) It really can be hard to "hear" such a radically different way of
thinking. I don't think I was able to hear alot of unschooling ideas when I
first started learning about it and I was sure it was right for us!
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/22/02 4:06:12 PM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< I think perhaps we need a way of informing new people of the different
varieties the advice can come in and tell them they're free to pick and
choose. >>
Don't all adults already know that?
I don't think we should baby new unschoolers. If they can't take a
discussion about unschooling, how will they take the pressure from neighbors
and other homeschoolers? Honestly, if people are too sensitive to discuss
what they want to do, they're not strong enough to do it.
Sandra
<< I think perhaps we need a way of informing new people of the different
varieties the advice can come in and tell them they're free to pick and
choose. >>
Don't all adults already know that?
I don't think we should baby new unschoolers. If they can't take a
discussion about unschooling, how will they take the pressure from neighbors
and other homeschoolers? Honestly, if people are too sensitive to discuss
what they want to do, they're not strong enough to do it.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/02 7:45:35 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
<< And a lot of my feeling on this may come from the fact that I've never
had some big unschooling epiphany. >>
It could still happen, though.
The reason "lessons" is an indicator (when the word is used by someone
discussing unschooling) is that lessons are systematic, and given to one
person by another person. When it is deeply understood that learning
doesn't have to be systematic, and that learning happens inside the learner,
then the word "lessons" is like a meatball in the vegetarian stew. It just
doesn't fit, and it messes up the purity of unschooling.
Kirby doesn't say "I'm taking karate lessons," he says "I go to Shorin Ryu"
or "I'm a green belt at Ed Erler's school" or something. He goes to White
Crane seminars whenever they're held, but he's not "taking White Crane
lessons." He's learning the forms, yes. But he's learning when it's
available because he wants to go somewhere on a special day and learn it.
It's not the same as lessons.
Those who are black belts at that school refer to their sessions as
"workouts," not "lessons."
<<It's just in my nature I guess and
circumstances forced that out of me early into our homeschooling when
I WAS trying to be more of a structured homeschooler. Kind of like
someone who never really smoked (maybe tried it in high school and
didn't like it) is usually much less vehement on the subject than
someone who quit after smoking for many years.>>
Someone who has never really fully unschooled wouldn't be in either category,
though. Just not doing school does not equal confidently and efficiently
unschooling.
For some unschooling comes gradually and for some it comer going to two or
three unschooling conferences doesn't make one an unschooler. Only
unschooling can do that.
Sandra
<< And a lot of my feeling on this may come from the fact that I've never
had some big unschooling epiphany. >>
It could still happen, though.
The reason "lessons" is an indicator (when the word is used by someone
discussing unschooling) is that lessons are systematic, and given to one
person by another person. When it is deeply understood that learning
doesn't have to be systematic, and that learning happens inside the learner,
then the word "lessons" is like a meatball in the vegetarian stew. It just
doesn't fit, and it messes up the purity of unschooling.
Kirby doesn't say "I'm taking karate lessons," he says "I go to Shorin Ryu"
or "I'm a green belt at Ed Erler's school" or something. He goes to White
Crane seminars whenever they're held, but he's not "taking White Crane
lessons." He's learning the forms, yes. But he's learning when it's
available because he wants to go somewhere on a special day and learn it.
It's not the same as lessons.
Those who are black belts at that school refer to their sessions as
"workouts," not "lessons."
<<It's just in my nature I guess and
circumstances forced that out of me early into our homeschooling when
I WAS trying to be more of a structured homeschooler. Kind of like
someone who never really smoked (maybe tried it in high school and
didn't like it) is usually much less vehement on the subject than
someone who quit after smoking for many years.>>
Someone who has never really fully unschooled wouldn't be in either category,
though. Just not doing school does not equal confidently and efficiently
unschooling.
For some unschooling comes gradually and for some it comer going to two or
three unschooling conferences doesn't make one an unschooler. Only
unschooling can do that.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/02 7:45:35 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
<< No I don't think anyone is scanning just for buzzwords to attack. But
I do think that some people allow their own negative impression of
certain words to color their posts and maybe they need to just sit
back and examine why that is. >>
My negative impression of "lessons" comes from years of having them inflicted
on me, and inflicting them on others when I taught. And our language has
some bad connotations to add. "Maybe now you've learned your lesson," and
"Let THAT be a lesson to you!" are not things said with tender love.
<<You know, when you get right down to
it, last year, I was told to look at my posts in a certain light and I
did and it made me change the way I talked about something because I
realized I wasn't being clear enough about part of it. >>
It's not just being clear in what is communicated to others. That's very
important. But changing terminology will make it clear to the person who is
writing, talking, thinking. A conscious change from "teaching" to "learning"
will create a shift which will make a profound difference.
If two people start at the same point and take trajectories just five degrees
apart, after a mile they'll be quite a long way from one another. So if
something seems too insignificant to consider, it might just be a few degrees
from what the person is already thinking or doing, but a year or two they'll
be FAR from where they would have been without that slight change of
trajectory.
Sandra
<< No I don't think anyone is scanning just for buzzwords to attack. But
I do think that some people allow their own negative impression of
certain words to color their posts and maybe they need to just sit
back and examine why that is. >>
My negative impression of "lessons" comes from years of having them inflicted
on me, and inflicting them on others when I taught. And our language has
some bad connotations to add. "Maybe now you've learned your lesson," and
"Let THAT be a lesson to you!" are not things said with tender love.
<<You know, when you get right down to
it, last year, I was told to look at my posts in a certain light and I
did and it made me change the way I talked about something because I
realized I wasn't being clear enough about part of it. >>
It's not just being clear in what is communicated to others. That's very
important. But changing terminology will make it clear to the person who is
writing, talking, thinking. A conscious change from "teaching" to "learning"
will create a shift which will make a profound difference.
If two people start at the same point and take trajectories just five degrees
apart, after a mile they'll be quite a long way from one another. So if
something seems too insignificant to consider, it might just be a few degrees
from what the person is already thinking or doing, but a year or two they'll
be FAR from where they would have been without that slight change of
trajectory.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/02 1:19:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My negative impression of "lessons" comes from years of having them
inflicted
on me, and inflicting them on others when I taught. And our language has
some bad connotations to add. "Maybe now you've learned your lesson," and
"Let THAT be a lesson to you!" are not things said with tender love. >>
Same here.
During the course of this latest round of debates, I opened up my
dictionary...just to see what the "official" definition was.
It's a Tormont Webster version and here's a couple of the definitions:
Lesson: 1. something to be learned (this to me does not imply the method in
which most unschoolers self teach) 2.a A period of instruction: a class: a
tennis lesson (occasionally useful when a child actually WANTS it)
Ah, but then we get to number 4. A reprimand or punishment.
hmmm......too many times I've heard the "that should teach him a lesson".....
I really think that many of us may use terminology different...we may indeed
have experiences that "color" our use or acceptance of words.
This still does not explain nor does it condone the behavior of those that
consistently, and persistently deride the posts/posters that point away from
lesson oriented thinking and towards a life of exploring freely, the things
that interest us.
There are experienced unschoolers here saying "get outside the box, look how
many ways there are to learn things"
without subject boxes, without lessons, without artificial time constraints.
It's quite beautiful.
Until someone comes along and says mean things about the information given.
I have read and re-read many of these posts and this is the pattern I've
seen...
A person claiming to not understand unschooling, or who says they are not
unschoolers comes along asking for information.
It's given...along with some great advice.
The person either loves the advice or gets a bit ruffled at it.
If they get ruffled, we suddenly have a couple of posters angrily deriding
and chastising the advice given by experienced unschoolers instead of letting
the original poster answer for themselves.
Often, when I got my feathers ruffled in coming to my unschooling epiphany,
that was what provoked the most thought...and eventually change.
But it was only by being ruffled, then being answered back several times that
I finally understood what the person was really saying.
It's ok for new unschoolers to get ruffled a bit...that's so normal.
It is not ok in my book, for other unschoolers to come along and
deride/chastise the unschooling advice.
Disagreement is normal.
But to totally discount what numerous, experienced and happy unschoolers are
saying is so destructive.
We will continue to point to unschooling. We will continue to point away from
subject boxes and lessons and school and disrespect to children.
I believe these are the foundations of the convictions that have been laid in
many of our hearts, through trial and questioning and real life experiences.
The best thing for the list (only an opinion again) is for certain posters to
accept that this will continue, and disagree though they may, please respect
the right of the other unschoolers here to continue to point away from those
things.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< My negative impression of "lessons" comes from years of having them
inflicted
on me, and inflicting them on others when I taught. And our language has
some bad connotations to add. "Maybe now you've learned your lesson," and
"Let THAT be a lesson to you!" are not things said with tender love. >>
Same here.
During the course of this latest round of debates, I opened up my
dictionary...just to see what the "official" definition was.
It's a Tormont Webster version and here's a couple of the definitions:
Lesson: 1. something to be learned (this to me does not imply the method in
which most unschoolers self teach) 2.a A period of instruction: a class: a
tennis lesson (occasionally useful when a child actually WANTS it)
Ah, but then we get to number 4. A reprimand or punishment.
hmmm......too many times I've heard the "that should teach him a lesson".....
I really think that many of us may use terminology different...we may indeed
have experiences that "color" our use or acceptance of words.
This still does not explain nor does it condone the behavior of those that
consistently, and persistently deride the posts/posters that point away from
lesson oriented thinking and towards a life of exploring freely, the things
that interest us.
There are experienced unschoolers here saying "get outside the box, look how
many ways there are to learn things"
without subject boxes, without lessons, without artificial time constraints.
It's quite beautiful.
Until someone comes along and says mean things about the information given.
I have read and re-read many of these posts and this is the pattern I've
seen...
A person claiming to not understand unschooling, or who says they are not
unschoolers comes along asking for information.
It's given...along with some great advice.
The person either loves the advice or gets a bit ruffled at it.
If they get ruffled, we suddenly have a couple of posters angrily deriding
and chastising the advice given by experienced unschoolers instead of letting
the original poster answer for themselves.
Often, when I got my feathers ruffled in coming to my unschooling epiphany,
that was what provoked the most thought...and eventually change.
But it was only by being ruffled, then being answered back several times that
I finally understood what the person was really saying.
It's ok for new unschoolers to get ruffled a bit...that's so normal.
It is not ok in my book, for other unschoolers to come along and
deride/chastise the unschooling advice.
Disagreement is normal.
But to totally discount what numerous, experienced and happy unschoolers are
saying is so destructive.
We will continue to point to unschooling. We will continue to point away from
subject boxes and lessons and school and disrespect to children.
I believe these are the foundations of the convictions that have been laid in
many of our hearts, through trial and questioning and real life experiences.
The best thing for the list (only an opinion again) is for certain posters to
accept that this will continue, and disagree though they may, please respect
the right of the other unschoolers here to continue to point away from those
things.
Ren
Lynda
She isn't trying to divert anything. She is giving an example of what she
meant in response to a question.
Lynda
meant in response to a question.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:14 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Language, terminology and thought
> > The "trading lessons' thread is an example. And this thread did
> feel
> > to me like people jumped on a hot button word. When I say my girls
> > want to find lessons in something, it just means they want to learn
> > it. It does not mean that I am going to stick them in a class and
> > make them do everything the instructor says and stick it out even
> if
> > it isn't what they though it would be.
> >
> > No I don't get upset if someone says "so, what exactly do you mean
> by
> > lessons?" I do get upset when someone says, "We don't believe in
> > lessons here."
>
>
> This thread didn't start because of something *you* said.
> And no one ever said, "we don't believe in lessons here".
> If anyone is jumping on things, it is you.
> Your example says, "....my girls wanted to find lessons..."
> That is not comparible to what the OP(and ensuing posts) was
> discussing.
> Your putting a slant on it that never existed.
> We're trying to discuss unschooling here. It seems counterproductive
> to divert conversations in this way.
>
>
> Joanna
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Fetteroll
on 4/22/02 10:16 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
Or if they do know it I suspect they avoid the kinds of advice that make
them uncomfortable and seek the kinds that make them comfortable. But don't
we all in a way? We seek the type of advice that works (comfortably) for us
(even if it's hard and uncomfortable sometimes!) and avoid the stuff that
doesn't.
I think *I* should because that's what feels right to me. (I think too many
conflicts have erupted here over how "we" should give advice. I think "we"
should each individually give advice in the way we as individuals feel most
comfortable giving it.)
I know how far I had to come to get to unschooling. I trust that no matter
how far someone is from unschooling when they arrive here, that if they
stick around long enough and if something about unschooling sounds appealing
(but we don't need to *make* it appealing just allow unschooling to be it's
natural self :-) then they can get unschooling if they want to.
doing in terms the neighbors want to hear that leaves the neighbors with
whatever impression the neighbors want to have.
Avoiding confrontation is a way of life for some people. But avoiding
confrontation doesn't have to mean avoiding doing controversial things. It
just means avoiding giving the *impression* of doing controversial things.
It can be challenging fun, actually :-)
I've rarely brought anything that I want to do to a list. The times I've
done so haven't given me the "right" answers. And I've felt attacked and
humiliated and wrong ;-) That's because I can't objectively examine myself.
In order to learn I need to answer someone else's questions from whatever
point of view I'm trying to understand. *Then* I can understand and apply it
to my life.
I don't know if there's a lesson in that for other sensitive people or not!
So it's not a mater of sensitivity, it's more a matter of someone's ability
to handle questioning themselves. I've managed to work around my inability
to do it directly.
Joyce
> In a message dated 4/22/02 4:06:12 PM, fetteroll@... writes:I think if they did they wouldn't run screaming out of here ;-)
>
> << I think perhaps we need a way of informing new people of the different
> varieties the advice can come in and tell them they're free to pick and
> choose. >>
>
> Don't all adults already know that?
Or if they do know it I suspect they avoid the kinds of advice that make
them uncomfortable and seek the kinds that make them comfortable. But don't
we all in a way? We seek the type of advice that works (comfortably) for us
(even if it's hard and uncomfortable sometimes!) and avoid the stuff that
doesn't.
> I don't think we should baby new unschoolers.I was going to say I think we should. But I realized I should express it as
I think *I* should because that's what feels right to me. (I think too many
conflicts have erupted here over how "we" should give advice. I think "we"
should each individually give advice in the way we as individuals feel most
comfortable giving it.)
I know how far I had to come to get to unschooling. I trust that no matter
how far someone is from unschooling when they arrive here, that if they
stick around long enough and if something about unschooling sounds appealing
(but we don't need to *make* it appealing just allow unschooling to be it's
natural self :-) then they can get unschooling if they want to.
> If they can't take aBy avoiding those people. By learning to accurately express what they are
> discussion about unschooling, how will they take the pressure from neighbors
> and other homeschoolers?
doing in terms the neighbors want to hear that leaves the neighbors with
whatever impression the neighbors want to have.
Avoiding confrontation is a way of life for some people. But avoiding
confrontation doesn't have to mean avoiding doing controversial things. It
just means avoiding giving the *impression* of doing controversial things.
It can be challenging fun, actually :-)
> Honestly, if people are too sensitive to discussWell, as one of those sensitive types I'd disagree :-)
> what they want to do, they're not strong enough to do it.
I've rarely brought anything that I want to do to a list. The times I've
done so haven't given me the "right" answers. And I've felt attacked and
humiliated and wrong ;-) That's because I can't objectively examine myself.
In order to learn I need to answer someone else's questions from whatever
point of view I'm trying to understand. *Then* I can understand and apply it
to my life.
I don't know if there's a lesson in that for other sensitive people or not!
So it's not a mater of sensitivity, it's more a matter of someone's ability
to handle questioning themselves. I've managed to work around my inability
to do it directly.
Joyce
Karin
>neighbors
> > If they can't take a
> > discussion about unschooling, how will they take the pressure from
> > and other homeschoolers?Yes! I do this. The neighbors have NO IDEA that I unschool (nor do my
>
> By avoiding those people. By learning to accurately express what they are
> doing in terms the neighbors want to hear that leaves the neighbors with
> whatever impression the neighbors want to have.
in-laws! ;-) and if I would be getting much "pressure" from other
homeschoolers about why I am unschooling, I would not see those
homeschoolers any more.
> Avoiding confrontation is a way of life for some people. But avoidingI avoid confrontation as much as possible - IRL and online. And you are so
> confrontation doesn't have to mean avoiding doing controversial things. It
> just means avoiding giving the *impression* of doing controversial things.
> It can be challenging fun, actually :-)
right, that doesn't mean I avoid doing controversial things. Many times I
*specifically* seek out and am drawn to controversial things! Most people
would never guess this about shy and quiet me. ;-)
> > Honestly, if people are too sensitive to discussmyself.
> > what they want to do, they're not strong enough to do it.
>
> Well, as one of those sensitive types I'd disagree :-)
>
> I've rarely brought anything that I want to do to a list. The times I've
> done so haven't given me the "right" answers. And I've felt attacked and
> humiliated and wrong ;-) That's because I can't objectively examine
> In order to learn I need to answer someone else's questions from whateverit
> point of view I'm trying to understand. *Then* I can understand and apply
> to my life.You are again describing me SO WELL! This is exactly how I feel, too. And
because I understand these feelings, I am VERY careful to not attack,
humiliate or shame anyone. Of course, that's easy to do when I don't post
that much. <g> But I do cringe when I see other newcomers get attacked - in
a sense. I know how they must be feeling. IMO, if time is taken to carefully
choose words about advice given, nobody needs to feel hurt or humiliated, in
most cases. I know sometimes that's hard to do when an obvious unschooling
no-no is apparent, but I've seen people respond in kind but firm ways that
don't harm. For instance, I don't think I've ever seen Joyce attack or
humiliate anyone. (And probably not a coincidence that she is moderator
here! ;-)
I'm also pondering the thought posted about being sensitive to discussing
unschooling and not strong enough to do it. Does that mean that one has to
be a good debater to be a good unschooler? Aaack!! I hope not. I'm not
really a good debater. I *do* have strong opinions about many things,
unschooling being one of them, and I can defend my opinions *to a point*,
but when the discussion gets to the point when if feels like I'm losing
ground and we're going in circles, I would rather give up than go on
debating. I don't really enjoy heated discussions. They make me feel
uncomfortable. And I think this has to do with ones personality. BUT, I
still think I can unschool my kids, regardless of my debating skills. <g>
I'm just thinking out loud here. Like someone else mentioned, I'm almost
afraid to recommend this list as an unschooling resource, especially to
sensitive-type people. I have done just that, today, and I'm not sure if she
will join but if she does, I hope that she won't regret it. Because I know
she is still somewhat shakey on her unschooling legs but is needing support
and assurance about older unschoolers and if they can make it as competent
and happy adults.
Anyway, just giving another sensitive newcomer's point-of-view, although I
wouldn't consider myself a newbie right now, I still remember what it feels
like to be one, and I hope I never forget.
Karin
Fetteroll
on 4/23/02 7:44 PM, Karin at curtkar@... wrote:
post that isn't kind as the person not having taken time. I'd say their time
is concentrated on different aspects, in asking the right question for
instance to get someone's brain from where it is to where it needs to be to
understand unschooling.
Some people may be so wired to read the "kind" posts and interpret it to
mean whatever they're doing is okay. And what they really need is a wake up
call.
So it's great to have many different points of views and styles of
answering. It would be real nice if people could ignore the advice they
don't find useful but I'm not sure I'd be able to learn that lesson ;-)
Joyce
> IMO, if time is taken to carefullyWell, I like to see a mixture :-) I'm not sure it's fair to categorize a
> choose words about advice given, nobody needs to feel hurt or humiliated, in
> most cases. I know sometimes that's hard to do when an obvious unschooling
> no-no is apparent, but I've seen people respond in kind but firm ways that
> don't harm.
post that isn't kind as the person not having taken time. I'd say their time
is concentrated on different aspects, in asking the right question for
instance to get someone's brain from where it is to where it needs to be to
understand unschooling.
Some people may be so wired to read the "kind" posts and interpret it to
mean whatever they're doing is okay. And what they really need is a wake up
call.
So it's great to have many different points of views and styles of
answering. It would be real nice if people could ignore the advice they
don't find useful but I'm not sure I'd be able to learn that lesson ;-)
Joyce
Karin
>time
> Well, I like to see a mixture :-) I'm not sure it's fair to categorize a
> post that isn't kind as the person not having taken time. I'd say their
> is concentrated on different aspects, in asking the right question forto
> instance to get someone's brain from where it is to where it needs to be
> understand unschooling.You are right. I'm grateful to everyone here for taking the time they do to
>
elaborate on and explain in glorious detail all aspects of unschooling.
Karin
Lynda
Unschooling shouldn't be viewed as a one-size-fits-all in any of its many
aspects and that would include giving and receiving advise. After all,
wasn't one of the reasons for not sending our children to ps is that they
are pigeon-holed and not treated as individuals by the system? Seems
logical that the same would apply to the other members of the unschooling
family.
Some folks leap right into unschooling, some take baby steps. I guess I
don't understand why the same folks who understand that children who have
been to ps will need to deschool in various degrees can't/don't/won't
understand that adults coming to the list will also have to
deschool/relax/let go at their own pace.
And just as everyone has their own style of posting, why not accept that
others are going to have their own style or method of
receiving/understanding the advise being given to them.
Lynda
aspects and that would include giving and receiving advise. After all,
wasn't one of the reasons for not sending our children to ps is that they
are pigeon-holed and not treated as individuals by the system? Seems
logical that the same would apply to the other members of the unschooling
family.
Some folks leap right into unschooling, some take baby steps. I guess I
don't understand why the same folks who understand that children who have
been to ps will need to deschool in various degrees can't/don't/won't
understand that adults coming to the list will also have to
deschool/relax/let go at their own pace.
And just as everyone has their own style of posting, why not accept that
others are going to have their own style or method of
receiving/understanding the advise being given to them.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Language, terminology and thought
> I think if they did they wouldn't run screaming out of here ;-)
>
> Or if they do know it I suspect they avoid the kinds of advice that make
> them uncomfortable and seek the kinds that make them comfortable. But
don't
> we all in a way? We seek the type of advice that works (comfortably) for
us
> (even if it's hard and uncomfortable sometimes!) and avoid the stuff that
> doesn't.
>
> > I don't think we should baby new unschoolers.
>
> I was going to say I think we should. But I realized I should express it
as
> I think *I* should because that's what feels right to me. (I think too
many
> conflicts have erupted here over how "we" should give advice. I think "we"
> should each individually give advice in the way we as individuals feel
most
> comfortable giving it.)
>
> I know how far I had to come to get to unschooling. I trust that no matter
> how far someone is from unschooling when they arrive here, that if they
> stick around long enough and if something about unschooling sounds
appealing
> (but we don't need to *make* it appealing just allow unschooling to be
it's
> natural self :-) then they can get unschooling if they want to.
>
> > If they can't take a
> > discussion about unschooling, how will they take the pressure from
neighbors
> > and other homeschoolers?
>
> By avoiding those people. By learning to accurately express what they are
> doing in terms the neighbors want to hear that leaves the neighbors with
> whatever impression the neighbors want to have.
>
> Avoiding confrontation is a way of life for some people. But avoiding
> confrontation doesn't have to mean avoiding doing controversial things. It
> just means avoiding giving the *impression* of doing controversial things.
> It can be challenging fun, actually :-)
>
> > Honestly, if people are too sensitive to discuss
> > what they want to do, they're not strong enough to do it.
>
> Well, as one of those sensitive types I'd disagree :-)
>
> I've rarely brought anything that I want to do to a list. The times I've
> done so haven't given me the "right" answers. And I've felt attacked and
> humiliated and wrong ;-) That's because I can't objectively examine
myself.
> In order to learn I need to answer someone else's questions from whatever
> point of view I'm trying to understand. *Then* I can understand and apply
it
> to my life.
>
> I don't know if there's a lesson in that for other sensitive people or
not!
>
> So it's not a mater of sensitivity, it's more a matter of someone's
ability
> to handle questioning themselves. I've managed to work around my inability
> to do it directly.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2002 4:22:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
curtkar@... writes:
direct and honest statements which jarred us out of our usual thinking
patterns and allowed us to really shift paradigms. The direct and blunt posts
that might feel too harsh to some sensitive people are like raindrops in the
parched desert to others of us. I am not particularly sensitive (anymore - I
grew out of it <g>) and I don't mistake unschooling advice for personal
attacks on me, my family, my homeschooling decisions, or my lifestyle.
No stranger on an email list really MATTERS enough to me that I would get
"hurt" by anything they say. I just take what they say as input - as
something to consider. I appreciate ideas that shake me up a little - that
are strong and clear and don't pussyfoot around the point.
So - people are different. Some people want to make everyone behave in a way
that would work best for themselves.
But as unschooling parents, one of the first things we have to do is give up
the idea that our own children ought to learn the same way we learn best.
We can give up that expectation of each other, too.
--pam (This post is intended to further our understanding of unschooling and
to help build a list environment that is conducive to that.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
curtkar@... writes:
> You are again describing me SO WELL! This is exactly how I feel, too. AndOn the other hand, some of us appreciate having been responded to with very
> because I understand these feelings, I am VERY careful to not attack,
> humiliate or shame anyone. Of course, that's easy to do when I don't post
> that much. <g> But I do cringe when I see other newcomers get attacked - in
> a sense. I know how they must be feeling. IMO, if time is taken to
> carefully
> choose words about advice given, nobody needs to feel hurt or humiliated,
> in
> most cases.
direct and honest statements which jarred us out of our usual thinking
patterns and allowed us to really shift paradigms. The direct and blunt posts
that might feel too harsh to some sensitive people are like raindrops in the
parched desert to others of us. I am not particularly sensitive (anymore - I
grew out of it <g>) and I don't mistake unschooling advice for personal
attacks on me, my family, my homeschooling decisions, or my lifestyle.
No stranger on an email list really MATTERS enough to me that I would get
"hurt" by anything they say. I just take what they say as input - as
something to consider. I appreciate ideas that shake me up a little - that
are strong and clear and don't pussyfoot around the point.
So - people are different. Some people want to make everyone behave in a way
that would work best for themselves.
But as unschooling parents, one of the first things we have to do is give up
the idea that our own children ought to learn the same way we learn best.
We can give up that expectation of each other, too.
--pam (This post is intended to further our understanding of unschooling and
to help build a list environment that is conducive to that.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 4/24/02 3:40 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:
(That she was able to condense the huge paragraph she wrote if someone has
lost track of the thread!)
Joyce
> help build a list environment that is conducive to thatI'm impressed! :-)
(That she was able to condense the huge paragraph she wrote if someone has
lost track of the thread!)
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 4/24/02 1:39 AM, Lynda at lurine@... wrote:
new people but we have lots of people jumping on others for upsetting them.
Anyone who can't pick up obvious clues like that is probably dead and not
offering advice here anyway. ;-)
That different people need to receive different advice is obvious and no one
is disputing that. The problem is how to deal with it.
Do we offer only advice that is guaranteed nonthreatening and then slowly
offer more and more difficult stuff up to someone's tolerance level? And how
would we "train" everyone who wants to give advice in how to do that? A
dozen different readers can interpret the same thing in a dozen different
ways.
Do we somehow read someoene's mind and figure out they aren't quite ready
for the hard questions yet and just give them the advice they want to hear?
(And what if their comfort point is being assured that what they are doing
is fine when it isn't unschooling? It may be fine in the great scheme of
things but why would someone *specifically* need to seek out unschooler --
not fellow homeschoolers but *unschoolers* -- to reassure them what they are
doing is fine?)
Or, like a library, do we offer them what they are asking for and let *them*
pick and choose what they find useful and discard what they don't? And what
of those who are reading who need a different style of advice?
We have all heard loud and clear that some people feel attacked by certain
styles of advice. I think two things are being missed:
The ones who interpret the hard advice as attack are not *just* being
offered hard advice. They *are* being offered a variety but they're taking
exception to the fact that some of it is not to their liking.
The people who have spoken up and said they *needed* the harder type of
advice for them to get unschooling. They don't get hurt and angry because
some of the advice is soft. (Nor should they!) They just take what's useful
to them and leave what isn't. And if the advice gets limited to soft they'll
just have a vague sense that this list isn't meeting their needs and leave
without a big grandstanding fuss. The effect of losing people will be
*exactly* the same. The difference is we won't have to be upset by the fact
that we did something to make them leave because we won't even be aware of
it.
I think it's also helpful to keep in mind that this advice that upsets
people *isn't* intended to hurt them. It *isn't* hate literature we're
offering people in our library. It's perfectly fine literature that some
people love and some people find objectionable. *And* we're offering them a
variety to choose from. Some people are just getting upset that the stuff
they deem objectionable is being offered at all.
So, what to do?
Rather than censor or control advice or advice givers, I think helping new
people be better informed is a better -- a more democratic and unschooling
;-) -- answer.
But how to deliver the information? In an introductory letter? If people
read them. :-/ (But if they don't, it isn't the lists fault!) A monthly
reminder on the list is probably annoying and impersonal.
I like what Pam said:
"Some of the advice you get here might challenge you, shock you, disturb
you, or seem harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful
and what feels uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed
to hear. If you don't like the way someone says something, ignore it. If you
disagree with the content of what they say, offer your own alternative
ideas."
(Just thinking out loud there.)
Any sensitive types who are afraid to post because you don't want attacked
want to comment? (You can email me privately of course!)
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
=== If you change the topic, don't forget to change the subject header! ===
> And just as everyone has their own style of posting, why not accept thatWell I think that's obvious! Not only do we have the upset reactions from
> others are going to have their own style or method of
> receiving/understanding the advise being given to them.
new people but we have lots of people jumping on others for upsetting them.
Anyone who can't pick up obvious clues like that is probably dead and not
offering advice here anyway. ;-)
That different people need to receive different advice is obvious and no one
is disputing that. The problem is how to deal with it.
Do we offer only advice that is guaranteed nonthreatening and then slowly
offer more and more difficult stuff up to someone's tolerance level? And how
would we "train" everyone who wants to give advice in how to do that? A
dozen different readers can interpret the same thing in a dozen different
ways.
Do we somehow read someoene's mind and figure out they aren't quite ready
for the hard questions yet and just give them the advice they want to hear?
(And what if their comfort point is being assured that what they are doing
is fine when it isn't unschooling? It may be fine in the great scheme of
things but why would someone *specifically* need to seek out unschooler --
not fellow homeschoolers but *unschoolers* -- to reassure them what they are
doing is fine?)
Or, like a library, do we offer them what they are asking for and let *them*
pick and choose what they find useful and discard what they don't? And what
of those who are reading who need a different style of advice?
We have all heard loud and clear that some people feel attacked by certain
styles of advice. I think two things are being missed:
The ones who interpret the hard advice as attack are not *just* being
offered hard advice. They *are* being offered a variety but they're taking
exception to the fact that some of it is not to their liking.
The people who have spoken up and said they *needed* the harder type of
advice for them to get unschooling. They don't get hurt and angry because
some of the advice is soft. (Nor should they!) They just take what's useful
to them and leave what isn't. And if the advice gets limited to soft they'll
just have a vague sense that this list isn't meeting their needs and leave
without a big grandstanding fuss. The effect of losing people will be
*exactly* the same. The difference is we won't have to be upset by the fact
that we did something to make them leave because we won't even be aware of
it.
I think it's also helpful to keep in mind that this advice that upsets
people *isn't* intended to hurt them. It *isn't* hate literature we're
offering people in our library. It's perfectly fine literature that some
people love and some people find objectionable. *And* we're offering them a
variety to choose from. Some people are just getting upset that the stuff
they deem objectionable is being offered at all.
So, what to do?
Rather than censor or control advice or advice givers, I think helping new
people be better informed is a better -- a more democratic and unschooling
;-) -- answer.
But how to deliver the information? In an introductory letter? If people
read them. :-/ (But if they don't, it isn't the lists fault!) A monthly
reminder on the list is probably annoying and impersonal.
I like what Pam said:
"Some of the advice you get here might challenge you, shock you, disturb
you, or seem harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful
and what feels uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed
to hear. If you don't like the way someone says something, ignore it. If you
disagree with the content of what they say, offer your own alternative
ideas."
(Just thinking out loud there.)
Any sensitive types who are afraid to post because you don't want attacked
want to comment? (You can email me privately of course!)
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
=== If you change the topic, don't forget to change the subject header! ===
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
Sure, we hear lots of testamonials about people who came here and were
receptive to the bluntness. BUT I know two people IRL and several
people online who came here and left because they couldn't handle it.
I've had lots of discussions with one of them and she said something
to the effect that she was terrified to even ask a question here
because she has in the past been pretty fragile emotionally and she
didn't want to even take the chance that she would get attacked the
way she had seen others attacked.
So what I don't understand is why many here can't be blunt without
sounding like they are attacking? It seems to me that it would be
just as easy and blunt to ask, "Why do you feel the need for
'lessons' and what exactly do mean by lessons anyway?" instead of
saying, "We don't DO lessons here? That just isn't the unschooling
way."
(Sorry to bring it back to the lessons thread, but it was the first
example I thought of.)
>attacked
> Any sensitive types who are afraid to post because you don't want
> want to comment? (You can email me privately of course!)I guess the thing that strikes me is this:
>
> Joyce
Sure, we hear lots of testamonials about people who came here and were
receptive to the bluntness. BUT I know two people IRL and several
people online who came here and left because they couldn't handle it.
I've had lots of discussions with one of them and she said something
to the effect that she was terrified to even ask a question here
because she has in the past been pretty fragile emotionally and she
didn't want to even take the chance that she would get attacked the
way she had seen others attacked.
So what I don't understand is why many here can't be blunt without
sounding like they are attacking? It seems to me that it would be
just as easy and blunt to ask, "Why do you feel the need for
'lessons' and what exactly do mean by lessons anyway?" instead of
saying, "We don't DO lessons here? That just isn't the unschooling
way."
(Sorry to bring it back to the lessons thread, but it was the first
example I thought of.)
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
Sure, we hear lots of testamonials about people who came here and were
receptive to the bluntness. BUT I know two people IRL and several
people online who came here and left because they couldn't handle it.
I've had lots of discussions with one of them and she said something
to the effect that she was terrified to even ask a question here
because she has in the past been pretty fragile emotionally and she
didn't want to even take the chance that she would get attacked the
way she had seen others attacked.
So what I don't understand is why many here can't be blunt without
sounding like they are attacking? It seems to me that it would be
just as easy and blunt to ask, "Why do you feel the need for
'lessons' and what exactly do mean by lessons anyway?" instead of
saying, "We don't DO lessons here? That just isn't the unschooling
way."
(Sorry to bring it back to the lessons thread, but it was the first
example I thought of.)
>attacked
> Any sensitive types who are afraid to post because you don't want
> want to comment? (You can email me privately of course!)I guess the thing that strikes me is this:
>
> Joyce
Sure, we hear lots of testamonials about people who came here and were
receptive to the bluntness. BUT I know two people IRL and several
people online who came here and left because they couldn't handle it.
I've had lots of discussions with one of them and she said something
to the effect that she was terrified to even ask a question here
because she has in the past been pretty fragile emotionally and she
didn't want to even take the chance that she would get attacked the
way she had seen others attacked.
So what I don't understand is why many here can't be blunt without
sounding like they are attacking? It seems to me that it would be
just as easy and blunt to ask, "Why do you feel the need for
'lessons' and what exactly do mean by lessons anyway?" instead of
saying, "We don't DO lessons here? That just isn't the unschooling
way."
(Sorry to bring it back to the lessons thread, but it was the first
example I thought of.)
rumpleteasermom
Ren,
I have a couple thoughts here:
One is that, yes you have every right to continue posting in the same
manner that you have. BUT, I personally know several people who left
this list specifically because of that type of posting, so for
everyone you help, you may be loosing one too. Just a thought to
think about.
My second thought is that you seem to be saying that any homeschooler
or parent for that matter who doesn't take to unschooling must not
respect their children properly. So is that really what you think?
Bridget
I have a couple thoughts here:
One is that, yes you have every right to continue posting in the same
manner that you have. BUT, I personally know several people who left
this list specifically because of that type of posting, so for
everyone you help, you may be loosing one too. Just a thought to
think about.
My second thought is that you seem to be saying that any homeschooler
or parent for that matter who doesn't take to unschooling must not
respect their children properly. So is that really what you think?
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., starsuncloud@c... wrote:
> We will continue to point to unschooling. We will continue to point
away from
> subject boxes and lessons and school and disrespect to children.
> I believe these are the foundations of the convictions that have
been laid in
> many of our hearts, through trial and questioning and real life
experiences.
> The best thing for the list (only an opinion again) is for certain
posters to
> accept that this will continue, and disagree though they may, please
respect
> the right of the other unschoolers here to continue to point away
from those
> things.
> Ren
Fetteroll
on 4/24/02 10:44 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:
If anyone has comments of a person nature, eg how someone posts, their word
choice, how nasty they are, their immature behavior, how they part their
hair *PLEASE* Keep Them Off The List.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> One is that, yes you have every right to continue posting in the sameDoes this help anyone understand more about unschooling?
> manner that you have. BUT, I personally know several people who left
> this list specifically because of that type of posting, so for
> everyone you help, you may be loosing one too. Just a thought to
> think about.
If anyone has comments of a person nature, eg how someone posts, their word
choice, how nasty they are, their immature behavior, how they part their
hair *PLEASE* Keep Them Off The List.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
I was talking about a type of posting and the effects it can have.
And just asking that it be considered.
And if you are going to question my answer to Ren in this manner, you
probably should be questioning Ren's post too.
Bridget
> on 4/24/02 10:44 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@j... wrote:same
>
> > One is that, yes you have every right to continue posting in the
> > manner that you have. BUT, I personally know several people wholeft
> > this list specifically because of that type of posting, so forWell, yes it may. I wasn't meaning that Ren herself was a bad poster.
> > everyone you help, you may be loosing one too. Just a thought to
> > think about.
>
> Does this help anyone understand more about unschooling?
I was talking about a type of posting and the effects it can have.
And just asking that it be considered.
And if you are going to question my answer to Ren in this manner, you
probably should be questioning Ren's post too.
Bridget
Fetteroll
on 4/24/02 11:30 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:
*Apparently* since I keep "reminding" certain people over and over there is
some extreme confusion over how we can create a place to discuss
unschooling. I will continue to post *examples* of what being "uncivil"
means until it stops.
I didn't want to do this on list because one, I *assumed* people were making
these comments by mistake and were honestly *trying* to be more civil so a
reminder off list was enough and, two, because the focus will shift from
improving *your* (general you) behavior to whether other people are
improving their behavior and whether it's being singled out fairly.
Pay attention to *your* behavior, *your* posting style. *Not* other
people's. (That goes for everyone.)
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> And if you are going to question my answer to Ren in this manner, youThis is *not* an exercise in who gets called on what.
> probably should be questioning Ren's post too.
*Apparently* since I keep "reminding" certain people over and over there is
some extreme confusion over how we can create a place to discuss
unschooling. I will continue to post *examples* of what being "uncivil"
means until it stops.
I didn't want to do this on list because one, I *assumed* people were making
these comments by mistake and were honestly *trying* to be more civil so a
reminder off list was enough and, two, because the focus will shift from
improving *your* (general you) behavior to whether other people are
improving their behavior and whether it's being singled out fairly.
Pay attention to *your* behavior, *your* posting style. *Not* other
people's. (That goes for everyone.)
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/24/2002 6:42:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:
people post is what fills the list with negativity. Just let people be who
they are - we aren't their mothers, to teach them how to behave the way we
think is right. If we don't like how someone posts, if WE think it is
offensive or looks like an attack to some people, then we only compound the
negativity by following it up with more attacks attacking them for attacking
someone else, and so on. If we don't learn to let things go by without
comment - the list will eventually collapse under the weight of the negative
posting.
We are unschoolers - we LET our kids be who they are. This very often means
letting them pursue something in their own way, even though it isn't the way
we would do it and even if we think it is counterproductive. Lets give the
same respect to other unschooling parents who are here and offering advice in
THEIR own way. Every question gets a variety of answers - lets give some
respect to the questioners, too, they are adults and can sort through the
answers to take what is useful to them and ignore those that upset them. They
don't need a bunch of us jumping in front of them, to protect them from
anything that might offend them.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom@... writes:
> So what I don't understand is why many here can't be blunt withoutBecause everyone is doing their best and all the complaining ABOUT how other
> sounding like they are attacking? It seems to me that it would be
> just as easy and blunt to ask, "Why do you feel the need for
> 'lessons' and what exactly do mean by lessons anyway?" instead of
> saying, "We don't DO lessons here? That just isn't the unschooling
> way."
people post is what fills the list with negativity. Just let people be who
they are - we aren't their mothers, to teach them how to behave the way we
think is right. If we don't like how someone posts, if WE think it is
offensive or looks like an attack to some people, then we only compound the
negativity by following it up with more attacks attacking them for attacking
someone else, and so on. If we don't learn to let things go by without
comment - the list will eventually collapse under the weight of the negative
posting.
We are unschoolers - we LET our kids be who they are. This very often means
letting them pursue something in their own way, even though it isn't the way
we would do it and even if we think it is counterproductive. Lets give the
same respect to other unschooling parents who are here and offering advice in
THEIR own way. Every question gets a variety of answers - lets give some
respect to the questioners, too, they are adults and can sort through the
answers to take what is useful to them and ignore those that upset them. They
don't need a bunch of us jumping in front of them, to protect them from
anything that might offend them.
--pamS
Some of what is said here may challenge you, shock you, disturb you, or seem
harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful and what feels
uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed to hear.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Yes people have been disputing that people "need" advise in different ways.
It has been flat out stated that of they can't take the "slap up along side
the head" advise that they are too weak to unschool.
One of the first rules of public speaking is to deliver your message in a
manner that fits your audience. For example, if you were giving an
unschooling talk to a Christian fundamentalist group, you wouldn't appear in
hot pants, a tube top and inject four letter words every other sentence.
However, if you were addressing a group of Hell's Angels, you might.
The same goes with any debate group. You change tone to effectively deliver
your message.
What everyone seems to forget or doesn't understand is that the "tone" you
use doesn' deminish the message. The most effective tone is the one that
gets the message across to the particular segment of the population you are
addressing at any given time.
As to a message being "non-threatening," you can shake up the foundation of
someone's thinking without appearing threatening or appearing to attack
Lynda
It has been flat out stated that of they can't take the "slap up along side
the head" advise that they are too weak to unschool.
One of the first rules of public speaking is to deliver your message in a
manner that fits your audience. For example, if you were giving an
unschooling talk to a Christian fundamentalist group, you wouldn't appear in
hot pants, a tube top and inject four letter words every other sentence.
However, if you were addressing a group of Hell's Angels, you might.
The same goes with any debate group. You change tone to effectively deliver
your message.
What everyone seems to forget or doesn't understand is that the "tone" you
use doesn' deminish the message. The most effective tone is the one that
gets the message across to the particular segment of the population you are
addressing at any given time.
As to a message being "non-threatening," you can shake up the foundation of
someone's thinking without appearing threatening or appearing to attack
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Language, terminology and thought
> on 4/24/02 1:39 AM, Lynda at lurine@... wrote:
>
> > And just as everyone has their own style of posting, why not accept that
> > others are going to have their own style or method of
> > receiving/understanding the advise being given to them.
>
> Well I think that's obvious! Not only do we have the upset reactions from
> new people but we have lots of people jumping on others for upsetting
them.
> Anyone who can't pick up obvious clues like that is probably dead and not
> offering advice here anyway. ;-)
>
> That different people need to receive different advice is obvious and no
one
> is disputing that. The problem is how to deal with it.
>
> Do we offer only advice that is guaranteed nonthreatening and then slowly
> offer more and more difficult stuff up to someone's tolerance level? And
how
> would we "train" everyone who wants to give advice in how to do that? A
> dozen different readers can interpret the same thing in a dozen different
> ways.
>
> Do we somehow read someoene's mind and figure out they aren't quite ready
> for the hard questions yet and just give them the advice they want to
hear?
>
> (And what if their comfort point is being assured that what they are doing
> is fine when it isn't unschooling? It may be fine in the great scheme of
> things but why would someone *specifically* need to seek out unschooler --
> not fellow homeschoolers but *unschoolers* -- to reassure them what they
are
> doing is fine?)
>
> Or, like a library, do we offer them what they are asking for and let
*them*
> pick and choose what they find useful and discard what they don't? And
what
> of those who are reading who need a different style of advice?
>
> We have all heard loud and clear that some people feel attacked by certain
> styles of advice. I think two things are being missed:
>
> The ones who interpret the hard advice as attack are not *just* being
> offered hard advice. They *are* being offered a variety but they're taking
> exception to the fact that some of it is not to their liking.
>
> The people who have spoken up and said they *needed* the harder type of
> advice for them to get unschooling. They don't get hurt and angry because
> some of the advice is soft. (Nor should they!) They just take what's
useful
> to them and leave what isn't. And if the advice gets limited to soft
they'll
> just have a vague sense that this list isn't meeting their needs and leave
> without a big grandstanding fuss. The effect of losing people will be
> *exactly* the same. The difference is we won't have to be upset by the
fact
> that we did something to make them leave because we won't even be aware of
> it.
>
> I think it's also helpful to keep in mind that this advice that upsets
> people *isn't* intended to hurt them. It *isn't* hate literature we're
> offering people in our library. It's perfectly fine literature that some
> people love and some people find objectionable. *And* we're offering them
a
> variety to choose from. Some people are just getting upset that the stuff
> they deem objectionable is being offered at all.
>
> So, what to do?
>
> Rather than censor or control advice or advice givers, I think helping new
> people be better informed is a better -- a more democratic and unschooling
> ;-) -- answer.
>
> But how to deliver the information? In an introductory letter? If people
> read them. :-/ (But if they don't, it isn't the lists fault!) A monthly
> reminder on the list is probably annoying and impersonal.
>
> I like what Pam said:
>
> "Some of the advice you get here might challenge you, shock you, disturb
> you, or seem harsh. But remember that people are offering it to be helpful
> and what feels uncomfortable to you might be just what someone else needed
> to hear. If you don't like the way someone says something, ignore it. If
you
> disagree with the content of what they say, offer your own alternative
> ideas."
>
> (Just thinking out loud there.)
>
> Any sensitive types who are afraid to post because you don't want attacked
> want to comment? (You can email me privately of course!)
>
> Joyce
> Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> === If you change the topic, don't forget to change the subject header!
===
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Tia Leschke
>Every question gets a variety of answers - lets give someI agree with this. I also think that often the person who was originally
>respect to the questioners, too, they are adults and can sort through the
>answers to take what is useful to them and ignore those that upset them. They
>don't need a bunch of us jumping in front of them, to protect them from
>anything that might offend them.
"attacked" (or not, depending upon which side of the fence you're on) gets
so confused by all the posts that criticize the "attacker" and defending
the "attacker" that they get all that stuff mixed up in their minds. Often
they think someone said something about them that was actually said about
someone else.
If you think someone gave a bad answer to someone's question, just ignore
their answer and answer the question the way you think it should be
answered. Then you've given the person a choice of answers instead of a
big argument that doesn't even really answer their question.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/24/02 4:49:37 PM, lurine@... writes:
<< Yes people have been disputing that people "need" advise in different ways.
It has been flat out stated that of they can't take the "slap up along side
the head" advise that they are too weak to unschool. >>
"Flat out" means literally, and quotations marks indicate exact words of
another speaker or writer.
The paragraph above misrepresents statements made here. It is not a true
representation of what was said.
Since it's not really about unschooling, and since it seems to target an
individual, how about getting back to unschooling?
Language is powerful, and can be used purposely to harm.
Sandra
<< Yes people have been disputing that people "need" advise in different ways.
It has been flat out stated that of they can't take the "slap up along side
the head" advise that they are too weak to unschool. >>
"Flat out" means literally, and quotations marks indicate exact words of
another speaker or writer.
The paragraph above misrepresents statements made here. It is not a true
representation of what was said.
Since it's not really about unschooling, and since it seems to target an
individual, how about getting back to unschooling?
Language is powerful, and can be used purposely to harm.
Sandra
Lynda
If it is not about unschooling then the paraphrased exchanges shouldn't have
existed either and there were several of them by several different posters
over a period of over a year or so and those posts shouldn't have appeared
either.
If it is not about unschooling, then the statements it was in response to
weren't either and shouldn't have appeared.
But that begs the definition of unschooling and some of us consider
unschooling to be life and life to be unschooling and thus no topic is
off-topic and not about unschooling.
So let's talk about unschooling. Child led, non-coerced unschooling. When
one of the kidlets takes off on one of their "adventures," I don't stop them
and say, oops, that isn't in line with what you originally started out to
do. Stop here. Tangents are not only allowed but are some of the greatest
sources of learning there is.
"The rules say you can't" belongs in ps, not in unschooling.
Lynda
existed either and there were several of them by several different posters
over a period of over a year or so and those posts shouldn't have appeared
either.
If it is not about unschooling, then the statements it was in response to
weren't either and shouldn't have appeared.
But that begs the definition of unschooling and some of us consider
unschooling to be life and life to be unschooling and thus no topic is
off-topic and not about unschooling.
So let's talk about unschooling. Child led, non-coerced unschooling. When
one of the kidlets takes off on one of their "adventures," I don't stop them
and say, oops, that isn't in line with what you originally started out to
do. Stop here. Tangents are not only allowed but are some of the greatest
sources of learning there is.
"The rules say you can't" belongs in ps, not in unschooling.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Language, terminology and thought
>
> In a message dated 4/24/02 4:49:37 PM, lurine@... writes:
>
> << Yes people have been disputing that people "need" advise in different
ways.
> It has been flat out stated that of they can't take the "slap up along
side
> the head" advise that they are too weak to unschool. >>
>
> "Flat out" means literally, and quotations marks indicate exact words of
> another speaker or writer.
>
> The paragraph above misrepresents statements made here. It is not a true
> representation of what was said.
>
> Since it's not really about unschooling, and since it seems to target an
> individual, how about getting back to unschooling?
>
> Language is powerful, and can be used purposely to harm.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Tia Leschke
>If it is not about unschooling then the paraphrased exchanges shouldn't haveCan we remove ourselves from the past and just get on with discussing
>existed either and there were several of them by several different posters
>over a period of over a year or so and those posts shouldn't have appeared
>either.
unschooling?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island