[email protected]

In a message dated 4/19/02 9:23:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< How do you help someone else learn something that you are not very good
at?
>>

By providing opportunity and fun materials. By fun materials in math, I mean
things like Tangrams, an abacus, a hand counter (those little clicky things),
magnetic marbles, plastic frogs for sorting and counting, plastic magnetic
numbers, books, puzzles, chess game.........there are oodles of things a
person could list. These are just a few of the things in our house that have
led to learning. Not because I even put them out. They are available, within
reach and they get used off and on.
My 8 y.o. ds taught himself to count to 1,000 by playing with the hand
counter and flipping through a hymnal (large numbers at the top of pages).
I give him money every week, so he has opportunity to use it, count it and
manipulate it.
Give opportunity, give materials...they can't stop learning.
Ren

sharon childs

Sounds like some great resources. Thanks.

Some of those things I haven't even heard of but of course most I have. I
guess I could start pulling things out that I already have here, that I just
had not thought of in terms of being math things.

Just like I never dreamed sign reading would play such a big part. Lately
Chae has been trying to read every sign we pass and she is getting really
good at it too. She has improved amazingly in just the last couple or few
weeks. I hope math will be the next big break through.

Sharon
----- Original Message -----
From: <starsuncloud@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 7:10 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] math experiences


> In a message dated 4/19/02 9:23:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << How do you help someone else learn something that you are not very
good
> at?
> >>
>
> By providing opportunity and fun materials. By fun materials in math, I
mean
> things like Tangrams, an abacus, a hand counter (those little clicky
things),
> magnetic marbles, plastic frogs for sorting and counting, plastic magnetic
> numbers, books, puzzles, chess game.........there are oodles of things a
> person could list. These are just a few of the things in our house that
have
> led to learning. Not because I even put them out. They are available,
within
> reach and they get used off and on.
> My 8 y.o. ds taught himself to count to 1,000 by playing with the hand
> counter and flipping through a hymnal (large numbers at the top of pages).
> I give him money every week, so he has opportunity to use it, count it and
> manipulate it.
> Give opportunity, give materials...they can't stop learning.
> Ren
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Tia Leschke

>
>Some of those things I haven't even heard of but of course most I have. I
>guess I could start pulling things out that I already have here, that I just
>had not thought of in terms of being math things.

Anything that can be counted and manipulated could be a math thing. <g>


>Just like I never dreamed sign reading would play such a big part. Lately
>Chae has been trying to read every sign we pass and she is getting really
>good at it too. She has improved amazingly in just the last couple or few
>weeks. I hope math will be the next big break through.

Math is more likely to be a series of smaller break throughs. With
reading, there's a point when you *can* read. You might not read well yet,
but it isn't just a bunch of meaningless letters anymore. Math is more a
matter of "getting" this concept and then "getting" that one and then yet
another one. Suddenly *this* makes sense, and then something else. At
least that's how I've seen it happen with my boy.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

gruvystarchild

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "sharon childs" <sugarcrafter@u...>
wrote:
> Sounds like some great resources. Thanks.
>

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <starsuncloud@c...>
> To: <Unschooling-dotcom@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 7:10 AM
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] math experiences
>
> . 'I hope math will be the next big break through.'

I hope you don't take this wrong Sharon...but this sentence hit me
between the eyes.
If you're looking for "math", "Geography", "reading" you may be
impeding yourself as an unschooler.
Enjoy your days. Surround yourself with love and life and all things
good. Explore your dreams, their dreams, embrace the world.
Out of it will come many lessons.....and as you journey you will not
find that you can put them in subject boxes.
Math, reading, writing, history....they all interweave and mingle
making a person wonder why on earth we need to label all these things
into separate boxes!!!
Don't look for math break throughs.
Look for fun opportunities.
A really fun book that I enjoyed reading to myself last week is "Math
Curse". It's a children's book about a person finding math in...well,
in EVERYTHING. It's eye opening to a person like me that has been
math phobic.
Read it sometime and you will realize just how math surrounds us in
every way. You can't escape it. But don't look for break throughs or
you may be blocking opportunity.
Ren

> >



> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Unschooling-dotcom-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Bonni Sollars

[How can I have a 4.0 gpa and still not understand math? It is a
frustrating
thing.]
Sharon,I know what you mean. I had 4 chemistry classes in high school,
and while I understood how the little molecules are made by the atoms and
all that, I never could see how to apply it in my life. I still can't
figure out how people can understand to make chemicals and such by mixing
molecules up, or how they can figure out what things are made of by
breaking them down. I never really understood it, it was some sort of
abstract thing. I always did well in math, sort of, but I really didn't
understand Algebra I. Fortunately, I had taken enough Pre-Algebra to get
some of it, enough to get a C. Algebra II, though, was good because I
had a great teacher who made sure we all understood it. But it isn't
anything I remember now, because I couldn't figure out how to use it in
my life. The only math I really loved was Geometry. I always felt like
people who understood higher math and science were somehow more
intelligent than I. I thought I was somehow inferior to them. All I
remember about Trigonometry was "a" squared plus "b" squared equals "c"
squared. I remember that because it was something I could understand,
how to find the length of the "slanty-side" of a right triangle, like a
secret solving a puzzle or a riddle(I don't know if it applied to other
types of triangles,ouch, my brain just cramped). I was much more into
Biology and Physiology, because these were things I could actually see
and measure with my eyes. I remember a boy in Trig who would say, "What
does this have to do with anything in my life?"
Bonni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sharon childs

I simply meant that I am excited by the fact that her reading has improved
so much and I hope that she will also progress in math. There is not even a
time frame here.

Public school, homeschool, or unschool. Name it, label it, whatever. I
don't care if I am called an unschooler or not. What I care about is this
child learning. This is not about me, my "title" or the "title" of what I
do. The whole reason I am here is to benefit the child. If she enjoys
workbooks, hooray, she can do workbooks. If she doesn't she doesn't have
to. But I am not going to "limit" her just because it might make me look
like I am not a "true" unschooler. I don't need to be affiliated with
anything. I can stand on my own ground.

Sharon


----- Original Message -----
From: "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: math experiences


> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "sharon childs" <sugarcrafter@u...>
> wrote:
> > Sounds like some great resources. Thanks.
> >
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <starsuncloud@c...>
> > To: <Unschooling-dotcom@y...>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 7:10 AM
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] math experiences
> >
> > . 'I hope math will be the next big break through.'
>
> I hope you don't take this wrong Sharon...but this sentence hit me
> between the eyes.
> If you're looking for "math", "Geography", "reading" you may be
> impeding yourself as an unschooler.
> Enjoy your days. Surround yourself with love and life and all things
> good. Explore your dreams, their dreams, embrace the world.
> Out of it will come many lessons.....and as you journey you will not
> find that you can put them in subject boxes.
> Math, reading, writing, history....they all interweave and mingle
> making a person wonder why on earth we need to label all these things
> into separate boxes!!!
> Don't look for math break throughs.
> Look for fun opportunities.
> A really fun book that I enjoyed reading to myself last week is "Math
> Curse". It's a children's book about a person finding math in...well,
> in EVERYTHING. It's eye opening to a person like me that has been
> math phobic.
> Read it sometime and you will realize just how math surrounds us in
> every way. You can't escape it. But don't look for break throughs or
> you may be blocking opportunity.
> Ren
>
> > >
>
>
>
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Unschooling-dotcom-unsubscribe@y...
> > >
> > > Visit the Unschooling website:
> > > http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

sharon childs

Yeah that is true. That is the thing that got me about math. Too many
things to *get*. I could do it, but then a few years later I wouldn't
remember it. I took algebra in college 3 different times,,,got an A every
time and now that years have gone by again,,,I don't remember it. I think
if I had ever truely understood the concepts I would not have forgotten.

How can I have a 4.0 gpa and still not understand math? It is a frustrating
thing.

Sharon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tia Leschke" <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] math experiences


>
> >
> >Some of those things I haven't even heard of but of course most I have.
I
> >guess I could start pulling things out that I already have here, that I
just
> >had not thought of in terms of being math things.
>
> Anything that can be counted and manipulated could be a math thing. <g>
>
>
> >Just like I never dreamed sign reading would play such a big part.
Lately
> >Chae has been trying to read every sign we pass and she is getting really
> >good at it too. She has improved amazingly in just the last couple or
few
> >weeks. I hope math will be the next big break through.
>
> Math is more likely to be a series of smaller break throughs. With
> reading, there's a point when you *can* read. You might not read well
yet,
> but it isn't just a bunch of meaningless letters anymore. Math is more a
> matter of "getting" this concept and then "getting" that one and then yet
> another one. Suddenly *this* makes sense, and then something else. At
> least that's how I've seen it happen with my boy.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/20/2002 8:48:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sugarcrafter@... writes:


> Public school, homeschool, or unschool. Name it, label it, whatever. I
> don't care if I am called an unschooler or not. What I care about is this
> child learning. This is not about me, my "title" or the "title" of what I
> do. The whole reason I am here is to benefit the child. If she enjoys
> workbooks, hooray, she can do workbooks. If she doesn't she doesn't have
> to. But I am not going to "limit" her just because it might make me look
> like I am not a "true" unschooler. I don't need to be affiliated with
> anything. I can stand on my own ground.

Nobody cares if you're a true unschooler, Sharon. You can be a
school-in-the-box curriculum user who is here to learn something about
unschooling and that's okay. But we are here to discuss and support
unschooling, right? So your posts will be responded to from that perspective.
If you want to learn more about unschooling and get support for unschooling,
this is the place. Here, on the unschooling list, you'll hear negative things
about schoolish-sounding stuff so you ought to expect that and not take it
personally - just take it as something to consider. The most anybody can ask
is for people to consider ideas that are offered. And what doesn't make sense
now might make sense some other time, who knows? On the other hand, if you
wanted to learn more about how to "give lessons" - there are better places,
I'm sure. Here, the idea of giving lessons is an idea that is going to be
critiqued from an unschooling perspective (or from a number of unschooling
perspectives, I should say <G>). But - please try to remember that it is the
idea that is being discussed - not you, personally. It is hard to hear
negative things said about something WE are doing - especially in regard to
raising children. But, believe me, if I went onto a Calvert curriculum list
and said, "I'm not going to give my child any assignments or grade their
papers," I'd get a LOT of feedback from people who would think that was a
pretty terrible idea and that it isn't the way the Calvert people believe.
Note - this is NOT telling you to leave, I'm sure you know that.

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 4/21/02 4:15 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:

> But we are here to discuss and support
> unschooling, right? So your posts will be responded to from that perspective.
> If you want to learn more about unschooling and get support for unschooling,
> this is the place. Here, on the unschooling list, you'll hear negative things
> about schoolish-sounding stuff so you ought to expect that and not take it
> personally - just take it as something to consider. The most anybody can ask
> is for people to consider ideas that are offered. And what doesn't make sense
> now might make sense some other time, who knows?

Thank you, Pam for that whole post. I hope it is taken in the gentle spirit
Pam intended.

It's *hard* to create a welcoming place that is *also* about a very specific
topic.

Yes, I know there are strong feelings that if "some people" would just stop
telling others what is and isn't unschooling, would stop picking and being
so picky, it's felt the list would be a lot more welcoming.

But there are equally strong feelings that the list will no longer be about
unschooling and be about "doing what works for each individual family".
There's nothing wrong with "doing what work" but it isn't unschooling, is
it? And Unschooling is what it says on our sign.

We need to learn how to coexist civilly so that those who learn best through
example get what they need and those who learn by deep questioning get what
they need.

*You* are responsible for helping to create a civil list so it can work to
meet the needs of all who come to find out about unschooling. You are not
responsible for attacking those you feel are attacking others. Adding to
what you perceive as attacking only compounds the problem.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

Tia Leschke

>You are not
>responsible for attacking those you feel are attacking others. Adding to
>what you perceive as attacking only compounds the problem.

Thank you Joyce. This pretty much describes how I see the problem. If
someone feels attacked by a post and says so, then it's usually helpful for
the person who wrote the original post to respond in a way that clears up
what they meant. I don't think I've seen it happen here, where the
original post actually *was* attacking or even unduly critical. It's when
others step in to "defend" the "attacked" person that the trouble starts.

I like Joyce's solution for when we feel a particular post attacked someone
else. Send your comments about it to her.
Tia

What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

sharon childs

So should those of us who are new at this just sit here and keep our mouths
shut because we might ask something the wrong way or because we might not
understand.

I think you should make a list of things we are not allowed to
ask,,,including words which are no no words.

How can you defend people for jumping all over people who are new at this
and trying to learn. How many out there are afraid to ask questions.

Do I need to ask people to private post me about starting our own group and
getting a couple of experienced people so that we can particiapate and ask
questions without being treated as though we had commited some sort of
unforgivable sin or something?

IF people are so AFRAID that their list is going to be spoiled, maybe you
should consider closing it to newcomers and only allowing the people whose
conversation you feel safe with?

I could have private posted this but I know there are numerous people in the
same situation, wondering the same thing.

Sharon
sugarcrafter@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 5:29 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] How advice from an unschooling perspective
works


> on 4/21/02 4:15 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:
>
> > But we are here to discuss and support
> > unschooling, right? So your posts will be responded to from that
perspective.
> > If you want to learn more about unschooling and get support for
unschooling,
> > this is the place. Here, on the unschooling list, you'll hear negative
things
> > about schoolish-sounding stuff so you ought to expect that and not take
it
> > personally - just take it as something to consider. The most anybody can
ask
> > is for people to consider ideas that are offered. And what doesn't make
sense
> > now might make sense some other time, who knows?
>
> Thank you, Pam for that whole post. I hope it is taken in the gentle
spirit
> Pam intended.
>
> It's *hard* to create a welcoming place that is *also* about a very
specific
> topic.
>
> Yes, I know there are strong feelings that if "some people" would just
stop
> telling others what is and isn't unschooling, would stop picking and being
> so picky, it's felt the list would be a lot more welcoming.
>
> But there are equally strong feelings that the list will no longer be
about
> unschooling and be about "doing what works for each individual family".
> There's nothing wrong with "doing what work" but it isn't unschooling, is
> it? And Unschooling is what it says on our sign.
>
> We need to learn how to coexist civilly so that those who learn best
through
> example get what they need and those who learn by deep questioning get
what
> they need.
>
> *You* are responsible for helping to create a civil list so it can work to
> meet the needs of all who come to find out about unschooling. You are not
> responsible for attacking those you feel are attacking others. Adding to
> what you perceive as attacking only compounds the problem.
>
> Joyce
> Unschooling-dotcom moderator
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/21/02 10:24:01 AM, sugarcrafter@... writes:

<< So should those of us who are new at this just sit here and keep our mouths
shut because we might ask something the wrong way or because we might not
understand. >>

No one has suggested that in any way.

But unless you've read enough to know what unschooling is and isn't, *maybe*
it would be worth reading more and posting less. Or if you're the sort who
wants to ask questions quickly, get your answers and go back out (many are
that way), you might want to consider that insulting those who are trying to
help you isn't helpful to you or anyone else involved.

<<Do I need to ask people to private post me about starting our own group and
getting a couple of experienced people so that we can particiapate and ask
questions without being treated as though we had commited some sort of
unforgivable sin or something?>>

You could start your own group and advertise it right here and all over other
places. Yahoogroups are free if you can handle the advertising. You could
be on this mailing list and ten or twenty others as well.

Expecting one list to be your sole source of information is rough, especially
when you want to limit the type of information you will consider and to
control the words in which it is couched.

<<IF people are so AFRAID that their list is going to be spoiled, maybe you
should consider closing it to newcomers and only allowing the people whose
conversation you feel safe with?>>

There are closed groups out there too, which are just little private e-mail
groups by invitation. You could privately invite those few posters you most
enjoy reading if you'd prefer a smaller group which would focus on something
besides unschooling.

Why would newcomers spoil the list?

Sandra

Fetteroll

So how can we make it work so *both* these types of needs (down below) are
met? (The two quotes just represent what others have said they need from
this list over the years.)

We seem so willing to accept as obvious that children will approach learning
differently but seem to feel we must limit what this list offers to only one
style of advice.

How can we offer a "support group" for "A place where we could tell of our
joys, discouragements, ideas that worked or did not..." *and* a place where
"Folks ... who held up the standard in spite of the torpedos" can offer
their style of help?

So what are your ideas on how to help the list be better? *Brevity* would be
*greatly* appreciated. (I read and think *very* slowly!) *Workable ideas* of
things that could actually be done would be *greatly* appreciated rather
than complaints about how lousy some people are or how troublesome the list
is. (It's all been said before.)

on 4/21/02 10:06 AM, vmpack at vpackard@... wrote:

> I joined this group last week. I will be getting off of it soon,
> unless things change. I wanted a support group. A place where we
> could tell of our joys, discouragements, ideas that worked or did
> not... I got a lot of bickering. It is natural to disagree with
> others. Disagreeing is one way that we learn from each other.
> Instead of picking each other apart, why not take what you can learn
> from each other and let the rest be. Who knows, maybe you will find
> you are not that far apart. -Vicky

on 4/21/02 11:07 AM, louisam1@... at louisam1@... wrote:

> I thank God for the folks who were bold enough to tell me "that's not
> unschooling"! For unschooling to work there has to be a leap of faith
> and it's all about trusting your child/ren to learn. When I first
> studied unschooling my gut told me it was true but I clung to my "school"
> mentality. Until I let go completely I didn't see it work, since I did I
> know that I know it happens.
>
> Folks, like Sandra, who held up the standard in spite of the torpedos
> gave me a vision to focus on. I could have wasted time with lashing out
> (I probably did) but listening and being slow to defend myself got me
> much further.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

[email protected]

The direct and undiluted say-exactly-what-you-really-think approach has
radically changed some people's lives. I'm one of those people. I ALWAYS
appreciate blunt talk - I do not get offended when I know someone is being
honest. I am, instead, offended by dissimulation - by pretense - by someone
acting supportive of just anything, whether they really think it is a good
idea or not. I'm offended by people who don't say what they think, because
they waste my time.

Some people need to hear things in an undiluted form. Sometimes people don't
like what they hear and they leave in a huff and then come back later to say
that they continued to ponder what was said and that it LATER affected them
profoundly. It is a big list and it is EASY to just delete posts from someone
if you don't want to read them. It is much better for the list, to do that,
then to critique another person's personality, approach, posting style,
intentions, etc. If people want to respond, they should respond directly to
the ideas in the post.

Sometimes someone says something about "doing lessons" and someone says,
"That isn't unschooling." And the first person has an "aha" experience - and
suddenly has a breakthrough in their understanding about what unschooling is
REALLY like. Sometimes people just get offended and feel like the person has
nitpicked and is playing semantics games - but that is likely because they
don't really understand the implications.

A possible response to such posts might be: "Woops - you're right -- "doing
lessons" in the usual schoolish sense isn't what I really meant. Or - "You're
right - "doing lessons" isn't really unschooling, I guess we're not really
unschooling." That would be perfectly understandable - not everybody here is
unschooling - they're just here to learn about it and maybe take some ideas
from unschoolers as they see fit. That is okay.

There are lots of people who are offended by the idea of unschooling and
offended by having it pointed out that what they are talking about isn't
really unschooling. I can understand that. It can be threatening to people to
hear, bluntly and directly, that what they spent their whole lives believing
was necessary, what they went through themselves and often put their children
through, was not only not necessary but possibly harmful.

If someone doesn't believe it - then they don't and that's fine. They can do
things their way - obviously. But on an unschooling list where the purpose is
to support unschooling, you can't expect that support to be in the form of
pretending to think "doing lessons" and teaching that is subject-based and
anything else any homeschooling parent might do - is all the same as
unschooling. It isn't unschooling, even the concept of "subjects" isn't
unschooling and people will point that out and talk about why it isn't and
why they don't do those things and don't believe in dividing learning into
subjects, and so on.

Lots of people will come to the list who don't like what they hear. If I went
to a Charlotte Mason list or a Calvert Curriculum list or any other
homeschooling "style" list, I wouldn't like what I heard there either. I
spent time on an Oak Meadow Curriculum list - because there were some things
I wanted learn about their curriculum. But I wouldn't get pissed off if I was
on a Calvert list and I said that I was letting my kids "just learn from
life" and people on that list jumped on that phrase and explained how they
thought that was a terrible idea and that it wouldn't work and that I should,
instead, use a structured, carefully preplanned, curriculum. It is what the
list would be for, for supporting THAT approach, and I should not post there
if I don't want to HEAR that.

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan & Brenda Leonard

If you can all stand an idea from a newbie who hasn't been around very
long....but has survived a few "lively" groups in the past....

it helps _me_ to read everything in my mailbox before I reply to anything.
That way I don't say the same thing somebody else does, and I've usually
calmed down enough to be tactful about the things I do reply to.

Of course, what works for me won't necessarily work for someone else....!

brenda


on 4/21/02 4:32 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> So how can we make it work so *both* these types of needs (down below) are
> met? (The two quotes just represent what others have said they need from
> this list over the years.)
>
> We seem so willing to accept as obvious that children will approach learning
> differently but seem to feel we must limit what this list offers to only one
> style of advice.
>
> How can we offer a "support group" for "A place where we could tell of our
> joys, discouragements, ideas that worked or did not..." *and* a place where
> "Folks ... who held up the standard in spite of the torpedos" can offer
> their style of help?
>
> So what are your ideas on how to help the list be better? *Brevity* would be
> *greatly* appreciated. (I read and think *very* slowly!) *Workable ideas* of
> things that could actually be done would be *greatly* appreciated rather
> than complaints about how lousy some people are or how troublesome the list
> is. (It's all been said before.)

joanna514

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Alan & Brenda Leonard <abtleo@e...>
wrote:
> If you can all stand an idea from a newbie who hasn't been around
very
> long....but has survived a few "lively" groups in the past....
>
> it helps _me_ to read everything in my mailbox before I reply to
anything.
> That way I don't say the same thing somebody else does, and I've
usually
> calmed down enough to be tactful about the things I do reply to.
>
> Of course, what works for me won't necessarily work for someone
else....!
>
> brenda
>
>
Good advice.
I usually do that too. It seems when I don't, and reply before
reading ahead, I inevitably find a post(or 2) that has the same
points I tried to make(and usually written much better :-/ ).
Though sometimes it's good to speak with passion and not let what
others say, impede your thoughts.
It's a judgement call.

Joanna

firemedic219

How about adding to the subject line "Advice" or "Opinion"? No
bickering over "advice." If "opinion" is in the subject line then
have at it.
Lisa

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "sharon childs" <sugarcrafter@u...>
wrote:

>
> Do I need to ask people to private post me about starting our own
group and
> getting a couple of experienced people so that we can particiapate
and ask
> questions without being treated as though we had commited some sort
of
> unforgivable sin or something?

Feel free to join:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingfamilies

Bridget

ps - that invitation is open to anyone who is uncomfortable here or
who feel they may have something to offer there.

rumpleteasermom

So are you saying if my girls want to play with bunsen burners, they
should sign up for a poetry workshop and explain to the teacher that
life isn't divided into subjects? Or if Jenni wants a new cross
stitch pattern book she should just randomly search the library for
it?
Knowing that the world can be categorized can be helpful. It's
believing that the categories are absolute, don't overlap, and can't
be learned in an integrated fashion that is the problem.

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., PSoroosh@a... wrote:
It isn't unschooling, even the concept of "subjects"
isn't
> unschooling and people will point that out and talk about why it
isn't and
> why they don't do those things and don't believe in dividing
learning into
> subjects, and so on.
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/02 9:22:13 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< It's
believing that the categories are absolute, don't overlap, and can't
be learned in an integrated fashion that is the problem. >>

It's not that subjects overlap a little, it's that they are sometimes
indistinguishable. If someone considers poetry literature, and applies no
principles of math or music to it, that is like one thin slice of poetry,
instead of poetry whole, and alive. Without historical context, cultural
context, and an idea of how the poetry was exposed to the world (carved on
stone? sung? recited in costume on a stage? imprinted on a card? published in
a little hand-printed book? in Parade Magazine during WWII?) then it's just
a peek through a little hole at poetry.

Those aren't overlaps, those are overlays. Anything learned well and deeply
is learned in its context, and there isn't a context for chemistry in the
real world that doesn't involve scientific method, morality, ecology, medical
ethics, history, geography, maybe a knowledge of the origin and harvesting of
the natural resources involved....

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>How about adding to the subject line "Advice" or "Opinion"? No
>bickering over "advice." If "opinion" is in the subject line then
>have at it.

So if someone "advises" a new unschooler to unschool everything but reading
and math, no one should question that? <g>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

rumpleteasermom

> Anything learned well
and deeply
> is learned in its context, and there isn't a context for chemistry
in the
> real world that doesn't involve scientific method, morality,
ecology, medical
> ethics, history, geography, maybe a knowledge of the origin and
harvesting of
> the natural resources involved....
>

So when you want to find out what the chemical formula is for salt, do
you check out the liturature shelves at the library?

Categories do have their purpose.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/02 10:47:50 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< So when you want to find out what the chemical formula is for salt, do
you check out the liturature shelves at the library?

<<Categories do have their purpose. >>

I'd look in a dictionary. I wouldn't take a chemistry class, nor go to the
chemistry section of a library to find out what salt is.

School-subject categories have purposes which can run counter to an
understanding that all information is interrelated and nothing exists out of
its own context.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2002 9:47:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> So when you want to find out what the chemical formula is for salt, do
> you check out the liturature shelves at the library?
>
> Categories do have their purpose.
>
> Bridget
>

Yes. Of course.

In a message dated 4/22/2002 8:21:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:

> So are you saying if my girls want to play with bunsen burners, they
> should sign up for a poetry workshop and explain to the teacher that
> life isn't divided into subjects? Or if Jenni wants a new cross
> stitch pattern book she should just randomly search the library for
> it?
> Knowing that the world can be categorized can be helpful. It's
> believing that the categories are absolute, don't overlap, and can't
> be learned in an integrated fashion that is the problem.
>
> Bridget
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., PSoroosh@a... wrote:
> It isn't unschooling, even the concept of "subjects"
> isn't
> > unschooling and people will point that out and talk about why it
> isn't and
> > why they don't do those things and don't believe in dividing
> learning into
> > subjects, and so on.

But- I wasn't saying that categories are useless. I was saying that
unschoolers generally don't think about learning in terms of school-subjects.
If we're interested in bunsen burners we'd sign up to do something that uses
bunsen burners, of course. And if we're interested in poetry, we might sign
up for a poetry-writing workshop. If we wanted to know the formula for salt,
we'd look that up under chemistry.

But unschoolers don't divide our children's learning (or our own) into
"English," "Science," "History," and "Math." Some people do, when they are
new to unschooling or if they can't really accept it that the subjects are
arbitrary and unreal and only done that way for the convenience of schools.
They look at what the kid is doing and they comfort themselves or reassure
themselves - "That is math and THAT is English and THAT is history."

My point was that people tend to stop even THINKING in those terms as they
unschool longer. The kids just learn. Those who keep thinking in those terms
will often try to make sure the kids focus on the subject the parent thinks
they are supposed to be learning when engaged in some activity. So they'll be
at a science museum looking at an exhibit on buildings and the parent will be
thinking this is "science" and keep turning the kids' attention to the
different kinds of structures - to the engineering - how the buildings are
built. The KID may be more interested in imagining what it is like to live in
the different kinds of homes that are on display, and not at all interested
in the mechanics of how they are built.

Dividing learning into subjects is for school. Dividing books into categories
is for librarians to make it easier for us to find them. And, I'm sure nobody
will be surprised to find out that those categories are NOT cut and dried and
that there is often great debate among the catalogers about where to put any
particular book. Homeschooling books are a good example - they are all over
the place.

pamS
Yes, this post is intended to contribute to us understanding unschooling
better or to building a sense of community.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

firemedic219

>How about adding to the subject line "Advice" or "Opinion"? No
>bickering over "advice." If "opinion" is in the subject line then
have
>at it.

So if someone "advises" a new unschooler to unschool everything but
reading and math, no one should question that? <g> Tia

------------

UGH! NO! Oh, forget it.
Lisa

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/02 11:42:19 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Categories do have their purpose. >>

That's been said and agreed with.
Are you trying to say that dividing learning into subject matters is helpful
to unschoolers or people trying to come closer to an unschooling life?
I don't understand why you are having a problem with anyone saying that real
learning can't be divided up into history, geography, math, reading etc...????
That's fairly standard unschooling advice.
Ren

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., starsuncloud@c... wrote:
> << Categories do have their purpose. >>
>
> That's been said and agreed with.
> Are you trying to say that dividing learning into subject matters is
helpful
> to unschoolers or people trying to come closer to an unschooling
life?
> I don't understand why you are having a problem with anyone saying
that real
> learning can't be divided up into history, geography, math, reading
etc...????
> That's fairly standard unschooling advice.
> Ren

I don't have a problem with people saying that learning doesn't fit
neatly into little category boxes. I have a problem with people
saying:

> It isn't unschooling, even the concept of "subjects" isn't
unschooling

My girls just picked up an 18 volume edition of The Chemical Formulary
from the 1930's. Oh sure it has lots of other interesting things in
it from aerosol deoderant to sodapop to explosives, kitchen science to
make-up, but if they were to go looking for it again, I wouldn't have
them start in the cookbook section of the library.

Knowing how what you want to know fits into the scheme of life's
categories (sometimes called "subjects" by schools, libraries and
bookstores) is probably going to be helpful in finding it.

The "concept of subjects" to me, is the concept that there is a vast
quantity of things to learn about and it is every so comvienient to
have them organized. Nothing more, nothing less.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/23/02 8:05:20 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< The "concept of subjects" to me, is the concept that there is a vast
quantity of things to learn about and it is every so comvienient to
have them organized. Nothing more, nothing less. >>

Unless existing concepts are rearranged and shuffled around, unschooling
cannot bloom.

Tia Leschke

>
>So what are your ideas on how to help the list be better? *Brevity* would be
>*greatly* appreciated. (I read and think *very* slowly!) *Workable ideas* of
>things that could actually be done would be *greatly* appreciated rather
>than complaints about how lousy some people are or how troublesome the list
>is. (It's all been said before.)

I've thought for a while that the biggest kafuffles here seem to start when
one person defends another. Either someone defends a newbie whose
questions got picked apart or someone is defending the person who did the
picking apart, generally both.

How about a suggestion in the welcome message (and maybe periodic
reminders) that we should let people defend themselves? We're all adults
(and I include Pam's daughter in that). I know I got my hand "slapped"
recently (rightly) for defending someone. Some people are going to go away
in a huff no matter what we do, and I'm sure they will find someplace else
that feels better to them.

Instead of spending our time defending people, how about answering people's
questions the way *we* would like to be answered, and let other people
answer their way.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

joanna514

> How about a suggestion in the welcome message (and maybe periodic
> reminders) that we should let people defend themselves? We're all
adults
> (and I include Pam's daughter in that). I know I got my
hand "slapped"
> recently (rightly) for defending someone. Some people are going to
go away
> in a huff no matter what we do, and I'm sure they will find
someplace else
> that feels better to them.
>
> Instead of spending our time defending people, how about answering
people's
> questions the way *we* would like to be answered, and let other
people
> answer their way.
> Tia

I'm going to *defend* Tia's suggesting here with a resounding "I
agree".
;-)
Joanna