Farewell
Mary Broussard
This will be my last email to this group for an undertermined length of time. As I have mentioned on here, my husband and I have started a business. We are in start up mode right now, and I am finding that I just do not have the time to spend posting or even reading anymore. I will probably still lurk on unschooling.com message boards when I can. But of course, priority is my family and then this new venture we are on. To all the regular posters. . . I have learned so much from my interactions with you and from reading and thinking about your posts. Sometimes, the posts here have brought me to some interesting places in my own journey, helping me to explore my own process and always pushing me to the question . . .is this how I wish to show up in the world. There have been many mirrors here for me that have taught me much. Anyway, I will always be grateful that this list is here supporting those who come to unschooling.
Mary Broussard
The Barter Connection
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Broussard
The Barter Connection
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sharon childs
Farewell Mary,
I didn't really get a chance to know you but I do wish you and your husband
all the luck in the world in your new business venture.
.·:*´¨`*:·..·:*´¨`*:·.
*: * Sharon *.*
*·. .·*
`*·-:¦:-*´
³´`*:»§«:*´`³
I didn't really get a chance to know you but I do wish you and your husband
all the luck in the world in your new business venture.
.·:*´¨`*:·..·:*´¨`*:·.
*: * Sharon *.*
*·. .·*
`*·-:¦:-*´
³´`*:»§«:*´`³
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Broussard" <livinginabundance@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:37 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Farewell
> This will be my last email to this group for an undertermined length of
time. As I have mentioned on here, my husband and I have started a business.
We are in start up mode right now, and I am finding that I just do not have
the time to spend posting or even reading anymore. I will probably still
lurk on unschooling.com message boards when I can. But of course, priority
is my family and then this new venture we are on. To all the regular
posters. . . I have learned so much from my interactions with you and from
reading and thinking about your posts. Sometimes, the posts here have
brought me to some interesting places in my own journey, helping me to
explore my own process and always pushing me to the question . . .is this
how I wish to show up in the world. There have been many mirrors here for me
that have taught me much. Anyway, I will always be grateful that this list
is here supporting those who come to unschooling.
>
> Mary Broussard
> The Barter Connection
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Elliot Temple
I'll just leave you with a link, www.tcs.ac and say goodbye. I expect I'll
be flamed a bit, but I'll never know *shrugs* bye
-- Elliot, who thinks you people make no sense
be flamed a bit, but I'll never know *shrugs* bye
-- Elliot, who thinks you people make no sense
zenmomma *
>>I'll just leave you with a link, www.tcs.ac and say goodbye. I expect-- Elliot, who thinks you people make no sense>>
>>I'll be flamed a bit, but I'll never know *shrugs* bye
I personally think "Elliot" came here to stir up trouble, not to enlighten.
Flame on. ;-)
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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bugz
Hello everyone,
I'm new here and have been lurking for a short time. In the midst of all of
the TCS posting someone mentioned chores. This is something my family has
been struggling with for a while now and I would love to hear how you all
handle this area. My children are 15, 13 and 11.
We have always felt that they live in and use the house as much as we do
and have a responsibility to pitch in and help keep it somewhat clean.
While this seems like a reasonable theory to me it's nothing but a battle
in reality. Housework is not high on our list of favorite things to do but
there are things in life that have to be done whether we like them or not.
If there is a way to make cleaning the toilet fun please let me know! :-)
Our goals are not to have well trained little maids running around picking
up after us but to help out because it is everyone's responsibility. If one
of them is supposed to do the dishes so their dad can make dinner when he
gets home then it would be considerate if they were done. Obviously we are
doing something wrong because this isn't happening. Any suggestions and
thoughts would be great and if you need any more details from me just ask.
Thank you,
Lisa
I'm new here and have been lurking for a short time. In the midst of all of
the TCS posting someone mentioned chores. This is something my family has
been struggling with for a while now and I would love to hear how you all
handle this area. My children are 15, 13 and 11.
We have always felt that they live in and use the house as much as we do
and have a responsibility to pitch in and help keep it somewhat clean.
While this seems like a reasonable theory to me it's nothing but a battle
in reality. Housework is not high on our list of favorite things to do but
there are things in life that have to be done whether we like them or not.
If there is a way to make cleaning the toilet fun please let me know! :-)
Our goals are not to have well trained little maids running around picking
up after us but to help out because it is everyone's responsibility. If one
of them is supposed to do the dishes so their dad can make dinner when he
gets home then it would be considerate if they were done. Obviously we are
doing something wrong because this isn't happening. Any suggestions and
thoughts would be great and if you need any more details from me just ask.
Thank you,
Lisa
Fetteroll
on 5/2/02 8:54 PM, bugz at bugz@... wrote:
route to that?
Is a goal of everyone pitching in with an amount of work that feels
sufficient to the adults the same as an atmosphere of teamwork?
What if, to fulfill a dream he'd never discussed with you, your husband
bought a new house way out in the middle of no where that had no
electricity, no running water, no conveniences and decided you would live
there with him. Would it be then your responsibility to pitch in and help
him live the life he'd chosen for the two of you? Or would it look like some
bizarre power trip?
Isn't that kind of the deal that kids get? They didn't get to choose which
families to be born into. They didn't get to say "I love a sense of order so
I want that house where the toys are never to be left out past 5PM." ;-)
*We* chose to bring them into the world, into the lifestyle and standards we
choose to keep. We may have chosen a big back yard for them but do they then
inherit the responsibility for our gift to them? Isn't everything we provide
our gift to them? We are providing a life that *we* want to give to them:
the size of the house, the number and type of meals, the separate bedrooms.
Maybe *they'd* prefer everyone slept in the same room so what kind of gift
have we really given? Why should we assume they even want what we are giving
them? Just because it's a gift *we* would like to be given, do they then
become obligated to appreciate it just because we worked so hard to get it
for them? And why do we attach strings to our gifts?
We could say, "Tough, that's just how life is," but isn't that just one of
those things people say when they want to force someone else to do what they
want them to do?
Which isn't a way of saying parents should become the servants of children.
It's just a way of viewing the situation from the kids' point of view.
If we say they have a responsibility, do they also have equal say in how the
house is kept? If they don't like mowing the lawn, could they choose to turn
it into a meadow? If they prefer to have their projects spread out in front
of the TV is that preference treated equally with adult preference to have
them cleaned up?
That doesn't mean the kid preferences should supercede the adult
preferences, but if two adults had different preferences would the way of
resolving the conflict be for one adult to assert power and force over the
other adult to make the second adult do what the first wanted? (Well, yeah,
and we call it war! Or slavery.)
By insisting that the only right way is the adult way, and because I'm right
I then get to force you to do it my way, aren't we essentially saying
through our actions -- since the more strongly we feel we're right the less
likely we are to find any other method of resolive the conflict -- that the
best way to solve differences of opinion is by being the bigger, stronger,
more forceful one? Aren't we robbing them of the opportunity to see real
problem solving in action, resolving conflicts over things we really care
about?
standards, setting how to meet those standards and enforcing them, should it
be any other way?
What if the kids set the standards and insisted you should comply with their
standards and how to meet those standards?
What if your husband decided he didn't like seeing the food processor that
you use everyday sitting out on the counter and insisted you needed to take
it out and put it away for every use. And the only place it fit was on a
high shelf you needed to get the step ladder for? What if he insisted the
garage floor needed scrubbed by hand once a week?
Those sound ridiculous, and yet the standards we set are just as ridiculous
from kid points of view. Kids don't care if the toilet is clean or the beds
are made or they have to wade through a floor full of toys. From their point
of view it's ridiculous to put away things that they're just going to take
out tomorrow.
could put a book on tape on. That won't *turn* it into fun. But we choose
what attitudes we bring to whatever we're doing. We can choose to be less
grumpy about housework.
You can also see what can be done to simplify the tasks. Like rather than
having one laundry basket, have one for each child. That way the clothes are
already sorted. Someone had their house set up so all the clothes were
stored in the laundry room. Brainstorm wild ideas at home. Bring some here
and brainstorm.
It's real easy to say no, such and such won't work because it's real easy to
get trapped by the boxes we live in without even realizing the boxes are
there.
like it or not? Give it a try :-)
Don't we *choose* to do those things because we prefer the onerous task to
the even more onerous consequences of not doing it?
People often equate the responsibility of kids going to school with adults
going to work. But the *huge* difference is that the adults chose the type
of work they would do, chose the place of business they'd work at, could
choose at any time to go work somewhere else or even stop working and live
off savings. Kids have *none* of that.
I think we get a shift in outlook when we realize that *everything* we do is
a choice. There is no have to except dying. Not even paying taxes is a have
to. ;-)
shower I grab the spray bottle of cleaner and a paper towel and clean one
*small* portion of the bathroom, like just the spot between the seat and the
tank, *or* the spot on the floor to the right of *or* left of *or* behind
the toilet, *or* just the rim, *or* just the track for the shower doors *or*
whatever else is a bit dirty.
I also wipe down a *small* portion of the shower afterwards with Soft Scrub,
let it dry and wipe it off later. (I have one of those shower hose
attachments to make rinsing lots easier.) (The waiting part probably
wouldn't work if there are lots of people in the house using the shower so
I'd just skip the drying and just wipe.)
The bathroom is never entirely clean but it also never gets to the state
where I'd suggest drop in guests might prefer to use the washroom at the gas
station down the street. ;-)
Admittedly that doesn't take care of the inside of the toilet, but it makes
it less onerous if it's not the toilet *and* everything else too. So the
only other toilet tip is to get one of those toilet brushes that stores in
the container that flips closed when you stand the brush up in it so you
never have to deal with the drippy disgusting thing.
asleep by 9 (for various reasons). That doesn't have to be my daughter's
bedtime but she wants to be read to at night in bed. So if she's jumping on
the bed and running around at 9 -- which if I read to her then doesn't to
her qualify as reading in bed -- I'm not going to have the light out at 9.
So I say essentially "Please lay down. You say you want reading at night.
You said you'd help me get to sleep by 9." But what I've done by saying
that is turn *her* into the problem. What I should say is "Will you help me
get to bed by 9?" and she becomes part of the solution.
So you could say "Can we help dad get dinner ready by getting these dishes
out of the way?" Or you could talk to the kids and find ways other ways so
the dishes don't pile up and otherwise "help dad get dinner read". Or
creative ways that the task could get done much quicker (like different bins
for different dishes -- glasses all in one -- so more kids could help). Or
if you do it with them, it could be a special time one on one with a child
to talk about things. Make them part of the solution instead of part of the
problem.
It also helps if you appreciate what help they give rather than pointing out
that they didn't meet your standards of enough.
It won't happen instantaneously. If you ask for help, they will hear
commands because they've always heard commands. And for a while they will
take the freedom to say no, to literally say no. But if they do feel like
they're equal partners in the endeavor, and the help they give is
appreciated, they will come around.
Joyce
> We have always felt that they live in and use the house as much as we doFostering an atmosphere of teamwork is good. But are forced chores the only
> and have a responsibility to pitch in and help keep it somewhat clean.
route to that?
Is a goal of everyone pitching in with an amount of work that feels
sufficient to the adults the same as an atmosphere of teamwork?
What if, to fulfill a dream he'd never discussed with you, your husband
bought a new house way out in the middle of no where that had no
electricity, no running water, no conveniences and decided you would live
there with him. Would it be then your responsibility to pitch in and help
him live the life he'd chosen for the two of you? Or would it look like some
bizarre power trip?
Isn't that kind of the deal that kids get? They didn't get to choose which
families to be born into. They didn't get to say "I love a sense of order so
I want that house where the toys are never to be left out past 5PM." ;-)
*We* chose to bring them into the world, into the lifestyle and standards we
choose to keep. We may have chosen a big back yard for them but do they then
inherit the responsibility for our gift to them? Isn't everything we provide
our gift to them? We are providing a life that *we* want to give to them:
the size of the house, the number and type of meals, the separate bedrooms.
Maybe *they'd* prefer everyone slept in the same room so what kind of gift
have we really given? Why should we assume they even want what we are giving
them? Just because it's a gift *we* would like to be given, do they then
become obligated to appreciate it just because we worked so hard to get it
for them? And why do we attach strings to our gifts?
We could say, "Tough, that's just how life is," but isn't that just one of
those things people say when they want to force someone else to do what they
want them to do?
Which isn't a way of saying parents should become the servants of children.
It's just a way of viewing the situation from the kids' point of view.
If we say they have a responsibility, do they also have equal say in how the
house is kept? If they don't like mowing the lawn, could they choose to turn
it into a meadow? If they prefer to have their projects spread out in front
of the TV is that preference treated equally with adult preference to have
them cleaned up?
That doesn't mean the kid preferences should supercede the adult
preferences, but if two adults had different preferences would the way of
resolving the conflict be for one adult to assert power and force over the
other adult to make the second adult do what the first wanted? (Well, yeah,
and we call it war! Or slavery.)
By insisting that the only right way is the adult way, and because I'm right
I then get to force you to do it my way, aren't we essentially saying
through our actions -- since the more strongly we feel we're right the less
likely we are to find any other method of resolive the conflict -- that the
best way to solve differences of opinion is by being the bigger, stronger,
more forceful one? Aren't we robbing them of the opportunity to see real
problem solving in action, resolving conflicts over things we really care
about?
> While this seems like a reasonable theory to me it's nothing but a battleAnd when you step back and look at it objectively as one side setting the
> in reality.
standards, setting how to meet those standards and enforcing them, should it
be any other way?
What if the kids set the standards and insisted you should comply with their
standards and how to meet those standards?
What if your husband decided he didn't like seeing the food processor that
you use everyday sitting out on the counter and insisted you needed to take
it out and put it away for every use. And the only place it fit was on a
high shelf you needed to get the step ladder for? What if he insisted the
garage floor needed scrubbed by hand once a week?
Those sound ridiculous, and yet the standards we set are just as ridiculous
from kid points of view. Kids don't care if the toilet is clean or the beds
are made or they have to wade through a floor full of toys. From their point
of view it's ridiculous to put away things that they're just going to take
out tomorrow.
> Housework is not high on our list of favorite things to doYou could put on lively music. You could put on show tunes and sing. You
could put a book on tape on. That won't *turn* it into fun. But we choose
what attitudes we bring to whatever we're doing. We can choose to be less
grumpy about housework.
You can also see what can be done to simplify the tasks. Like rather than
having one laundry basket, have one for each child. That way the clothes are
already sorted. Someone had their house set up so all the clothes were
stored in the laundry room. Brainstorm wild ideas at home. Bring some here
and brainstorm.
It's real easy to say no, such and such won't work because it's real easy to
get trapped by the boxes we live in without even realizing the boxes are
there.
> butIs that really true? Can you name anything that you *have* to do whether you
> there are things in life that have to be done whether we like them or not.
like it or not? Give it a try :-)
Don't we *choose* to do those things because we prefer the onerous task to
the even more onerous consequences of not doing it?
People often equate the responsibility of kids going to school with adults
going to work. But the *huge* difference is that the adults chose the type
of work they would do, chose the place of business they'd work at, could
choose at any time to go work somewhere else or even stop working and live
off savings. Kids have *none* of that.
I think we get a shift in outlook when we realize that *everything* we do is
a choice. There is no have to except dying. Not even paying taxes is a have
to. ;-)
> If there is a way to make cleaning the toilet fun please let me know! :-)What I do is while I'm waiting that minute for the water to heat up for my
shower I grab the spray bottle of cleaner and a paper towel and clean one
*small* portion of the bathroom, like just the spot between the seat and the
tank, *or* the spot on the floor to the right of *or* left of *or* behind
the toilet, *or* just the rim, *or* just the track for the shower doors *or*
whatever else is a bit dirty.
I also wipe down a *small* portion of the shower afterwards with Soft Scrub,
let it dry and wipe it off later. (I have one of those shower hose
attachments to make rinsing lots easier.) (The waiting part probably
wouldn't work if there are lots of people in the house using the shower so
I'd just skip the drying and just wipe.)
The bathroom is never entirely clean but it also never gets to the state
where I'd suggest drop in guests might prefer to use the washroom at the gas
station down the street. ;-)
Admittedly that doesn't take care of the inside of the toilet, but it makes
it less onerous if it's not the toilet *and* everything else too. So the
only other toilet tip is to get one of those toilet brushes that stores in
the container that flips closed when you stand the brush up in it so you
never have to deal with the drippy disgusting thing.
> If oneI've noticed something I do that should have been obvious. I'd like to be
> of them is supposed to do the dishes so their dad can make dinner when he
> gets home then it would be considerate if they were done.
asleep by 9 (for various reasons). That doesn't have to be my daughter's
bedtime but she wants to be read to at night in bed. So if she's jumping on
the bed and running around at 9 -- which if I read to her then doesn't to
her qualify as reading in bed -- I'm not going to have the light out at 9.
So I say essentially "Please lay down. You say you want reading at night.
You said you'd help me get to sleep by 9." But what I've done by saying
that is turn *her* into the problem. What I should say is "Will you help me
get to bed by 9?" and she becomes part of the solution.
So you could say "Can we help dad get dinner ready by getting these dishes
out of the way?" Or you could talk to the kids and find ways other ways so
the dishes don't pile up and otherwise "help dad get dinner read". Or
creative ways that the task could get done much quicker (like different bins
for different dishes -- glasses all in one -- so more kids could help). Or
if you do it with them, it could be a special time one on one with a child
to talk about things. Make them part of the solution instead of part of the
problem.
It also helps if you appreciate what help they give rather than pointing out
that they didn't meet your standards of enough.
It won't happen instantaneously. If you ask for help, they will hear
commands because they've always heard commands. And for a while they will
take the freedom to say no, to literally say no. But if they do feel like
they're equal partners in the endeavor, and the help they give is
appreciated, they will come around.
Joyce
rumpleteasermom
We sat down and worked out a chart with daily jobs, weekly jobs and
onetime jobs and extra spaces to fill in jobs not on the list. That
was last september and the list has gotten tweaked several times
since. I printed a new page weekly and the kids filled in their names
when they finished something. This functioned really well though the
winter. They take turns with some jobs and it was good way to keep
track of whose turn it was. A lot of the reason it worked so well was
because one glance at the list showed who was or wasn't helping out.
But, now that it is spring, I think things are going to have to
change. Rachel does a lot of the outside garden stuff, so she really
doesn't have time for the inside stuff. We are going to have to work
out a new list, but I'm not sure how it will turn out.
On the dishes issue, one thing we did was just not cook if the kitchen
was too far gone. They got tired of not having dinner after a while
and it got better. They got tired of warmedup freezer food after a
while. Or someone would decide they wanted to bake and had to clean
to do it. Now they all help keep in down to a reasonable level af
disarray.
Bridget
onetime jobs and extra spaces to fill in jobs not on the list. That
was last september and the list has gotten tweaked several times
since. I printed a new page weekly and the kids filled in their names
when they finished something. This functioned really well though the
winter. They take turns with some jobs and it was good way to keep
track of whose turn it was. A lot of the reason it worked so well was
because one glance at the list showed who was or wasn't helping out.
But, now that it is spring, I think things are going to have to
change. Rachel does a lot of the outside garden stuff, so she really
doesn't have time for the inside stuff. We are going to have to work
out a new list, but I'm not sure how it will turn out.
On the dishes issue, one thing we did was just not cook if the kitchen
was too far gone. They got tired of not having dinner after a while
and it got better. They got tired of warmedup freezer food after a
while. Or someone would decide they wanted to bake and had to clean
to do it. Now they all help keep in down to a reasonable level af
disarray.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., bugz <bugz@r...> wrote:
> Obviously
we are
> doing something wrong because this isn't happening. Any suggestions
and
> thoughts would be great and if you need any more details from me
just ask.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lisa