Fetteroll

Here's what we came up with for the Welcome message and description of the
list at Yahoo.

(And if anyone finds this type of discussion tedious or irritating, *please*
feel free to delete all messages with the "New Welcome message" title and
continue discussing the topics on the list that do interest you. :-)

Suggestions on how it can be more clear are more than welcome :-)

I'll be the first to admit it isn't perfect or elegant. Its purpose isn't so
much to describe the philosophy of unschooling but to help people who are
considering the list figure out if it's the right list for them. It needs to
be both welcoming and informative.

So perhaps read it from the point of view of an unschooler who will feel
comfortable with how unschooling is discussed here to see if it's clear
enough to them.

And also read it from the point of view of someone who may think unschooling
is:

- homeschooling, or
- what the kids do for the rest of the day after their morning lessons, or
- finding fun ways to move the kids towards a parent defined goal (like
college prep or a "good" education or "the basics"),

or any other misdefinition you've heard.

It would be great if they could say after reading it "That sounds
intriguing!" :-) but it's even more important in terms of not wasting their
time and helping them avoid facing "That's not unschooling!" that they be
able to come to the conclusion "Hmm, they define unschooling differently
than I do" before they join the list.

Joyce

===== The Welcome Message ======

Welcome to the Unschooling.com Email Group,

Please take a few minutes to go over the following message:

Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn what
they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling parent
is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning with
curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the what,
when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles to Spongebob
Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or you'd like to find out more
about how video games and life in general are filled with learning, come
join us!

As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website, unschooling is
*not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning nor is it done on a part time basis. We advise reading for a week
or two before posting to get a "feel" for the list and its members. If you
have questions about this list please feel free to contact either of our
moderators: Mary Broussard <mailto:livinginabundance@...>, or Joyce
Fetteroll <mailto:jfetteroll@...>.

The website this list developed from is an excellent source of information
about unschooling: http://www.unschooling.com

This list and the Unschooling.com site were created and are still supported
by Home Education Magazine: http://www.home-ed-magazine.com; Helen Hegener
<mailto:HEM-Editor@...> is the list owner.

Thanks for joining us and enjoy the list!!!

Mary, Joyce, and Helen

rumpleteasermom

Well, I like it. But I think we are still going to have the problem
of those who unschool educationally and those who unschool as a
lifestyle. In other words the chores thing and the TV thing are still
going to be issues. That may be okay. I like discussing it myself,
but we probably need to make it clear that these discussion are not to
include the phrase, "you're not unschooling" or anything like it.

Bridget


>
> ===== The Welcome Message ======
>
> Welcome to the Unschooling.com Email Group,
>
> Please take a few minutes to go over the following message:
>
> Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn
what
> they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling
parent
> is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning with
> curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the
what,
> when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles to
Spongebob
> Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or you'd like to find
out more
> about how video games and life in general are filled with learning,
come
> join us!
>
> As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website,
unschooling is
> *not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of
parent-directed
> learning nor is it done on a part time basis. We advise reading for
a week
> or two before posting to get a "feel" for the list and its members.
If you
> have questions about this list please feel free to contact either of
our
> moderators: Mary Broussard <mailto:livinginabundance@c...>, or Joyce
> Fetteroll <mailto:jfetteroll@e...>.
>
> The website this list developed from is an excellent source of
information
> about unschooling: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> This list and the Unschooling.com site were created and are still
supported
> by Home Education Magazine: http://www.home-ed-magazine.com; Helen
Hegener
> <mailto:HEM-Editor@h...> is the list owner.
>
> Thanks for joining us and enjoy the list!!!
>
> Mary, Joyce, and Helen

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Suggestions on how it can be more clear are more than welcome :-)
>
>
>Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn what
>they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling parent
>is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning with
>curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the what,
>when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles to Spongebob
>Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or you'd like to find out more
>about how video games and life in general are filled with learning, come
>join us!

The only comment I'd make on this is that it sounds like unschooling kids
never do *anything* that other people would call educational. Maybe
changing this phrase, "from mud puddles to Spongebob
Squarepants!" to "from mud puddles to the library to Spongebob
Squarepants!" would indicate a wider range of activities.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

joanna514

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@j...> wrote:
> Well, I like it. But I think we are still going to have the
problem
> of those who unschool educationally and those who unschool as a
> lifestyle. In other words the chores thing and the TV thing are
still
> going to be issues. That may be okay. I like discussing it
myself,
> but we probably need to make it clear that these discussion are not
to
> include the phrase, "you're not unschooling" or anything like it.
>
> Bridget

I don't think when these subjects come up(chores, tv...) that people
are questioning unschooling. It's usually the attitude of the
parents that is getting questioned. To help them think deeper about
the trust issue. To also think deeper about the respect your
children deserve. I don't claim to be a non coercive parent, but I'm
certainly not going to come to a message board and try to defend my
lack a patience, or lack of insight, when it come to requiring my
kids to do chores or when I yell at or punish them for....whatever.
I can feel comfortable doing things a certain way, even if i know
they are not the best way to be doing them, and all the while,
stretching myself to be better each day.
I guess I just recognize the room for growth(no matter how difficult
it can be at times).
I hope that made sense.
Joanna

Fetteroll

on 4/12/02 11:31 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> I like discussing it myself,
> but we probably need to make it clear that these discussion are not to
> include the phrase, "you're not unschooling" or anything like it.

Yes, I realize the "You're not unschooling" is a major hot button for many.
But the new Welcome message can't address the saying or not saying of that
specifically. And let's just work on *one* step at a time! (It took us long
enough to do that ;-)

Helen's clear that she is *not* in favor of censoring. And taking away
people's ability to say that phrase would be censoring.

But just because we can't (and I don't personally believe we should) ban the
"You're not unschooling" phrase that doesn't mean there are no solutions.
The new Welcome message *is* directed at that problem. Its purpose is to
help people realize their use of unschooling doesn't match the list's use.
(It won't eliminate all of them. And if it does we're probably defining
unschooling way too narrowly. But it's a beginning.)

Do you see anything in the wording that would help people avoid putting
themselves in the position of being told they aren't unschooling?

I think we (the list) should feel a sense of responsibilty for the message
that's hanging outside the list we're creating. (Obviously Helen has the
final say.) If people whose definition of unschooling departs from the
philosophy discussed here continue to join the list I think we should feel a
sense of responsibility to inform them better and look at how the list
description is worded.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

joanna514

I don't claim to be a non coercive parent, but I'm
> certainly not going to come to a message board and try to defend my
> lack a patience, or lack of insight, when it come to requiring my
> kids to do chores or when I yell at or punish them for....whatever.
> I can feel comfortable doing things a certain way, even if i know
> they are not the best way to be doing them, and all the while,
> stretching myself to be better each day.
> I guess I just recognize the room for growth(no matter how
difficult
> it can be at times).
> I hope that made sense.
> Joanna

I just wanted to clarify what I wrote.
Comfortable was not a good word. If it were comfortable, i would not
try to change. I try not to do any of the things I mentioned above
in my "bad parenting" example, but at times I do.
I'm much better than I use to be, and I certainly don't feel that
sense of justification anymore.
Joanna

Camille Bauer

But I think we are still going to have the problem
of those who unschool educationally and those who unschool as a
lifestyle. >>

It may and it may not. For me, at least, I have my beliefs but they are mine and no one else's. I will ALWAYS ask questions, and have heated passionate debates. To me debates help me grow and learn, it does not mean I am saying what the other is doing is "not the right way" or "wrong"... it's just that I want to know more. As well I also will give my opinions :)

CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 4/12/02 12:30 PM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:

> Maybe
> changing this phrase, "from mud puddles to Spongebob
> Squarepants!" to "from mud puddles to the library to Spongebob
> Squarepants!" would indicate a wider range of activities.

And it usually sounds better when things come in threes. :-)

I think library is a broad term and mud puddles and Spongebob are specific
so the new one should be specific too. Maybe Shakespeare?

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/02 4:20:52 PM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< I think library is a broad term and mud puddles and Spongebob are specific
so the new one should be specific too. Maybe Shakespeare? >>

I like Shakespeare better than library.

Although I did say people could change or re-do the Certificate of
Empowerment that I pass out at conferences, one group put it on a website and
added "and libraries." That's all they changed. "And libraries." For me,
it deflated the whole outward spiral into the glorious real world.

I love books. I have lots. But too many people think learning needs to
happen primarily in books. And having one's head stuck in a book about
weather while thunderheads are forming and little whirlwinds are going
through the yard is, in my opinion, a Big Mistake. (I read weather books on
boring days, or late at night. <bwg>, Or I look things up because the kids
noticed them and wondered. Or we look at the radar sites online. Not just
books.)

So I recommend against "books" or "libraries" as prime examples or
recommendations.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/02 4:20:52 PM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< I think library is a broad term and mud puddles and Spongebob are specific
so the new one should be specific too. Maybe Shakespeare? >>

Maybe, too, instead of "video games," just "games"? That would encompass ALL
kinds of games, from Pokemon cards to singing games.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>
><< I think library is a broad term and mud puddles and Spongebob are specific
>so the new one should be specific too. Maybe Shakespeare? >>
>
>I like Shakespeare better than library.

Actually so do I.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

rumpleteasermom

If you think libraries are just buildings full of books, you need to
find a different library! Our libraries here are a source for videos,
music cd's and tapes, cd-rom programs, magazines that we can't afford
to subscribe to, internet access when ours is down and many other
things. Heck, I've gone to the library and done six or seven things
and not one of them involved a book!

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> Although I did say people could change or re-do the Certificate of
> Empowerment that I pass out at conferences, one group put it on a
website and
> added "and libraries." That's all they changed. "And libraries."
For me,
> it deflated the whole outward spiral into the glorious real world.
>
> I love books. I have lots. But too many people think learning
needs to
> happen primarily in books. And having one's head stuck in a book
about
> weather while thunderheads are forming and little whirlwinds are
going
> through the yard is, in my opinion, a Big Mistake. (I read weather
books on
> boring days, or late at night. <bwg>, Or I look things up because
the kids
> noticed them and wondered. Or we look at the radar sites online.
Not just
> books.)
>
> So I recommend against "books" or "libraries" as prime examples or
> recommendations.
>
> Sandra

Fetteroll

Boring stuff, but just to keep everyone informed ;-), here's the "final" (as
in what will go out and up but it's easy to change if anyone else has some
good suggestion on making it clearer) version.

1) I added Shakespeare

2) I removed "moderators" rather than trying to describe what they were!

3) I kept video games. Though games may be more encompassing, I think saying
that video games can be considered educational on the list is either up
someone's alley, intriging, or a tip off that the ideas might be too radical
for their comfort.

4) I added after the suggestion of reading for a week or two "since
many listmembers love a lively debate and questioning beliefs to their
foundations" to give potential new members a heads up on the fact that
debates do happen here.

Thanks for everyone's help :-)

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

======== New(est) Welcome message ========

Welcome to the Unschooling.com Email Group,

Please take a few minutes to go over the following message:

Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn what
they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling parent
is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning with
curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the what,
when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles to Shakespeare to
Spongebob Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or you'd like to
find out more about how video games and life in general are filled with
learning, come join us!

As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website, unschooling is
*not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning nor is it done on a part time basis. We advise reading for a week
or two before posting to get a "feel" for the list and its members, since
many listmembers love a lively debate and questioning beliefs to their
foundations. If you have questions about this list please feel free to
contact: Mary Broussard <mailto:livinginabundance@...> or Joyce
Fetteroll <mailto:jfetteroll@...>.

The website this list developed from is an excellent source of information
about unschooling: http://www.unschooling.com

This list and the Unschooling.com site were created and are still supported
by Home Education Magazine: http://www.home-ed-magazine.com; Helen Hegener
<mailto:HEM-Editor@...> is the list owner.

Thanks for joining us and enjoy the list!!!

Mary, Joyce, and Helen