Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Not an unschooler =)
Bonni Sollars
"She said she likes it when I
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she
wants
to learn."
That sounds like unschooling to me. I think if we present information or
a topic, but they aren't interested, and we force it, then it's not
unschooling. If they come to us seeking knowledge about an area, and we
know something about it and talk about it with them and show them what we
know and refer them to outside sources, I would call that unschooling. I
do not think requiring them to do it on a daily basis at a certain time
is unschooling.
Textbooks can be a great learning tool. My boys use math textbooks.
Because they are interested in it. But when they don't feel like it,
they aren't reprimanded or lectured. I don't "teach" it the way they do
in school with practice sets and problems and speed drills. But if they
don't understand something it says and come to me for help, I teach in
the sense that I guide them in a way that helps them to understand what
it is saying. Mostly, they just come up with stuff I would never think
they would think of, and it leads us to search out more information on
it.
I'm not that smart and I can't teach my kids about veterinary stuff. But
I do know a vet who would allow my child to hang out and help at his
clinic. He was a friend of my dad. Hands on is so much more interesting
than books, at least for some children. It depends how much the child
likes to read, I suppose. (I love books, but my son would probably
prefer hands on-why not both?)
"I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling,
working
only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it
sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything!"
First of all, it is about the child taking charge of their own education,
but it is not about work, it is about passion. If we have a job we love
and feel called to do, it does not feel like work, but like fun. It is
the same for a child who is pursuing his interests. As for being lazy,
how is it lazy to take time to listen to a child and help them to pursue
their interests, or allow them the time to finish studying or reading the
subject that pleases them without saying time to stop before they are
ready. I find it takes a lot of energy, and is in fact now a way of life
for me to be so focused on my children.
"After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that my parental
philosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be
useless
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by
someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated."
Only two weeks? Why wouldn't your beliefs be allowed? Just because
someone else doesn't agree doesn't mean your opinion is not valid. We
all have our reasons for doing what we do how we do it. Maybe someone
here would have an idea you've never really considered before. If we
were all shy of offending others with our views, no one would get any new
information. Sometimes our beliefs have to be challenged for us to
really understand why we are doing things the way we are.
"ultimately we are all accountable for our own responsibility that God
entrusted to us when he gave us these precious gifts: our children."
I certainly agree with you there. When I first came to this group, I
sort of felt the same way. Everyone, it seemed, was fighting about what
was and wasn't unschooling. It really turned me off to the concept, even
though I had read some books that intrigued me. However, after
homeschooling a while, I realized that the principles of unschooling made
sense and came to believe they were actually right for my children and
me. I came back because I couldn't get enough dialogues on the other
groups to supply me with the kind of info I was looking for. I talked to
my children about the ideas I was hearing, and they identified with them.
These principles made sense to me according to the Bible, and opened my
eyes to completely new ways of raising my family. I feel that I am more
of a Christian in the way I relate to my children now than ever before.
And all as a result of what I've learned from unschooling. One thing
I've come to learn is that God exposes me to different ideas and concepts
and expects me to give them more than a cursory glance before making up
my mind. I have tested this unschooling method by scripture and it has
been found weighty and true. I have noticed scriptures that never meant
that much to me before, but now clearly reflect unschooling ideas. One
of them is how to teach your children. While sitting with them, walking
with them, etc. One of them is how Jesus taught his disciples, while
walking, while eating, while visiting, etc.
Anyway,sorry you feel this way. I wish you and your daughter the best of
everything. God bless.
Bonni
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she
wants
to learn."
That sounds like unschooling to me. I think if we present information or
a topic, but they aren't interested, and we force it, then it's not
unschooling. If they come to us seeking knowledge about an area, and we
know something about it and talk about it with them and show them what we
know and refer them to outside sources, I would call that unschooling. I
do not think requiring them to do it on a daily basis at a certain time
is unschooling.
Textbooks can be a great learning tool. My boys use math textbooks.
Because they are interested in it. But when they don't feel like it,
they aren't reprimanded or lectured. I don't "teach" it the way they do
in school with practice sets and problems and speed drills. But if they
don't understand something it says and come to me for help, I teach in
the sense that I guide them in a way that helps them to understand what
it is saying. Mostly, they just come up with stuff I would never think
they would think of, and it leads us to search out more information on
it.
I'm not that smart and I can't teach my kids about veterinary stuff. But
I do know a vet who would allow my child to hang out and help at his
clinic. He was a friend of my dad. Hands on is so much more interesting
than books, at least for some children. It depends how much the child
likes to read, I suppose. (I love books, but my son would probably
prefer hands on-why not both?)
"I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling,
working
only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it
sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything!"
First of all, it is about the child taking charge of their own education,
but it is not about work, it is about passion. If we have a job we love
and feel called to do, it does not feel like work, but like fun. It is
the same for a child who is pursuing his interests. As for being lazy,
how is it lazy to take time to listen to a child and help them to pursue
their interests, or allow them the time to finish studying or reading the
subject that pleases them without saying time to stop before they are
ready. I find it takes a lot of energy, and is in fact now a way of life
for me to be so focused on my children.
"After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that my parental
philosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be
useless
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by
someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated."
Only two weeks? Why wouldn't your beliefs be allowed? Just because
someone else doesn't agree doesn't mean your opinion is not valid. We
all have our reasons for doing what we do how we do it. Maybe someone
here would have an idea you've never really considered before. If we
were all shy of offending others with our views, no one would get any new
information. Sometimes our beliefs have to be challenged for us to
really understand why we are doing things the way we are.
"ultimately we are all accountable for our own responsibility that God
entrusted to us when he gave us these precious gifts: our children."
I certainly agree with you there. When I first came to this group, I
sort of felt the same way. Everyone, it seemed, was fighting about what
was and wasn't unschooling. It really turned me off to the concept, even
though I had read some books that intrigued me. However, after
homeschooling a while, I realized that the principles of unschooling made
sense and came to believe they were actually right for my children and
me. I came back because I couldn't get enough dialogues on the other
groups to supply me with the kind of info I was looking for. I talked to
my children about the ideas I was hearing, and they identified with them.
These principles made sense to me according to the Bible, and opened my
eyes to completely new ways of raising my family. I feel that I am more
of a Christian in the way I relate to my children now than ever before.
And all as a result of what I've learned from unschooling. One thing
I've come to learn is that God exposes me to different ideas and concepts
and expects me to give them more than a cursory glance before making up
my mind. I have tested this unschooling method by scripture and it has
been found weighty and true. I have noticed scriptures that never meant
that much to me before, but now clearly reflect unschooling ideas. One
of them is how to teach your children. While sitting with them, walking
with them, etc. One of them is how Jesus taught his disciples, while
walking, while eating, while visiting, etc.
Anyway,sorry you feel this way. I wish you and your daughter the best of
everything. God bless.
Bonni
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that my parental
philosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be useless
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.
I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, working
only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything!
I want more for my girl though. She wants to be a vet and college is in her
future. That means she needs to learn things that are in textbooks.
My own child, without telling her how I felt about it, asked me first what I
thought of unschooling (we've checked out some information together.) She
felt like it wasn't what she would want to do. She said she likes it when I
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she wants
to learn. I know that some of you will read this and think I controlled her
into saying this. Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
accountable for our own responsibility that God entrusted to us when he gave
us these precious gifts: our children.
I wish you and your children well in unschooling, just as I would think that
the people here who can "trust the children to do the learning" can also
trust other parents to provide an excellent education by homeschooling and
wish me well also. I sense though, after being onlist here for the time I
have been, that the posters I have read really don't believe my girl will get
an excellent education, that she will be damaged in self-esteem and be robbed
of a love of learning, and that is sad.
When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room for Big Brother
to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it is against the
will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.
Kristine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
philosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be useless
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.
I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, working
only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything!
I want more for my girl though. She wants to be a vet and college is in her
future. That means she needs to learn things that are in textbooks.
My own child, without telling her how I felt about it, asked me first what I
thought of unschooling (we've checked out some information together.) She
felt like it wasn't what she would want to do. She said she likes it when I
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she wants
to learn. I know that some of you will read this and think I controlled her
into saying this. Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
accountable for our own responsibility that God entrusted to us when he gave
us these precious gifts: our children.
I wish you and your children well in unschooling, just as I would think that
the people here who can "trust the children to do the learning" can also
trust other parents to provide an excellent education by homeschooling and
wish me well also. I sense though, after being onlist here for the time I
have been, that the posters I have read really don't believe my girl will get
an excellent education, that she will be damaged in self-esteem and be robbed
of a love of learning, and that is sad.
When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room for Big Brother
to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it is against the
will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.
Kristine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kate
Bravo!
The first voice of reason in this whole debate. I could have written this
myself, and I greatly appreciate your courage in posting Kristine.
My daughter is also working towards becoming a vet, and works hard, asking
constantly for more resources and information and guidance. I applaud you
for your viewpoint.
Blessings
Kate (whose new sig line just might be-----
The first voice of reason in this whole debate. I could have written this
myself, and I greatly appreciate your courage in posting Kristine.
My daughter is also working towards becoming a vet, and works hard, asking
constantly for more resources and information and guidance. I applaud you
for your viewpoint.
Blessings
Kate (whose new sig line just might be-----
> When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room for BigBrother
> to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it is againstthe
> will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell. )
Joan Wilson
Dear Kristine:
I believe the way you and your daughter are seeing to her education is right
for you and her.
Unschooling, like Homeschooling or private schooling or public schooling is
the right thing for some people, not for all people. I have known people
that have thrived in each and every one of those at some time in their
lives.
I wish you and your daughter all the best. And I hope that in the future I
have the opportunity to hear what you are doing or she is doing or some of
the insights you have picked up along your journey. I am sure that there
will be all kinds of things that you could share with us, your joys, your
experiences, what are some of the things you both have learned or how
something has been learned.
I have found that in public school, ISPs, Homeschooling or Unschooling there
is no right way or wrong way, everyone does it their way - just like
parenting and living and learning :).
Thank you for your well wishes and I in return also wish you well. I know
you will do the best for your daughter. You obviously love her very much to
take the time to see to it that she gets the most out of her education.
Fare the well on these seas,
Joan
-----Original Message-----
From: balikris@... [mailto:balikris@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Not an unschooler =)
After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that my parental
philosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be useless
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.
I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, working
only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it
sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything!
I want more for my girl though. She wants to be a vet and college is in
her
future. That means she needs to learn things that are in textbooks.
My own child, without telling her how I felt about it, asked me first what
I
thought of unschooling (we've checked out some information together.) She
felt like it wasn't what she would want to do. She said she likes it when
I
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she
wants
to learn. I know that some of you will read this and think I controlled
her
into saying this. Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
accountable for our own responsibility that God entrusted to us when he
gave
us these precious gifts: our children.
I wish you and your children well in unschooling, just as I would think
that
the people here who can "trust the children to do the learning" can also
trust other parents to provide an excellent education by homeschooling and
wish me well also. I sense though, after being onlist here for the time I
have been, that the posters I have read really don't believe my girl will
get
an excellent education, that she will be damaged in self-esteem and be
robbed
of a love of learning, and that is sad.
When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room for Big
Brother
to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it is against
the
will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.
Kristine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I believe the way you and your daughter are seeing to her education is right
for you and her.
Unschooling, like Homeschooling or private schooling or public schooling is
the right thing for some people, not for all people. I have known people
that have thrived in each and every one of those at some time in their
lives.
I wish you and your daughter all the best. And I hope that in the future I
have the opportunity to hear what you are doing or she is doing or some of
the insights you have picked up along your journey. I am sure that there
will be all kinds of things that you could share with us, your joys, your
experiences, what are some of the things you both have learned or how
something has been learned.
I have found that in public school, ISPs, Homeschooling or Unschooling there
is no right way or wrong way, everyone does it their way - just like
parenting and living and learning :).
Thank you for your well wishes and I in return also wish you well. I know
you will do the best for your daughter. You obviously love her very much to
take the time to see to it that she gets the most out of her education.
Fare the well on these seas,
Joan
-----Original Message-----
From: balikris@... [mailto:balikris@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Not an unschooler =)
After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that my parental
philosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be useless
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.
I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, working
only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it
sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything!
I want more for my girl though. She wants to be a vet and college is in
her
future. That means she needs to learn things that are in textbooks.
My own child, without telling her how I felt about it, asked me first what
I
thought of unschooling (we've checked out some information together.) She
felt like it wasn't what she would want to do. She said she likes it when
I
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she
wants
to learn. I know that some of you will read this and think I controlled
her
into saying this. Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
accountable for our own responsibility that God entrusted to us when he
gave
us these precious gifts: our children.
I wish you and your children well in unschooling, just as I would think
that
the people here who can "trust the children to do the learning" can also
trust other parents to provide an excellent education by homeschooling and
wish me well also. I sense though, after being onlist here for the time I
have been, that the posters I have read really don't believe my girl will
get
an excellent education, that she will be damaged in self-esteem and be
robbed
of a love of learning, and that is sad.
When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room for Big
Brother
to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it is against
the
will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.
Kristine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that my parentalphilosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be useless
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.<<
Stating your feelings or beliefs here would be allowed, of course, and
probably appreciated by some people and not by others <G>. If you wrote
posts here, criticising unschooling, you'd probably get some pretty strong
reactions defending it. If you asked questions, you'd be more likely to get
honest but reasoned responses.
Even people who don't like the idea of unschooling and have no interest in
doing it themselves sometimes like to hang out with unschoolers because
unschoolers tend to be passionate and interesting (if sometimes rather
contentious) people who have LOTS of ideas. Unschoolers don't usually mind
other homeschoolers hangin' out with them but don't like to have to defend
themselves and justify their unschooling and can be pretty sensitive to
insinuations that they are depriving their children of an adequate education
or are lazy, etc.
>>I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, workingonly on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it
sure would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything! I want more for my girl though. <<
:::::Ignoring the implication that unschooling parents hardly do anything,
that we're lazy and want less for our kids.:::::
>> She wants to be a vet and college is in her future. That means she needsto learn things that are in textbooks.<<
My unschooled 14 and 17 yo's both go to college now. The 17 yo has completed
60-something units and has a 3.8+ grade point average.
>>My own child, without telling her how I felt about it, asked me first whatI thought of unschooling (we've checked out some information together.) She
felt like it wasn't what she would want to do. She said she likes it when I
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she wants
to learn. I know that some of you will read this and think I controlled her
into saying this. Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
accountable for our own responsibility that God entrusted to us when he gave
us these precious gifts: our children.>>
I don't think you controlled her into saying it - I think she probably can't
envision how it would work, though. It is HARD to really catch that
"unschooling vision." It is SO different than the way we've always thought
about learning. For example, the idea that she would be prevented from
learning what she needs to learn to go to vet school is wrong. Truth is, if
she has a goal of vet school and knows that she needs to study certain
subjects to make that happen, then that is exactly what an unschooling kid
would do. And they'd get help from parents and other adults to teach them or
help them get the resources they need to learn what they need to learn to
achieve their goals. Parents don't sit back and do NOTHING. They pay close
attention and interact and discuss and offer resources and information and
help and support.
It also sounds like she didn't think you could "teach" her anything if she
unschooled.
Just to help clarify that unschooling parents and other adults and other kids
often "teach" things, my kids and I spent well over an hour today with me
explaining our political system to them - in greater detail than we've ever
done before - and they asked a lot of questions and I answered the best I
could and then came home and got on the internet and looked up more answers.
And, my younger two kids and I went out to breakfast and we sat there for
over an hour talking about probability theory -- starting with one daughter
pondering how to figure out the probability that you'd roll five dice and get
the same number on all of them (we'd been playing Yahtzee earlier). I'm a
statistician and I taught them all about probability, writing on napkins, and
then we moved on to hypothesis testing and got well into stuff that I teach
my college students. They were interested - I wouldn't have kept going if
they weren't.
The difference is that I didn't plan this in advance - today wasn't scheduled
as the day for government and statistics lessons. It was scheduled as "go out
to breakfast and talk about whatever comes up" day <G>. And there won't be
any test. What they got out of it, they got. It'll add up with other stuff
they learn and they'll continue to amaze me with how well they connect things
and integrate new ideas. My daughter taught ME something today too -- she
gave me a nice lecture about Pluto and the debate about whether it ought to
be classified as a planet or asteroid. She knew a LOT and I had never even
heard of the debate. I also looked that up when we got home and her facts
were correct - there is stuff all over the internet about it, but I just had
never noticed. Teaching happens! <G>
>>I wish you and your children well in unschooling, just as I would thinkthat the people here who can "trust the children to do the learning" can also
trust other parents to provide an excellent education by homeschooling and
wish me well also. <<
I wish everybody well. Honestly.
>>I sense though, after being onlist here for the time I have been, that theposters I have read really don't believe my girl will get an excellent
education, that she will be damaged in self-esteem and be robbed of a love
of learning, and that is sad.<<
Kristine, if we didn't think unschooling was better, we'd do what we DID
think was better, wouldn't we? You think your way is better, so you're going
to do that, right? Although this is a list where you're going to hear
unschooling defended, I'm sure that there are people who think unschooling is
damaging our kids. Someone just TODAY told me they thought that unschooled
kids don't learn to take direction from others and that that will hurt them
in the future. I don't agree, obviously, but that's their opinion. It can be
discomfitting to read other peoples' negative opinions about what we choose
to do, but there will always be people who disagree with our choices and it
doesn't hurt us to give them some consideration even if we continue to feel
confident moving in our own different direction.
>>When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room for BigBrother to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it is
against
the will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.<<
I don't entirely follow this - I mean, no unschooler thinks unschooling is
the only way - we see other ways all around us all the time. Also, forcing
people to unschool against their will is a contradiction in terms. Can't be
done. If you meant that we might think it is the only RIGHT way - that is a
trickier question. For me, it isn't a matter of what is right or wrong, but
that I think unschooling is more in line with the nature of how most children
would learn best IF they started early and if the parents could handle it.
But I don't think that's realistic for most families and I would not say that
unschooling is the best way for everyone. What I would say is simply that it
is possible - that nobody HAS to do "school-at-home" if they don't want to.
It is possible to NOT do schoolish stuff and the kids can still live
wonderful, learning, enriched, stimulating lives and they can go on to become
happy, competent adults and achieve success in ANY way they define it
(including going to college and professional schools, etc, if that is their
goal). Nothing is ruled OUT by unschooling.
--pamS
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., PSoroosh@a... wrote:
the thought. Most of the posting here tells what NOT to do. I'd love
to hear more of what you all DO do, like the parts of this post that
followed this statement.
At the moment my girls are wrapped up in morse code and not much else
is going on here or I'd give more examples.
Bridget
>anything,
> :::::Ignoring the implication that unschooling parents hardly do
> that we're lazy and want less for our kids.:::::Istead of ignoring this implication, lets look at how she arrived at
the thought. Most of the posting here tells what NOT to do. I'd love
to hear more of what you all DO do, like the parts of this post that
followed this statement.
At the moment my girls are wrapped up in morse code and not much else
is going on here or I'd give more examples.
Bridget
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., balikris@a... wrote:
Learning things in text books is not against the unschooling
philosophy. If a child wants to learn something or has decided on a
future goal; any way they choose to follow up, should be respected.
to teach them stuff too. I offer all the time. So does my husband
and my mom and lots of people who know things that they don't.
My dd wants to be an actor/director(among some other things). I help
her in that goal, by finding plays in the area she can do, taking her
to performances, finding books she may like....as she gets older,
we'll start talking more about where she wants to go with this, and
I'll help her find other resources.
<<Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
<<I sense though, after being onlist here for the time I
Many people think that about our choice of education. I'm confident
in what we are doing, and others opinions, especially ignorant
opinions, don't bother me.
but I certainly wouldn't mind if *more* people thought like I do.
It's okay if you don't. None of my friends think like I do either.
I'm use to it.
That's why I love this board and unschooling.com.
Joanna
> After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that myparental
> philosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would beuseless
> for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before bysomeone
> else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.working
> I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling,
> only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boyit sure
> would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to dohardly
> anything!>>You have formed an inaccuarate impression.
> I want more for my girl though. She wants to be a vet and collegeis in her
> future. That means she needs to learn things that are intextbooks.>>>
Learning things in text books is not against the unschooling
philosophy. If a child wants to learn something or has decided on a
future goal; any way they choose to follow up, should be respected.
> My own child, without telling her how I felt about it, asked mefirst what I
> thought of unschooling (we've checked out some informationtogether.) She
> felt like it wasn't what she would want to do. She said she likesit when I
> teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuffshe wants
> to learn. I know that some of you will read this and think Icontrolled her
> into saying this.>>>I don't think you controlled her into saying that. My kids like me
to teach them stuff too. I offer all the time. So does my husband
and my mom and lots of people who know things that they don't.
My dd wants to be an actor/director(among some other things). I help
her in that goal, by finding plays in the area she can do, taking her
to performances, finding books she may like....as she gets older,
we'll start talking more about where she wants to go with this, and
I'll help her find other resources.
<<Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
> accountable for our own responsibility that God entrusted to uswhen he gave
> us these precious gifts: our children.think that
> I wish you and your children well in unschooling, just as I would
> the people here who can "trust the children to do the learning" canalso
> trust other parents to provide an excellent education byhomeschooling and
> wish me well also. >>I wish you well.
<<I sense though, after being onlist here for the time I
> have been, that the posters I have read really don't believe mygirl will get
> an excellent education, that she will be damaged in self-esteem andbe robbed
> of a love of learning, and that is sad.>>It's sad if it's true.
Many people think that about our choice of education. I'm confident
in what we are doing, and others opinions, especially ignorant
opinions, don't bother me.
> When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room forBig Brother
> to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it isagainst the
> will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.I don't think "we" have nearly enough power to influence Big Brother,
> Kristine>>
but I certainly wouldn't mind if *more* people thought like I do.
It's okay if you don't. None of my friends think like I do either.
I'm use to it.
That's why I love this board and unschooling.com.
Joanna
Camille Bauer
Boy it sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything!
I want more for my girl though.>>
Good luck in your endeveaor. I did want to point out, that unschoolers are, in general, the least lazy people I have had the pleasure to know.
I think we can all agree, we want the best for our children.
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything!
I want more for my girl though.>>
Good luck in your endeveaor. I did want to point out, that unschoolers are, in general, the least lazy people I have had the pleasure to know.
I think we can all agree, we want the best for our children.
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Camille Bauer
Bravo!
The first voice of reason in this whole debate. >>
I disagree, I think all the women here have great reasoning, and brillant minds. I may not agree with all of them, or maybe most of them, who knows. But disagreeing does not make me think they are unreasonable.
Just my .02,
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The first voice of reason in this whole debate. >>
I disagree, I think all the women here have great reasoning, and brillant minds. I may not agree with all of them, or maybe most of them, who knows. But disagreeing does not make me think they are unreasonable.
Just my .02,
CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@j...> wrote:
it's relevant to the discussion. A list of "what we did today" isn't
helpful to me, or interesting to me, unless it has a point, other
than "this is what we did today".
Maybe that's just me.
I think it could also be intimidating to some, thinking their kids
aren't doing enough.
Though I agree, stating what you do, do is a more positive way to get
the point of unschooling across.
I think there are quite a few posts being written like that.
Joanna
<rumpleteasermom@j...> wrote:
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., PSoroosh@a... wrote:at
>
> >
> > :::::Ignoring the implication that unschooling parents hardly do
> anything,
> > that we're lazy and want less for our kids.:::::
>
> Istead of ignoring this implication, lets look at how she arrived
> the thought. Most of the posting here tells what NOT to do. I'dlove
> to hear more of what you all DO do, like the parts of this postthat
> followed this statement.else
>
> At the moment my girls are wrapped up in morse code and not much
> is going on here or I'd give more examples.I only like to read about what's going on in unschooler lives, when
>
> Bridget
it's relevant to the discussion. A list of "what we did today" isn't
helpful to me, or interesting to me, unless it has a point, other
than "this is what we did today".
Maybe that's just me.
I think it could also be intimidating to some, thinking their kids
aren't doing enough.
Though I agree, stating what you do, do is a more positive way to get
the point of unschooling across.
I think there are quite a few posts being written like that.
Joanna
Fetteroll
on 4/10/02 1:22 AM, Kate at kate_odriscoll@... wrote:
comes from not understanding how the term unschooling gets defined *here*.
It's unfortunate that unschooling gets used out in the general public
differently than John Holt used the word in his later books. (Just using him
as a point of reference rather than the final word.) So people arrive here
looking for support for what they feel is unschooling only to be told
they're wrong. :-/
But the wrongness isn't in what they are doing! The wrongness is in not
being clear before someone joins about how unschooling gets used here.
If someone is happily doing whatever they're doing, then it's annoying to be
bombarded with questions asking them to dig into the reasons for doing what
they're doing. I hope a new description of the list will be less misleading.
(And just so it doesn't feel like we're doing nothing, I think we're down to
wrangling over one last sentence ;-)
Which isn't to say we can't have a rousing good discussion about why
unschoolers do what we do and reject what we've rejected :-) But it should
be done with people who are honestly questioning, not people who've been
mislead into believing we're all using the same definition of unschooling.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> The first voice of reason in this whole debate. I could have written thisI suspect a great deal of the frustration in these types of discussions
> myself, and I greatly appreciate your courage in posting Kristine.
comes from not understanding how the term unschooling gets defined *here*.
It's unfortunate that unschooling gets used out in the general public
differently than John Holt used the word in his later books. (Just using him
as a point of reference rather than the final word.) So people arrive here
looking for support for what they feel is unschooling only to be told
they're wrong. :-/
But the wrongness isn't in what they are doing! The wrongness is in not
being clear before someone joins about how unschooling gets used here.
If someone is happily doing whatever they're doing, then it's annoying to be
bombarded with questions asking them to dig into the reasons for doing what
they're doing. I hope a new description of the list will be less misleading.
(And just so it doesn't feel like we're doing nothing, I think we're down to
wrangling over one last sentence ;-)
Which isn't to say we can't have a rousing good discussion about why
unschoolers do what we do and reject what we've rejected :-) But it should
be done with people who are honestly questioning, not people who've been
mislead into believing we're all using the same definition of unschooling.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Fetteroll
on 4/10/02 9:16 AM, joanna514 at Wilkinson6@... wrote:
I don't. I sometimes, especially at the beginning, did find them
intimidating.
Being an anal person it's been tough to learn how to skip over them so
others can enjoy them :-)
Joyce
> A list of "what we did today" isn't*Lots* of people enjoy those.
> helpful to me, or interesting to me, unless it has a point, other
> than "this is what we did today".
> Maybe that's just me.
I don't. I sometimes, especially at the beginning, did find them
intimidating.
Being an anal person it's been tough to learn how to skip over them so
others can enjoy them :-)
Joyce
Karin
Pam,
Thank you for being here and for writing this!
Every once in a while a post comes through that makes me catch my breath, sit up straight and pay attention.
This is one of those.
The perfect way to start off another glorious unschooling day! :-)
Karin
PSoroosh@... wrote:
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.<<
Stating your feelings or beliefs here would be allowed, of course, and
probably appreciated by some people and not by others <G>. If you wrote
posts here, criticising unschooling, you'd probably get some pretty strong
reactions defending it. If you asked questions, you'd be more likely to get
honest but reasoned responses.
Even people who don't like the idea of unschooling and have no interest in
doing it themselves sometimes like to hang out with unschoolers because
unschoolers tend to be passionate and interesting (if sometimes rather
contentious) people who have LOTS of ideas. Unschoolers don't usually mind
other homeschoolers hangin' out with them but don't like to have to defend
themselves and justify their unschooling and can be pretty sensitive to
insinuations that they are depriving their children of an adequate education
or are lazy, etc.
sure would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything! I want more for my girl though. <<
:::::Ignoring the implication that unschooling parents hardly do anything,
that we're lazy and want less for our kids.:::::
My unschooled 14 and 17 yo's both go to college now. The 17 yo has completed
60-something units and has a 3.8+ grade point average.
felt like it wasn't what she would want to do. She said she likes it when I
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she wants
to learn. I know that some of you will read this and think I controlled her
into saying this. Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
accountable for our own responsibility that God entrusted to us when he gave
us these precious gifts: our children.>>
I don't think you controlled her into saying it - I think she probably can't
envision how it would work, though. It is HARD to really catch that
"unschooling vision." It is SO different than the way we've always thought
about learning. For example, the idea that she would be prevented from
learning what she needs to learn to go to vet school is wrong. Truth is, if
she has a goal of vet school and knows that she needs to study certain
subjects to make that happen, then that is exactly what an unschooling kid
would do. And they'd get help from parents and other adults to teach them or
help them get the resources they need to learn what they need to learn to
achieve their goals. Parents don't sit back and do NOTHING. They pay close
attention and interact and discuss and offer resources and information and
help and support.
It also sounds like she didn't think you could "teach" her anything if she
unschooled.
Just to help clarify that unschooling parents and other adults and other kids
often "teach" things, my kids and I spent well over an hour today with me
explaining our political system to them - in greater detail than we've ever
done before - and they asked a lot of questions and I answered the best I
could and then came home and got on the internet and looked up more answers.
And, my younger two kids and I went out to breakfast and we sat there for
over an hour talking about probability theory -- starting with one daughter
pondering how to figure out the probability that you'd roll five dice and get
the same number on all of them (we'd been playing Yahtzee earlier). I'm a
statistician and I taught them all about probability, writing on napkins, and
then we moved on to hypothesis testing and got well into stuff that I teach
my college students. They were interested - I wouldn't have kept going if
they weren't.
The difference is that I didn't plan this in advance - today wasn't scheduled
as the day for government and statistics lessons. It was scheduled as "go out
to breakfast and talk about whatever comes up" day <G>. And there won't be
any test. What they got out of it, they got. It'll add up with other stuff
they learn and they'll continue to amaze me with how well they connect things
and integrate new ideas. My daughter taught ME something today too -- she
gave me a nice lecture about Pluto and the debate about whether it ought to
be classified as a planet or asteroid. She knew a LOT and I had never even
heard of the debate. I also looked that up when we got home and her facts
were correct - there is stuff all over the internet about it, but I just had
never noticed. Teaching happens! <G>
trust other parents to provide an excellent education by homeschooling and
wish me well also. <<
I wish everybody well. Honestly.
education, that she will be damaged in self-esteem and be robbed of a love
of learning, and that is sad.<<
Kristine, if we didn't think unschooling was better, we'd do what we DID
think was better, wouldn't we? You think your way is better, so you're going
to do that, right? Although this is a list where you're going to hear
unschooling defended, I'm sure that there are people who think unschooling is
damaging our kids. Someone just TODAY told me they thought that unschooled
kids don't learn to take direction from others and that that will hurt them
in the future. I don't agree, obviously, but that's their opinion. It can be
discomfitting to read other peoples' negative opinions about what we choose
to do, but there will always be people who disagree with our choices and it
doesn't hurt us to give them some consideration even if we continue to feel
confident moving in our own different direction.
against
the will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.<<
I don't entirely follow this - I mean, no unschooler thinks unschooling is
the only way - we see other ways all around us all the time. Also, forcing
people to unschool against their will is a contradiction in terms. Can't be
done. If you meant that we might think it is the only RIGHT way - that is a
trickier question. For me, it isn't a matter of what is right or wrong, but
that I think unschooling is more in line with the nature of how most children
would learn best IF they started early and if the parents could handle it.
But I don't think that's realistic for most families and I would not say that
unschooling is the best way for everyone. What I would say is simply that it
is possible - that nobody HAS to do "school-at-home" if they don't want to.
It is possible to NOT do schoolish stuff and the kids can still live
wonderful, learning, enriched, stimulating lives and they can go on to become
happy, competent adults and achieve success in ANY way they define it
(including going to college and professional schools, etc, if that is their
goal). Nothing is ruled OUT by unschooling.
--pamS
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you for being here and for writing this!
Every once in a while a post comes through that makes me catch my breath, sit up straight and pay attention.
This is one of those.
The perfect way to start off another glorious unschooling day! :-)
Karin
PSoroosh@... wrote:
>>After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that my parentalphilosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be useless
for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by someone
else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.<<
Stating your feelings or beliefs here would be allowed, of course, and
probably appreciated by some people and not by others <G>. If you wrote
posts here, criticising unschooling, you'd probably get some pretty strong
reactions defending it. If you asked questions, you'd be more likely to get
honest but reasoned responses.
Even people who don't like the idea of unschooling and have no interest in
doing it themselves sometimes like to hang out with unschoolers because
unschoolers tend to be passionate and interesting (if sometimes rather
contentious) people who have LOTS of ideas. Unschoolers don't usually mind
other homeschoolers hangin' out with them but don't like to have to defend
themselves and justify their unschooling and can be pretty sensitive to
insinuations that they are depriving their children of an adequate education
or are lazy, etc.
>>I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, workingonly on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it
sure would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything! I want more for my girl though. <<
:::::Ignoring the implication that unschooling parents hardly do anything,
that we're lazy and want less for our kids.:::::
>> She wants to be a vet and college is in her future. That means she needsto learn things that are in textbooks.<<
My unschooled 14 and 17 yo's both go to college now. The 17 yo has completed
60-something units and has a 3.8+ grade point average.
>>My own child, without telling her how I felt about it, asked me first whatI thought of unschooling (we've checked out some information together.) She
felt like it wasn't what she would want to do. She said she likes it when I
teach her things because I'm smart and I know about a lot of stuff she wants
to learn. I know that some of you will read this and think I controlled her
into saying this. Doesn't matter to me because ultimately we are all
accountable for our own responsibility that God entrusted to us when he gave
us these precious gifts: our children.>>
I don't think you controlled her into saying it - I think she probably can't
envision how it would work, though. It is HARD to really catch that
"unschooling vision." It is SO different than the way we've always thought
about learning. For example, the idea that she would be prevented from
learning what she needs to learn to go to vet school is wrong. Truth is, if
she has a goal of vet school and knows that she needs to study certain
subjects to make that happen, then that is exactly what an unschooling kid
would do. And they'd get help from parents and other adults to teach them or
help them get the resources they need to learn what they need to learn to
achieve their goals. Parents don't sit back and do NOTHING. They pay close
attention and interact and discuss and offer resources and information and
help and support.
It also sounds like she didn't think you could "teach" her anything if she
unschooled.
Just to help clarify that unschooling parents and other adults and other kids
often "teach" things, my kids and I spent well over an hour today with me
explaining our political system to them - in greater detail than we've ever
done before - and they asked a lot of questions and I answered the best I
could and then came home and got on the internet and looked up more answers.
And, my younger two kids and I went out to breakfast and we sat there for
over an hour talking about probability theory -- starting with one daughter
pondering how to figure out the probability that you'd roll five dice and get
the same number on all of them (we'd been playing Yahtzee earlier). I'm a
statistician and I taught them all about probability, writing on napkins, and
then we moved on to hypothesis testing and got well into stuff that I teach
my college students. They were interested - I wouldn't have kept going if
they weren't.
The difference is that I didn't plan this in advance - today wasn't scheduled
as the day for government and statistics lessons. It was scheduled as "go out
to breakfast and talk about whatever comes up" day <G>. And there won't be
any test. What they got out of it, they got. It'll add up with other stuff
they learn and they'll continue to amaze me with how well they connect things
and integrate new ideas. My daughter taught ME something today too -- she
gave me a nice lecture about Pluto and the debate about whether it ought to
be classified as a planet or asteroid. She knew a LOT and I had never even
heard of the debate. I also looked that up when we got home and her facts
were correct - there is stuff all over the internet about it, but I just had
never noticed. Teaching happens! <G>
>>I wish you and your children well in unschooling, just as I would thinkthat the people here who can "trust the children to do the learning" can also
trust other parents to provide an excellent education by homeschooling and
wish me well also. <<
I wish everybody well. Honestly.
>>I sense though, after being onlist here for the time I have been, that theposters I have read really don't believe my girl will get an excellent
education, that she will be damaged in self-esteem and be robbed of a love
of learning, and that is sad.<<
Kristine, if we didn't think unschooling was better, we'd do what we DID
think was better, wouldn't we? You think your way is better, so you're going
to do that, right? Although this is a list where you're going to hear
unschooling defended, I'm sure that there are people who think unschooling is
damaging our kids. Someone just TODAY told me they thought that unschooled
kids don't learn to take direction from others and that that will hurt them
in the future. I don't agree, obviously, but that's their opinion. It can be
discomfitting to read other peoples' negative opinions about what we choose
to do, but there will always be people who disagree with our choices and it
doesn't hurt us to give them some consideration even if we continue to feel
confident moving in our own different direction.
>>When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room for BigBrother to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it is
against
the will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.<<
I don't entirely follow this - I mean, no unschooler thinks unschooling is
the only way - we see other ways all around us all the time. Also, forcing
people to unschool against their will is a contradiction in terms. Can't be
done. If you meant that we might think it is the only RIGHT way - that is a
trickier question. For me, it isn't a matter of what is right or wrong, but
that I think unschooling is more in line with the nature of how most children
would learn best IF they started early and if the parents could handle it.
But I don't think that's realistic for most families and I would not say that
unschooling is the best way for everyone. What I would say is simply that it
is possible - that nobody HAS to do "school-at-home" if they don't want to.
It is possible to NOT do schoolish stuff and the kids can still live
wonderful, learning, enriched, stimulating lives and they can go on to become
happy, competent adults and achieve success in ANY way they define it
(including going to college and professional schools, etc, if that is their
goal). Nothing is ruled OUT by unschooling.
--pamS
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website:
http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Helen Hegener
At 12:24 AM -0400 4/10/2002, balikris@... wrote:
last few months, problems which at times have led some of us to
wonder if the list was worth maintaining. Happily - for me and I hope
for many others - we've been able to work through the problems and
find common ground from which to rebuild community. It hasn't been
easy. If you've only been onlist for a couple of weeks you wouldn't
know about any of that unless you read the archives, and much of what
goes on here, cloaked as it is in list history and baggage, might
give a person the wrong impression about some of us.
We're still working on rebuilding this list - right now the
moderators and I have been fine-tuning a new welcome message so
people have some idea what this list is about when they join it.
certainly doesn't fit my family's description anyway. Sounds more
like a recipe for "Lord of the Flies."
but it's been in their own way, on their own timetable, and because
they *wanted* to. Our oldest son studied carpentry texts (the kind
they have on the job) and codebooks when he was working on steel
frame buildings in Alaska. He learned enough to be made foreman of a
20-man crew; quit to start his own business two years ago. Our second
son did the same thing when he decided to become an industrial
electrician - he's travelled all over the country with his wife and
two daughters for the past five years, primarily working these days
as a foreman on 15-20 man crews. He picks and chooses the jobs he
wants now, and works locally on the lesser-paying job of DNR
wildlands firefighter when he'd rather stick closer to home (this
year they've offered him crew chief with his own engine). I could go
on...
only way. It's simply our way, and it works for us.
Helen
>After being on this list for a couple of weeks I see that my parentalKristine, this list has gone through some incredible upheavals in the
>philosophy is very much in conflict with unschooling. It would be useless
>for me to state my feelings or beliefs here and, as said before by someone
>else the other day, it isn't allowed or appreciated.
last few months, problems which at times have led some of us to
wonder if the list was worth maintaining. Happily - for me and I hope
for many others - we've been able to work through the problems and
find common ground from which to rebuild community. It hasn't been
easy. If you've only been onlist for a couple of weeks you wouldn't
know about any of that unless you read the archives, and much of what
goes on here, cloaked as it is in list history and baggage, might
give a person the wrong impression about some of us.
We're still working on rebuilding this list - right now the
moderators and I have been fine-tuning a new welcome message so
people have some idea what this list is about when they join it.
>I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, workingI don't think that's a very fair analysis of unschooling. It
>only on their own initiative and only with their own direction.
certainly doesn't fit my family's description anyway. Sounds more
like a recipe for "Lord of the Flies."
>I want more for my girl though. She wants to be a vet and college is in herMy unschoolers have learned *plenty* of things that are in textbooks,
>future. That means she needs to learn things that are in textbooks.
but it's been in their own way, on their own timetable, and because
they *wanted* to. Our oldest son studied carpentry texts (the kind
they have on the job) and codebooks when he was working on steel
frame buildings in Alaska. He learned enough to be made foreman of a
20-man crew; quit to start his own business two years ago. Our second
son did the same thing when he decided to become an industrial
electrician - he's travelled all over the country with his wife and
two daughters for the past five years, primarily working these days
as a foreman on 15-20 man crews. He picks and chooses the jobs he
wants now, and works locally on the lesser-paying job of DNR
wildlands firefighter when he'd rather stick closer to home (this
year they've offered him crew chief with his own engine). I could go
on...
>When we think that our way is the only way then we leave room for Big BrotherI don't think anyone on this list would presume to say our way is the
>to step in and become the only way for all of us, even if it is against the
>will of some of us. That, to me, is public school in a nutshell.
only way. It's simply our way, and it works for us.
Helen
Helen Hegener
At 5:34 AM -0400 4/10/2002, PSoroosh@... wrote:
It got me to wondering if some of the wisdom posted here couldn't be
gathered up and edited slightly and posted at the Unschooling.com
website for people to read. Just a thought...
Helen
>It is possible to NOT do schoolish stuff and the kids can still livePam, what an awesome post!
>wonderful, learning, enriched, stimulating lives and they can go on to become
>happy, competent adults and achieve success in ANY way they define it
>(including going to college and professional schools, etc, if that is their
>goal). Nothing is ruled OUT by unschooling.
It got me to wondering if some of the wisdom posted here couldn't be
gathered up and edited slightly and posted at the Unschooling.com
website for people to read. Just a thought...
Helen
[email protected]
One poster wrote:
<< I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, working
only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything! >>
And another responded:
<<Bravo!
The first voice of reason in this whole debate. >>
First, it's not a debate, it's a discussion about how unschooling can work.
And the suggestion that unschoolers are lazy is made as a parting shot by
many who don't want to look closely enough to understand it. I've heard it
for ten years, and no one who knows me in person or knows my kids says "lazy"
about our lives. We go and do lots.
There are many unschoolers who admit that they once thought unschoolers were
lazy and wrong, but after leaving and trying structure and control, some have
come back saying "You were right, that didn't work."
I don't know whether it's just that it works in some families and not others
or whether some of those who try structure give up and their kids go back to
school or what. Some make it work through teen years. Many find their
relationship with their kids is pretty messed up by trying to make them
memorize and report and test well.
My kids will need to know things that are in textbooks too, but they will
NEVER need to take 18 weeks to go through a textbook, one unit a week with a
test on Friday.
If the parents don't believe a person's interests can lead them to learn on
their own, maybe the parent hasn't looked at the things she has learned on
her own, without a supervising teacher. And if the parent hasn't realized
what she has learned on her own, and so is telling the child "you won't learn
on your own," than perhaps that combination of factors could keep the child
from even trying. Or cause the child to discount what she learns on her own,
and value what she learns from a teacher or a textbook.
Sandra
<< I didn't realize that the kids ran the whole show in unschooling, working
only on their own initiative and only with their own direction. Boy it sure
would be appealling to my lazy side because I wouldn't have to do hardly
anything! >>
And another responded:
<<Bravo!
The first voice of reason in this whole debate. >>
First, it's not a debate, it's a discussion about how unschooling can work.
And the suggestion that unschoolers are lazy is made as a parting shot by
many who don't want to look closely enough to understand it. I've heard it
for ten years, and no one who knows me in person or knows my kids says "lazy"
about our lives. We go and do lots.
There are many unschoolers who admit that they once thought unschoolers were
lazy and wrong, but after leaving and trying structure and control, some have
come back saying "You were right, that didn't work."
I don't know whether it's just that it works in some families and not others
or whether some of those who try structure give up and their kids go back to
school or what. Some make it work through teen years. Many find their
relationship with their kids is pretty messed up by trying to make them
memorize and report and test well.
My kids will need to know things that are in textbooks too, but they will
NEVER need to take 18 weeks to go through a textbook, one unit a week with a
test on Friday.
If the parents don't believe a person's interests can lead them to learn on
their own, maybe the parent hasn't looked at the things she has learned on
her own, without a supervising teacher. And if the parent hasn't realized
what she has learned on her own, and so is telling the child "you won't learn
on your own," than perhaps that combination of factors could keep the child
from even trying. Or cause the child to discount what she learns on her own,
and value what she learns from a teacher or a textbook.
Sandra
Helen Hegener
At 11:44 AM -0400 4/10/2002, SandraDodd@... wrote:
example I can think of. How many of us learned to use this medium in
a classroom environment? How many of us just got a computer and
started messing around with it on our own?
Helen
>If the parents don't believe a person's interests can lead them to learn onI think this - communicating via the Internet - is perhaps the best
>their own, maybe the parent hasn't looked at the things she has learned on
>her own, without a supervising teacher.
example I can think of. How many of us learned to use this medium in
a classroom environment? How many of us just got a computer and
started messing around with it on our own?
Helen
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/02 10:55:03 AM, HEM-Editor@...
writes:
<< I think this - communicating via the Internet - is perhaps the best
example I can think of. How many of us learned to use this medium in
a classroom environment? How many of us just got a computer and
started messing around with it on our own? >>
And how many people took a school-style course, for money, on homeschooling,
and took that one teacher's word for what it is and how it works? People
learn about homeschooling by asking people who know more than they do, by
reading books, by visiting websites, maybe going to a conference and hearing
lots of people, seeing lots of things.
Sandra
writes:
<< I think this - communicating via the Internet - is perhaps the best
example I can think of. How many of us learned to use this medium in
a classroom environment? How many of us just got a computer and
started messing around with it on our own? >>
And how many people took a school-style course, for money, on homeschooling,
and took that one teacher's word for what it is and how it works? People
learn about homeschooling by asking people who know more than they do, by
reading books, by visiting websites, maybe going to a conference and hearing
lots of people, seeing lots of things.
Sandra
Lyonness
my kids are ding various things. My son started the day by reading a few
bob books to me in bed, since I would read to him, then he was working on
handwritting, and it looks like he's moved onto phonics now. The baby is
looking for some sort of trouble to cause, there has got to be a mess to
make somewhere you know. the middle on is watching whinnie the pooh, and
eating grahm crackers.
Bec,
Camano Island Homeschoolers,
Washington Unschoolers,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Washingtonunschoolers/
bob books to me in bed, since I would read to him, then he was working on
handwritting, and it looks like he's moved onto phonics now. The baby is
looking for some sort of trouble to cause, there has got to be a mess to
make somewhere you know. the middle on is watching whinnie the pooh, and
eating grahm crackers.
Bec,
Camano Island Homeschoolers,
Washington Unschoolers,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Washingtonunschoolers/
----- Original Message -----
From: rumpleteasermom
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 5:32 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Not an unschooler =)
I'd love to hear more of what you all DO do, like the parts of this post
that followed this statement.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.342 / Virus Database: 189 - Release Date: 3/14/02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I think this is key. There is so much propoganda about education flying
>
>If the parents don't believe a person's interests can lead them to learn on
>their own, maybe the parent hasn't looked at the things she has learned on
>her own, without a supervising teacher. And if the parent hasn't realized
>what she has learned on her own, and so is telling the child "you won't learn
>on your own," than perhaps that combination of factors could keep the child
>from even trying. Or cause the child to discount what she learns on her own,
>and value what she learns from a teacher or a textbook.
around that it's hard to look at it in an entirely different way. For many
of us doing that has become freeing, both to us and our kids.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Helen Hegener
At 1:04 PM -0400 4/10/2002, SandraDodd@... wrote:
state homeschool law as one of the ways to qualify to teach your own
kids, I suspect quite a few people in this state have. It's a
continued source of annoyance to me, but most people in this state
seem content with that little weirdness so I usually leave it alone.
Helen
>And how many people took a school-style course, for money, on homeschooling,Well, since taking classes in homeschooling is written into the WA
>and took that one teacher's word for what it is and how it works?
state homeschool law as one of the ways to qualify to teach your own
kids, I suspect quite a few people in this state have. It's a
continued source of annoyance to me, but most people in this state
seem content with that little weirdness so I usually leave it alone.
> People learn about homeschooling by asking people who know moreMost do anyway. I learned about homeschooling from my parents. <g>
>than they do, by
>reading books, by visiting websites, maybe going to a conference and hearing
>lots of people, seeing lots of things.
Helen
Kate
>My mistake, it read like a debate to me.
> And another responded:
> <<Bravo!
> The first voice of reason in this whole debate. >>
Kate
Kate
As one of the moderators replied, it is misleading to believe that everyone
defines unschooling in the same manner.... in my eyes it is unreasonable to
state such a thing in such a discussion, while their points are all valid
and well thought out, the issue is, it only really applies to their own
families.
I hope that clears up what I was attempting to say.
Kate
defines unschooling in the same manner.... in my eyes it is unreasonable to
state such a thing in such a discussion, while their points are all valid
and well thought out, the issue is, it only really applies to their own
families.
I hope that clears up what I was attempting to say.
Kate
----- Original Message -----
From: "Camille Bauer" <goddessofwisdom2@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Not an unschooler =)
> Bravo!
> The first voice of reason in this whole debate. >>
>
> I disagree, I think all the women here have great reasoning, and brillant
minds. I may not agree with all of them, or maybe most of them, who knows.
But disagreeing does not make me think they are unreasonable.
>
> Just my .02,
>
> CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/10/02 3:41:53 PM, kate_odriscoll@... writes:
<< while their points are all valid
and well thought out, the issue is, it only really applies to their own
families. >>
The principles of how learning takes place are not just applicable to my own
family.
Very much of what I was told about learning and what I have tested and
observed in real life and in the classroom was told to me by professors of
psychology and education. They were not proponents of traditional classroom
learning at all. They were showing their students all kinds of studies to
encourage us to go out and change the world.
The world is hard to change. But studies showing what could benefit from
change are abundant.
It is impossible to teach a person something against their will. Nobody can
stuff a fact or idea into anyone else's head. They need to have an interest,
a curiosity and a desire.
It is possible for other people to dampen or extinguish a child's curiosity
and desire to learn. Schools accidently do it all the time. Sometimes
parents at home do it too.
What we're trying to share with that small part of the world that will listen
and try to understand is that it is unnecessary to kill natural learning. It
is possible to nurture it and enrich a child's life so that learning is just
a natural part of every single day.
Sandra
<< while their points are all valid
and well thought out, the issue is, it only really applies to their own
families. >>
The principles of how learning takes place are not just applicable to my own
family.
Very much of what I was told about learning and what I have tested and
observed in real life and in the classroom was told to me by professors of
psychology and education. They were not proponents of traditional classroom
learning at all. They were showing their students all kinds of studies to
encourage us to go out and change the world.
The world is hard to change. But studies showing what could benefit from
change are abundant.
It is impossible to teach a person something against their will. Nobody can
stuff a fact or idea into anyone else's head. They need to have an interest,
a curiosity and a desire.
It is possible for other people to dampen or extinguish a child's curiosity
and desire to learn. Schools accidently do it all the time. Sometimes
parents at home do it too.
What we're trying to share with that small part of the world that will listen
and try to understand is that it is unnecessary to kill natural learning. It
is possible to nurture it and enrich a child's life so that learning is just
a natural part of every single day.
Sandra
Kate
Guess I still was unclear.
I agree completely with everything you just said....I havent shared how we
'unschool' in my family, so there is little basis for anyone saying that I
am right or wrong in my approach....
I do however tend not to read a lot of 'studies' and the like, but pay
attention to my own childrens development. I put very little stock in some
professional defining for me how my children learn best, especially
considering that most of them are products of the very 'institution' I have
intentionally seperated my family from.
I may be totally off base about my methods, or lack thereof, for educating
my children. I do find value in this discussion list, and intend to continue
to take part here because I do believe that my way is defined as
'unschooling' however the way I go about it, or dont go about it..is my
business, and may only be right for my family, regardless of some study.
I do believe we are all changing the world, every day. Our children are all
being given a much broader idea of what it means to grow and learn in this
world. I dont think the way to effect change in the world is to afix labels
and tell other parents they are causing damage, if I missed a reference to a
study then it is my mistake...but even then I dont think I would be
confrontational in my approach. I find, much like with my children, the
minute I start with "you are wrong" the ears close and I'm changing nothing
but the pitch of my own voice.
Kate
I agree completely with everything you just said....I havent shared how we
'unschool' in my family, so there is little basis for anyone saying that I
am right or wrong in my approach....
I do however tend not to read a lot of 'studies' and the like, but pay
attention to my own childrens development. I put very little stock in some
professional defining for me how my children learn best, especially
considering that most of them are products of the very 'institution' I have
intentionally seperated my family from.
I may be totally off base about my methods, or lack thereof, for educating
my children. I do find value in this discussion list, and intend to continue
to take part here because I do believe that my way is defined as
'unschooling' however the way I go about it, or dont go about it..is my
business, and may only be right for my family, regardless of some study.
I do believe we are all changing the world, every day. Our children are all
being given a much broader idea of what it means to grow and learn in this
world. I dont think the way to effect change in the world is to afix labels
and tell other parents they are causing damage, if I missed a reference to a
study then it is my mistake...but even then I dont think I would be
confrontational in my approach. I find, much like with my children, the
minute I start with "you are wrong" the ears close and I'm changing nothing
but the pitch of my own voice.
Kate
>own
> The principles of how learning takes place are not just applicable to my
> family.classroom
>
> Very much of what I was told about learning and what I have tested and
> observed in real life and in the classroom was told to me by professors of
> psychology and education. They were not proponents of traditional
> learning at all. They were showing their students all kinds of studies tocan
> encourage us to go out and change the world.
>
> The world is hard to change. But studies showing what could benefit from
> change are abundant.
>
> It is impossible to teach a person something against their will. Nobody
> stuff a fact or idea into anyone else's head. They need to have aninterest,
> a curiosity and a desire.curiosity
>
> It is possible for other people to dampen or extinguish a child's
> and desire to learn. Schools accidently do it all the time. Sometimeslisten
> parents at home do it too.
>
> What we're trying to share with that small part of the world that will
> and try to understand is that it is unnecessary to kill natural learning.It
> is possible to nurture it and enrich a child's life so that learning isjust
> a natural part of every single day.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
joanna514
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Kate" <kate_odriscoll@p...> wrote:
How unschoolers *look* is what applies to individual families.
There is a basic philosophy that has been agreed upon and that is,
children do not need coersion, or manipulation to learn,however
subtle. They were born to learn.
I don't think there are many here who have not done the
coercive/manipulative route at some point. I can remember long
conversations with my dd about the importance of learning
multiplication and all of the ways I went about getting them inside
of her head.
I have been a non unschooler. I was public schooled myself and know
the effects. Now I know what unschooling is about.
It is letting go of all the "shoulds' and "have to's" and living a
real life. Learning all you need, as you go.
It seems simple, but it's a massive transformation.
It took me years.
Joanna
> As one of the moderators replied, it is misleading to believe thateveryone
> defines unschooling in the same manner.... in my eyes it isunreasonable to
> state such a thing in such a discussion, while their points are allvalid
> and well thought out, the issue is, it only really applies to theirown
> families.\
>
> I hope that clears up what I was attempting to say.
>
> Kate
How unschoolers *look* is what applies to individual families.
There is a basic philosophy that has been agreed upon and that is,
children do not need coersion, or manipulation to learn,however
subtle. They were born to learn.
I don't think there are many here who have not done the
coercive/manipulative route at some point. I can remember long
conversations with my dd about the importance of learning
multiplication and all of the ways I went about getting them inside
of her head.
I have been a non unschooler. I was public schooled myself and know
the effects. Now I know what unschooling is about.
It is letting go of all the "shoulds' and "have to's" and living a
real life. Learning all you need, as you go.
It seems simple, but it's a massive transformation.
It took me years.
Joanna
Kate
I am not disputing the basic philosophy at all.
Kate
Kate
----- Original Message -----
From: "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Not an unschooler =)
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Kate" <kate_odriscoll@p...> wrote:
> > As one of the moderators replied, it is misleading to believe that
> everyone
> > defines unschooling in the same manner.... in my eyes it is
> unreasonable to
> > state such a thing in such a discussion, while their points are all
> valid
> > and well thought out, the issue is, it only really applies to their
> own
> > families.
> >
> > I hope that clears up what I was attempting to say.
> >
> > Kate
> \
>
> How unschoolers *look* is what applies to individual families.
> There is a basic philosophy that has been agreed upon and that is,
> children do not need coersion, or manipulation to learn,however
> subtle. They were born to learn.
> I don't think there are many here who have not done the
> coercive/manipulative route at some point. I can remember long
> conversations with my dd about the importance of learning
> multiplication and all of the ways I went about getting them inside
> of her head.
> I have been a non unschooler. I was public schooled myself and know
> the effects. Now I know what unschooling is about.
> It is letting go of all the "shoulds' and "have to's" and living a
> real life. Learning all you need, as you go.
> It seems simple, but it's a massive transformation.
> It took me years.
> Joanna
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Fetteroll
Someone pointed out that there may be some confusion on what a moderated
list means.
On this list it doesn't mean all posts are read before they're sent onto the
list. It just means there are 2 of us, Mary Broussard
<livinginabundance@...> and me, Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...>, (overseen by owner Helen Hegener
<HEM-Editor@...>) reading along just like everyone else,
but watching for wildfires with our hoses ready :-)
And I think someone asked how long it had been moderated: since last
December.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
list means.
On this list it doesn't mean all posts are read before they're sent onto the
list. It just means there are 2 of us, Mary Broussard
<livinginabundance@...> and me, Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...>, (overseen by owner Helen Hegener
<HEM-Editor@...>) reading along just like everyone else,
but watching for wildfires with our hoses ready :-)
And I think someone asked how long it had been moderated: since last
December.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Tia Leschke
>Guess I still was unclear.I'm unclear on when anybody said that you were right or wrong in your
>I agree completely with everything you just said....I havent shared how we
>'unschool' in my family, so there is little basis for anyone saying that I
>am right or wrong in my approach....
approach. I just re-read the post from Sandra that you were responding to,
and I don't see where she said you were wrong. This whole thing has been
about whether or not it's possible to partly unschool. You haven't shared
how you unschool in your family, but you *have* shared that you only
unschool some things. People said that what you are doing is fine if it
works for you and your family, but that it isn't unschooling. Where's the
problem?
>I may be totally off base about my methods, or lack thereof, for educatingI have a really hard time understanding why it's so important to you to be
>my children. I do find value in this discussion list, and intend to continue
>to take part here because I do believe that my way is defined as
>'unschooling' however the way I go about it, or dont go about it..is my
>business, and may only be right for my family, regardless of some study.
viewed as unschooling. You've said you're happy with your approach. It
sounds like eclectic homeschooling to me. What's so horrible about being
an eclectic homeschooler? It doesn't make any difference to me how you
homeschool.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Kate
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tia Leschke" <leschke@...>
>
> I'm unclear on when anybody said that you were right or wrong in your
> approach. I just re-read the post from Sandra that you were responding
to,
> and I don't see where she said you were wrong.
No one said I was right or wrong, I was speaking in general terms, I'm not
having a problem with anyone on the list...I'm simply having a discussion.
Thank you for your concern tho.
This whole thing has been
> about whether or not it's possible to partly unschool. You haven't shared
> how you unschool in your family, but you *have* shared that you only
> unschool some things.
No, I have shared nothing concerning my approach, perhaps you are mistaking
me for another poster :)
Kate