[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2002 8:53:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
freeform@... writes:


> > However,
> > they usually enjoy the more structured agenda, and see workbooks and
> the like
> > as "fun and games." -- Kate Davis
>
> If they're so fun, why wouldn't they be chosen freely? What is the "first
> choice" activity that you deem unacceptable?
>

They would not be chosen "freely" or without "encouragement" because I keep
the workbooks out of the way and in a location where the children cannot find
them and scribble in them. (They're expensive!)

Maybe if I left them out, they WOULD be the first choice -- I don't know. My
guess, though, is that they would rather spin around in circles until they
can't stand up anymore. And it's not that I don't find that "acceptable,"
but it makes them really sick, which isn't in anybody's best interests, so
far as I can see.

Kate Davis
Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
(v) 561.656.4443
(f) 561.656.4344




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Camille Bauer

They would not be chosen "freely" or without "encouragement" because I keep
the workbooks out of the way and in a location where the children cannot find
them and scribble in them. (They're expensive!)>>

Then that is not unschooling, that is IMO controlling, but more of an eclectic approach to homeschooling. It is still your agenda, and this, to me, does not constitute faith or trust.

CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


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[email protected]

various:

-=- I decide whether they should persevere-=-

That one line bothered me too.
"Perseverence" should come from within.
If someone else decides, you're being made to do something against your will
(forced or coerced maybe), not "persevering."

-=-I can't claim to be a vegetarian because I had no meat for
breakfast, I can't claim to be a Texan because I visit my grandparents
there a couple of times a year, I can't claim to be a teetotaller because
I haven't had any aloholic beverages to drink today.-=-

I think these are good analogies, but I must admit being wryly amused at the
idea of being an unschooler is kind of like being a Texan. As a recovering
Texan, an adult child of Texans, and (I have been told) eligible for
membership in "Daughters of the Texas Republic" or some such (handmaidens of
the Alamo and other shrines), I think likening unschooling to Texas is funny
fun. I never lived in Texas after I was six, but annual visits to
granny/papaw, mamaw/papaw were like booster shots for the accent and culture.

I wonder if a few generations from now unschoolers will be requiring their
kids to learn the history of unschooling, and forming a "Daughters of the
Unschooling Movement" and putting old e-mails in a library case somewhere to
show where their great grandmothers learned about unschooling.

-=-My
guess, though, is that they would rather spin around in circles until they
can't stand up anymore. And it's not that I don't find that "acceptable,"
but it makes them really sick, which isn't in anybody's best interests, so
far as I can see.-=-

If they would rather spin til they puked than use a workbook, perhaps the
workbooks were way more expensive than they were worth.

I would like to say kids won't spin until they puke, but I remember two or
three times when I was nine or so, riding a schoolyard merry-go-round until I
puked, and once in college rolling down grassy hills in a park to the same
end, following an expensive visit to Baskin Robbins.

But to this: -=-I claim to be, and am, a homeschooler who uses a blend of
unschooling and
something else.-=-

I believe people are objecting because unschooling isn't something to do
after "schoolwork" is done.
When I was in school as a kid, at public school, with homework and all, I
learned a ton of stuff on my own. But I wasn't an unschooler. My parents
weren't unschooling me by letting me paint and read and talk to friends on
the phone and hang out at the library and go to piano lessons. The fact that
there were more 'free' hours in my life than there were 'school hours'
doesn't mean unschooling.

Sandra

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> I believe people are objecting because unschooling isn't something
to do
> after "schoolwork" is done.


Does anyone but me see that we are devolving into the same old
arguement again?

How about instead of being so adamant about telling Kate she is wrong,
we try asking her questions like "why do you feel they need direction
some of the time and not others?" "Are you really telling them what
to do or offering them choices they may not have considered?" and for
that matter do we even know how old the kidlets are?

Then we could go on to explain that when we started this journey we
had to unlearn some stuff. (Like that life had to be studied in
units. Or that test scores are important. Or that you should believe
everything a teacher tells you.)

But instead what appears to have happened is we've run off yet another
person who was on the fence and exploring this idea. When a different
approach might have helped her let go of the little bit of control she
was still harboring.

Bridget

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@j...> wrote:

>
>
> Does anyone but me see that we are devolving into the same old
> arguement again?
>

I wrote this before I read Joyce's post. Obviously I wasn't the only
one who saw it.

Joyce, your post was very well written.

Thanks,

Bridget

Mary Broussard

Does anyone but me see that we are devolving into the same old
arguement again?

How about instead of being so adamant about telling Kate she is wrong,
we try asking her questions like "why do you feel they need direction
some of the time and not others?" "Are you really telling them what
to do or offering them choices they may not have considered?" and for
that matter do we even know how old the kidlets are?

Then we could go on to explain that when we started this journey we
had to unlearn some stuff. (Like that life had to be studied in
units. Or that test scores are important. Or that you should believe
everything a teacher tells you.)

But instead what appears to have happened is we've run off yet another
person who was on the fence and exploring this idea. When a different
approach might have helped her let go of the little bit of control she
was still harboring.


These are excellent suggestions. I really like the way you have put this together. It offers a perspective we all could try to emulate . . . not trying to make someone wrong for their choices but instead asking questions to get them to think. . . something I bet we all do with young people.

Mary



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Camille Bauer

How about instead of being so adamant about telling Kate she is wrong,
we try asking her questions like "why do you feel they need direction
some of the time and not others?" "Are you really telling them what
to do or offering them choices they may not have considered?" and for
that matter do we even know how old the kidlets are?>>

I can see what you are saying Bridgett. I know I can be quite passionate about what I believe...

I am curious to clarify what the children's ages have to do with it?

CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Camille Bauer"
<goddessofwisdom2@h...> wrote:

> I am curious to clarify what the children's ages have to do with it?
>

When Jenni was six and wanted to bake cookies at 10 o'clock at night,
I had to redirect her interest because I couldn't help her just then.
Now that she is 14, if she decides to bake at 10 o'click, I just say
go for it.
When they were 13 and 15, the girls relied on me for a lot of things,
chauffer service not the least of them. What they wanted to do was
often affected by what I was doing. Now that Rachel drives, they have
much more freedom.
That's why age matters a bit when having these discussions.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/02 8:02:14 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< How about instead of being so adamant about telling Kate she is wrong,
we try asking her questions like "why do you feel they need direction
some of the time and not others?" >>

Instead of telling others to do that, why don't you do that?
Directing others' use of the boards is discussing the discussion.
If you have a better idea than others, just go with it instead of stopping to
declare that you have a better idea than others.

<<But instead what appears to have happened is we've run off yet another
person who was on the fence and exploring this idea. >>

She's not gone. If you have ideas for her, present them.

If we discuss the person's ideas directly instead of discussing how the
person discussed ideas, then we'll be talking about unschooling instead of
talking about people.

If the principles of free learning which many-not-all here have practiced for
many years with success ARE potentially applicable to other families, then
requiring some "schoolwork" and having either a little or a lot of free time
should probably be just considered eclectic homeschooling. And if that's the
person's favorite part of homeschooling, is the structure (whether it's 2% or
50%) I think it's a kindness for us to refer them to eclectic sites or lists
where they can find people who will welcome them warmly and offer them all
kinds of ideas where they can blend structure with inquiry and exploration.

Rather than try to bend the definition of mammal to include birds who walk
instead of fly, they could be given addresses to birds' lists, or a
flightless birds' list. They don't have to drop one list to join another, or
abandon one website to read others. Telling them to pluck their feathers out
and nurse their babies isn't going to work. But just pointing out that they
DO have feathers and that we don't feed out babies worms doesn't have to be
rude.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 4/8/02 11:47 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/8/02 8:02:14 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
> << How about instead of being so adamant about telling Kate she is wrong,
> we try asking her questions like "why do you feel they need direction
> some of the time and not others?" >>
>
> Instead of telling others to do that, why don't you do that?

BOTH good pieces of advice and both impossible to give without telling each
other how to post.

So let's let it drop right here and just do it :-)

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

Camille Bauer

When Jenni was six and wanted to bake cookies at 10 o'clock at night,
I had to redirect her interest because I couldn't help her just then.
Now that she is 14, if she decides to bake at 10 o'click, I just say
go for it.>>

I can see what you mean. I slightly disagree, but that is more of a parenting "style" :)

CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Camille Bauer"
<goddessofwisdom2@h...> wrote:
> When Jenni was six and wanted to bake cookies at 10 o'clock at
night,
> I had to redirect her interest because I couldn't help her just
then.
> Now that she is 14, if she decides to bake at 10 o'click, I just say
> go for it.>>
>
> I can see what you mean. I slightly disagree, but that is more of a
parenting "style" :)
>

So are you saying you would tell her to go for it at 6 years old
without the help? Or rearrange your whole life to do what she wants?

Bridget

Camille Bauer

So are you saying you would tell her to go for it at 6 years old
without the help? Or rearrange your whole life to do what she wants?>>

I can't really answer in definites, but I may try both depending on everyone's preference at that time. If I am not tired, which I usually am not at 10 pm, I probably would rearrange what I was doing. I was maybe I might sit on the couch and read, and when it was time for the oven then get involved... it all would depend.

CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>
><< How about instead of being so adamant about telling Kate she is wrong,
>we try asking her questions like "why do you feel they need direction
>some of the time and not others?" >>
>
>Instead of telling others to do that, why don't you do that?
>Directing others' use of the boards is discussing the discussion.
>If you have a better idea than others, just go with it instead of stopping to
>declare that you have a better idea than others.

Because some of us (me for one) are dense enough at times not to notice
that someone else's approach might have better results. Some of us need to
have it suggested. %^)

>And if that's the
>person's favorite part of homeschooling, is the structure (whether it's 2% or
>50%) I think it's a kindness for us to refer them to eclectic sites or lists
>where they can find people who will welcome them warmly and offer them all
>kinds of ideas where they can blend structure with inquiry and exploration.

As long as we do it in a way that doesn't sound like, "Get lost. You don't
belong here," which is how that kind of suggestion has been interpreted by
some in the past.


>Rather than try to bend the definition of mammal to include birds who walk
>instead of fly, they could be given addresses to birds' lists, or a
>flightless birds' list. They don't have to drop one list to join another, or
>abandon one website to read others. Telling them to pluck their feathers out
>and nurse their babies isn't going to work. But just pointing out that they
>DO have feathers and that we don't feed out babies worms doesn't have to be
>rude.

I really like this analogy. So now when someone comes along who seems to
be more of an eclectic homeschooler, we can just say, "You're welcome to
stay here, but we don't feed our babies worms." <VBG>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Helen Hegener

At 1:58 PM +0000 4/8/2002, rumpleteasermom wrote:
>But instead what appears to have happened is we've run off yet another
>person who was on the fence and exploring this idea. When a different
>approach might have helped her let go of the little bit of control she
>was still harboring.

Bridget, thank you. I really appreciated your kind advice.

Helen

Helen Hegener

At 12:11 PM -0700 4/8/2002, Tia Leschke wrote:
>I really like this analogy. So now when someone comes along who seems to
>be more of an eclectic homeschooler, we can just say, "You're welcome to
>stay here, but we don't feed our babies worms." <VBG>

Ah, this could become the most delicious inside joke... <VBEG>

Helen

Lynda

Oh yuck, could we just make it an inside joke and not a "delicious" one
<<bg>>

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helen Hegener" <HEM-Editor@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 1:36 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Worms


> At 12:11 PM -0700 4/8/2002, Tia Leschke wrote:
> >I really like this analogy. So now when someone comes along who seems to
> >be more of an eclectic homeschooler, we can just say, "You're welcome to
> >stay here, but we don't feed our babies worms." <VBG>
>
> Ah, this could become the most delicious inside joke... <VBEG>
>
> Helen
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Tia Leschke

>
> >I really like this analogy. So now when someone comes along who seems to
> >be more of an eclectic homeschooler, we can just say, "You're welcome to
> >stay here, but we don't feed our babies worms." <VBG>
>
>Ah, this could become the most delicious inside joke... <VBEG>

Good thing I wasn't eating when I read this. <EBEG>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island