[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2002 8:53:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
freeform@... writes:


> >Sometimes, I am encouraging them to follow a more
> > structured agenda, which would not always be their first choice, if
> > given the choice. They know they can say "no" and that I will hear
> them. -- Kate Davis
>
> This is contradictory. First you say they would not chose this agenda "if
> given the choice", which says to me that you have taken that choice from
> them. Then you state that they actually can say no and you will "hear
> them". Unless perhaps "hearing them" just means you'll acknowledge them,
> not that the agenda will change... and in that case, why bother?
>

What I mean is that the agenda will change should I see that they do not wish
to continue.

Kate Davis
Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
(v) 561.656.4443
(f) 561.656.4344


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Camille Bauer

What I mean is that the agenda will change should I see that they do not wish
to continue.>>

Unschooling is about them, not you.

CamilleGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
> > This is contradictory. First you say they would not chose this agenda "if
> > given the choice", which says to me that you have taken that choice from
> > them. Then you state that they actually can say no and you will "hear
> > them". Unless perhaps "hearing them" just means you'll acknowledge them,
> > not that the agenda will change... and in that case, why bother?
> >
>
>What I mean is that the agenda will change should I see that they do not wish
>to continue.

I think that if unschooling means anything at all, it means putting the
child in charge of the agenda from the start, not after you've tried to get
them to accept your agenda and had it refused.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2002 9:59:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
leschke@... writes:


> > > This is contradictory. First you say they would not chose this agenda
> "if
> > > given the choice", which says to me that you have taken that choice
> from
> > > them. Then you state that they actually can say no and you will "hear
> > > them". Unless perhaps "hearing them" just means you'll acknowledge
> them,
> > > not that the agenda will change... and in that case, why bother?
> > >
> >
> >What I mean is that the agenda will change should I see that they do not
> wish
> >to continue.
>
> I think that if unschooling means anything at all, it means putting the
> child in charge of the agenda from the start, not after you've tried to get
>
> them to accept your agenda and had it refused.
> Tia

Hence the "blend."

And no, I don't believe that "unschooling" is "something to be done" when the
"schoolwork" is done.

I can go for months in an unschooling "mode" and then, lo and behold, out
come the workbooks, or the research assignments, or the "required and
coerced" reading lists.

The bottom line is: my children appreciate the "ideas" that I sometimes
"give" them.

Sometimes, of course, they don't. And I appreciate THAT.

Kate Davis
Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
(v) 561.656.4443
(f) 561.656.4344


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

gruvystarchild

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Katedavislawfirm@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/7/2002 9:59:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> leschke@i... writes:

>
> Hence the "blend."
>
> And no, I don't believe that "unschooling" is "something to be
done" when the
> "schoolwork" is done.
>
> I can go for months in an unschooling "mode" and then, lo and
behold, out
> come the workbooks, or the research assignments, or the "required
and
> coerced" reading lists.
>
> The bottom line is: my children appreciate the "ideas" that I
sometimes
> "give" them.

Are you totally willing to let the ideas be dropped? If you present
an idea, or point out something interesting that isn't contradictory
to unschooling.
If they are not allowed to say "NO thanks" and be totally respected
then that IS contradictory to unschooling.
From your previous messages it sounded like they didn't have full
choice to say no. Is this true?
Keeping workbooks or ANY kind of information or tools away from a
child can be contradictory to unschooling......
Can be I say, because I woulnd't leave a $50.00 paintbrush down for a
two year old to use.

I think that unschooling isn't something you do. It's a lifestyle.
And if a parent suddenly decides (after even months) that we MUST do
A,B, C today (figuratively speaking of course) then it's
counterproductive to the idea of unschooling.
Why would the activity YOU deem important suddenly that day, be more
valuable than whatever the child would do without the coercion?
Ren

>
> Sometimes, of course, they don't. And I appreciate THAT.
>
> Kate Davis
> Law Office of Kathleen M.P. Davis, Chartered
> 1400 Centrepark Blvd., Suite 950
> West Palm Beach, FL 33401
> (v) 561.656.4443
> (f) 561.656.4344
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

> I can go for months in an unschooling "mode" and then, lo and
behold, out
> come the workbooks, or the research assignments, or the "required
and
> coerced" reading lists.
>

I use to call those 'panic attacks".
Then one day it hit me. Everytime I stopped trusting my children,
and started pulling out the school stuff, that was a big step back in
the trust they had in me. (and probably in themselves).
I vowed never to coerce again, and when I did that, I finally
realized what all those zealot unschoolers were talking about!
The trust! How important that is, and how you can't reap the
benefits of unschooling without it completely.
Life changed.
I still make suggestions, and the amazing change was, they started
believing they were what they were. Genuine offers to do interesting
things together. NOT a way to sneak some schooling into them. That
took a while. But here we are, with an open and honest relationship,
and genuine trust in each other.
I thought we were doing fine before.
I never forced, or had fights with them about things. But I did have
an agenda and they knew it and did resist it. It was frustrating.
Until you live the difference, it's hard to understand.
How old are your kids Kate?
I'm grew up in West Palm Beach. Graduated from Twin Lakes High
School. My parents still live there.
Joanna

Mary Broussard

I use to call those 'panic attacks".
Then one day it hit me. Everytime I stopped trusting my children,
and started pulling out the school stuff, that was a big step back in
the trust they had in me. (and probably in themselves).
I vowed never to coerce again, and when I did that, I finally
realized what all those zealot unschoolers were talking about!
The trust! How important that is, and how you can't reap the
benefits of unschooling without it completely.
Life changed.
I still make suggestions, and the amazing change was, they started
believing they were what they were. Genuine offers to do interesting
things together. NOT a way to sneak some schooling into them. That
took a while. But here we are, with an open and honest relationship,
and genuine trust in each other.
I thought we were doing fine before.
I never forced, or had fights with them about things. But I did have
an agenda and they knew it and did resist it. It was frustrating.
Until you live the difference, it's hard to understand>>>

This is very true. Until such time as you can truly let go of the apparent need to control the process, you don't realize what you are missing. Or rather what the young people are missing. It is truly incredible what a difference that trusts ultimately makes. Now that they are confident that this is how they will learn all those things they are passionate about comes out, and learning for the inner joy it brings happens continously. I truly resonate with this post and can see so much of our lives in it. Thanks for writing it.

Mary



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Camille Bauer"
<goddessofwisdom2@h...> wrote:
> What I mean is that the agenda will change should I see that they do
not wish
> to continue.>>
>
> Unschooling is about them, not you.
>

I think that's what she just said.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/2002 8:56:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:


> Why would the activity YOU deem important suddenly that day, be more
> valuable than whatever the child would do without the coercion?

One thing that AMAZED me as we developed into unschoolers was that I found it
harder and harder to interrupt my kids when they were busy with almost
ANYTHING. I had slowly developed the ability to "see the value" in the things
they were doing just because they had chosen, themselves, to do it.

I remember recently telling someone a story about my nephew - he was two or
three or so - (he's 21 now) and he was standing, staring into space, with his
finger poked into a hole in an upholstered couch. He was fingering the
padding inside - rubbing it gently between his thumb and finger. He was
mentally very FAR away <G>. It was a sensual experience he was having -
feeling the texture of it. My sister and I were about to take him off to
someplace or another and my sister stopped me from interrupting him - we
stood, sort of held our breaths, and watched him for a minute and then we
quietly backed away and did something else for a few minutes until he was
done and at a transition point.

I had no kids then, but this little incident had such impact on my treatment
of my own kids later. It was SO respectful and, as we waited for him, my
sister said, "This is GOOD for him - it is tactile experience, small motor
coordination, developing imagination, and much more." She pointed out that
"educational materials" existed to give children these kinds of " tactile
learning experiences," and here he was just doing it on his own because they
happened to have an old couch with a hole in it <G>.

--pamS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>I use to call those 'panic attacks".
>Then one day it hit me. Everytime I stopped trusting my children,
>and started pulling out the school stuff, that was a big step back in
>the trust they had in me. (and probably in themselves).
>I vowed never to coerce again, and when I did that, I finally
>realized what all those zealot unschoolers were talking about!
>The trust! How important that is, and how you can't reap the
>benefits of unschooling without it completely.

Exactly what I've found as well. It's been all these discussions about
what unschooling is and isn't that have cemented that for me. I know that
I did damage to Lars' self-esteem and our relationship the times I pushed
learning on him.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Mary Broussard

One thing that AMAZED me as we developed into unschoolers was that I found it
harder and harder to interrupt my kids when they were busy with almost
ANYTHING. I had slowly developed the ability to "see the value" in the things
they were doing just because they had chosen, themselves, to do it.

I remember recently telling someone a story about my nephew - he was two or
three or so - (he's 21 now) and he was standing, staring into space, with his
finger poked into a hole in an upholstered couch. He was fingering the
padding inside - rubbing it gently between his thumb and finger. He was
mentally very FAR away <G>. It was a sensual experience he was having -
feeling the texture of it. My sister and I were about to take him off to
someplace or another and my sister stopped me from interrupting him - we
stood, sort of held our breaths, and watched him for a minute and then we
quietly backed away and did something else for a few minutes until he was
done and at a transition point.

I had no kids then, but this little incident had such impact on my treatment
of my own kids later. It was SO respectful and, as we waited for him, my
sister said, "This is GOOD for him - it is tactile experience, small motor
coordination, developing imagination, and much more." She pointed out that
"educational materials" existed to give children these kinds of " tactile
learning experiences," and here he was just doing it on his own because they
happened to have an old couch with a hole in it <G>.


I am reminded in spades of why your posts always touch me so much Pam. I am so glad to see you back onlist. How nice to have a sister like this eh? I know that this post of yours will aid me greatly with my two year old when I think of it. What a great reminder of how respect works.

Mary



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]