On Again / Off Again Interests
sjulian60504
My son is nine. He wanted to join the local homeschool band. We
said "yes", he chose to play snare drums, we paid the band fee,
rental fees, and as he asked for lessons, signed him up, and of
course paid for the lessons. After a few lessons, he wanted to quit
lessons, so we let him. After a couple of months of band, he wanted
to quit, and so we let him. After seeing his sister perform with the
band at the winter concert he wanted to join again. The director
said "no" as he would be too far behind the "beginner" group, but
suggested that he rent drums again and practice on his own until the
beginner band starts again in September. She suggested that if he
was beyond "beginner" by that time, he could play w/ the "advanced"
band.
Soooooooo, what do we do? Do we incur the expenses of drums all over
again? When parents pay for lessons / equipment rental / buy
uniforms etc., is it reasonable to require our children to practice?
My unschooling gut says "no", it needs to come from the child,
whether it's practice, or finishing a session / class that has been
paid for. But I must admit, I feel frustrated with the expense (we
have three children) and with the "I want to do it - I don't like it
anymore - I want to try it again" roller coaster. This has happened
with both of our older children in many different activities -
soccer, gymnastics, drama, bowling, guitar, violin, piano, science
classes, and the list goes on!
And it isn't just trying an activity and deciding it's not their cup
of tea - after quitting for a while, they will often want to rejoin
that same activity. I've noticed other recurring situations as
well. My daughter loves singing & acting (she is ten), but if she is
engrossed in an activity e.g. computer game, reading a book, playing
barbies, she will downright throw a tantrum about going to choir or
acting class (which she begged to join - and often talks excitedly
about after class!).
And what about the children who are along for the ride in the car as
one child attends their particular activity? How much of this is
reasonable or sane? I want to honor and respect their moods, and
support what they are interested in learning about, but... this feels
a bit indulgent for some reason.
I would appreciate any and all suggestions regarding this topic -
especially as to how unschoolers handle similar situations!
Shelly
A mom who loves reading Holt, and is trying to put it into practice
despite various insecurities which flare up from time to time!
said "yes", he chose to play snare drums, we paid the band fee,
rental fees, and as he asked for lessons, signed him up, and of
course paid for the lessons. After a few lessons, he wanted to quit
lessons, so we let him. After a couple of months of band, he wanted
to quit, and so we let him. After seeing his sister perform with the
band at the winter concert he wanted to join again. The director
said "no" as he would be too far behind the "beginner" group, but
suggested that he rent drums again and practice on his own until the
beginner band starts again in September. She suggested that if he
was beyond "beginner" by that time, he could play w/ the "advanced"
band.
Soooooooo, what do we do? Do we incur the expenses of drums all over
again? When parents pay for lessons / equipment rental / buy
uniforms etc., is it reasonable to require our children to practice?
My unschooling gut says "no", it needs to come from the child,
whether it's practice, or finishing a session / class that has been
paid for. But I must admit, I feel frustrated with the expense (we
have three children) and with the "I want to do it - I don't like it
anymore - I want to try it again" roller coaster. This has happened
with both of our older children in many different activities -
soccer, gymnastics, drama, bowling, guitar, violin, piano, science
classes, and the list goes on!
And it isn't just trying an activity and deciding it's not their cup
of tea - after quitting for a while, they will often want to rejoin
that same activity. I've noticed other recurring situations as
well. My daughter loves singing & acting (she is ten), but if she is
engrossed in an activity e.g. computer game, reading a book, playing
barbies, she will downright throw a tantrum about going to choir or
acting class (which she begged to join - and often talks excitedly
about after class!).
And what about the children who are along for the ride in the car as
one child attends their particular activity? How much of this is
reasonable or sane? I want to honor and respect their moods, and
support what they are interested in learning about, but... this feels
a bit indulgent for some reason.
I would appreciate any and all suggestions regarding this topic -
especially as to how unschoolers handle similar situations!
Shelly
A mom who loves reading Holt, and is trying to put it into practice
despite various insecurities which flare up from time to time!
Bonni Sollars
Shelly, I wonder if asking them why they don't want to go or why they do
want to go would help. Maybe you're already doing this. But when I have
a conflict with my children, we sit down and have a meeting and I say
what I don't like about it and they say what they don't like and we talk
about how we would like it to be and figure out how to get our "likes"
together into a workable solution. A lot of times, especially if it is a
repeating problem, we will write the solution down in our family
agreement book and everyone signs it to show we agree and will cooperate.
Kids have good ideas for solving problems.
Bonni
want to go would help. Maybe you're already doing this. But when I have
a conflict with my children, we sit down and have a meeting and I say
what I don't like about it and they say what they don't like and we talk
about how we would like it to be and figure out how to get our "likes"
together into a workable solution. A lot of times, especially if it is a
repeating problem, we will write the solution down in our family
agreement book and everyone signs it to show we agree and will cooperate.
Kids have good ideas for solving problems.
Bonni
Lily James
Shelly said:
have been wondering about this very thing. It seems to me that one of the
things you learn in life is that when you make a commitment (having a pet,
peace corps, getting married, having children, whatever) there are going to
be times you wish you could take a break from it, or step aside, or even
quit, but the end result is valuable enough that you want to sustain through
the rough patches so you get to that end result.
My mother had me in piano lessons from 4 to 16. There were times I wanted to
quit, hated it, rebelled against practicing, etc. but now that I'm an adult
I see that it was worth that half hour a day (when I could have been talking
on the phone or watching television, which seemed VERY important to me as a
12-year-old) to be able to sit down at a piano and play whatever I want.
My parents exposed me to a bajillion different activities as a young kid,
and let me pick which ones I wanted to pursue (with the exception of piano
and swimming, which were mandatory to a competence level). I chose horses,
and eventually they bought me a horse. However, there was a lot of
discussion of "when you get this horse..." to clarify that the horse meant a
commitment. I couldn't have turned up the next day saying I didn't much care
for horses after all. I mean, I suppose I could have, but it wouldn't have
been well received. There were lots of days where I would rather not have
had the responsibility -- but I learned that the long term benefits were
worth the short term irritation of winter days and cleaning tack, etc.
Actually there was never ever a moment where I wanted to quit horses - I was
in love. And I blame this on the fact that they let me really explore LOTS
of different things on a short term, no-commitment basis, before making a
commitment to one.
So, I guess my feelings about this are mixed. I hate the idea of the parent
actualizing his/her own dreams through the child -- making him play football
or the violin or whatever because the parent wants him to. On the other
hand, I wouldn't want to let my child drift from thing to thing, quitting
whenever it got difficult or bothersome. There are lots of things in life
that have moments of difficulty or irritation, when you wish you could bag
it. Having a child not the least of these! But if it's your passion, you
persevere. I guess putting the time in at the outset to let the kid find his
real passion (for me it was horses) will save agony with indecision later --
but there are some things (like the piano lessons for me) that a child just
may not be able to see long term benefits of, and should be taught that you
stay with it and persevere regardless of your feelings at the time.
I'd hate to see a child learn to approach commitment with the idea that you
can always quit if you don't feel like it one day. But I'm just a novice, so
feel free to cheerfully disregard!
Love,
LILY
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>Soooooooo, what do we do? Do we incur the expenses of drums all overI'm interested to hear the responses to this because I am also a newbie and
>again? When parents pay for lessons / equipment rental / buy
>uniforms etc., is it reasonable to require our children to practice?
have been wondering about this very thing. It seems to me that one of the
things you learn in life is that when you make a commitment (having a pet,
peace corps, getting married, having children, whatever) there are going to
be times you wish you could take a break from it, or step aside, or even
quit, but the end result is valuable enough that you want to sustain through
the rough patches so you get to that end result.
My mother had me in piano lessons from 4 to 16. There were times I wanted to
quit, hated it, rebelled against practicing, etc. but now that I'm an adult
I see that it was worth that half hour a day (when I could have been talking
on the phone or watching television, which seemed VERY important to me as a
12-year-old) to be able to sit down at a piano and play whatever I want.
My parents exposed me to a bajillion different activities as a young kid,
and let me pick which ones I wanted to pursue (with the exception of piano
and swimming, which were mandatory to a competence level). I chose horses,
and eventually they bought me a horse. However, there was a lot of
discussion of "when you get this horse..." to clarify that the horse meant a
commitment. I couldn't have turned up the next day saying I didn't much care
for horses after all. I mean, I suppose I could have, but it wouldn't have
been well received. There were lots of days where I would rather not have
had the responsibility -- but I learned that the long term benefits were
worth the short term irritation of winter days and cleaning tack, etc.
Actually there was never ever a moment where I wanted to quit horses - I was
in love. And I blame this on the fact that they let me really explore LOTS
of different things on a short term, no-commitment basis, before making a
commitment to one.
So, I guess my feelings about this are mixed. I hate the idea of the parent
actualizing his/her own dreams through the child -- making him play football
or the violin or whatever because the parent wants him to. On the other
hand, I wouldn't want to let my child drift from thing to thing, quitting
whenever it got difficult or bothersome. There are lots of things in life
that have moments of difficulty or irritation, when you wish you could bag
it. Having a child not the least of these! But if it's your passion, you
persevere. I guess putting the time in at the outset to let the kid find his
real passion (for me it was horses) will save agony with indecision later --
but there are some things (like the piano lessons for me) that a child just
may not be able to see long term benefits of, and should be taught that you
stay with it and persevere regardless of your feelings at the time.
I'd hate to see a child learn to approach commitment with the idea that you
can always quit if you don't feel like it one day. But I'm just a novice, so
feel free to cheerfully disregard!
Love,
LILY
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
sjulian60504
<I think it was a great experience and opportunity in making
decisions and how that process works. . . .something very valuable to
learn I think. I think each experience presents to us an opportunity.
It may not be the exact one we were thinking of, but always one is
there.>
Thank you - it helps to realize they may be learning from this
process after all!
Shelly
decisions and how that process works. . . .something very valuable to
learn I think. I think each experience presents to us an opportunity.
It may not be the exact one we were thinking of, but always one is
there.>
Thank you - it helps to realize they may be learning from this
process after all!
Shelly
sjulian60504
Thanks Bonni,
This is a great suggestion for our family - since activities outside
the home do affect everyone in one way or another.
My dh was raised by a single mom who struggled to make ends meet - he
washed the same pair of jeans every night for school the next day -
so he about goes into cardiac arrest over the
whole "quitting/starting multiple activities" issue. He perceives it
as waste.
A family meeting might allow us to come up with something we can all
live with!
Shelly
This is a great suggestion for our family - since activities outside
the home do affect everyone in one way or another.
My dh was raised by a single mom who struggled to make ends meet - he
washed the same pair of jeans every night for school the next day -
so he about goes into cardiac arrest over the
whole "quitting/starting multiple activities" issue. He perceives it
as waste.
A family meeting might allow us to come up with something we can all
live with!
Shelly
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Bonni Sollars <BSOLLARS@J...> wrote:
> Shelly, I wonder if asking them why they don't want to go or why
they do
> want to go would help. Maybe you're already doing this. But when
I have
> a conflict with my children, we sit down and have a meeting and I
say
> what I don't like about it and they say what they don't like and we
talk
> about how we would like it to be and figure out how to get
our "likes"
> together into a workable solution. A lot of times, especially if
it is a
> repeating problem, we will write the solution down in our family
> agreement book and everyone signs it to show we agree and will
cooperate.
> Kids have good ideas for solving problems.
> Bonni
Mary Broussard
We are going through very similar things at times. At the moment, it is braces. Her grandmother offered to pay for them, she decided she wanted to do it and is about 5 months into it. At this point, she is re-evaulating that decision. And I support that. Her grandmother may get very upset with her if she decides to take them off. But it is Lil's body and life, and ultimately, her choice as to what she does.
She has decided she didn't like a few things she has tried and she has stopped and we really had no big deal over it. If I were doing an activity and I didn't like it, I would quit as well. I think the best we can do is share with them what we would do in that situation, if they ask (and my daughter almost always ask this question). She recently had been asked to go on a trip with someone to the Bahamas, which she scheduled to go and we bought an airline ticket. Then, a class that she had been waiting for on songwriting was scheduled for the day she was to leave. She agonized over it for over a week, and decided to forgo the trip and do the class. We will lose some money on the ticket, perhaps all of it if we don't take a trip to the Bahama's in the next year. I will consider it an expensive but probably well worth it class. But it is something she values greatly, and she gave up something she really wanted to do as well. I think it was a great experience and opportunity in making decisions and how that process works. . . .something very valuable to learn I think. I think each experience presents to us an opportunity. It may not be the exact one we were thinking of, but always one is there.
Welcome to the list, by the way. :)
Mary
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] On Again / Off Again Interests
My son is nine. He wanted to join the local homeschool band. We
said "yes", he chose to play snare drums, we paid the band fee,
rental fees, and as he asked for lessons, signed him up, and of
course paid for the lessons. After a few lessons, he wanted to quit
lessons, so we let him. After a couple of months of band, he wanted
to quit, and so we let him. After seeing his sister perform with the
band at the winter concert he wanted to join again. The director
said "no" as he would be too far behind the "beginner" group, but
suggested that he rent drums again and practice on his own until the
beginner band starts again in September. She suggested that if he
was beyond "beginner" by that time, he could play w/ the "advanced"
band.
Soooooooo, what do we do? Do we incur the expenses of drums all over
again? When parents pay for lessons / equipment rental / buy
uniforms etc., is it reasonable to require our children to practice?
My unschooling gut says "no", it needs to come from the child,
whether it's practice, or finishing a session / class that has been
paid for. But I must admit, I feel frustrated with the expense (we
have three children) and with the "I want to do it - I don't like it
anymore - I want to try it again" roller coaster. This has happened
with both of our older children in many different activities -
soccer, gymnastics, drama, bowling, guitar, violin, piano, science
classes, and the list goes on!
And it isn't just trying an activity and deciding it's not their cup
of tea - after quitting for a while, they will often want to rejoin
that same activity. I've noticed other recurring situations as
well. My daughter loves singing & acting (she is ten), but if she is
engrossed in an activity e.g. computer game, reading a book, playing
barbies, she will downright throw a tantrum about going to choir or
acting class (which she begged to join - and often talks excitedly
about after class!).
And what about the children who are along for the ride in the car as
one child attends their particular activity? How much of this is
reasonable or sane? I want to honor and respect their moods, and
support what they are interested in learning about, but... this feels
a bit indulgent for some reason.
I would appreciate any and all suggestions regarding this topic -
especially as to how unschoolers handle similar situations!
Shelly
A mom who loves reading Holt, and is trying to put it into practice
despite various insecurities which flare up from time to time!
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She has decided she didn't like a few things she has tried and she has stopped and we really had no big deal over it. If I were doing an activity and I didn't like it, I would quit as well. I think the best we can do is share with them what we would do in that situation, if they ask (and my daughter almost always ask this question). She recently had been asked to go on a trip with someone to the Bahamas, which she scheduled to go and we bought an airline ticket. Then, a class that she had been waiting for on songwriting was scheduled for the day she was to leave. She agonized over it for over a week, and decided to forgo the trip and do the class. We will lose some money on the ticket, perhaps all of it if we don't take a trip to the Bahama's in the next year. I will consider it an expensive but probably well worth it class. But it is something she values greatly, and she gave up something she really wanted to do as well. I think it was a great experience and opportunity in making decisions and how that process works. . . .something very valuable to learn I think. I think each experience presents to us an opportunity. It may not be the exact one we were thinking of, but always one is there.
Welcome to the list, by the way. :)
Mary
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] On Again / Off Again Interests
My son is nine. He wanted to join the local homeschool band. We
said "yes", he chose to play snare drums, we paid the band fee,
rental fees, and as he asked for lessons, signed him up, and of
course paid for the lessons. After a few lessons, he wanted to quit
lessons, so we let him. After a couple of months of band, he wanted
to quit, and so we let him. After seeing his sister perform with the
band at the winter concert he wanted to join again. The director
said "no" as he would be too far behind the "beginner" group, but
suggested that he rent drums again and practice on his own until the
beginner band starts again in September. She suggested that if he
was beyond "beginner" by that time, he could play w/ the "advanced"
band.
Soooooooo, what do we do? Do we incur the expenses of drums all over
again? When parents pay for lessons / equipment rental / buy
uniforms etc., is it reasonable to require our children to practice?
My unschooling gut says "no", it needs to come from the child,
whether it's practice, or finishing a session / class that has been
paid for. But I must admit, I feel frustrated with the expense (we
have three children) and with the "I want to do it - I don't like it
anymore - I want to try it again" roller coaster. This has happened
with both of our older children in many different activities -
soccer, gymnastics, drama, bowling, guitar, violin, piano, science
classes, and the list goes on!
And it isn't just trying an activity and deciding it's not their cup
of tea - after quitting for a while, they will often want to rejoin
that same activity. I've noticed other recurring situations as
well. My daughter loves singing & acting (she is ten), but if she is
engrossed in an activity e.g. computer game, reading a book, playing
barbies, she will downright throw a tantrum about going to choir or
acting class (which she begged to join - and often talks excitedly
about after class!).
And what about the children who are along for the ride in the car as
one child attends their particular activity? How much of this is
reasonable or sane? I want to honor and respect their moods, and
support what they are interested in learning about, but... this feels
a bit indulgent for some reason.
I would appreciate any and all suggestions regarding this topic -
especially as to how unschoolers handle similar situations!
Shelly
A mom who loves reading Holt, and is trying to put it into practice
despite various insecurities which flare up from time to time!
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Rochester
*** My mother had me in piano lessons from 4 to 16. There were times I wanted to quit, hated it, rebelled against practicing, etc. but now that I'm an adult I see that it was worth that half hour a day (when I could have been talking on the phone or watching television, which seemed VERY important to me as a 12-year-old) to be able to sit down at a piano and play whatever I want.***
Well, I know it isn't a very prevalent opinion, but I don't believe that being made to sit down and practice everyday is the right way to go. I also can sit down at the piano and play whatever I want, and I also regularly play at church, etc. I will even brag a bit and say that I am a very good piano player. However, I was never forced to practice - in fact, I never even took a lesson. I totally unschooled myself in this regard. I read a few lesson books and taught myself to play, because I loved it. I did practice a lot, but only when I felt like it (which might have at times been everyday, and at other times might have been pushing it at once a month - with a couple of years in there of no piano at all), and only because I enjoyed it. I never did the 'right' exercises, etc, I just played what I wanted to play. And now, at 29 years of age, I play just as well as my best friend who was forced her whole life to take lessons and practice, and who now teaches others how to play for money.
I really am just wondering how many people that think that they can only play now due to all of the 'forced practicing' of their youth would have been able to play just as well without it?
Jennifer
rochester@...
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Click here for the best diet and nutrition information you will ever find!
www.westonaprice.org
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In
both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be
most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become
unwitting victims of the darkness."
-- William O. Douglas
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well, I know it isn't a very prevalent opinion, but I don't believe that being made to sit down and practice everyday is the right way to go. I also can sit down at the piano and play whatever I want, and I also regularly play at church, etc. I will even brag a bit and say that I am a very good piano player. However, I was never forced to practice - in fact, I never even took a lesson. I totally unschooled myself in this regard. I read a few lesson books and taught myself to play, because I loved it. I did practice a lot, but only when I felt like it (which might have at times been everyday, and at other times might have been pushing it at once a month - with a couple of years in there of no piano at all), and only because I enjoyed it. I never did the 'right' exercises, etc, I just played what I wanted to play. And now, at 29 years of age, I play just as well as my best friend who was forced her whole life to take lessons and practice, and who now teaches others how to play for money.
I really am just wondering how many people that think that they can only play now due to all of the 'forced practicing' of their youth would have been able to play just as well without it?
Jennifer
rochester@...
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Click here for the best diet and nutrition information you will ever find!
www.westonaprice.org
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In
both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be
most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become
unwitting victims of the darkness."
-- William O. Douglas
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Broussard
Well, I know it isn't a very prevalent opinion, but I don't believe that being made to sit down and practice everyday is the right way to go. I also can sit down at the piano and play whatever I want, and I also regularly play at church, etc. I will even brag a bit and say that I am a very good piano player. However, I was never forced to practice - in fact, I never even took a lesson. I totally unschooled myself in this regard. I read a few lesson books and taught myself to play, because I loved it. I did practice a lot, but only when I felt like it (which might have at times been everyday, and at other times might have been pushing it at once a month - with a couple of years in there of no piano at all), and only because I enjoyed it. I never did the 'right' exercises, etc, I just played what I wanted to play. And now, at 29 years of age, I play just as well as my best friend who was forced her whole life to take lessons and practice, and who now teaches others how to play for money.
I really am just wondering how many people that think that they can only play now due to all of the 'forced practicing' of their youth would have been able to play just as well without it?
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I really am just wondering how many people that think that they can only play now due to all of the 'forced practicing' of their youth would have been able to play just as well without it?
>>>Well, I took lessons for many years. I don't ever remember being forced to practice. I loved it so much that I just played all the time. I still play now and have never stopped. In college I used to tromp about a mile or so to these little practice rooms they had for music students (I was not one) and play for hours. My brother did not like it as much I don't think. . .he really wasn't a natural at it and he does not play anymore. I have two other brothers who never took lessons but they love to play music and still do. It goes back to what your passion is . . . if you have a passion for something you will do it whether you are taking lessons or not. At least thats what it seems like to me.
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kara Bauer
I really am just wondering how many people that think that they can only play now due to all of the 'forced practicing' of their youth would have been able to play just as well without it?>>
I don't think anyone truly "learns" by being forced to do anything, they may memorize things... I taught myself the piano as well, although just a small sample of songs. One day when we actually have a piano in the house, I will teach myself more.
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think anyone truly "learns" by being forced to do anything, they may memorize things... I taught myself the piano as well, although just a small sample of songs. One day when we actually have a piano in the house, I will teach myself more.
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>And then there are all those people (I know many of them) who won't go near
>I really am just wondering how many people that think that they can only
>play now due to all of the 'forced practicing' of their youth would have
>been able to play just as well without it?
a piano or classical music because of being forced to take lessons and
practise. I know way more of them than people who appreciate having been
forced.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
talent plays a big part. I tried soooo hard to learn to play the
clarinet but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't tell if I was on
key or not. It was disappointing and hard on my self-confidence.
Rachel on the other hand, seems to be able teach herself any
instrament she feel like playing. I think lesson would be a hindrance
to her.
Bridget
>go near
> And then there are all those people (I know many of them) who won't
> a piano or classical music because of being forced to take lessonsand
> practise. I know way more of them than people who appreciate havingbeen
> forced.I think there is a lot involved in playing an instrument. Natural
> Tia
>
talent plays a big part. I tried soooo hard to learn to play the
clarinet but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't tell if I was on
key or not. It was disappointing and hard on my self-confidence.
Rachel on the other hand, seems to be able teach herself any
instrament she feel like playing. I think lesson would be a hindrance
to her.
Bridget
Tia Leschke
>A *good* teacher could have helped you train your ear. In fact if I lived
>I think there is a lot involved in playing an instrument. Natural
>talent plays a big part. I tried soooo hard to learn to play the
>clarinet but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't tell if I was on
>key or not. It was disappointing and hard on my self-confidence.
closer to you, *I* could help you train your own ear. <g>
There's a wonderful book for anyone who wants to learn music of almost any
kind. It's written by an unschooler here in B.C. It's called Music for
the Joy of It by Stephanie Judy. I *highly* recommend it. She even has a
section - I think it's in the appendix - on how to help someone train their
ear. Unless a person actually speaks in a complete monotone, they are not
tone deaf. They simply haven't trained their ear to hear the differences
in notes. Some people come by that naturally, but anyone who isn't
actually tone deaf can learn it.
>Rachel on the other hand, seems to be able teach herself anyShe would probably enjoy the book too. It's set up so you don't have to
>instrament she feel like playing. I think lesson would be a hindrance
>to her.
read it straight through. You just flip to the sections that interest
you. Both the library systems I use have it.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Fetteroll
on 4/7/02 2:19 PM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:
one called
Making music for the joy of it : enhancing creativity skills and musical
confidence
through our library.
Joyce
> It's called Music forPerhaps they gave it a different title for the American market, but I found
> the Joy of It by Stephanie Judy.
one called
Making music for the joy of it : enhancing creativity skills and musical
confidence
through our library.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/7/02 12:29:34 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< A *good* teacher could have helped you train your ear. In fact if I lived
closer to you, *I* could help you train your own ear. <g> >>
Or a person could have a good teacher and STILL not be able to match pitches.
Not everyone has musical talent. If it doesn't come naturally and joyfully
I see no reason to force it and could name several reasons NOT to force it.
Some people can't tell whether one pitch is lower or higher than another, or
whether they're the same.
Electronic tuners bother me. If someone needs an electronic tuner to tune a
guitar, they won't be able to know when it goes out of tune.
<<Some people come by that naturally, but anyone who isn't
actually tone deaf can learn it.>>
There isn't a simple, solid line with "tone deaf" on one side and "able to
learn music" on the other.
Sandra
<< A *good* teacher could have helped you train your ear. In fact if I lived
closer to you, *I* could help you train your own ear. <g> >>
Or a person could have a good teacher and STILL not be able to match pitches.
Not everyone has musical talent. If it doesn't come naturally and joyfully
I see no reason to force it and could name several reasons NOT to force it.
Some people can't tell whether one pitch is lower or higher than another, or
whether they're the same.
Electronic tuners bother me. If someone needs an electronic tuner to tune a
guitar, they won't be able to know when it goes out of tune.
<<Some people come by that naturally, but anyone who isn't
actually tone deaf can learn it.>>
There isn't a simple, solid line with "tone deaf" on one side and "able to
learn music" on the other.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>That's the one. The Making in the title is much smaller than the other words.
>
> > It's called Music for
> > the Joy of It by Stephanie Judy.
>
>Perhaps they gave it a different title for the American market, but I found
>one called
>
>Making music for the joy of it : enhancing creativity skills and musical
>confidence
>
>through our library.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Tia Leschke
>Oh I absolutely agree with you about not forcing music. But Bridget was
>
><< A *good* teacher could have helped you train your ear. In fact if I lived
>closer to you, *I* could help you train your own ear. <g> >>
>
>Or a person could have a good teacher and STILL not be able to match pitches.
> Not everyone has musical talent. If it doesn't come naturally and joyfully
>I see no reason to force it and could name several reasons NOT to force it.
lamenting her inability to tell if the note she was playing on the clarinet
was in tune or not. *That* can be learned by anyone who wants to unless
they are truly tone deaf. It really has nothing to do with musical
talent. It *does* sometimes need to be taught, and a person might not want
to go to the effort to learn it. I was trying to tell Bridget that it was
likely the teacher at fault rather than her.
>Some people can't tell whether one pitch is lower or higher than another, orBut they can learn to tell. They can get better at it, if it's something
>whether they're the same.
they really want to do.
>Electronic tuners bother me. If someone needs an electronic tuner to tune aWell, you need a starting note. It doesn't matter if you use an electronic
>guitar, they won't be able to know when it goes out of tune.
tuner or a tuning fork. Most professional oboe players (principal oboe
gives the orchestra the "official" A) use electronic tuners now. But once
you have the starting note, a person needs to learn to tell whether the
other notes are in tune with it.
><<Some people come by that naturally, but anyone who isn'tIt may not be a solid line, but if a person speaks with any inflection at
>actually tone deaf can learn it.>>
>
>There isn't a simple, solid line with "tone deaf" on one side and "able to
>learn music" on the other.
all, you have to assume that they can hear inflections, which are really
differences in pitch. That person can learn, but they may not want to put
out the effort. I would never say that a person *should* learn, just that
they *could*.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Lynda
Most people can be trained that aren't tone deaf. However, there are quite
a few folks that can't be trained to do their own tuning that aren't tone
deaf.
It is kind of like seeing a word spelled wrong and then no matter how you
spell it it never looks right. They can recognize that the instrument is
out of tune but it doesn't sound right to their ear as they try to tune it.
If someone else does it or they use an electronic tuner, then they seem to
be fine.
Not everyone has perfect pitch, not everyone can use a tuning fork but that
doesn't mean thry can't learn and doesn't mean they can't enjoy playing an
instrument.
Lynda
a few folks that can't be trained to do their own tuning that aren't tone
deaf.
It is kind of like seeing a word spelled wrong and then no matter how you
spell it it never looks right. They can recognize that the instrument is
out of tune but it doesn't sound right to their ear as they try to tune it.
If someone else does it or they use an electronic tuner, then they seem to
be fine.
Not everyone has perfect pitch, not everyone can use a tuning fork but that
doesn't mean thry can't learn and doesn't mean they can't enjoy playing an
instrument.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tia Leschke" <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: On Again / Off Again Interests
>
> >
> >
> ><< A *good* teacher could have helped you train your ear. In fact if I
lived
> >closer to you, *I* could help you train your own ear. <g> >>
> >
> >Or a person could have a good teacher and STILL not be able to match
pitches.
> > Not everyone has musical talent. If it doesn't come naturally and
joyfully
> >I see no reason to force it and could name several reasons NOT to force
it.
>
> Oh I absolutely agree with you about not forcing music. But Bridget was
> lamenting her inability to tell if the note she was playing on the
clarinet
> was in tune or not. *That* can be learned by anyone who wants to unless
> they are truly tone deaf. It really has nothing to do with musical
> talent. It *does* sometimes need to be taught, and a person might not
want
> to go to the effort to learn it. I was trying to tell Bridget that it was
> likely the teacher at fault rather than her.
>
>
> >Some people can't tell whether one pitch is lower or higher than another,
or
> >whether they're the same.
>
> But they can learn to tell. They can get better at it, if it's something
> they really want to do.
>
>
> >Electronic tuners bother me. If someone needs an electronic tuner to
tune a
> >guitar, they won't be able to know when it goes out of tune.
>
> Well, you need a starting note. It doesn't matter if you use an
electronic
> tuner or a tuning fork. Most professional oboe players (principal oboe
> gives the orchestra the "official" A) use electronic tuners now. But once
> you have the starting note, a person needs to learn to tell whether the
> other notes are in tune with it.
>
>
> ><<Some people come by that naturally, but anyone who isn't
> >actually tone deaf can learn it.>>
> >
> >There isn't a simple, solid line with "tone deaf" on one side and "able
to
> >learn music" on the other.
>
> It may not be a solid line, but if a person speaks with any inflection at
> all, you have to assume that they can hear inflections, which are really
> differences in pitch. That person can learn, but they may not want to put
> out the effort. I would never say that a person *should* learn, just that
> they *could*.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Fetteroll
on 4/7/02 9:38 PM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:
convey meaning? (Many words have the exact same pronounciation and the
meaning is conveyed through the tone.) So are there some Chinese people
who've grown up with Chinese who can't understand Chinese?
Or perhaps tone deafness has been totally eliminated from the Chinese people
since someone who couldn't understand wasn't likely to mate and reproduce.
So that thought exercise is no help at all ;-)
Joyce
> It may not be a solid line, but if a person speaks with any inflection atAre some people totally tone deaf? And doesn't the Chinese depend on tone to
> all, you have to assume that they can hear inflections, which are really
> differences in pitch.
convey meaning? (Many words have the exact same pronounciation and the
meaning is conveyed through the tone.) So are there some Chinese people
who've grown up with Chinese who can't understand Chinese?
Or perhaps tone deafness has been totally eliminated from the Chinese people
since someone who couldn't understand wasn't likely to mate and reproduce.
So that thought exercise is no help at all ;-)
Joyce
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
learn morse code. I can't. It is not that I can't hear the
differences, it's got something to do with the way my brain processes
the sounds. I've always been a very visual learner too. I often
can't get simple things out of spoken language. Like if my dh asks me
to pick up three things at the store and them lists them together, I
can't get it. They (my family) all think I'm going deaf because I
make them repeat themselves so often.
Bridget
>lived
> A *good* teacher could have helped you train your ear. In fact if I
> closer to you, *I* could help you train your own ear. <g>Maybe but forgive me if I doubt it. I've also tried like the devil to
learn morse code. I can't. It is not that I can't hear the
differences, it's got something to do with the way my brain processes
the sounds. I've always been a very visual learner too. I often
can't get simple things out of spoken language. Like if my dh asks me
to pick up three things at the store and them lists them together, I
can't get it. They (my family) all think I'm going deaf because I
make them repeat themselves so often.
Bridget
Mary Broussard
Maybe but forgive me if I doubt it. I've also tried like the devil to
learn morse code. I can't. It is not that I can't hear the
differences, it's got something to do with the way my brain processes
the sounds. I've always been a very visual learner too. I often
can't get simple things out of spoken language. Like if my dh asks me
to pick up three things at the store and them lists them together, I
can't get it. They (my family) all think I'm going deaf because I
make them repeat themselves so often.
<<my family thinks I am going deaf when I ask them to repeat themselves all the time because I am. :)
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learn morse code. I can't. It is not that I can't hear the
differences, it's got something to do with the way my brain processes
the sounds. I've always been a very visual learner too. I often
can't get simple things out of spoken language. Like if my dh asks me
to pick up three things at the store and them lists them together, I
can't get it. They (my family) all think I'm going deaf because I
make them repeat themselves so often.
<<my family thinks I am going deaf when I ask them to repeat themselves all the time because I am. :)
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
There is still hope, Bridget. Tuning is also hands-on and I've had success
(violin, dulcimer) and so has hubby (guitar [6, 12 and bass], saxophone)
with teaching people how to tune that are kenetic, visual or textile
learners. He does all tuning by ear with a final using the piano. I use a
tuning fork. You can learn to tune by feel (vibrations) if not by hearing.
It takes a little longer but it can be done and quite successfully.
Lynda
(violin, dulcimer) and so has hubby (guitar [6, 12 and bass], saxophone)
with teaching people how to tune that are kenetic, visual or textile
learners. He does all tuning by ear with a final using the piano. I use a
tuning fork. You can learn to tune by feel (vibrations) if not by hearing.
It takes a little longer but it can be done and quite successfully.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "rumpleteasermom" <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 5:41 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: On Again / Off Again Interests
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
>
> >
> > A *good* teacher could have helped you train your ear. In fact if I
> lived
> > closer to you, *I* could help you train your own ear. <g>
>
> Maybe but forgive me if I doubt it. I've also tried like the devil to
> learn morse code. I can't. It is not that I can't hear the
> differences, it's got something to do with the way my brain processes
> the sounds. I've always been a very visual learner too. I often
> can't get simple things out of spoken language. Like if my dh asks me
> to pick up three things at the store and them lists them together, I
> can't get it. They (my family) all think I'm going deaf because I
> make them repeat themselves so often.
>
> Bridget
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Tia Leschke
>Most people can be trained that aren't tone deaf. However, there are quiteThe kids who start out in Suzuki having their instruments tuned by the
>a few folks that can't be trained to do their own tuning that aren't tone
>deaf.
>
>It is kind of like seeing a word spelled wrong and then no matter how you
>spell it it never looks right. They can recognize that the instrument is
>out of tune but it doesn't sound right to their ear as they try to tune it.
>If someone else does it or they use an electronic tuner, then they seem to
>be fine.
>
>Not everyone has perfect pitch, not everyone can use a tuning fork but that
>doesn't mean thry can't learn and doesn't mean they can't enjoy playing an
>instrument.
teacher or parent eventually learn to hear it themselves. Better to start
out playing an instrument that's in tune, and gradually learning to hear
when it isn't, than to try to learn to play a string instrument that's out
of tune.
Also, perfect pitch is completely unnecessary and often gets in the
way. Imagine having perfect pitch and trying to transpose something. It
sounds completely wrong to someone with perfect pitch. (All perfect pitch
is, is being able to say what note is playing or sing a specific note,
without any reference note. What's needed to play most instruments is
relative pitch, being able to hear a note in relation to another note.)
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Tia Leschke
>Guess what, Bridget. You've just described me! <g> And I play French
>Maybe but forgive me if I doubt it. I've also tried like the devil to
>learn morse code. I can't. It is not that I can't hear the
>differences, it's got something to do with the way my brain processes
>the sounds. I've always been a very visual learner too. I often
>can't get simple things out of spoken language. Like if my dh asks me
>to pick up three things at the store and them lists them together, I
>can't get it. They (my family) all think I'm going deaf because I
>make them repeat themselves so often.
horn and cello. . . . in tune.
But I'm *not* suggesting that you should develop your relative pitch, just
that if it was still a burning desire of yours, you could.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Tia Leschke
>There is still hope, Bridget. Tuning is also hands-on and I've had successString (non-fretted anyway) players do that almost exclusively. They tune
>(violin, dulcimer) and so has hubby (guitar [6, 12 and bass], saxophone)
>with teaching people how to tune that are kenetic, visual or textile
>learners. He does all tuning by ear with a final using the piano. I use a
>tuning fork. You can learn to tune by feel (vibrations) if not by hearing.
>It takes a little longer but it can be done and quite successfully.
the A string to the oboe, tuning fork or electronic tuner. Then they play
two strings together and listen or feel for the beating that happens when
the strings are not in tune with each other. (I don't quite understand the
physics involved.) The farther out of tune the strings are, the wider the
beating. When they're in tune, it goes away. That said, I haven't been
able to learn how to do it yet on the cello. I tune using harmonics, so
that I'm playing the same (harmonic) note on both strings.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Lynda
The cello presents the same problems that a bass fiddle does in that you are
"feeling" with more than one part of your body at the same time is how my
cousin describes it. You have to be able to "tune out" (no pun intended,
those are her words and she has no sense of humor at all! <g>) the feelings
you get in your knees/theighs.
With the violin, you "feel" the tune in your fingers. The dulcimer is a bit
tricky because you have three strings that are the same and one that is
different and you normally use a bar to play, and not your fingers across
the strings.
Lynda
"feeling" with more than one part of your body at the same time is how my
cousin describes it. You have to be able to "tune out" (no pun intended,
those are her words and she has no sense of humor at all! <g>) the feelings
you get in your knees/theighs.
With the violin, you "feel" the tune in your fingers. The dulcimer is a bit
tricky because you have three strings that are the same and one that is
different and you normally use a bar to play, and not your fingers across
the strings.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tia Leschke" <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: On Again / Off Again Interests
>
> >There is still hope, Bridget. Tuning is also hands-on and I've had
success
> >(violin, dulcimer) and so has hubby (guitar [6, 12 and bass], saxophone)
> >with teaching people how to tune that are kenetic, visual or textile
> >learners. He does all tuning by ear with a final using the piano. I use
a
> >tuning fork. You can learn to tune by feel (vibrations) if not by
hearing.
> >It takes a little longer but it can be done and quite successfully.
>
> String (non-fretted anyway) players do that almost exclusively. They tune
> the A string to the oboe, tuning fork or electronic tuner. Then they play
> two strings together and listen or feel for the beating that happens when
> the strings are not in tune with each other. (I don't quite understand
the
> physics involved.) The farther out of tune the strings are, the wider the
> beating. When they're in tune, it goes away. That said, I haven't been
> able to learn how to do it yet on the cello. I tune using harmonics, so
> that I'm playing the same (harmonic) note on both strings.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
rumpleteasermom
I no longer care much about playing an instrument. I would like to
learn code, but I've tried just about everything.
Bridget
learn code, but I've tried just about everything.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
>
> Guess what, Bridget. You've just described me! <g> And I play
French
> horn and cello. . . . in tune.
>
> But I'm *not* suggesting that you should develop your relative
pitch, just
> that if it was still a burning desire of yours, you could.
> Tia
>
>
Tia Leschke
>I no longer care much about playing an instrument. I would like toCan't help you there. I had a lot of trouble with it when I tried years
>learn code, but I've tried just about everything.
ago. But I just had an idea. Your daughters are learning, right? Now if
they were to tell secrets (from you) in code . . . .<g>
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
dah if they do it slowly. If they carried keyers around with them I
wouldn't get it, it's the electronic noises I can't distinguish. But
it still wouldn't matter 'cause I don't pry into their secrets.
Bridget
>years
> Can't help you there. I had a lot of trouble with it when I tried
> ago. But I just had an idea. Your daughters are learning, right?Now if
> they were to tell secrets (from you) in code . . . .<g>Wouldn't work. I can hear it when they speak it as the words dit and
> Tia
>
dah if they do it slowly. If they carried keyers around with them I
wouldn't get it, it's the electronic noises I can't distinguish. But
it still wouldn't matter 'cause I don't pry into their secrets.
Bridget