[email protected]

In a message dated 3/21/02 1:58:42 PM, azhom@... writes:

<< Maybe
I just don't have a clear picture of things, (I am sure I don't LOL) but I
do not understand how a child will ever be able to get a job and work for a
boss, with rules, and deadlines to meet, and the like, if the complete
attitude at home is kinda like "do what ya want as long as your safety isn't
compromised" >>

The complete attitude at our house is that if there's no good reason to say
"no," we try to say "yes."

My oldest has never been to school. He doesn't have a set bedtime. (We had
5:00 a.m. for a while, and let that go; since then he's been up after 5:00
twice, and to bed before midnight many more times.)

When he was fourteen he was offered a job at the gaming shop where he works.
That was a year and a half ago. This week he's working four days. He has a
cash register code and is sometimes the main cashier. He's fifteen. He was
five minutes late to work once (overslept and hadn't told me he had to go).
He has never called in sick.

When he was younger if there was an early-morning cartoon he wanted to watch,
he would set his own alarm, get up quietly and watch it, and maybe record it
for his brother (he did that with Ninja Turtles for a while when he was
eight, and his brother doesn't wake up as easily).

From my experience with this child, it seems the question would be more this:
If a parent forces a child to get up and do things, why would the child keep
doing it after the threat of force was removed? If by the age of fifteen
Kirby had been made to get up before daylight most of 180 days a year so he
could get on a schoolbus (as I was made to do), would he not want to avoid
getting up early whenever possible?

In the summer he has to be at work at 8:30 on Saturdays. He's been in an
anime club that meets late Friday night (after the anime shop closes) for
over a year too. He accomplishes both. I *could* tell him it wasn't
possible and make him quit one or the other, but it IS possible, and I would
be lying. He's proven it's possible.

Sandra

kayb85

I agree with you, Sandra, that if there's not a good reason to say
no, we should say yes.

How do you handle it if the child is grumpy in the morning because
she didn't get enough sleep, or if she has a hard time getting up to
go somewhere she wants to go because she's not used to getting up
that early?

Sheila


> << Maybe
> I just don't have a clear picture of things, (I am sure I don't
LOL) but I
> do not understand how a child will ever be able to get a job and
work for a
> boss, with rules, and deadlines to meet, and the like, if the
complete
> attitude at home is kinda like "do what ya want as long as your
safety isn't
> compromised" >>
>
> The complete attitude at our house is that if there's no good
reason to say
> "no," we try to say "yes."
>
> My oldest has never been to school. He doesn't have a set
bedtime. (We had
> 5:00 a.m. for a while, and let that go; since then he's been up
after 5:00
> twice, and to bed before midnight many more times.)
>
> When he was fourteen he was offered a job at the gaming shop where
he works.
> That was a year and a half ago. This week he's working four days.
He has a
> cash register code and is sometimes the main cashier. He's
fifteen. He was
> five minutes late to work once (overslept and hadn't told me he had
to go).
> He has never called in sick.
>
> When he was younger if there was an early-morning cartoon he wanted
to watch,
> he would set his own alarm, get up quietly and watch it, and maybe
record it
> for his brother (he did that with Ninja Turtles for a while when he
was
> eight, and his brother doesn't wake up as easily).
>
> From my experience with this child, it seems the question would be
more this:
> If a parent forces a child to get up and do things, why would the
child keep
> doing it after the threat of force was removed? If by the age of
fifteen
> Kirby had been made to get up before daylight most of 180 days a
year so he
> could get on a schoolbus (as I was made to do), would he not want
to avoid
> getting up early whenever possible?
>
> In the summer he has to be at work at 8:30 on Saturdays. He's been
in an
> anime club that meets late Friday night (after the anime shop
closes) for
> over a year too. He accomplishes both. I *could* tell him it
wasn't
> possible and make him quit one or the other, but it IS possible,
and I would
> be lying. He's proven it's possible.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/21/02 8:40:19 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< How do you handle it if the child is grumpy in the morning because
she didn't get enough sleep, or if she has a hard time getting up to
go somewhere she wants to go because she's not used to getting up
that early? >>

If it's somewhere they don't really have to be, or can go later, I ask if
they'd rather sleep some more. (This happened today, with Kirby and Marty.
I woke them up an hour before they wanted to be somewhere, and since I REALLY
had to leave then to take Holly and another family to a homeschooling
meeting, I said "If you'd rather sleep a while that's fine, if you're willing
to walk up there." (that was to Kirby, who said no, he wanted to get up).
Marty was even groggier so I said "You don't have to be there for another
couple of hours. Do you want to rollerblade up there later?"

If it's somewhere everyone has to go (like a family trip) I say "You can
sleep in the car if you want--grab a pillow."

If they're expected or have to meet someone or are going to have a friend
arriving soon I say "I'll come back in five (or ten) minutes."

Holly's the worst, though (speaking of "she") and sometimes will whimper or
cry if I wake her up and remind her she wanted to do something. But I just
go away a bit, and come back, and she will have woken up better and will let
me know what she wants to do. Sometimes it's sleep some more. Sometimes
it's get in the shower so the water will wake her up.

We're just really as peaceable about it as we can be, and I always try to
give them an hour (unless they plan in advance, with a shower the night
before and their stuff by the door, to get up with minimal "clearance").

Sandra

marji

>How do you handle it if the child is grumpy in the morning because
>she didn't get enough sleep, or if she has a hard time getting up to
>go somewhere she wants to go because she's not used to getting up
>that early?

Hi! I hope you won't my piping up on this question. I'm really new to
this list, and although the volume of mail has been tremendous, I have been
enjoying reading what I can when I can. I noticed this particular little
thread, and loved what Sandra had to say about this. I hope you won't mind
my two cents here.

Seems to me that if my kid were grumpy about not getting enough rest
because he didn't get enough sleep, I'd be *quietly* sympathetic. If he
was late going to a thing he really wanted to go to and/or missed it
because he didn't plan for it, and was terribly disappointed, I'd be
*quietly* sympathetic. If he asked me for help in getting up the next
time, I would help him in whatever way *he asked*. I wouldn't blame
myself; I wouldn't blame him. I'd treat him the way *I* would like to be
treated in this circumstance (or any other circumstances).

I'm not sure that there is any other *thing* I could do that would be
helpful to him, or to me. I suppose I could offer up advice about what he
*should have* done, but unsolicited advice is usually not appreciated and
benefits no one (I think it only builds up the advisor at the expense of
the advisee).

It sounds to me like Kirby has figured out exactly what he needs to do to
be able to get done what he wants to get done (I hope that made sense
{g}). Being able to figure out these things - all things - for ourselves,
I think, is our birthright, no matter what our age. When we need help
figuring them out, we can ask for help, which, ultimately, is part of being
able to figure out for ourselves what to do: We figure out whom to ask or
where to look for the information we need. (If I play my cards right, I
hope I'll be one of the people my son knows he can look to for help when he
needs it. He'll only do that if he can trust me to offer nonjudgmental
help that he can accept or refuse without my getting offended or weird. In
other words, if he knows he won't have to hear "I told you so" and "Of
course you're late; you should have..." and other know--it-all stuff
parents are so good at shoveling up.)

When people have to learn to do something, they just do it. If there are a
few bumps along the way (grumpy from lack of sleep, for example), they'll
be able to figure out what went wrong and how to deal with it the next
time. We moms and dads can hang back and be supportive!

I sure hope you don't mind my chiming in! I just couldn't resist. That
*was* a little more than two cents, no? {G}

Marji (a lurker who is brand new to unschooling her 7-year-old son, Liam)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/21/02 11:31:32 PM, zintz@... writes:

<< I wouldn't blame
myself; I wouldn't blame him. I'd treat him the way *I* would like to be
treated in this circumstance (or any other circumstances). >>

That's how I try to think of it. I've stayed up way too late, even in the
past few years, sometimes. And that feeling of headachy stupidity is God's
Own Natural Consequences.

And because Kirby's young, sometimes he CAN just bounce up and go after three
hours sleep. I could, when I was a teenager and in my 20's.

<< When we need help
figuring them out, we can ask for help,>>

Sometimes he does that too. If he's having a big weekend he'll say he needs
to sleep at some point, or he'll ask me sometimes to remind him to go to bed
early on Thursday, or whatever.

This Sunday he has an all-day white crane seminar (a karate thing), and has
to be at the YMCA at 8:30 a.m. Tomorrow I'll remind him that he might want
to skip the Saturday night D&D game. Then if he decides he really wants to
do D&D, it won't be my fault. (That is important to me too. <g>) And if he
goes to D&D I won't shame him at all. And if he does choose to stay home, I
won't say "Good, Kirby; I'm proud of you." I want him to have and make that
decision without my nagging or praising or anything. I'll help by reminding
him, and then let him make the judgment call.

-=-
I sure hope you don't mind my chiming in! I just couldn't resist. That
*was* a little more than two cents, no? {G}-=-

I don't mind a bit! You said it better than I did, and it helped.

Sandra

[email protected]

And that feeling of headachy stupidity is God's
Own Natural Consequences.

We usually call it a social hangover, I like how you phrased it too. You
could get up and say, "Whew, I feel really GONCky today.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

rumpleteasermom

I've dealt with this for a quite a while with Rachel who is my night
owl. This morning we toured a chicken factory farm (pretty cool
set-up, but not sure I like the ethical questions it raises.) Anyway,
Jenni went to wake Rachel up and came back and said Rachel didn't want
to get up. I went and asked Rachel if she didn't want to get up or
just wasn't interested in the tour. She said both, I shut the door
and left. If she had said she was interested but too tired, I would
have delayed leaving for a 15 minutes and given her a chance to wake
up because she is a very slow riser - then asked again.
Rachel is 17 so if your children are younger you are dealing with
other things too, like not being able to just leave them. But we have
had discussions about her cranky moods for ten years. I don't ask her
to be happy, just don't bring the rest of us down too. I also try to
respect her need for sleep up to the point that it is a symptom of
depression (17 hours a day or so), then we talk to the doctor.
Now, the one thing that we had to make very clear to Rachel was that
if she didn't get up, and said she didn't want to go somewhere, she
wasn't allowed to crab later that she didn't get to go.

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "kayb85" <sheran@p...> wrote:

> How do you handle it if the child is grumpy in the morning because
> she didn't get enough sleep, or if she has a hard time getting up to
> go somewhere she wants to go because she's not used to getting up
> that early?
>
> Sheila
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/02 11:49:20 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< But we have
had discussions about her cranky moods for ten years. I don't ask her
to be happy, just don't bring the rest of us down too. >>

Kirby was our resident grump from about nine to 15, and in the past several
months he's Mr. Chipper. Very easy to get along with. Very helpful.
Puberty was rough on him. He's getting grown.

But I've said that to him many times--either be nice or be quiet, the rest of
the kids really want to do this thing. And he was able to cheer up pretty
easily if he remembered he wanted to.

I realize the problem could make a comeback, but for now we're enjoying the
sweet, enthusiastic Kirby of years ago.

Sandra

[email protected]

One year I was at a large Fourth of July celebration with group we generally
see once a year at said celebration.
Sitting in one of the beach chairs was the son of a good long time friend.
He was wearing alot of black, was slouched as far down as he could be and
had a look of Sullen-Aloofness.
I said, "So, How long have you been 14?"
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

Tia Leschke

>One year I was at a large Fourth of July celebration with group we generally
>see once a year at said celebration.
>Sitting in one of the beach chairs was the son of a good long time friend.
>He was wearing alot of black, was slouched as far down as he could be and
>had a look of Sullen-Aloofness.
>I said, "So, How long have you been 14?"

LOL! Except that my son got into that just before 12 and is now coming out
of it. Yippee!
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

Zack too started the grumpyness earlier than teens, and he really goes in
those six month cycles.
sweet and loving, then grumpy and pushing everyone away.
He's a really great kid.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

zenmomma *

>>I sure hope you don't mind my chiming in! I just couldn't resist. That
>>*was* a little more than two cents, no? {G}>>

Chiming in is what a list is all about. :o)

>>Marji (a lurker who is brand new to unschooling her 7-year-old son,
>>Liam)>>

I LOVE the name Liam! If I was ever to have another boy, that's the name I'd
pick.

Welcome Marji.

Life is good.
~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

marji

>Chiming in is what a list is all about. :o)

You're right!

>I LOVE the name Liam! If I was ever to have another boy, that's the name
>I'd pick.

I had a good friend in high school back in the 1970s whose name was
Liam. His dad was in the military, so I only knew him for a short time,
but I was really taken with his name. I had forgotten about the name,
though. We had no problem coming up with a wonderful names for a girl, but
we were having trouble picking a boy's name. The name Liam occurred to us
almost simultaneously. We had to make sure it would be right for him,
though, and we were prepared to wait for the name, if we had to. When I
first held him and nursed him, I absolutely knew that Liam was the right name.


>Welcome Marji.

Thanks very much, Mary! I'm glad to be here.

Warmly,

Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]