Cindy

zenmomma * wrote:
>
> >>Over the rules-of-the-list would include calling people's ideas BAD. Or
> >>their usage of their ideas BAD.>>
>
> But an idea *can* be way off-track (does that equal BAD?) while the person
> stating it is still fabulous. I, for one, have had some real dillies
> (lulu's?) in my lifetime. Is my saying, "I don't think that's a good idea",
> a BAD idea?
>
It depends on how you say it. If I said "Mary, I don't think that's a good
idea" you would most likely have one reaction. If I said "Mary,
that is the most ridiculous, stupid idea I've heard in my life!" I think
you'd have a different reaction - and you probably wouldn't want to
share your ideas with me again or you'd do so guardedly.

> Is it better to let less than stellar ideas float around on this list to be
> seen and maybe utilized by 100's of lurkers and posters? Or is it better to
> challenge an idea that may be off-base, or could be done easier or better?
> For me, having to really think and tweak my ideas and beliefs has been
> enlightening.
>
Challenging ideas without also making snide comments about the person
expressing those ideas is a good thing(tm) in my opinion. By snide
comments I mean things like spelling or grammar corrections in a thread
not related to those, and generalizing put-downs of people who have
*those* ideas. If the challenge is expressed with respect for the person
who has those less than stellar ideas, it could and hopefully would
encourage dialog between members of this community. I would like to
see seekers welcome here. Some of them may not understand they are
mistaken (in their core practices). Challenging them with a "but you're
not an unschooler - go find an eclectic list" will most likely mean
they leave or a major fight ensues or both. Putting people on the
defensive is not the best way to help them see where changes might
be made in my experience.

> >>That is the cycle this conversation and list seemed to have gone through.
> >>Letting it slide from one.. and then getting messages from the moderator
> >>from another. Very interesting dynamics.>>
>
> How do we know who is, and isn't, getting a moderator note? Is it posted
> somewhere?
>
As one of the moderators, I'd like to keep that between individuals rather
than letting the whole list know. Maybe it would help to post the warning
to the list but it seems way too punitive to me! One of the reasons I
became a moderator is that I'd like to see this list move so that it
doesn't need one. I've been on-line a long, long time and I firmly
believe in self-policing lists. I'm talking with some friends who have
been on-line as long or longer than me about what is necessary to achieve
that! One key ingredient we have identified is respect for others
and their opinions; if that is missing, it will be impossible. I may
not agree with someone but they have the right to express themselves.
And I will fight so their voice isn't silenced. Voltaire summed it up well IMO.
A person may not engage in a debate the way I'd wish; they might not
cite sources when requested; they may make snide sarcastic comments.
But none of those mean they should be silenced.

> >>Style, no style. Differing opinions does not include putting another's
> >>down.>>
>
> Is questioning someone's firmly held belief putting someone
> down?(<----note: real question, not attempting to be argumentative. :o))
>
And this is a real answer, not an argumentative one!<g> It depends on the
phrasing. Saying "why do you believe the world is flat?" is one way;
saying "why are you stupid enough to ignore all the scientific evidence
about the shape of the world?" is another. I'm trying to come up with
obviously extreme examples here - there are a lot of ways to ask a question.
Some of them will be perceived as a put-down, others won't. That perception
will most likely depend on how people are feeling and what is going on
in their life at that point in time too which makes it even more difficult.

I have more to say but I need to get off-line and do things with my
children. I would be happy to continue a dialog on this topic with
anyone who wants to participate!

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

Tia Leschke

>If the challenge is expressed with respect for the person
>who has those less than stellar ideas, it could and hopefully would
>encourage dialog between members of this community.

I've seen that happen here quite a few times, and those people have stuck
around and learned. I really enjoy this debate about what unschooling is
and is not, and I've learned from it. If we can keep the "That's not
unschooling" on a general rather than personal level, we should be able to
debate it without hurting anyone's feelings. And those who don't want to
take part in it don't have to.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

zenmomma *

>>It depends on how you say it. If I said "Mary, I don't think that's a
>>good idea" you would most likely have one reaction. If I said "Mary, that
>>is the most ridiculous, stupid idea I've heard in my life!" I think you'd
>>have a different reaction - and you probably wouldn't want to share your
>>ideas with me again or you'd do so guardedly.>>

So then, "Jane, you ignorant slut." would be a no-no? ;-) (Gosh I hope there
are enough people old enough to remember the original SNL!)

>>Challenging ideas without also making snide comments about the person
>>expressing those ideas is a good thing(tm) in my opinion.>>

I agree totally. That's what I was looking for here. :o) I also think a bit
of humor doesn't hurt. ;-)

>>I would like to see seekers welcome here. Some of them may not understand
>>they are mistaken (in their core practices).>>

It's nice to have a welcoming place to go to with questions and doubts. I'd
love it if this could be that place while also gently steering people
towards some new ideas.

>>As one of the moderators, I'd like to keep that between individuals rather
>>than letting the whole list know. Maybe it would help to post the warning
>>to the list but it seems way too punitive to me!>>

Oh yikes, don't so that! :-o I was just wondering how people seemed to know
that some were getting notes, but not others. A private nudge is so much
preferred to a public flogging. :-D

Life is good.
~Mary

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rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@h...> wrote:
Maybe it would help to post the
warning
> >>to the list but it seems way too punitive to me!>>
>
> Oh yikes, don't so that! :-o I was just wondering how people seemed
to know
> that some were getting notes, but not others. A private nudge is so
much
> preferred to a public flogging. :-D
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>

This is true only if the moderators are perfect and unbiased. I
personally would prefer that "nudges" be public because then there is
less of a chance of a misguided nudge doing harm unnoticed.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/02 12:45:54 PM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< This is true only if the moderators are perfect and unbiased. I
personally would prefer that "nudges" be public because then there is
less of a chance of a misguided nudge doing harm unnoticed.
>>

Let's talk about unschooling instead of our navels.