Choices ( a little OT-ish)
katyclark1969
Does anyone else agree with me that one unforseen consequence of
the "women's movement" is that a woman who choses to stay home and
raise her children is somehow settling and that she really would like
to be out in the working world? My sister just wants to stay home
and have babies, but my mother, who was a huge supporter of the ERA,
thinks she's "throwing her life away." Isn't the whole point of the
movement that women should have choices and isn't being a full-time
mother and homemaker just as valid a choice as being an executive, if
not more so? Just a thought.
Stirrin' things up in Louisiana
Katy
the "women's movement" is that a woman who choses to stay home and
raise her children is somehow settling and that she really would like
to be out in the working world? My sister just wants to stay home
and have babies, but my mother, who was a huge supporter of the ERA,
thinks she's "throwing her life away." Isn't the whole point of the
movement that women should have choices and isn't being a full-time
mother and homemaker just as valid a choice as being an executive, if
not more so? Just a thought.
Stirrin' things up in Louisiana
Katy
Lara Nabours
Yes, Katy...My own MIL kept telling us after we had two children that I had better go out and get a real job. She thinks she is protecting me from the mistakes she made. Excuse me, it's about choices and doing what I enjoy and find satisfaction in right? We now have three blessings and a successful work from home business that I love and allows me to support and encourage my kids in their learning endeavors-but in her eyes that doesn't count. We have given up on even trying to explain unschooling to her because she just doesn't get it. I find it amusing that my husband's grandmother who was a public school teacher, is the only one in the family that is supportive of our unschooling lifestyle.
That's another thing. In college, staying home and being a full-time mother was never presented as an option and was pretty much looked down upon. Which was difficult for me, because deep down in my heart I knew that I wanted to be a full-time mother and not an advertising executive. My major was Communication Studies..Public Relations and Professional Writing...
Okay..I am just babbling now..sorry ;)
Living Joyfully,
Lara .
-----Original Message-----
From: katyclark1969 [mailto:katyclark1969@...]
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 6:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Choices ( a little OT-ish)
Does anyone else agree with me that one unforseen consequence of
the "women's movement" is that a woman who choses to stay home and
raise her children is somehow settling and that she really would like
to be out in the working world? My sister just wants to stay home
and have babies, but my mother, who was a huge supporter of the ERA,
thinks she's "throwing her life away." Isn't the whole point of the
movement that women should have choices and isn't being a full-time
mother and homemaker just as valid a choice as being an executive, if
not more so? Just a thought.
Stirrin' things up in Louisiana
Katy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's another thing. In college, staying home and being a full-time mother was never presented as an option and was pretty much looked down upon. Which was difficult for me, because deep down in my heart I knew that I wanted to be a full-time mother and not an advertising executive. My major was Communication Studies..Public Relations and Professional Writing...
Okay..I am just babbling now..sorry ;)
Living Joyfully,
Lara .
-----Original Message-----
From: katyclark1969 [mailto:katyclark1969@...]
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 6:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Choices ( a little OT-ish)
Does anyone else agree with me that one unforseen consequence of
the "women's movement" is that a woman who choses to stay home and
raise her children is somehow settling and that she really would like
to be out in the working world? My sister just wants to stay home
and have babies, but my mother, who was a huge supporter of the ERA,
thinks she's "throwing her life away." Isn't the whole point of the
movement that women should have choices and isn't being a full-time
mother and homemaker just as valid a choice as being an executive, if
not more so? Just a thought.
Stirrin' things up in Louisiana
Katy
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ADVERTISEMENT
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Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kolleen
>Katy wrote:Mothers were not respected before the movement, hence the movement itself
>My sister just wants to stay home
>and have babies, but my mother, who was a huge supporter of the ERA,
>thinks she's "throwing her life away." Isn't the whole point of the
>movement that women should have choices and isn't being a full-time
>mother and homemaker just as valid a choice as being an executive, if
>not more so? Just a thought.
did nothing for motherhood. I think the problem happened LONG before
that..
kolleen
Bonni Sollars
I don't know if it is the women's movement's fault. I think it is the
men's movement that said women are to be seen and not heard and are to be
pregnant and barefoot and dress, act and live for the man. If other
women misunderstand why I'm at home when I love to be at home, it is
because they have a negative image of a woman staying at home. When they
see me at home even though it causes financial troubles, they think I am
lazy and irresponsible. But I say, "I am me and you are you." If they
want to not be home, then God bless 'em. If they work because they feel
coerced to, then God help 'em to realize there is another way,
individualized to them. I know right now that if I want to work, I can
work it into my schedule. I don't have to work 9 to 5. Been there, done
that, hated that. My determination to do what seems right in my heart
for me and for us as a family has led me to see the options that are
there for me. I know I could work swing or graveyard part time. I've
been there done that too. It was better than 9 to 5, but not best for
me. I have a plan. When my kids go to college, so will I. My 14 year
old is saving his money for college. He is presently pursuing a job
working 24 hours a week. He has a state form to give to his employer to
send to the state, saying it is legal for him to work 24 hours a week.
He was working with his Dad, but said he wanted a steady job with steady
pay. He wants to be an architectural engineer. He has plans. My plan
is, once my kids are away from home, I want to go to college, then work
in the field of my choice and save all my money, except for a percentage
for spending, on retirement. That's because my husband doesn't think of
the future. But why should I lose my glorious present to ensure a safe
future? I will wait until I am ready, then I will go back to work. I
have had weekend jobs and part time jobs. And the truth is, it was never
in the field of my choice, because I did what was expected of me instead
of following my dreams. I want to give my children the opportunity to
follow their dreams rather than sit in a rigid school environment
learning to keep status quo and follow the leader.
It's late and I may be rambling.
Bonni
men's movement that said women are to be seen and not heard and are to be
pregnant and barefoot and dress, act and live for the man. If other
women misunderstand why I'm at home when I love to be at home, it is
because they have a negative image of a woman staying at home. When they
see me at home even though it causes financial troubles, they think I am
lazy and irresponsible. But I say, "I am me and you are you." If they
want to not be home, then God bless 'em. If they work because they feel
coerced to, then God help 'em to realize there is another way,
individualized to them. I know right now that if I want to work, I can
work it into my schedule. I don't have to work 9 to 5. Been there, done
that, hated that. My determination to do what seems right in my heart
for me and for us as a family has led me to see the options that are
there for me. I know I could work swing or graveyard part time. I've
been there done that too. It was better than 9 to 5, but not best for
me. I have a plan. When my kids go to college, so will I. My 14 year
old is saving his money for college. He is presently pursuing a job
working 24 hours a week. He has a state form to give to his employer to
send to the state, saying it is legal for him to work 24 hours a week.
He was working with his Dad, but said he wanted a steady job with steady
pay. He wants to be an architectural engineer. He has plans. My plan
is, once my kids are away from home, I want to go to college, then work
in the field of my choice and save all my money, except for a percentage
for spending, on retirement. That's because my husband doesn't think of
the future. But why should I lose my glorious present to ensure a safe
future? I will wait until I am ready, then I will go back to work. I
have had weekend jobs and part time jobs. And the truth is, it was never
in the field of my choice, because I did what was expected of me instead
of following my dreams. I want to give my children the opportunity to
follow their dreams rather than sit in a rigid school environment
learning to keep status quo and follow the leader.
It's late and I may be rambling.
Bonni
rumpleteasermom
Well, yeah! That's why the Marylin Vos Savant thing irritated me so
much!
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "katyclark1969" <katyclark1969@y...>
wrote:
much!
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "katyclark1969" <katyclark1969@y...>
wrote:
>Isn't the whole point of theif
> movement that women should have choices and isn't being a full-time
> mother and homemaker just as valid a choice as being an executive,
> not more so? Just a thought.
>
> Stirrin' things up in Louisiana
> Katy
Josefa Wilson
For me, staying at home was one of the most liberating things I did. Is your mom's goal in
life job and career or happiness and fulfillment. I chose the happiness and fulfillment.
Josefa
katyclark1969 wrote:
life job and career or happiness and fulfillment. I chose the happiness and fulfillment.
Josefa
katyclark1969 wrote:
> Does anyone else agree with me that one unforseen consequence of[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> the "women's movement" is that a woman who choses to stay home and
> raise her children is somehow settling and that she really would like
> to be out in the working world? My sister just wants to stay home
> and have babies, but my mother, who was a huge supporter of the ERA,
> thinks she's "throwing her life away." Isn't the whole point of the
> movement that women should have choices and isn't being a full-time
> mother and homemaker just as valid a choice as being an executive, if
> not more so? Just a thought.
>
> Stirrin' things up in Louisiana
> Katy
[email protected]
Long and not about unschooling; skip it if you don't care about the history
of the women's movement.
<< > Does anyone else agree with me that one unforseen consequence of
It was hard for the education- and career-oriented movement to laud
housewives.
I don't think it was unforseen. For those who were old enough to be
cognizent (I was a teen) when it was first happening, they were TRULY up
against the Archie Bunkers of the earth. "I don't mind my wife having a job
as long as the house is clean and my dinner's on the table" was not a joke.
It was real. And women in the sciences were being treated very badly. I
have a friend who got a master's degree in engineering around 1980 and went
to work at Sandia National labs. She was 30is, working with a bunch of 50
and 60 year old men, mostly ex-military, and they ignored her, belittled her,
asked her to do girl-jobs (the secretarial end of their project's work) and
to get them food, at first. When she pointed out "engineer," they just kind
of ignored her for a while. Forgot to invite her to meetings. That was just
20 years ago. They would have felt they had "won" if she had gone home to
stay with her child.
The women's movement accomplished a LOT, lots more than most people realize.
Many states (most, I think) in the 1970's didn't have any provision in law to
charge a married man with raping his wife. In some places, rape was defined
as involving a woman not your spouse (in what exact phrasing in which states
I'm not sure anymore, but I used to be able to discuss the local laws because
I worked in the rape crisis center a while in college). Young women who
hear that now find it hard to believe.
There were women then (one ironically made a good living at it) who said
women SHOULD stay home and do what their husband said, and just be
housewives. So the lines were drawn there, with a political movement
opposing 'women's lib' and calling for women to be subject to their husbands.
That movement, of course, paid little to no attention to single women or
divorced or widowed women. Their job was to have gotten a husband (and then
stay home).
Sandra
of the women's movement.
<< > Does anyone else agree with me that one unforseen consequence of
> the "women's movement" is that a woman who choses to stay home andYes.
> raise her children is somehow settling and that she really would like
> to be out in the working world? >>
It was hard for the education- and career-oriented movement to laud
housewives.
I don't think it was unforseen. For those who were old enough to be
cognizent (I was a teen) when it was first happening, they were TRULY up
against the Archie Bunkers of the earth. "I don't mind my wife having a job
as long as the house is clean and my dinner's on the table" was not a joke.
It was real. And women in the sciences were being treated very badly. I
have a friend who got a master's degree in engineering around 1980 and went
to work at Sandia National labs. She was 30is, working with a bunch of 50
and 60 year old men, mostly ex-military, and they ignored her, belittled her,
asked her to do girl-jobs (the secretarial end of their project's work) and
to get them food, at first. When she pointed out "engineer," they just kind
of ignored her for a while. Forgot to invite her to meetings. That was just
20 years ago. They would have felt they had "won" if she had gone home to
stay with her child.
The women's movement accomplished a LOT, lots more than most people realize.
Many states (most, I think) in the 1970's didn't have any provision in law to
charge a married man with raping his wife. In some places, rape was defined
as involving a woman not your spouse (in what exact phrasing in which states
I'm not sure anymore, but I used to be able to discuss the local laws because
I worked in the rape crisis center a while in college). Young women who
hear that now find it hard to believe.
There were women then (one ironically made a good living at it) who said
women SHOULD stay home and do what their husband said, and just be
housewives. So the lines were drawn there, with a political movement
opposing 'women's lib' and calling for women to be subject to their husbands.
That movement, of course, paid little to no attention to single women or
divorced or widowed women. Their job was to have gotten a husband (and then
stay home).
Sandra
SAT1
I am so glad that there were women who went before me (I'm 32) and got
rid of some of the prejudice. My father is one of those Archie Bunker
types that did not allow my mom to have a job. She was miserable, he was
miserable, we were miserable. I think that if men were real men and took
care of things that they say they will, ie trash, chores, other matters
and if they actually paid attention to what was happening in their
family, ie only 4 slices of bread left so they volunteer to stop by and
pick some up or they actually notice that the 5 yr olds underwear is no
longer fitting so they go to the store and buy the correct size with out
anyone asking them then life for everyone would be much better and fewer
women would complain about not getting respect. I hope that didn't sound
too bad.
I know a few women that complain about not getting any respect but they
do nothing to change the situation and of course their husbands are
living the easy life, no responsibilities at home, so they are not going
to change. If I can do one thing for my ds it will be to instill in him
the value of paying attention to life around him and having him know
that just because he is a man doesn't entitle him to have life revolve
around him.
Sara
rid of some of the prejudice. My father is one of those Archie Bunker
types that did not allow my mom to have a job. She was miserable, he was
miserable, we were miserable. I think that if men were real men and took
care of things that they say they will, ie trash, chores, other matters
and if they actually paid attention to what was happening in their
family, ie only 4 slices of bread left so they volunteer to stop by and
pick some up or they actually notice that the 5 yr olds underwear is no
longer fitting so they go to the store and buy the correct size with out
anyone asking them then life for everyone would be much better and fewer
women would complain about not getting respect. I hope that didn't sound
too bad.
I know a few women that complain about not getting any respect but they
do nothing to change the situation and of course their husbands are
living the easy life, no responsibilities at home, so they are not going
to change. If I can do one thing for my ds it will be to instill in him
the value of paying attention to life around him and having him know
that just because he is a man doesn't entitle him to have life revolve
around him.
Sara
zenmomma *
>>I am so glad that there were women who went before me (I'm 32) and got ridI agree. I'm 42. I know that I have so many more choices in my life because
>>of some of the prejudice.>>
of the women who went before me. I think it's like a pendulum. The women's
movement is really relatively young in the grand scheme of things. They
pushed until that pendulum swung way far out there. Others will push back in
the other direction to get what they want. In the end, I hope it will settle
somewhere in the middle, with the choices still available to us, and
tolereance and respect for those who choose differently than we do.
>>I know a few women that complain about not getting any respect but they doThis sounds like such a sad relationship. It's so different in my home. Jon
>>nothing to change the situation and of course their husbands are living
>>the easy life, no responsibilities at home, so they are not going to
>>change.>>
and I are partners all the way. Conor has a great role model.
Life is good.
~Mary
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<<Many states (most, I think) in the 1970's didn't have any provision in law
to
charge a married man with raping his wife. <snip> ). Young women who
hear that now find it hard to believe. >>
This is the CURRENT situation in Virginia. There was a recent attempt to
change it (come out of the dark ages) but it FAILED.
Disgusting.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
to
charge a married man with raping his wife. <snip> ). Young women who
hear that now find it hard to believe. >>
This is the CURRENT situation in Virginia. There was a recent attempt to
change it (come out of the dark ages) but it FAILED.
Disgusting.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
SAT1
Forgive me for my ignorance but does anybody remember when it became
legal for women to own property in most states without having their
husbands name on the note?
Sara
legal for women to own property in most states without having their
husbands name on the note?
Sara
Cindy
zenmomma * wrote:
mid1800s. They got sold out when blacks were freed and basically had
to start over. At that point they were concerned with education for
women (so they could learn to read) and with issues relating to men
and women - men basically owned the women in their families. Read
about the Seneca Falls conference which Elizabeth Cady Stanton and
Susan B. Anthony put on. Once women's suffragge was won (women were
not given the vote - women died in this country so other women could
vote) there was a collective sigh. Enter the Great Depression followed
by WW2 and women's rights were put on the backburner. Betty Friedan
wrote _The Feminine Mystique_ in the 50s.
As for what is happening now, it is too bad that the Movement has been
polarized into those who choose to work outside the home and those
who choose not to. I wonder at times how much is by design and
manipulation. In the 80s Betty Friedan wrote another book called
_The Second Stage_ and in it she discussed where the Movement should
go next. It was to family rights - parent's rights - so for example
all parents could take time off to be with their children, not just
the pregnant parent. From what I remember of that book it would be a
bit too much for the corporate mainstream to bear. It questioned a lot
of the underlying assumptions of our culture - you know the "buy more,
spend more, thus earn more" philosophy. Maybe if the mothers of the
US found their common interests and sat down to a dialog in a spirit
of cooperation, we might again change the world. In my cynical at
times world view, I feel that the maintainers-of-the-status-quo
fear that more than almost anything!
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>The women's movement started out with the abolitionist movement of the
> >>I am so glad that there were women who went before me (I'm 32) and got rid
> >>of some of the prejudice.>>
>
> I agree. I'm 42. I know that I have so many more choices in my life because
> of the women who went before me. I think it's like a pendulum. The women's
> movement is really relatively young in the grand scheme of things. They
> pushed until that pendulum swung way far out there. Others will push back in
> the other direction to get what they want. In the end, I hope it will settle
> somewhere in the middle, with the choices still available to us, and
> tolereance and respect for those who choose differently than we do.
>
mid1800s. They got sold out when blacks were freed and basically had
to start over. At that point they were concerned with education for
women (so they could learn to read) and with issues relating to men
and women - men basically owned the women in their families. Read
about the Seneca Falls conference which Elizabeth Cady Stanton and
Susan B. Anthony put on. Once women's suffragge was won (women were
not given the vote - women died in this country so other women could
vote) there was a collective sigh. Enter the Great Depression followed
by WW2 and women's rights were put on the backburner. Betty Friedan
wrote _The Feminine Mystique_ in the 50s.
As for what is happening now, it is too bad that the Movement has been
polarized into those who choose to work outside the home and those
who choose not to. I wonder at times how much is by design and
manipulation. In the 80s Betty Friedan wrote another book called
_The Second Stage_ and in it she discussed where the Movement should
go next. It was to family rights - parent's rights - so for example
all parents could take time off to be with their children, not just
the pregnant parent. From what I remember of that book it would be a
bit too much for the corporate mainstream to bear. It questioned a lot
of the underlying assumptions of our culture - you know the "buy more,
spend more, thus earn more" philosophy. Maybe if the mothers of the
US found their common interests and sat down to a dialog in a spirit
of cooperation, we might again change the world. In my cynical at
times world view, I feel that the maintainers-of-the-status-quo
fear that more than almost anything!
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Lynda
Has anyone taken a good look at the general shift since the current occupant
of the White House arrived? If you want a good example, watch some of the
shows like Talk Back where the topic is Andrea Yates, and I quote, "He was
doing his job by going to work and supporting his family. Her family should
have been helping her." This in response to the question of why he didn't
notice any problems or help out when he got home from work. While this is
the quote from one man, it was the over whelming concensus of far too many.
There is a whole segment of the population that has come out of the closet,
so to speak, making noise to send women back to "barefoot and pregnant."
The whole Andrea Yates incident shows just how little the basic thinking of
far too many men AND women have changed. The father is a fundamentalist
Xtian. He wanted more children. They were told not to have anymore. He
insisted (per her brother).
If we had made any real progress he and the dimwitted doctor would be in
jail and she would be on a psych ward!
Lynda
of the White House arrived? If you want a good example, watch some of the
shows like Talk Back where the topic is Andrea Yates, and I quote, "He was
doing his job by going to work and supporting his family. Her family should
have been helping her." This in response to the question of why he didn't
notice any problems or help out when he got home from work. While this is
the quote from one man, it was the over whelming concensus of far too many.
There is a whole segment of the population that has come out of the closet,
so to speak, making noise to send women back to "barefoot and pregnant."
The whole Andrea Yates incident shows just how little the basic thinking of
far too many men AND women have changed. The father is a fundamentalist
Xtian. He wanted more children. They were told not to have anymore. He
insisted (per her brother).
If we had made any real progress he and the dimwitted doctor would be in
jail and she would be on a psych ward!
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy" <crma@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Choices ( a little OT-ish)
>
>
> zenmomma * wrote:
> >
> > >>I am so glad that there were women who went before me (I'm 32) and got
rid
> > >>of some of the prejudice.>>
> >
> > I agree. I'm 42. I know that I have so many more choices in my life
because
> > of the women who went before me. I think it's like a pendulum. The
women's
> > movement is really relatively young in the grand scheme of things. They
> > pushed until that pendulum swung way far out there. Others will push
back in
> > the other direction to get what they want. In the end, I hope it will
settle
> > somewhere in the middle, with the choices still available to us, and
> > tolereance and respect for those who choose differently than we do.
> >
>
> The women's movement started out with the abolitionist movement of the
> mid1800s. They got sold out when blacks were freed and basically had
> to start over. At that point they were concerned with education for
> women (so they could learn to read) and with issues relating to men
> and women - men basically owned the women in their families. Read
> about the Seneca Falls conference which Elizabeth Cady Stanton and
> Susan B. Anthony put on. Once women's suffragge was won (women were
> not given the vote - women died in this country so other women could
> vote) there was a collective sigh. Enter the Great Depression followed
> by WW2 and women's rights were put on the backburner. Betty Friedan
> wrote _The Feminine Mystique_ in the 50s.
>
> As for what is happening now, it is too bad that the Movement has been
> polarized into those who choose to work outside the home and those
> who choose not to. I wonder at times how much is by design and
> manipulation. In the 80s Betty Friedan wrote another book called
> _The Second Stage_ and in it she discussed where the Movement should
> go next. It was to family rights - parent's rights - so for example
> all parents could take time off to be with their children, not just
> the pregnant parent. From what I remember of that book it would be a
> bit too much for the corporate mainstream to bear. It questioned a lot
> of the underlying assumptions of our culture - you know the "buy more,
> spend more, thus earn more" philosophy. Maybe if the mothers of the
> US found their common interests and sat down to a dialog in a spirit
> of cooperation, we might again change the world. In my cynical at
> times world view, I feel that the maintainers-of-the-status-quo
> fear that more than almost anything!
>
> --
>
> Cindy Ferguson
> crma@...
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
SAT1
Lynda, there are way to many men out there that have absolutely no
respect for women. They only make appropriate noises about women's
rights when forced to do so. Upon returning to work 5 years ago after
having my first child I was told "Had you not taken maternity leave you
would have gotten a better rating.' I worked through half my maternity
leave, writing and running programs for people and my boss knew about
this but still since I had taken maternity leave I did not deserve to
get a better rating. This was a large company, employing over 45,000
people at the time. My brother and father are still more like Archie
Bunker than anyone else I can think of.
I also am a Christian and regularly attend church. There are a number of
men that are totally and completely stuck on themselves and can 't even
have a decent conversation with a woman because they are MEN (beat chest
like ape while saying). I refuse to allow them to dictate to me how I
decide to worship. I know of a few people who have quit going to church
because of this but I am going to stay there in their face and not quit
doing something that I love just because some men are pigheaded. I have
studied women in the Bible and how men really should act if they are
Christians so I know that women really are not to be treated as badly as
most church going men treat them. But back to the original point, many
men in the church environment would be happy if women would be totally
quite little lumps that were only available to do work that was 'fit for
a woman' as they see it.
Another area that is not directly connected to women but discrimination
in general is the fact that there are still a large number of white
people who will say in public that they are not racist but they really
are. They won't say a word as long as they think a person from another
race can hear them but in 'mighty white' circles they make comments that
are racist. I don't think the women's movement will get anywhere if the
non-racist movement can't get anywhere. The people that I associate with
that are more into unschooling aren't racist but I have met a few
homeschooling families that made comments that were definitely racist. I
think that real progress that can not be changed by voting someone new
into the white house will take centuries not decades because of the
underground current of discrimination that is there but is not voiced
unless in a 'safe' environment.
Sara
Lynda wrote:
respect for women. They only make appropriate noises about women's
rights when forced to do so. Upon returning to work 5 years ago after
having my first child I was told "Had you not taken maternity leave you
would have gotten a better rating.' I worked through half my maternity
leave, writing and running programs for people and my boss knew about
this but still since I had taken maternity leave I did not deserve to
get a better rating. This was a large company, employing over 45,000
people at the time. My brother and father are still more like Archie
Bunker than anyone else I can think of.
I also am a Christian and regularly attend church. There are a number of
men that are totally and completely stuck on themselves and can 't even
have a decent conversation with a woman because they are MEN (beat chest
like ape while saying). I refuse to allow them to dictate to me how I
decide to worship. I know of a few people who have quit going to church
because of this but I am going to stay there in their face and not quit
doing something that I love just because some men are pigheaded. I have
studied women in the Bible and how men really should act if they are
Christians so I know that women really are not to be treated as badly as
most church going men treat them. But back to the original point, many
men in the church environment would be happy if women would be totally
quite little lumps that were only available to do work that was 'fit for
a woman' as they see it.
Another area that is not directly connected to women but discrimination
in general is the fact that there are still a large number of white
people who will say in public that they are not racist but they really
are. They won't say a word as long as they think a person from another
race can hear them but in 'mighty white' circles they make comments that
are racist. I don't think the women's movement will get anywhere if the
non-racist movement can't get anywhere. The people that I associate with
that are more into unschooling aren't racist but I have met a few
homeschooling families that made comments that were definitely racist. I
think that real progress that can not be changed by voting someone new
into the white house will take centuries not decades because of the
underground current of discrimination that is there but is not voiced
unless in a 'safe' environment.
Sara
Lynda wrote:
> Has anyone taken a good look at the general shift since the currentADVERTISEMENT
> occupant
> of the White House arrived? If you want a good example, watch some of
> the
> shows like Talk Back where the topic is Andrea Yates, and I quote, "He
> was
> doing his job by going to work and supporting his family. Her family
> should
> have been helping her." This in response to the question of why he
> didn't
> notice any problems or help out when he got home from work. While
> this is
> the quote from one man, it was the over whelming concensus of far too
> many.
>
> There is a whole segment of the population that has come out of the
> closet,
> so to speak, making noise to send women back to "barefoot and
> pregnant."
>
> The whole Andrea Yates incident shows just how little the basic
> thinking of
> far too many men AND women have changed. The father is a
> fundamentalist
> Xtian. He wanted more children. They were told not to have anymore.
> He
> insisted (per her brother).
>
> If we had made any real progress he and the dimwitted doctor would be
> in
> jail and she would be on a psych ward!
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy" <crma@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Choices ( a little OT-ish)
>
>
> >
> >
> > zenmomma * wrote:
> > >
> > > >>I am so glad that there were women who went before me (I'm 32)
> and got
> rid
> > > >>of some of the prejudice.>>
> > >
> > > I agree. I'm 42. I know that I have so many more choices in my
> life
> because
> > > of the women who went before me. I think it's like a pendulum.
> The
> women's
> > > movement is really relatively young in the grand scheme of things.
> They
> > > pushed until that pendulum swung way far out there. Others will
> push
> back in
> > > the other direction to get what they want. In the end, I hope it
> will
> settle
> > > somewhere in the middle, with the choices still available to us,
> and
> > > tolereance and respect for those who choose differently than we
> do.
> > >
> >
> > The women's movement started out with the abolitionist movement of
> the
> > mid1800s. They got sold out when blacks were freed and basically
> had
> > to start over. At that point they were concerned with education for
>
> > women (so they could learn to read) and with issues relating to men
> > and women - men basically owned the women in their families. Read
> > about the Seneca Falls conference which Elizabeth Cady Stanton and
> > Susan B. Anthony put on. Once women's suffragge was won (women were
>
> > not given the vote - women died in this country so other women could
>
> > vote) there was a collective sigh. Enter the Great Depression
> followed
> > by WW2 and women's rights were put on the backburner. Betty Friedan
>
> > wrote _The Feminine Mystique_ in the 50s.
> >
> > As for what is happening now, it is too bad that the Movement has
> been
> > polarized into those who choose to work outside the home and those
> > who choose not to. I wonder at times how much is by design and
> > manipulation. In the 80s Betty Friedan wrote another book called
> > _The Second Stage_ and in it she discussed where the Movement should
>
> > go next. It was to family rights - parent's rights - so for example
>
> > all parents could take time off to be with their children, not just
> > the pregnant parent. From what I remember of that book it would be
> a
> > bit too much for the corporate mainstream to bear. It questioned a
> lot
> > of the underlying assumptions of our culture - you know the "buy
> more,
> > spend more, thus earn more" philosophy. Maybe if the mothers of the
>
> > US found their common interests and sat down to a dialog in a spirit
>
> > of cooperation, we might again change the world. In my cynical at
> > times world view, I feel that the maintainers-of-the-status-quo
> > fear that more than almost anything!
> >
> > --
> >
> > Cindy Ferguson
> > crma@...
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Lynda
How true! The whole attitude is back to the original constitution, etc. --
white men with money!
Lynda
white men with money!
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "SAT1" <sat1@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Choices ( a little OT-ish)
> Lynda, there are way to many men out there that have absolutely no
> respect for women. They only make appropriate noises about women's
> rights when forced to do so. Upon returning to work 5 years ago after
> having my first child I was told "Had you not taken maternity leave you
> would have gotten a better rating.' I worked through half my maternity
> leave, writing and running programs for people and my boss knew about
> this but still since I had taken maternity leave I did not deserve to
> get a better rating. This was a large company, employing over 45,000
> people at the time. My brother and father are still more like Archie
> Bunker than anyone else I can think of.
>
> I also am a Christian and regularly attend church. There are a number of
> men that are totally and completely stuck on themselves and can 't even
> have a decent conversation with a woman because they are MEN (beat chest
> like ape while saying). I refuse to allow them to dictate to me how I
> decide to worship. I know of a few people who have quit going to church
> because of this but I am going to stay there in their face and not quit
> doing something that I love just because some men are pigheaded. I have
> studied women in the Bible and how men really should act if they are
> Christians so I know that women really are not to be treated as badly as
> most church going men treat them. But back to the original point, many
> men in the church environment would be happy if women would be totally
> quite little lumps that were only available to do work that was 'fit for
> a woman' as they see it.
>
> Another area that is not directly connected to women but discrimination
> in general is the fact that there are still a large number of white
> people who will say in public that they are not racist but they really
> are. They won't say a word as long as they think a person from another
> race can hear them but in 'mighty white' circles they make comments that
> are racist. I don't think the women's movement will get anywhere if the
> non-racist movement can't get anywhere. The people that I associate with
> that are more into unschooling aren't racist but I have met a few
> homeschooling families that made comments that were definitely racist. I
> think that real progress that can not be changed by voting someone new
> into the white house will take centuries not decades because of the
> underground current of discrimination that is there but is not voiced
> unless in a 'safe' environment.
>
> Sara
>
>
> Lynda wrote:
>
> > Has anyone taken a good look at the general shift since the current
> > occupant
> > of the White House arrived? If you want a good example, watch some of
> > the
> > shows like Talk Back where the topic is Andrea Yates, and I quote, "He
> > was
> > doing his job by going to work and supporting his family. Her family
> > should
> > have been helping her." This in response to the question of why he
> > didn't
> > notice any problems or help out when he got home from work. While
> > this is
> > the quote from one man, it was the over whelming concensus of far too
> > many.
> >
> > There is a whole segment of the population that has come out of the
> > closet,
> > so to speak, making noise to send women back to "barefoot and
> > pregnant."
> >
> > The whole Andrea Yates incident shows just how little the basic
> > thinking of
> > far too many men AND women have changed. The father is a
> > fundamentalist
> > Xtian. He wanted more children. They were told not to have anymore.
> > He
> > insisted (per her brother).
> >
> > If we had made any real progress he and the dimwitted doctor would be
> > in
> > jail and she would be on a psych ward!
> >
> > Lynda
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cindy" <crma@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Choices ( a little OT-ish)
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > zenmomma * wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>I am so glad that there were women who went before me (I'm 32)
> > and got
> > rid
> > > > >>of some of the prejudice.>>
> > > >
> > > > I agree. I'm 42. I know that I have so many more choices in my
> > life
> > because
> > > > of the women who went before me. I think it's like a pendulum.
> > The
> > women's
> > > > movement is really relatively young in the grand scheme of things.
> > They
> > > > pushed until that pendulum swung way far out there. Others will
> > push
> > back in
> > > > the other direction to get what they want. In the end, I hope it
> > will
> > settle
> > > > somewhere in the middle, with the choices still available to us,
> > and
> > > > tolereance and respect for those who choose differently than we
> > do.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The women's movement started out with the abolitionist movement of
> > the
> > > mid1800s. They got sold out when blacks were freed and basically
> > had
> > > to start over. At that point they were concerned with education for
> >
> > > women (so they could learn to read) and with issues relating to men
> > > and women - men basically owned the women in their families. Read
> > > about the Seneca Falls conference which Elizabeth Cady Stanton and
> > > Susan B. Anthony put on. Once women's suffragge was won (women were
> >
> > > not given the vote - women died in this country so other women could
> >
> > > vote) there was a collective sigh. Enter the Great Depression
> > followed
> > > by WW2 and women's rights were put on the backburner. Betty Friedan
> >
> > > wrote _The Feminine Mystique_ in the 50s.
> > >
> > > As for what is happening now, it is too bad that the Movement has
> > been
> > > polarized into those who choose to work outside the home and those
> > > who choose not to. I wonder at times how much is by design and
> > > manipulation. In the 80s Betty Friedan wrote another book called
> > > _The Second Stage_ and in it she discussed where the Movement should
> >
> > > go next. It was to family rights - parent's rights - so for example
> >
> > > all parents could take time off to be with their children, not just
> > > the pregnant parent. From what I remember of that book it would be
> > a
> > > bit too much for the corporate mainstream to bear. It questioned a
> > lot
> > > of the underlying assumptions of our culture - you know the "buy
> > more,
> > > spend more, thus earn more" philosophy. Maybe if the mothers of the
> >
> > > US found their common interests and sat down to a dialog in a spirit
> >
> > > of cooperation, we might again change the world. In my cynical at
> > > times world view, I feel that the maintainers-of-the-status-quo
> > > fear that more than almost anything!
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Cindy Ferguson
> > > crma@...
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> > > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Lilly
>They were told not to have anymore children??? Why
> The whole Andrea Yates incident shows just how
> little the basic thinking of
> far too many men AND women have changed. The father
> is a fundamentalist
> Xtian. He wanted more children. They were told not
> to have anymore. He
> insisted (per her brother).
>
> If we had made any real progress he and the
> dimwitted doctor would be in
> jail and she would be on a psych ward!
>
> Lynda
>
would he wantmore with her.
I don't have the whole story on adrea Yates . tell me
.
Lilly
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards�
http://movies.yahoo.com/
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/21/02 5:53:44 AM, hazy_lilly@... writes:
<< I don't have the whole story on adrea Yates . tell me >>
Go to google.com and find it and read it there. Let's not go through the
details here, please.
<< I don't have the whole story on adrea Yates . tell me >>
Go to google.com and find it and read it there. Let's not go through the
details here, please.
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Lilly <hazy_lilly@y...> wrote:
third or fouth one not to have anymore.
Bridget
> >Not more now, that goes without saying. They were told after the
> They were told not to have anymore children??? Why
> would he wantmore with her.
>
> I don't have the whole story on adrea Yates . tell me
> .
>
> Lilly
>
third or fouth one not to have anymore.
Bridget
Lynda
She had a mild ppd after the third child. She had ppd with severe psychotic
episodes which required hospitalization after the 4th child. She was told
at that time that it was not advisable to have anymore children as there was
little doubt she was have ppd and a more than 90% chance she would have
another psychotic episode and that from her history of progression, they
could expect it to be worse than the prior episodes.
He wanted a girl and he wanted more children. 10 was his ideal (hmmmm,
sound familiar?) and he had discussed it with his pastor -- go forth and
procreate, etc. He "badgered" her (her family's discription) into having
another child.
Lynda
episodes which required hospitalization after the 4th child. She was told
at that time that it was not advisable to have anymore children as there was
little doubt she was have ppd and a more than 90% chance she would have
another psychotic episode and that from her history of progression, they
could expect it to be worse than the prior episodes.
He wanted a girl and he wanted more children. 10 was his ideal (hmmmm,
sound familiar?) and he had discussed it with his pastor -- go forth and
procreate, etc. He "badgered" her (her family's discription) into having
another child.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lilly" <hazy_lilly@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 4:52 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Yates
>
> >
> > The whole Andrea Yates incident shows just how
> > little the basic thinking of
> > far too many men AND women have changed. The father
> > is a fundamentalist
> > Xtian. He wanted more children. They were told not
> > to have anymore. He
> > insisted (per her brother).
> >
> > If we had made any real progress he and the
> > dimwitted doctor would be in
> > jail and she would be on a psych ward!
> >
> > Lynda
> >
> They were told not to have anymore children??? Why
> would he wantmore with her.
>
> I don't have the whole story on adrea Yates . tell me
> .
>
> Lilly
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
> http://movies.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Julie Stauffer
<<they asked him to have her committed again>>
But did Andrea Yates want to go to the hospital?
I don't know about other places but in Texas you can only commit people if
they are an immediate danger to themselves or others, as in making threats
or engaging in very dangerous behavior. Being psychotic is not grounds to
be committed. I haven't heard whether or not she was willing to go to the
hospital.
Julie
But did Andrea Yates want to go to the hospital?
I don't know about other places but in Texas you can only commit people if
they are an immediate danger to themselves or others, as in making threats
or engaging in very dangerous behavior. Being psychotic is not grounds to
be committed. I haven't heard whether or not she was willing to go to the
hospital.
Julie
Kara Bauer
I don't know about other places but in Texas you can only commit people if
they are an immediate danger to themselves or others, as in making threats
or engaging in very dangerous behavior. Being psychotic is not grounds to
be committed. I haven't heard whether or not she was willing to go to the
hospital.>>
That's a good question... another one I would like to know is *if Russell Yates & his mother both felt she really needed to be hospitalized, WHY would they instead back off on helping her?? It makes absolutely no sense... she is not well, she is acting very strangely - so hey let's give her an hour in the morning by herself so she doesn't feel like Russell's mother is interfering? It just sounds like another reason why he should be in there just as much as she should.
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they are an immediate danger to themselves or others, as in making threats
or engaging in very dangerous behavior. Being psychotic is not grounds to
be committed. I haven't heard whether or not she was willing to go to the
hospital.>>
That's a good question... another one I would like to know is *if Russell Yates & his mother both felt she really needed to be hospitalized, WHY would they instead back off on helping her?? It makes absolutely no sense... she is not well, she is acting very strangely - so hey let's give her an hour in the morning by herself so she doesn't feel like Russell's mother is interfering? It just sounds like another reason why he should be in there just as much as she should.
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Yes she was willing.
Lynda
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:06 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Yates
> <<they asked him to have her committed again>>
>
> But did Andrea Yates want to go to the hospital?
>
> I don't know about other places but in Texas you can only commit people if
> they are an immediate danger to themselves or others, as in making threats
> or engaging in very dangerous behavior. Being psychotic is not grounds to
> be committed. I haven't heard whether or not she was willing to go to the
> hospital.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Julie Stauffer
<<Yes she was willing>>
Hi Lynda,
You have access to very detailed information about this case that doesn't
appear to be covered in the Texas newspapers. Like most homeschoolers, I am
very interested in this case and any fallout that may occur. Could you site
your sources of information for the benefit of others and myself? Thanks.
Julie
Hi Lynda,
You have access to very detailed information about this case that doesn't
appear to be covered in the Texas newspapers. Like most homeschoolers, I am
very interested in this case and any fallout that may occur. Could you site
your sources of information for the benefit of others and myself? Thanks.
Julie
Lynda
Interviews of family members on CNN, MSNBC, FOX and some other programs
along with interviews of the husband and his mother. ALL agreed that when
she went in and hubby asked to have her admitted that she asked for the
papers to sign to be admitted.
Having worked in an acute psych facility, I have closely followed this case
to see if TX would do what it does so well and completely ignore prior
medical history.
Lynda
along with interviews of the husband and his mother. ALL agreed that when
she went in and hubby asked to have her admitted that she asked for the
papers to sign to be admitted.
Having worked in an acute psych facility, I have closely followed this case
to see if TX would do what it does so well and completely ignore prior
medical history.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 6:46 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Yates
> <<Yes she was willing>>
>
> Hi Lynda,
>
> You have access to very detailed information about this case that doesn't
> appear to be covered in the Texas newspapers. Like most homeschoolers, I
am
> very interested in this case and any fallout that may occur. Could you
site
> your sources of information for the benefit of others and myself? Thanks.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Julie Stauffer
<<news stories that put him in the courtroom at the time of sentencing>>
According to the San Antonio Express-News, you were right the first time.
The story stated that "the only familiar faces" were the mental health
professionals who had worked with Mrs. Yates in jail. The story made a big
deal about how none of her family showed up.
Julie
According to the San Antonio Express-News, you were right the first time.
The story stated that "the only familiar faces" were the mental health
professionals who had worked with Mrs. Yates in jail. The story made a big
deal about how none of her family showed up.
Julie
Julie Stauffer
<<Sorry that's prosecutable and should be>>
Possibly. My point in the other analogies is that we do not know the entire story. What things look like in hindsight and what they look like in day to day living are often very different. What we have been hearing in the media is the family putting a spin on things to try to keep Mrs. Yates from getting the death penalty. The accuracy of the spin is up for debate at this point.
Having lived my childhood and adolescence in very close proximity (3 houses away in a very small town) of my schizophrenic grandmother who at times was a threat of violence but the vast majority of the time was simply kind of a cigarette smoking lump.... having seen my very loving and parentally appropriate family try to deal with her illness and its aftermath on all concerned with varying degrees of success....having tried to help families with psychotic members to obtain appropriate services.....having worked in psychiatric facilities where insurance coverage determined admittance, not the doctor's recommendations, and maxing out coverage resulted in miraculous improvement so patients could be discharged.....having worked with psychiatrists who knew all about mild depressive episodes in wealthy socialites but didn't have a clue about major psychotic episodes..... I am not willing to jump on the lynch mob bandwagon based on reports in the media.
Julie
"Give government the weapons to fight your enemy and it will use them against you"--Harry Browne
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable"-- John F. Kennedy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Possibly. My point in the other analogies is that we do not know the entire story. What things look like in hindsight and what they look like in day to day living are often very different. What we have been hearing in the media is the family putting a spin on things to try to keep Mrs. Yates from getting the death penalty. The accuracy of the spin is up for debate at this point.
Having lived my childhood and adolescence in very close proximity (3 houses away in a very small town) of my schizophrenic grandmother who at times was a threat of violence but the vast majority of the time was simply kind of a cigarette smoking lump.... having seen my very loving and parentally appropriate family try to deal with her illness and its aftermath on all concerned with varying degrees of success....having tried to help families with psychotic members to obtain appropriate services.....having worked in psychiatric facilities where insurance coverage determined admittance, not the doctor's recommendations, and maxing out coverage resulted in miraculous improvement so patients could be discharged.....having worked with psychiatrists who knew all about mild depressive episodes in wealthy socialites but didn't have a clue about major psychotic episodes..... I am not willing to jump on the lynch mob bandwagon based on reports in the media.
Julie
"Give government the weapons to fight your enemy and it will use them against you"--Harry Browne
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable"-- John F. Kennedy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Okey dokey, here's the chronology:
1989 -- they met
1993 -- they married
1994 -- first child
-- first "vision" about a knife
1995 -- second child
1997 -- third child
1999 -- fourth child (February)
-- suicide attempt with 40/50 Trazodon (June)
-- 6 day hospital admission
-- chart reads "Doesn't want to die but wants the misery to go
away."
-- starts to scratch herself bald
-- found in BATHTUB with knife to neck (July)
-- admitted to psych hospital in catatonic state, 3 week admission
-- chart reads "I had a fear I would hurt somebody, I thought it
better to end my own life and prevent it." Reports hearing voices and
seeing visions of a knife.
One interesting part is that her life as a wife and mother and through FOUR
pregancies were spent in a "small house" for their first year, followed by a
camper and then a Greyhound bus.
Now, can you image being pregnant and having a infant/toddler to raise in a
camper? Or having to go through a pregnancy with an infant and a toddler,
without air conditioning IN TEXAS in a Greyhound bus conversion OR how about
a fourth pregnancy with TWO toddlers and 1 infant?
So, good ol' Rusty notices, finally, that she is "agitated and withdrawn,"
"feeling overwhelming anxiety and sadness." So he moves them out of the bus
and into her mother's house.
"To help Andrea cope, Rusty bought a house."
2000 -- birth of fifth child (November)
2001 -- death of her father (March)
-- irrational fear about youngest child begins
-- taken to Devereux psych hospital, 12 day stay
-- extreme weight loss
-- May 4, Dr. told she was not eating or drinking and had again
been found with a full bathtub of water
-- admitted for 10 days
-- discharge notes read "still depressed, still with suicidal
impulses
-- June 4, Dr. d/c'd Haldol, refused to readmit her, refused Haldol
shot
-- few days later, Rusty's brother stated she "barely spoke,"
"seemed indifferent" and "carried the baby around like a football or a loaf
of bread."
-- June 20, mil doesn't show up in the a.m. and Andrea kills her
children.
-- states to shrink that she thought Satan was living in her and
that both she and Satan needed to be punished.
Sources: CNN, MSNBC, FOX, Newsweek, USA Today, People Magazine.
Lynda
1989 -- they met
1993 -- they married
1994 -- first child
-- first "vision" about a knife
1995 -- second child
1997 -- third child
1999 -- fourth child (February)
-- suicide attempt with 40/50 Trazodon (June)
-- 6 day hospital admission
-- chart reads "Doesn't want to die but wants the misery to go
away."
-- starts to scratch herself bald
-- found in BATHTUB with knife to neck (July)
-- admitted to psych hospital in catatonic state, 3 week admission
-- chart reads "I had a fear I would hurt somebody, I thought it
better to end my own life and prevent it." Reports hearing voices and
seeing visions of a knife.
One interesting part is that her life as a wife and mother and through FOUR
pregancies were spent in a "small house" for their first year, followed by a
camper and then a Greyhound bus.
Now, can you image being pregnant and having a infant/toddler to raise in a
camper? Or having to go through a pregnancy with an infant and a toddler,
without air conditioning IN TEXAS in a Greyhound bus conversion OR how about
a fourth pregnancy with TWO toddlers and 1 infant?
So, good ol' Rusty notices, finally, that she is "agitated and withdrawn,"
"feeling overwhelming anxiety and sadness." So he moves them out of the bus
and into her mother's house.
"To help Andrea cope, Rusty bought a house."
2000 -- birth of fifth child (November)
2001 -- death of her father (March)
-- irrational fear about youngest child begins
-- taken to Devereux psych hospital, 12 day stay
-- extreme weight loss
-- May 4, Dr. told she was not eating or drinking and had again
been found with a full bathtub of water
-- admitted for 10 days
-- discharge notes read "still depressed, still with suicidal
impulses
-- June 4, Dr. d/c'd Haldol, refused to readmit her, refused Haldol
shot
-- few days later, Rusty's brother stated she "barely spoke,"
"seemed indifferent" and "carried the baby around like a football or a loaf
of bread."
-- June 20, mil doesn't show up in the a.m. and Andrea kills her
children.
-- states to shrink that she thought Satan was living in her and
that both she and Satan needed to be punished.
Sources: CNN, MSNBC, FOX, Newsweek, USA Today, People Magazine.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 10:12 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re:Yates
> <<Sorry that's prosecutable and should be>>
>
> Possibly. My point in the other analogies is that we do not know the
entire story. What things look like in hindsight and what they look like in
day to day living are often very different. What we have been hearing in
the media is the family putting a spin on things to try to keep Mrs. Yates
from getting the death penalty. The accuracy of the spin is up for debate
at this point.
>
> Having lived my childhood and adolescence in very close proximity (3
houses away in a very small town) of my schizophrenic grandmother who at
times was a threat of violence but the vast majority of the time was simply
kind of a cigarette smoking lump.... having seen my very loving and
parentally appropriate family try to deal with her illness and its aftermath
on all concerned with varying degrees of success....having tried to help
families with psychotic members to obtain appropriate services.....having
worked in psychiatric facilities where insurance coverage determined
admittance, not the doctor's recommendations, and maxing out coverage
resulted in miraculous improvement so patients could be
discharged.....having worked with psychiatrists who knew all about mild
depressive episodes in wealthy socialites but didn't have a clue about major
psychotic episodes..... I am not willing to jump on the lynch mob bandwagon
based on reports in the media.
>
> Julie
>
> "Give government the weapons to fight your enemy and it will use them
against you"--Harry Browne
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin
>
> "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent
revolution inevitable"-- John F. Kennedy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Julie Stauffer
<<Greyhound conversion>>
I wonder if you are making judgments here based on YOUR lifechoices as
opposed to someone else's. I am on a Homesteading Homeschoolers list where
people talk regularly of living in yurts with their children, or campers, or
houses made of straw bales. So while the decision may seem bizarre to you,
it may not necessarily seem odd at all to others.
So the suicide attempt was 2 years prior to the murders.......
Most people with chronic psychotic conditions tend to look like they were
"rode hard and put up wet." Mrs. Yates' appearance doesn't necessarily
indicate that her lifechoices were the problem with her appearance.
I am not an advocate for any of the Yates' family but I am not willing to
bet someone's life that we are getting the full story from the media.
I also wonder about the religious aspects of it. I am in no ways a
fundamentalist but if you look at that mindset, the Yates' lives make a lot
of sense. If I truly believed that God would not give me more than I could
bear.... If I truly believed that God would send his little blessings to us
as an indication of his will (number of children, etc.).... If I truly
believed that people are basically evil and must be saved from
themselves..... Yikes. I was raised Southern Baptist and Church of the
Nazarene and these beliefs aren't even unusual in those circles.
Julie
I wonder if you are making judgments here based on YOUR lifechoices as
opposed to someone else's. I am on a Homesteading Homeschoolers list where
people talk regularly of living in yurts with their children, or campers, or
houses made of straw bales. So while the decision may seem bizarre to you,
it may not necessarily seem odd at all to others.
So the suicide attempt was 2 years prior to the murders.......
Most people with chronic psychotic conditions tend to look like they were
"rode hard and put up wet." Mrs. Yates' appearance doesn't necessarily
indicate that her lifechoices were the problem with her appearance.
I am not an advocate for any of the Yates' family but I am not willing to
bet someone's life that we are getting the full story from the media.
I also wonder about the religious aspects of it. I am in no ways a
fundamentalist but if you look at that mindset, the Yates' lives make a lot
of sense. If I truly believed that God would not give me more than I could
bear.... If I truly believed that God would send his little blessings to us
as an indication of his will (number of children, etc.).... If I truly
believed that people are basically evil and must be saved from
themselves..... Yikes. I was raised Southern Baptist and Church of the
Nazarene and these beliefs aren't even unusual in those circles.
Julie
Lynda
She didn't make those choices and it would be hard on anyone to have all
those kids in 350 sq. ft at the most.
Which doesn't change that all of them noticed that she had problems yet none
of them actually did anything to help her. She had more than one suicide
attempt and some rather bizarre behaviors with bathtubs prior to the
drowning of the children.
As to their religion, he is a fundie and their religious "guru" is known to
be a cult leader. he has been investigated before. And, no I can't
remember his name. I'll blame it on mommy brain <g>
The thing is that all the various family members talk about how badly she
was doing yet they did nothing to help her. MIL didn't show up that morning
or those babies might not have died. AND, there is no way in H*LL that
doctor isn't big time responsible, even if you choose to think that hubby
isn't.
I pity those children because sooooo many people simply looked the other
way! I also feel sorry for her when so many cries for help went unanswered!
Lynda
those kids in 350 sq. ft at the most.
Which doesn't change that all of them noticed that she had problems yet none
of them actually did anything to help her. She had more than one suicide
attempt and some rather bizarre behaviors with bathtubs prior to the
drowning of the children.
As to their religion, he is a fundie and their religious "guru" is known to
be a cult leader. he has been investigated before. And, no I can't
remember his name. I'll blame it on mommy brain <g>
The thing is that all the various family members talk about how badly she
was doing yet they did nothing to help her. MIL didn't show up that morning
or those babies might not have died. AND, there is no way in H*LL that
doctor isn't big time responsible, even if you choose to think that hubby
isn't.
I pity those children because sooooo many people simply looked the other
way! I also feel sorry for her when so many cries for help went unanswered!
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:50 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Yates
> <<Greyhound conversion>>
>
> I wonder if you are making judgments here based on YOUR lifechoices as
> opposed to someone else's. I am on a Homesteading Homeschoolers list
where
> people talk regularly of living in yurts with their children, or campers,
or
> houses made of straw bales. So while the decision may seem bizarre to
you,
> it may not necessarily seem odd at all to others.
>
> So the suicide attempt was 2 years prior to the murders.......
>
> Most people with chronic psychotic conditions tend to look like they were
> "rode hard and put up wet." Mrs. Yates' appearance doesn't necessarily
> indicate that her lifechoices were the problem with her appearance.
>
> I am not an advocate for any of the Yates' family but I am not willing to
> bet someone's life that we are getting the full story from the media.
>
> I also wonder about the religious aspects of it. I am in no ways a
> fundamentalist but if you look at that mindset, the Yates' lives make a
lot
> of sense. If I truly believed that God would not give me more than I
could
> bear.... If I truly believed that God would send his little blessings to
us
> as an indication of his will (number of children, etc.).... If I truly
> believed that people are basically evil and must be saved from
> themselves..... Yikes. I was raised Southern Baptist and Church of the
> Nazarene and these beliefs aren't even unusual in those circles.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/28/02 10:57:21 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< I was raised Southern Baptist and Church of the
Nazarene and these beliefs aren't even unusual in those circles. >>
That's been one of my points in conversations about that situation. To her
relatives, her beliefs would not have seemed symptoms of psychosis (about the
devil and her children's souls and such), and IF those are to be symptoms of
insanity in and of themselves, there are several million people in the U.S.
who could be locked up today.
(Many of them are maintaining homeschooling sites and warning people away
from other churches which don't condemn Harry Potter, etc...)
Sandra
whose dad was Baptist
whose mom was raised by Nazarene/Pentecostal/devil-spotting holy-rollers and
who was a bigtime alcoholic
<< I was raised Southern Baptist and Church of the
Nazarene and these beliefs aren't even unusual in those circles. >>
That's been one of my points in conversations about that situation. To her
relatives, her beliefs would not have seemed symptoms of psychosis (about the
devil and her children's souls and such), and IF those are to be symptoms of
insanity in and of themselves, there are several million people in the U.S.
who could be locked up today.
(Many of them are maintaining homeschooling sites and warning people away
from other churches which don't condemn Harry Potter, etc...)
Sandra
whose dad was Baptist
whose mom was raised by Nazarene/Pentecostal/devil-spotting holy-rollers and
who was a bigtime alcoholic