Kolleen

>Elissa wrote:
>I don't agree with this statement. An original definition does not always
>apply as time goes on. I believe that an unschooler DOES NOT, require
>school work, use a math curriculum in order to learn what is "needed", have
>an idea of grade x means one learns about turtles in science, breaks down
>life into subject matter when not required to for reporting purposes, or
>believes that all children should learn how to read by x age. I believe that
>those examples are clear cut. I think it is possible to define it to an
>extent, and beyond that, debate is healthy and productive to learning.

Elissa, Nobody wrote that unschooling requires any of what you mention
above. The website I quoted from said:

"Over time, the word unschooling has come to be associated with the
approach to homeschooling that John Holt wrote about: homeschooling
without following a packaged curriculum, homeschooling that follows the
child's interests, homeschooling with an emphasis on real-life activities
rather than worksheets, homeschooling in a way that doesn't make rigid
distinctions between schoolwork and the rest of life."


And since these are your beliefs, and the term is loosely defined, why
would you jump on someone by saying this:

>>Elissa wrote:
>>If you are requiring them to write in their journals and have quiet time
>>then you are not unschooling. That's okay to do, it's just not unschooling.


You are putting your term of unschooling and judging it against others'
interpretation.

This list has been going through this cycle of someone opening their
mouth, pouring a piece of themselves out, and then getting told they
aren't following a certain guideline that doesn't exist.

>So I should stop questioning? I should stop learning?
>I should stop stating my beliefs? I can't stop picking on others becasue I
>am not picking on them.

Nobody told you to stop learning and questioning.. or even clarifying by
saying.. my idea of unschooling is *more narrowly defined terms stated
here*

But you have flat out told this woman that she isn't an unschooler by
your defintion. Not by asking her to clarify... by no other terms but
your own opinion.

Life is learning and it does cross the parenting line many times. Its not
up to any of us to decide who is unschooling and who is not by our own
definition.

>A new term. Hmmm.There are many terms that are used for this. Child led
>learning, Natural learning, Interest led, Delight driven etc. etc.etc.
>Unschooling seems to be the word in common usage so that is what I use.
>After all, I can't just decide to call a banana a gliglybop and have people
>get an idea of what I'm referring to.

If you take the DNA of a banana and alter it radically and then go and
sell the little red spherelike things as *this is a banana and everything
else is not*, then people are going to question you.

>Well, then why are we here? Aren't we here to talk about what unschooling
>means to us? What we do all day, what our children do? Because my perception
>of unschooling is narrower than another's idea of unschooling, I shouldn't
>discuss or point out a way that is different because I may hurt someones
>feelings?

You flat out told that woman she is not an unschooler. That is a far cry
from talking about... from saying what it means to us.. from pointing out
our perceptions.

Has nothing to do with hurting feelings. You stated something as fact,
that is an opinion YOU hold.

>I don't believe everyone should think like I do, that would be a
>very boring world with no differing opinions. Just consider what I have to
>say, and treat me as if maybe, just maybe I could be talking with my heart
>and offering a different viewpoint. Like I said before, give others the
>benefit of the doubt.

You most certainly did not give that woman the benefit of the doubt by
telling her right off the bat that she isn't an 'unschooler'. And
proceeded to give her advice that she apparently didn't ask for, nor
apparently need.

A clarification on what you read would of been much more helpful than a
soapbox on a certain defintion of unschooling.

kolleen,
the unschooling unparent


"People take different roads seeking
fulfillment and happiness. Just
because they're not on your road
doesn't mean they've gotten lost."
-H. Jackson Brown, Jr.

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Nobody told you to stop learning and questioning.. or even clarifying by
>saying.. my idea of unschooling is *more narrowly defined terms stated
>here*

This would be a really useful way to put it. I *do* define unschooling
more narrowly. I hate to see unschooling watered down to the point where
people see nothing wrong with saying that they unschool this or that
subject but not this and this. It's great that they are giving their kids
choices in at least some subjects. But if we're talking about unschooling,
I also like to see the basic concept of trust in there somewhere, trusting
kids to learn what *they* need to know rather than what someone else
(parent, teacher, etc) decides is important. Trusting them to balance
their life in the way they need to in order to be whole. We may know our
kids better than anyone else, but we don't know them as well as they know
themselves.

I also like to see something about knowledge not being divided up into the
little pieces you see in the school curriculum. A person's knowledge is a
whole *thing*, always unfinished, and never exactly the same as anyone
else's. Subjects are something imposed from the outside.

I'm undecided yet whether I include unparenting as part of my definition of
unschooling, but I'm sure finding that my family life gets better as I let
go more and more of the reins (sp?) And I never held them that tightly to
begin with.

I think it would help this list a lot if nobody ever said that someone else
wasn't an unschooler. If we say what we do differently and why, we'll
probably convince more people to examine what they're doing than if we tell
them they are wrong.

So how *do* the rest of you define unschooling?
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

parrishmlus

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:

> I *do* define unschooling
> more narrowly. I hate to see unschooling watered down to the point
>where people see nothing wrong with saying that they unschool this
>or that subject but not this and this. It's great that they are
>giving their kids choices in at least some subjects. But if we're
>talking about unschooling, I also like to see the basic concept of
>trust in there somewhere, trusting kids to learn what *they* need to
>know rather than what someone else (parent, teacher, etc) decides is
>important. Trusting them to balance their life in the way they need
>to in order to be whole. We may know our kids better than anyone
>else, but we don't know them as well as they know
> themselves. I also like to see something about knowledge not being
>divided up into the little pieces you see in the school curriculum.
>A person's knowledge is a whole *thing*, always unfinished, and
>never exactly the same as anyone else's. Subjects are something
>imposed from the outside.
>
> I think it would help this list a lot if nobody ever said that
>someone else wasn't an unschooler. If we say what we do differently
>and why, we'll probably convince more people to examine what they're
>doing than if we tell them they are wrong.

> So how *do* the rest of you define unschooling?
> Tia
> leschke@i...
> On Vancouver Island

I like all of this, Tia. I've been thinking about why we need the
Definitions. For me, it's about communication. When another parent at
a homeschool gathering says, "We unschool", their use of the word
implies (to me) certain things we might have in common. As the
conversation continues, and my new friend begins to talk about rules
and structure and subjects, my enthusiastic smile slips, and I see
that her definition of unschooling means something different than my
definition means. So we lose that "short cut" in communication that
The (Unschooling)Word gives us. But we don't have to stop
communicating. We may have to take our conversation *back* a few
steps, clear up some confusion that arose from my assumptions and
hers/his, but the doors are still open, neh? :)

In my life, in this kind of situation, it would be convenient if the
term were more black and white for this reason. If there were some
kind of Secret Unschoolers Handshake. ("No, you 'do math'. I can't
teach you The Handshake.")

My own unschooling ship is guided by that definition that
says, "Trust children", and, for me, that includes much more in our
lives than traditional "schooling". (This, for our family, includes
unregulated TV, Nintendo, computer, no "rules" or "requirements"
imposed from the Parental Authority on High, respect for and trust in
others, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah.:) I find it helpful,
exhilarating, to talk with others who see unschooling as I see it.
But I am really "learning to learn" from those who define *their*
unschooling differently, to ask *why* they do things a different way.
To listen to their answers. Sometimes this leads to new and
stimulating ways to think about things we do in our family. Sometimes
it reaffirms my own beliefs in what we're doing, sometimes it gets me
to think about a "better way" ... or a "different" way ... to run it
past the ol' internal compass ...

Laura

joanna514

I really like the, unschooling or not, discussion. Especially how it
spills into all aspects of life.
While I agree that it's ideal that children should be trusted and
life should be loving and harmonious. It's not always an easy thing
to achieve. I trust my children in their intelligence. I trust in
the fact that they learn what they need to know in life and they
don't need coersion to learn things and my ideas of what are good to
know are not necessarily going to be theirs(and visa versa). I'm
fine with all of that. I don't limit tv, because it is not a problem
for us, and we have a lot of fun with it, and learn quite a bit. I
played a game called Geography Quest that I got at a thrift store,
with my dd the other day and all of the stuff she knew in the trivia
part mostly came from, Animal Planet, Hey Arnold, History
Channel....I was pretty impressed with her knowledge.
I don't however trust that my children will pick up all the bits of
paper they leave after creating some paper project, or throw the
rest of the banana they don't want into the trash can, instead of
tossing it onto the floor and having it get ground in(2 yo), or
flushing the toilet every time, or wiping up the crumbs from the
sandwich they just made, or shutting the van door when they get out,
or putting away their toys when done and not completely trashing
their room before the end of the day, or getting frustrated with a
younger sibling and pushing or saying mean things, or brushing their
teeth without being asked and reminded and few times, or not getting
too rough when playing the "karate game", or not dumping water out of
the bath tub, or tracking mud into the house,.......
They're kids! They're lively and full of ideas with little regard
for what it all entails. My two boys(8 and 5) thought it was a good
idea to have a sword fight with scissors the other day. I noticed
this when they came running out of their room, one being chased by
the other who was yelling in that 'going into battle' sort of yell.
They are learning, but I can't keep up with 4 of them and not require
help. Require responsibility.
I have little doubt that if I gave up chores and expectations, that
they would pitch in here and there. I'm sure they would. They're
nice kids. But it wouldn't be daily, and with the way we live, I
need daily help.
BTW, I'm not a neat freak. There is a pleasant layer of dust and
grime here. (you know...to build up a good resistance to germs! ;-) )
Joanna (who considers herself a radical unschooler, always working
towards being a better parent)

[email protected]

Last night I was at a meeting for our unschooling resource center, and this
one dad said something that I just loved and agree with so much. . . that
young folks (and people in general) are just learning machines and if we just
get out of their way they will learn what they need. Sometimes it may take us
a lifetime to really "get" that, but it is so true.

Living in Abundance
Mary

Buttons

I can relate - I think there's a future absent-minded professor living
here! It's not that he's not thinking, it's that his head is SO full of
thoughts he doesn't have time for the mundane. I can totally relate because
as a child people would ask me "how did you get from this topic to that
one?" and I would explain that my mouth could not keep up with all the
thoughts rushing through my brain so sometimes I would "skip" a topic and
go to one I was presently thinking about. It made sense to me but I didn't
know anyone like me during my childhood. I was such a fast talker that
people would ask me to slow down and some would even ask me if I ever took
a breath LOL
My grandmother, with whom I stayed on weekends, was so very patient and
understanding - wish we would have had the option of homeschooling back
then. She did more for me on weekends than any PS teacher I had 5 days a
week.

I was a born multi-tasker, although now my energy level is WAY lower than
it ever has been before. Nowadays I can't remember why I came into a room
ROFL but I can recall like it was yesterday (ahem, 30+yrs ago) how it felt
to have a topic coming out of my mouth while another topic was running
through my mind. To me they were not "different", both were just
continuations of the original topic, one led to another led to another.
Kind of like the way we learn LOL

Buttons
--------




----- Original Message -----
From: joanna514 <Wilkinson6@...>
(snip)
> I don't however trust that my children will pick up all the bits of
> paper they leave after creating some paper project, or throw the
> rest of the banana they don't want into the trash can, instead of
> tossing it onto the floor and having it get ground in(2 yo), or
> flushing the toilet every time, or wiping up the crumbs from the
> sandwich they just made, or shutting the van door when they get out,
> or putting away their toys when done and not completely trashing
> their room before the end of the day, or getting frustrated with a
> younger sibling and pushing or saying mean things, or brushing their
> teeth without being asked and reminded and few times, or not getting
> too rough when playing the "karate game", or not dumping water out of
> the bath tub, or tracking mud into the house,.......
> They're kids! They're lively and full of ideas with little regard
> for what it all entails.
(snip)

Karin

>>>In my life, in this kind of situation, it would be convenient if the
term were more black and white for this reason. If there were some
kind of Secret Unschoolers Handshake. ("No, you 'do math'. I can't
teach you The Handshake.")>>>


LOL! Good one!

Karin




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kolleen

>So how *do* the rest of you define unschooling?
>Tia


Since MY idea of unschooling spills over into something like unparenting,
our household is run with the idea of respect at the core. And coupled
with respect, is trust.

I trust that the kid will know if he's cold or hungry. I respect his
choice to cut his own hair and not want it 'fixed' from the barber.

He is allowed to learn what he wants and knows that I will be there to
help him research more information or to purchase what he needs to pursue
that interest.

We only require that health and safety issues are followed. Health falls
under the category of whatever our homotoxicologist defines for any given
week, organic foods, and eating some greens and some protein each day
(outside of that eat what you want).

Safety falls into the scope age appropriateness. At the age of 6, he
isn't allowed to stay home by himself while I tend to errands that he
doesn't want to do. He is allowed to play however he feels he can handle
it. I trust his judgement on how high he can jump off of things, how deep
of water he can into, etc.

Some of us have defined our paradigms early in life.. and as life goes
on, it just gets expounded upon. With unschooling being as natural as it
always was. Never needing to 'learn' it, or 'accept' it, or let go of
anything else to achieve it.

Some people come upon it in other ways.. through experience.. through
awakenings.. through hitting rock bottom and having to rebuild into
something else, and our definitions might vary.

regards,
kolleen

"People take different roads seeking
fulfillment and happiness. Just
because they're not on your road
doesn't mean they've gotten lost."
-H. Jackson Brown, Jr.

Tia Leschke

>I can relate - I think there's a future absent-minded professor living
>here! It's not that he's not thinking, it's that his head is SO full of
>thoughts he doesn't have time for the mundane. I can totally relate because
>as a child people would ask me "how did you get from this topic to that
>one?" and I would explain that my mouth could not keep up with all the
>thoughts rushing through my brain so sometimes I would "skip" a topic and
>go to one I was presently thinking about.

I can sure relate to that one.



>I was a born multi-tasker, although now my energy level is WAY lower than
>it ever has been before. Nowadays I can't remember why I came into a room
>ROFL

The only thing that works for me when that happens (which is quite
frequent) is to go back to where I was when I decided I needed to go into
that room. I almost always remember then. <g>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

>
>
>In my life, in this kind of situation, it would be convenient if the
>term were more black and white for this reason. If there were some
>kind of Secret Unschoolers Handshake. ("No, you 'do math'. I can't
>teach you The Handshake.")

ROFLOL! I love it.


> I find it helpful,
>exhilarating, to talk with others who see unschooling as I see it.
>But I am really "learning to learn" from those who define *their*
>unschooling differently, to ask *why* they do things a different way.
>To listen to their answers. Sometimes this leads to new and
>stimulating ways to think about things we do in our family. Sometimes
>it reaffirms my own beliefs in what we're doing, sometimes it gets me
>to think about a "better way" ... or a "different" way ... to run it
>past the ol' internal compass ...

That's certainly why *I'm* here. These debates annoy the hell out of
me. And they also make me think. (Something the schools could never do.)
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

alaurashome

> In my life, in this kind of situation, it would be convenient if
the
> term were more black and white for this reason. If there were some
> kind of Secret Unschoolers Handshake. ("No, you 'do math'. I can't
> teach you The Handshake.")
>
> But I am really "learning to learn" from those who define *their*
> unschooling differently, to ask *why* they do things a different
way.
> To listen to their answers. Sometimes this leads to new and
> stimulating ways to think about things we do in our family.
Sometimes
> it reaffirms my own beliefs in what we're doing, sometimes it gets
me
> to think about a "better way" ... or a "different" way ... to run
it
> past the ol' internal compass ...
>
> Laura

I like your handshake comment - real cute :)

I am one of those homeschoolers that unschools with lots of books.
Even if you won't teach me the secret handshake LOL, I am glad when
you talk to me, because I am looking for a place to belong. I am
also hoping to learn from you. We would love to become more active
and less bookish. We love to hear what you do, because it inspires
and encourages us.

My children and I do not fit in with the local homeschoolers becasue
we are not as tied to curriculum as they are. I think they see our
wider thinking and tolerance as a threat to their way of life. I
think that their children give them a hard time when they find out
how my children make their own plans. I lean heavily towards
unschooling, but we really don't fit your definition either.

I totally agree with your attitude of respecting children and giving
them choices. My children choose to do some textbooks. We don't
know any unschoolers in real life so that probably has something to
do with my children's choice, but maybe not. They are both very
independent thinkers and they have definite plans for their future.
If they choose to use textbooks to prepare themselves then I feel
that I should respect and honor those choices.

Is there really any other place for us?

Alaura

Rebecca Brown

Alaura, You sound so much like me. I call people like us "eclectic schoolers". Rebecca
alaurashome <alaurashome@...> wrote: > In my life, in this kind of situation, it would be convenient if
the
> term were more black and white for this reason. If there were some
> kind of Secret Unschoolers Handshake. ("No, you 'do math'. I can't
> teach you The Handshake.")
>
> But I am really "learning to learn" from those who define *their*
> unschooling differently, to ask *why* they do things a different
way.
> To listen to their answers. Sometimes this leads to new and
> stimulating ways to think about things we do in our family.
Sometimes
> it reaffirms my own beliefs in what we're doing, sometimes it gets
me
> to think about a "better way" ... or a "different" way ... to run
it
> past the ol' internal compass ...
>
> Laura

I like your handshake comment - real cute :)

I am one of those homeschoolers that unschools with lots of books.
Even if you won't teach me the secret handshake LOL, I am glad when
you talk to me, because I am looking for a place to belong. I am
also hoping to learn from you. We would love to become more active
and less bookish. We love to hear what you do, because it inspires
and encourages us.

My children and I do not fit in with the local homeschoolers becasue
we are not as tied to curriculum as they are. I think they see our
wider thinking and tolerance as a threat to their way of life. I
think that their children give them a hard time when they find out
how my children make their own plans. I lean heavily towards
unschooling, but we really don't fit your definition either.

I totally agree with your attitude of respecting children and giving
them choices. My children choose to do some textbooks. We don't
know any unschoolers in real life so that probably has something to
do with my children's choice, but maybe not. They are both very
independent thinkers and they have definite plans for their future.
If they choose to use textbooks to prepare themselves then I feel
that I should respect and honor those choices.

Is there really any other place for us?

Alaura


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lucie Caunter

Alaura wrote:"I totally agree with your attitude of respecting children and
giving
them choices. My children choose to do some textbooks. We don't
know any unschoolers in real life so that probably has something to
do with my children's choice, but maybe not. They are both very
independent thinkers and they have definite plans for their future.
If they choose to use textbooks to prepare themselves then I feel
that I should respect and honour those choices.

Is there really any other place for us?

Alaura "

You're not alone. My older sons (15) have decided that they wanted to use
some textbooks, especially for math and science. I didn't controlled that
decision. But I did help them find the textbook they were comfortable with.
Yet textbooks is a tool, a fragmented tool, like a book of short stories. So
they constantly go outside the textbook to explore what interest them. And
there is no question of grading (degrading) or testing. I don't train them,
school them...so Perhaps We unschooled.
Lucie

Joseph Fuerst

> My children and I do not fit in with the local homeschoolers becasue
> we are not as tied to curriculum as they are. I think they see our
> wider thinking and tolerance as a threat to their way of life


I decide to take my older girls to a weekly "gym class" - though I hate that
it's called that, but it was a way for them to have some activity with
groups of other youngsters during the hours the neighor kids are in school.
the moms and 5 and under ones hang out during this time. I hoped my
children could make friends of some other children eductated form home.
(We'll see if that happens.....) At first, for me it was such a relief and
affirmation to just be around ither "homeschooling" moms....I expected none
of them unschooled. I'm sure about all but one.
Anyhow, I think you are right about it being threatening to them. I think
they have a belief that children are empty-headed and the parent's job is to
fill up that head with information and (usually) a right way of
thinking/acting. I guess this stems from the idea of "tabula rasa" (empty
slate), though I'm trying to remember/figure out the origin of this idea.
As these weekly meetings go on....I get more irritated by this schoolish
approach. I keep pretty quiet on it, but decide to be forthcoming and
honest when asked questions.
I'm tired and rambling....sorry everyone.....but I'm just feeling like I
don't fit in around here (geographically). I am grateful for e-mail......I
have found some people who challenge me to grow and with whom I seem to 'fit
in'.
Susan....wishing I knew more unschoolers "with skin on" the ones in my
area....if there are any...seem to be 'in the closet'!!

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/13/2002 8:37:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alaurashome@... writes:

<< I like your handshake comment - real cute :)

***Uh ... I'm sorry about that. I used to get points for the cute thing (in
school), but I'm trying to cut back. :)

<

Karin

<<Is there really any other place for us?

Alaura >>



I would say, hang your coat wherever you feel comfortable!
If what you read here makes you feel good, then stay.
If you disagree with what people are saying, then you may not be happy here.
Sounds to me like you are unschooling, whatever that's worth.
Welcome Alaura!

Karin



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bonni Sollars

I know what you mean by in the closet, because that is pretty much what I
am like. I don't trust local homeschool group people much, and I sort of
watch them before I share my ideals of unschooling with them. Oh well.
I would much rather be exposed as a closet unschooler than a closet
drinker.
Bonni

Lilly

I understand the feeling. When I began unschooling
last year I felt very alone and sort of outcast from
other homeschoolers. I was lucky to meet a friend (
who is like a sister now) to feel alone and outcast
with. We have decided to print a flyer one day for
unschoolers play group. Believe it or not there were
a few homeschoolers out there. I couldn't believe it.
We are not as big as the other homeschooling group,
but it is a start. We hope grow. I know your by
yourself and it is intimidating to start a group, but
you have think of it a new friend coming over. If you
get one call thats a start too! Maybe you'll find a
fabulous friend like I did.

Lilly
--- Joseph Fuerst <fuerst@...> wrote:
>
> > My children and I do not fit in with the local
> homeschoolers becasue
> > we are not as tied to curriculum as they are. I
> think they see our
> > wider thinking and tolerance as a threat to their
> way of life
>
>
> I decide to take my older girls to a weekly "gym
> class" - though I hate that
> it's called that, but it was a way for them to have
> some activity with
> groups of other youngsters during the hours the
> neighor kids are in school.
> the moms and 5 and under ones hang out during this
> time. I hoped my
> children could make friends of some other children
> eductated form home.
> (We'll see if that happens.....) At first, for me
> it was such a relief and
> affirmation to just be around ither "homeschooling"
> moms....I expected none
> of them unschooled. I'm sure about all but one.
> Anyhow, I think you are right about it being
> threatening to them. I think
> they have a belief that children are empty-headed
> and the parent's job is to
> fill up that head with information and (usually) a
> right way of
> thinking/acting. I guess this stems from the idea
> of "tabula rasa" (empty
> slate), though I'm trying to remember/figure out
> the origin of this idea.
> As these weekly meetings go on....I get more
> irritated by this schoolish
> approach. I keep pretty quiet on it, but decide to
> be forthcoming and
> honest when asked questions.
> I'm tired and rambling....sorry everyone.....but
> I'm just feeling like I
> don't fit in around here (geographically). I am
> grateful for e-mail......I
> have found some people who challenge me to grow and
> with whom I seem to 'fit
> in'.
> Susan....wishing I knew more unschoolers "with
> skin on" the ones in my
> area....if there are any...seem to be 'in the
> closet'!!
>
>
>


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Joseph Fuerst

> I know what you mean by in the closet, because that is pretty much what I
> am like. I don't trust local homeschool group people much, and I sort of
> watch them before I share my ideals of unschooling with them. Oh well.
> I would much rather be exposed as a closet unschooler than a closet
> drinker.
> Bonni
By in the closet I mean keeping the unschooling aspect to oneself, overall.
And looking for 'signals' and catch-phrases from others that indicate they
are.....more at that end of the spectrum. Hmmm....that secret handshake may
be a great idea......or perhaps we could find a pin to wear on our shirt
collar to signify our 'status'. Llike the /ChristiansCatholics used to use
the icthus, the pro lifers use the little feet, the FLYbabies use flylady
clingies(?).
Susan

Lilly

Now i have head everything!LOL closet unschoolers.
Isn't ashame what society has driven us too. I
understand why, which is the sad part. Sometimes we
have to refuse other people to push there critisim on
our way of homeschooling. John holt made that clear in
all his book. Unschooling is nautral for children to
learn.

lilly
--- Joseph Fuerst <fuerst@...> wrote:
>
> > I know what you mean by in the closet, because
> that is pretty much what I
> > am like. I don't trust local homeschool group
> people much, and I sort of
> > watch them before I share my ideals of unschooling
> with them. Oh well.
> > I would much rather be exposed as a closet
> unschooler than a closet
> > drinker.
> > Bonni
> By in the closet I mean keeping the unschooling
> aspect to oneself, overall.
> And looking for 'signals' and catch-phrases from
> others that indicate they
> are.....more at that end of the spectrum.
> Hmmm....that secret handshake may
> be a great idea......or perhaps we could find a pin
> to wear on our shirt
> collar to signify our 'status'. Llike the
> /ChristiansCatholics used to use
> the icthus, the pro lifers use the little feet,
> the FLYbabies use flylady
> clingies(?).
> Susan
>
>
>


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[email protected]

This part of a message I sent last night didn't come through (my fault).
Posting it again ...

Alaura said: I am one of those homeschoolers that unschools with lots of
books.
Even if you won't teach me the secret handshake LOL, I am glad when
you talk to me, because I am looking for a place to belong. I am
also hoping to learn from you. We would love to become more active
and less bookish. We love to hear what you do, because it inspires
and encourages us.

***A place to belong sounds nice. Our local groups do have a few unschoolers,
but (there being no identifying mark or secret handshake) I spend just as
much time conversing with the more structured homeschoolers. And they're
really nice people. We see things differently, but I've gotten more secure
about our family's choices, and don't feel that I have to counter everything
these structured homeschoolers do with how WE do it in OUR family. I mean,
for a while I was insecure, doubting our unschooling path, and needed to let
everyone know how much better my choices were than theirs. (I was obnoxious
*cringe*.) I hope I've gotten better at letting my life speak for itself.

What's that 12 step program bit about membership growing by "attraction not
promotion"?

Alaura : My children and I do not fit in with the local homeschoolers
becasue
we are not as tied to curriculum as they are. I think they see our
wider thinking and tolerance as a threat to their way of life. I
think that their children give them a hard time when they find out
how my children make their own plans. I lean heavily towards
unschooling, but we really don't fit your definition either.

*** Alaura, where are you (location, I mean)? You're on my VaEclectic list,
too, I see. Maybe we know each other! (Only at group meetings, you think that
I'm a structured school-at-homer, and I think you're a long-time homeschool
group member who has better things to do than talk to new unschooling people
... We really do need that handshake!) No, seriously, we're probably in
different parts of the state. I'm in Richmond -- or close to it.

Alaura: I totally agree with your attitude of respecting children and
giving
them choices. My children choose to do some textbooks. We don't
know any unschoolers in real life so that probably has something to
do with my children's choice, but maybe not. They are both very
independent thinkers and they have definite plans for their future.
If they choose to use textbooks to prepare themselves then I feel
that I should respect and honor those choices.

*** Well, sure!! I mean wouldn't ANY definition of "unschooler" include those
whose kids choose to use textbooks? REQUIRING kids to use textbooks (or
bookbooks) would be something not included in my personal definition of
unschooling.

Alaura: Is there really any other place for us?


***There are lots of places to find eclectic homeschoolers, unschoolers,
self-directed learners. Finding a place you feel comfortable is the trick, in
my experience. :)

Laura

Joseph Fuerst

Yes, Lilly, I've been pondering on this. Most of these HSers I've met
want to have academic groups. And the moms often fret about a)how great
they are doing because their children are in x-y-z activities, or how
anxious they are tyhat the kidlets aren't cooperating or accomplishing
enough, or what amazing curriculum materials they have. ("It tells you
exactly what to say to your child, so you don't have to figure anything
out" {how sad!})
When we move, I want to invite HSers over to play - nothing structured.
And yes, I hope to find a fabulous friend or two who has similar thoughts
on how amazing children are and how much they learn by living life in a
loving environment.
Susan....still venting
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lilly" <hazy_lilly@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling or not


> I understand the feeling. When I began unschooling
> last year I felt very alone and sort of outcast from
> other homeschoolers. I was lucky to meet a friend (
> who is like a sister now) to feel alone and outcast
> with. We have decided to print a flyer one day for
> unschoolers play group. Believe it or not there were
> a few homeschoolers out there. I couldn't believe it.
> We are not as big as the other homeschooling group,
> but it is a start. We hope grow. I know your by
> yourself and it is intimidating to start a group, but
> you have think of it a new friend coming over. If you
> get one call thats a start too! Maybe you'll find a
> fabulous friend like I did.
>
> Lilly
> --- Joseph Fuerst <fuerst@...> wrote:
> >
> > > My children and I do not fit in with the local
> > homeschoolers becasue
> > > we are not as tied to curriculum as they are. I
> > think they see our
> > > wider thinking and tolerance as a threat to their
> > way of life
> >
> >
> > I decide to take my older girls to a weekly "gym
> > class" - though I hate that
> > it's called that, but it was a way for them to have
> > some activity with
> > groups of other youngsters during the hours the
> > neighor kids are in school.
> > the moms and 5 and under ones hang out during this
> > time. I hoped my
> > children could make friends of some other children
> > eductated form home.
> > (We'll see if that happens.....) At first, for me
> > it was such a relief and
> > affirmation to just be around ither "homeschooling"
> > moms....I expected none
> > of them unschooled. I'm sure about all but one.
> > Anyhow, I think you are right about it being
> > threatening to them. I think
> > they have a belief that children are empty-headed
> > and the parent's job is to
> > fill up that head with information and (usually) a
> > right way of
> > thinking/acting. I guess this stems from the idea
> > of "tabula rasa" (empty
> > slate), though I'm trying to remember/figure out
> > the origin of this idea.
> > As these weekly meetings go on....I get more
> > irritated by this schoolish
> > approach. I keep pretty quiet on it, but decide to
> > be forthcoming and
> > honest when asked questions.
> > I'm tired and rambling....sorry everyone.....but
> > I'm just feeling like I
> > don't fit in around here (geographically). I am
> > grateful for e-mail......I
> > have found some people who challenge me to grow and
> > with whom I seem to 'fit
> > in'.
> > Susan....wishing I knew more unschoolers "with
> > skin on" the ones in my
> > area....if there are any...seem to be 'in the
> > closet'!!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Tia Leschke

>
>
>You're not alone. My older sons (15) have decided that they wanted to use
>some textbooks, especially for math and science. I didn't controlled that
>decision. But I did help them find the textbook they were comfortable with.
>Yet textbooks is a tool, a fragmented tool, like a book of short stories. So
>they constantly go outside the textbook to explore what interest them. And
>there is no question of grading (degrading) or testing. I don't train them,
>school them...so Perhaps We unschooled.

Absolutely! Fits my definition. Textbooks (and schedules and any other
kinds of structure) are a tool, like many other tools. The problem with
textbooks is in requiring them, or using them to the exclusion of any other
resources.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 03/14/2002 6:19:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> I know what you mean by in the closet, because that is pretty much what I
> am like. I don't trust local homeschool group people much, and I sort of
> watch them before I share my ideals of unschooling with them. Oh well.
> I would much rather be exposed as a closet unschooler than a closet
> drinker.
>

When we first started, our challenge in the largely Fundamentalist Christian
School at Home Community was when they discovered we were a Lesbian
Moms/Unschooling/Unitarian Universalist family.
Damn! You KNOW they were afraid Satan was just gonna swoop down and grab us!

Kathryn



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kara Bauer

When we first started, our challenge in the largely Fundamentalist Christian
School at Home Community was when they discovered we were a Lesbian
Moms/Unschooling/Unitarian Universalist family.
Damn! You KNOW they were afraid Satan was just gonna swoop down and grab us!>>

LMAO! And here I thought being Pagan, and an unschooler was going to set off some fires! LOL :)
KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joseph Fuerst

>
> When we first started, our challenge in the largely Fundamentalist
Christian
> School at Home Community was when they discovered we were a Lesbian
> Moms/Unschooling/Unitarian Universalist family.
> Damn! You KNOW they were afraid Satan was just gonna swoop down and grab
us!
>
> Kathryn
>
Kathryn,
This is hilarious!!!
Susan

Joseph Fuerst

> LMAO! And here I thought being Pagan, and an unschooler was going to set
off some fires! LOL :)
> KaraGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
Well, I'm Roman Catholic, but still think the local Catholic and Christian
Fundies are afraid I'm not careful enough with my children's souls.....after
all, we've read Hary Potter!!!! EEEEEK!!
Susan

Lee-Ann and Robert Storer

>When we first started, our challenge in the largely Fundamentalist >Christian
>School at Home Community was when they discovered we were a Lesbian
>Moms/Unschooling/Unitarian Universalist family.
>Damn! You KNOW they were afraid Satan was just gonna swoop down and grab >us!

>Kathryn


You go girl!! LOL

Lee-Ann in Australia (Harrow, Victoria actually *s*)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Oh No!! not another Catholic that's going to he-- :) Nice to know there are
others out there like me:)

> Well, I'm Roman Catholic, but still think the local Catholic and Christian
> Fundies are afraid I'm not careful enough with my children's
> souls.....after
> all, we've read Hary Potter!!!! EEEEEK!!
> Susan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 03/20/2002 12:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> No, you're not confused, he's just a confusing kid for people like us.
> With all of his medical, allergy and psychological foibles, he NEEDS
> to be secure in what is going to happen when. Any sudden change to
> his routine, really makes him weird out for a while. I hope that this
> is not a permanent thing with him. I hope that in time, given a safe
> and stable environment, he will learn to live for the moment like the
> rest of the family does and not have this need to knwo where he will
> be an hour from now and tomorrow and next week.
>
>

Absolutely that makes sense, but it still suggests that helping a child who
feels better with a predictible routine and ritual precludes unschooling.
Unschooling does NOT necessarily mean "living for the moment" for everybody.
It means learning (and maybe doing, in most cases) what one wishes for one's
own reasons.

Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]